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Old 24th February 2019, 09:50 AM   #201
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Fine. But then why does it seem like radical Islamic believers are excused if they target Danes because they can't tell which ones are and which are not, while no one else is excused if they target Muslims because they can't tell which ones are radical Islamic believers and which are not?
Because “seem” is subjective. It’s been said many times in the thread that the violent radicals are not excused. It’s just how some people read “this was the thought process, a led to b.” As an excuse. It’s not meant as one. “If you hadn’t been standing there when he dropped the piano, you wouldn’t have been hurt” is easily read as accusing you of being responsible for the harm that befell you, but it’s literally not doing that. It’s honest fact. It’s just so often said by people trying to make excuses or victim-blame that that’s how it comes accross. The thread has been over that already. It’s a difference of opinion over how to take such a statement after it’s been clarified. You insist it’s still just an excuse. You will not be convinced otherwise.
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Old 24th February 2019, 09:57 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Because “seem” is subjective. It’s been said many times in the thread that the violent radicals are not excused. It’s just how some people read “this was the thought process, a led to b.” As an excuse. It’s not meant as one. “If you hadn’t been standing there when he dropped the piano, you wouldn’t have been hurt” is easily read as accusing you of being responsible for the harm that befell you, but it’s literally not doing that. It’s honest fact.
A Nazi listens to a liberal politician's speech favouring open borders. He's so incensed he goes out and murders a black woman.

My only comment is, "If that liberal hadn't mentioned open borders that black woman would still be alive."

Now what was your argument again?
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Old 24th February 2019, 10:06 AM   #203
Lithrael
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I’d say you’re factually correct and ask if you think the public sharing of such ideas is worth the risk that an extremist might take violent offense, and what society can do about the problem of extreme violence as a reaction to offense or perceived insult in general.

IMO it’s not much different from that thing a while ago when commentators were putting crosshairs over photos of their political opponents and stuff like that there was a debate over whether that kind of thing created an unnecessary risk of encouraging violence or not. Maybe the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. Maybe it’s always yes. I think it’s a point worth debating.
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Old 24th February 2019, 10:10 AM   #204
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Quote:
You insist it’s still just an excuse.
You're right. I do.

Quote:
You will not be convinced otherwise.
Maybe, maybe not. I've been convinced before, so I'm open to arguments.

In the meantime, I'm not willing to pretend the entire Muslim community is a bunch of bunny rabbits when every once in a while one of them explodes, taking others to the grave. For me, they need to start taking active measures to distance themselves from those amongst them who believe the only good world is an Islamic world, because that is the root source of the problems.

We could stop requiring vaccinations if we eradicated disease. We could stop worrying about our inability to distinguish serial killers from church pastors if we eradicate murder, and we can stop be on guard against people of every kind if we could end the violent acts that some of them perpetrate.

But until then, I don't think it's right to reject or shun those who do not wish to put themselves in the path of danger from either measles or murder by refusing to give quarter to those they see bringing that danger to them.

We all, IMO, have the right to reject what is PC in favor of what we see with our own eyes, and what the evidence is leading us to conclude about the world around us.
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Old 24th February 2019, 10:52 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I’d say you’re factually correct and ask if you think the public sharing of such ideas is worth the risk that an extremist might take violent offense, and what society can do about the problem of extreme violence as a reaction to offense or perceived insult in general.
I know I would be factually correct, that's the whole point of the comparison. What I'm asking is what you believe my message to be. I say my message would be clear, I would be taking the side of the Nazi and blaming anybody but him for that murder.

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
IMO it’s not much different from that thing a while ago when commentators were putting crosshairs over photos of their political opponents and stuff like that there was a debate over whether that kind of thing created an unnecessary risk of encouraging violence or not. Maybe the answer is sometimes yes, sometimes no. Maybe it’s always yes. I think it’s a point worth debating.
That's very different, because you're right, there is a debate to be had around whether posting an image of someone in cross-hairs is free speech (legal) or a call to violent action (illegal).

What we're talking about in the context of this thread is free speech, nothing criminal, nothing borderline, just your every day mockery and criticism.
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Old 24th February 2019, 01:55 PM   #206
Lithrael
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Fair enough.

ETA, yes that’s what such a phrase is typically meant as, but I’m a fan of letting people clarify whether they actually intended that meaning or not.

Last edited by Lithrael; 24th February 2019 at 01:57 PM.
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Old 24th February 2019, 02:51 PM   #207
dann
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
It's calling out Dann for using the argument that SOME cannot tell who others are at a glance, but somehow he can.

I assumed that this was the mistake you made, but I wanted to be sure: Telling a Muslim terrorist from an ordinary peaceful Muslim at a glance is your fabrication, not an argument that I ever came up with. However, I think that you've probably persuaded yourself that this is something I have argued, so I have to insist that you quote me for something that says or implies what you think I say!
I can't even distinguish a probably irreligious Danish ******* from a Muslim extremist at a glance. Again, at a glance is your invention, not my argument or claim!

Quote:
This implies that he CAN distinguish who is who, so I'm asking him to share his means. If he does not, in fact, possess this ability, why is he using it as a means of putting down others?

Yes, I can distinguish between Islamic extremists and ordinary Muslims, but not at a glance. And I'm 'putting down' others for being unable to distinguish between the millions of Moroccans who deplore the killings of the two Scandinavian women and the handful of Islamic extremists who were involved with the murders. Apparently putting down is the same thing as pointing out their mistake, in your opinion. The difference is very obvious: What characterizes an ordinary peaceful Muslim? They are the ones who deplore the murders of the two Scandinavian women! What characterizes an Islamic extremist? They are the ones who killed them or applauded the killings!

However, what you are looking for is a way to determine this difference "at a glance", i.e. simply by looking at them, something that I never claimed! Is the difference between what I say and what you think I say now clear to you? And do you think that I have now put you down by pointing out your mistake?!

Let me illustrate this for you:
This is a Danish anti-Islamic extremist: Morten Storm (in the water with some intelligence agency pals.
And this is a Danish Islamic extremist (still), I think: Morten Storm (the photo to the right immediately above the headline "Morten Storm efter Tvind, Bandidos, al-Qaeda og PET: Jeg vil måske gerne være tømrer eller snedker").
I'm not quite sure what this is: Morten Storm (the photo to the left). Maybe pre-Islamist, maybe post-Islamist - I can't tell.
This one appears to be a very short time after he converted to Islam: Morten Storm.

It is very obvious that you can't tell the difference simply by looking at him. I think it's a safe bet that when they are committing acts of terror, Islamic terrorists don't usually look like Islamic terrorists. And when he became an anti-Islamic spy for Western intelligence agencies he would, of course, still dress the way an Islamic extremist is supposed to do when he is not about to commit an act of terror.

And how do you distinguish between white people and white supremacists? It's very obvious: You find out what characterizes white supremacists, and those who live up to the definition are white supremacists.
Is it something that you can tell "at a glance"?
No, of course it isn't. If they are wearing KKK hoods and robes, it's a good guess that they are white supremacists, but they may also be FBI agents under cover as KKK members.
And nowadays white supremacists appear to prefer khakis, polos and Tiki torches to hoods and robes and tend to refrain from Sieg Heils in public ...

By the way, how do white supremacists themselves distinguish white supremacists from ordinary white people? They find it extremely difficult even though it's bloody simple. And it becomes even more difficult for them when they have to distinguish between white supremacists and the 'mongrels' whose grandparents or great grandparents weren't as racist as they are: How white supremacists respond when their DNA says they’re not ‘white’.
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Old 24th February 2019, 02:56 PM   #208
dann
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
We all, IMO, have the right to reject what is PC in favor of what we see with our own eyes, and what the evidence is leading us to conclude about the world around us.

OK, so now it's up to you to tell us what you see when you look at Morten Storm - as an Islamic extremist, as a pre-Islamic extremist (he was actually pretty extreme when he was still a member of the Bandidos, but obviously not a Muslim one!) and as a post-Islamic extremist secret agent for the CIA and the Danish intelligence agency.
I look forward to hearing about what you see with your own eyes and what the evidence leads you to conclude.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th February 2019, 03:17 PM   #209
dann
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
You've said:

Nothing "now" about it; I've asked the same question both times.

No, I didn't! Look at your first post again! It was very ambiguous which distinction you were asking about. You seem to think that the one you were thinking of was obvious. It wasn't!

Quote:
You've claimed to know how to distinguish an "ordinary" Dane from a stupid ***** at Jyllands-Posten.

Yes, some of them are editors at Jyllands-Posten, some (= most of them/us) aren't! It's as simple as that!

Quote:
But apparently (radical? ordinary? all?) Muslims cannot tell the difference, so they target Danes now.

Of course, they can. If they want to. But they want to as little as you want to distinguish between Islamic extremists and ordinary peaceful Muslims. Not because you can't but because you won't.


Quote:
You're also implying you're somehow able to distinguish ordinary Muslims from Islamic extremists, and sneering at those who do not have this power of discrimination.

Oh that sneering! How can you tell that I'm sneering? Are you sure it's not a question of offending the snowflake sentiments of the white supremacists who seem to be flourishing here lately?

Quote:
So, I'm asking: how do you tell the difference? What are the tattletale signs a Dane is from Jyllands-Posten? What is the giveaway a Muslim is an Islamic extremist likely to plan and/or commit violent acts?

Where did claim that there were "tattletale signs" that somebody is from Jyllands-Posten? You don't usually need signs, but they tend to identify themselves as such, and other Danes say what their occupation is if it's relevant. That editors or even ordinary employees of Jyllands-Posten probably don't travel with a Jyllands-Posten bag pack if they're headed for the Middle East is pretty obvious, but then again: You are the one who desire "tattletale signs", I'm not.
And when you require a "giveaway" that "a Muslim is an Islamic extremely likely to plan and/or commit violent acts?" I guess that this is your at-a-glance idea again, isn't it?!

Quote:
Are you also able to tell which Muslim families will choose to radicalize their children to take the place of those Islam extremists who are killed in their Holy battles?

Yes, I have a magic wand that makes me omniscient!
(We need a new meme: This is your brain! This is your brain on racism!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 24th February 2019, 05:22 PM   #210
Lithrael
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I want to be treated as an individual rather than as a member of any group I belong to as a default rather than as a choice. I see that as a basic unit of modern common courtesy. I could just as easily have been born a Moroccan Muslim and if I had I would not want to be ostracized and feared because of the violence and hatred of Muslim extremists. I would not want to know when I denounced violence like the subject of the OP, that people like Baylor, baron would disbelieve or discount me, people like dragonlady would say I haven’t done enough to distance myself from the extremists and so they think that looking at me and seeing a potential murderer is still just common sense.

I think Islam has a lot of serious problems but I don’t think treating all of its adherents like they’re significantly more dangerous than any other human being is at all useful or fair. The fact it’s difficult to figure out which ones are actually dangerous, doesn’t mean it’s a good strategy to give up and roll them all into the same ball just to be sure.

Last edited by Lithrael; 24th February 2019 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 24th February 2019, 07:49 PM   #211
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This whole side convo about Jyllands-Posten seems pointless. These are people that cut these women's head off. There is no way a Danish flag or lack of that publications slight that these people were going to not commit the act when given the opportunity.

Fanatics don't change their ways due to something as small as those they are targeting not being as bad as some of the others. They kill indiscriminately. For people like this, you would have been a target regardless.
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Old 24th February 2019, 07:49 PM   #212
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
(We need a new meme: This is your brain! This is your brain on racism!)
This is your brain. This is your brain on diversity.

Rule 2 override: *Links to the image of 2 beheaded European girls.*
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Old 24th February 2019, 07:55 PM   #213
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This whole side convo about Jyllands-Posten seems pointless.
It definitely has a point. For terrorists apologists to convince parents that their children's safety and quality of life will not suffer as a result of a large Muslim population.

Last edited by Baylor; 24th February 2019 at 07:57 PM.
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Old 24th February 2019, 11:23 PM   #214
Delphic Oracle
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I want to be treated as an individual rather than as a member of any group I belong to as a default rather than as a choice. I see that as a basic unit of modern common courtesy. I could just as easily have been born a Moroccan Muslim and if I had I would not want to be ostracized and feared because of the violence and hatred of Muslim extremists. I would not want to know when I denounced violence like the subject of the OP, that people like Baylor, baron would disbelieve or discount me, people like dragonlady would say I haven’t done enough to distance myself from the extremists and so they think that looking at me and seeing a potential murderer is still just common sense.

I think Islam has a lot of serious problems but I don’t think treating all of its adherents like they’re significantly more dangerous than any other human being is at all useful or fair. The fact it’s difficult to figure out which ones are actually dangerous, doesn’t mean it’s a good strategy to give up and roll them all into the same ball just to be sure.
In fact, if anything, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and why the "home-grown terrorist" model became more prevalent than the "sleeper cell" model.

If you suddenly subject people who felt themselves a part of a community with hostility and suspicion, rejected, isolated, harassed, abused, etc. They are that much more vulnerable to recruiting with a narrative that starts out explaining why they are different, where they can find support and comfort, and then slowly turns over to how to find retribution for the betrayal.

There's no more clear example than Al-Awlaki. He went from fierce denunciation of militant Islamic rationalizations for 9/11 to totally consumed by hate in less than a decade. He was one of the most recognized figures in the English-speaking Islamic world, profiled by 60 Minutes, a relatable suburban family man, son of a civil bureaucrat, educated, articulate, the "Moderate Imam", to the number 1 most wanted man on the planet.

Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 24th February 2019 at 11:31 PM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:15 AM   #215
dann
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
This is your brain. This is your brain on diversity.

Rule 2 override: *Links to the image of 2 beheaded daft, naïve European girls.*

FTFY! You're slipping! You forget that your point with this thread was victim blaming!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:33 AM   #216
dann
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
In fact, if anything, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and why the "home-grown terrorist" model became more prevalent than the "sleeper cell" model.

If you suddenly subject people who felt themselves a part of a community with hostility and suspicion, rejected, isolated, harassed, abused, etc. They are that much more vulnerable to recruiting with a narrative that starts out explaining why they are different, where they can find support and comfort, and then slowly turns over to how to find retribution for the betrayal.

There's no more clear example than Al-Awlaki. He went from fierce denunciation of militant Islamic rationalizations for 9/11 to totally consumed by hate in less than a decade. He was one of the most recognized figures in the English-speaking Islamic world, profiled by 60 Minutes, a relatable suburban family man, son of a civil bureaucrat, educated, articulate, the "Moderate Imam", to the number 1 most wanted man on the planet.

You're absolutely right - except for the "suddenly". Continuously works even better!
That's how nationalism works, and the Danes could have learned from their experience with minorities on both side of the Danish-German border: The Danish minority in Schleswig-Holstein and the German minority in Southern Jutland have all but disappeared because they were protected from persecution on both sides of the border. The members of German families that I know in South Jutland have married Danes and more or less stopped speaking German. Their children are no better at German than the children of other ordinary Danes.
Similarly, the children of Turks who came to Denmark in the early 1970s tend to become cultural Muslims and forget the language of their parents.
But, of course, this is exactly what avid racists fear the most. And this is why it's so wonderful when the same racists discover how much 'unsure' blood runs in their veins.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:45 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
FTFY! You're slipping! You forget that your point with this thread was victim blaming!
Thanks for clearing that up

But if you read the OP, you'd see I put the blame - aside from the terrorist killers of course - on the brainwashing campaign the media put these girls through.
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Old 25th February 2019, 12:58 AM   #218
dann
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
This whole side convo about Jyllands-Posten seems pointless. These are people that cut these women's head off. There is no way a Danish flag or lack of that publications slight that these people were going to not commit the act when given the opportunity.

No, no way at all:

Quote:
The story of what happened next is well-known. On Feb. 4, 2006, the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Syria were set alight amid protests against the cartoons. A mob burned down the Danish embassy in Lebanon a day later.
Did the Terrorists Win in Denmark? (FP)

It almost goes without saying that the he coward who published the Muhammed drawings still pretends to be a freedom fighter even though he would never do anything to upset the (cultural) Christian minority in Denmark and went after the Muslims merely because he expected it to serve his own interests at at the time. This was the actual 'freedom fighter' part of the story:

Quote:
Jyllands-Posten editors decided on the cartoon project as a demonstration of free speech after hearing that Danish writer Kåre Bluitgen hadn’t been able to find an illustrator for his children’s book about Muhammad. The assumption was that illustrators feared they’d face reprisals if they drew the Prophet. But Bluitgen’s inability to find a collaborator might have been due to his less-than-stellar reputation: A few years earlier, Bluitgen had suggested people should hold a demonstration in which they splashed the Quran with menstrual blood.The Danish Cartoon Crisis of 2005 and 2006: 10 Things You Didn’t Know About the Original Muhammad Controvers (HuffPost)

And some of the cartoonist knew about this and knew about the real purpose of Jyllands-Posten's stunt, of course. I've already told you about this, but here you'll find more details:

Quote:
One cartoon, by liberal illustrator Lars Refn, made fun of Jyllands-Posten and its notoriously far-right politics. As requested, Refn drew Muhammad as he saw him, but not Muhammad the Prophet. Instead he drew Muhammad, a seventh-grade boy from a local school district, dressed in the jersey of a nearby soccer club known for its diversity and socialist leanings. In the picture, “Muhammad” has written on a blackboard, “The board of direction of Jyllands-Posten are a bunch of right-wing extremists.”

The subtitles in Refn’s cartoon were lost in the ensuing controversy, however, and like several of his colleagues, he briefly had to take his family into hiding. As Refn told us when we met him earlier this year, “If I had known a billion people would see this, I would have made a better drawing.”The Danish Cartoon Crisis of 2005 and 2006: 10 Things You Didn’t Know About the Original Muhammad Controvers (HuffPost)

These are some of the things that racists abroad don't know and that racists in Denmark don't want to know. (Of course, racists abroad also don't want to know them.)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:00 AM   #219
dann
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Thanks for clearing that up

But if you read the OP, you'd see I put the blame - aside from the terrorist killers of course - on the brainwashing campaign the media put these girls through.

You're right. Jyllands-Posten tried to put the girls through a brainwashing campaign, but fortunately it didn't seem to stick - with the two girls or with the majority of Danes.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:10 AM   #220
Vixen
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
and you get beheaded.

As was the case for two young ladies traveling together, Maren Ueland of Norway and Louisa Vesterager Jespersen of Denmark. The girls were "chasing experiences" in Morocco according to Louisa's mother.

Before the killings, one of the murderers had sworn allegiance to ISIS, stating,"keep fighting the enemies of Allah, wherever you are, you have no excuse and, be informed that we are your supporters... you have allies among us."

Meanwhile, in la la land (formerly known as Europe) one of the girls posted a idiotic and poorly directed pro-muslim video with a message of "not to judge people by their appearances." (that worked out well for them.)

https://www.moroccoworldnews.com/201...before-murder/


I've noted earlier Europeans have started experiencing religious euphoria over showing how "not racist" they are. These two girls died in their quest for religious euphoria. The makers of that poorly directed video have blood on their hands as far as I'm concerned. What kind of nonsense are young people being programmed with in Western Europe? It's wonderful when a white person commits a drug related offense but not a Muslim. This is suppose to be heart-warming? Who comes up with this stuff?

You can view video of the beheadings online for those so inclined. It's gruesome. Not as gruesome as a man being told to leave a yogurt shop, but still gruesome.
People are attracted to Morrocco's stunning scenery. For example, the fabulous Atlas mountains. Those poor girls were brutally and wrongfully murdered.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:12 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Because something bad also happened somewhere in the world, we will continue to indulge ourselves like drug addicts in this religious hysteria by showing how "not racist" we are.

It's not like I didn't see that coming from a mile away.
Most young Scandinavians are still not racist.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:12 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You're right. Jyllands-Posten tried to put the girls through a brainwashing campaign, but fortunately it didn't seem to stick - with the two girls or with the majority of Danes.
Very cruel. They'd still have their heads attached if it did.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:22 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Exactly.

Muslims don't go around professing how "not racist" they are. It's only the conditioned and brainwashed white people. They've been taught to "not care about race." But what they weren't taught is race cares about them. These girls were targeted for their race and they didn't take the necessary precautions because of the conditioning of the Western media. That's a massive betrayal. It's high time to stop trusting western media.
Two logical fallacies here:

1. There is no such thing as 'white race' but you want ppl to take it as a given.


2. There is no such thing as a counter Muslim race (ditto).
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:29 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That beheaded Norwegian girl sure thought it was. And if she had been racist, she'd still be alive.
Oh dear. She more likely thought she was going camping in the Atlas mountains.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:35 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear. She more likely thought she was going camping in the Atlas mountains.
She shared that horrendous video. Please keep up I don't have the stamina to reply to every dumb comment.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:39 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
Sigh. Before the mods nuke yet another one of my threads I'll do you this one favor and explain it for you.

Cognitive dissonance is when one's attitude is incongruent with one's behavior. I'll give you an example pertinent to this thread.

Imagine someone has negative attitudes about Muslims. (understandable). How would you change her negative attitude to a positive one? You change her behavior. You get her--usually through positive reinforcement--to praise Islam and say how it is "the religion of peace." You reward her for that behavior, use negative reinforcement or punishment if her attitude is not conducive with positive appraisal of Muslims. Because her behavior is incongruent with her attitude, she will experience cognitive dissonance. Her attitudes will then shift with her behavior. She will then have positive attitudes about Muslims and share poorly directed pro-Muslim videos on facebook.

To change someone's attitude, you have to change her behavior--not the other way around. And that's where the term "brainwashing" comes from.

Two incongruent thoughts is not the proper definition of "cognitive dissonance." Thinking two incompatible thoughts is normal human cognition.
Now as someone familiar with the term and a native English speaker, please stop.

No. Cognitive dissonance is something that arouses conflicting emotions in a person. For example, enjoying smoking but being unhappy there is a high chance it will cause lung cancer.

Sure, cognitive dissonance can lead to a change in behaviour but the change itself isn't cognitive disonnance nor is artificially creating cognitive dissonance to change behaviour.

Clear now?
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:42 AM   #227
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No, you're not clear.
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Old 25th February 2019, 01:51 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
I put less stock in that horrendous video. Even the "not racist" Danish person hasn't tried to defend whatever the hell that thing was. I'm still trying to make sense out of it. It's wonderful when a white man commits a drug crime because everyone expected a Muslim to get busted. What? That seems offensive to both Muslims and white people. The American equivalent would be a commercial where a white man gets busted for robbing a liquor store and it's wonderful that a woman watched it because she thought only black people rob liquor stores. Jaws would be on the floor if a commercial like that aired in America. My only explanation is this is the new religious craze in Scandinavia. If you want to make sense out of that train wreck, I'm all ears.
I am on parallel 61. The local 500-year old church had a 'Soul Mass' on Sunday going through a whole range of gospel songs (Swing Low, Michael Rowed, Amazing Grace, Go Tell it, He's Got the Whole) in the native tongue.* The airport was full of the natives flying off to Las Palmas and warmer climes. So they are all desperately shouting, 'We're not racist!' and likely to end up raped and murdered by such scandalous behaviours and attitides.

*Bloody hell! By the end, some of the congregation began to move a muscle and ended up clapping along! The end of western civilisation.
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Old 25th February 2019, 02:07 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
So cowardice is part of Danish culture.

And there's that religious euphoria I was talking about.
I don't know where people get the idea Scandinavians are nice people.

They are not.

They are pretty horrible.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:45 AM   #230
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Yes, Scandinavians are all alike and they are all horrible. Like Muslims, I guess, who are also all alike to racists.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:47 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
In fact, if anything, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and why the "home-grown terrorist" model became more prevalent than the "sleeper cell" model.

If you suddenly subject people who felt themselves a part of a community with hostility and suspicion, rejected, isolated, harassed, abused, etc. They are that much more vulnerable to recruiting with a narrative that starts out explaining why they are different, where they can find support and comfort, and then slowly turns over to how to find retribution for the betrayal.

There's no more clear example than Al-Awlaki. He went from fierce denunciation of militant Islamic rationalizations for 9/11 to totally consumed by hate in less than a decade. He was one of the most recognized figures in the English-speaking Islamic world, profiled by 60 Minutes, a relatable suburban family man, son of a civil bureaucrat, educated, articulate, the "Moderate Imam", to the number 1 most wanted man on the planet.
Yep, you wouldn't want to tar a huge group of people with the same brush. Just imagine if you did that with, say, Trump voters. Imagine the bigotry, violence and terrorism that you would cause.
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:49 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That seems offensive to both Muslims and white people.

Breaking News!!!
A lot of Muslims are actually white people, but racists seem to be incapable of distinguishing not only between Muslims and Islamic extremists, but also between religion and race!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 03:53 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
So they are all desperately shouting, 'We're not racist!' and likely to end up raped and murdered by such scandalous behaviours and attitides.

So if you're not an anti-Muslim you're likely (!!!) to end up raped and murdered.
(Anders Behring Brevik killed 77 young people because they weren't anti-Muslim, so it seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you're not anti-Muslim, white supremacists want to kill you!)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 25th February 2019 at 03:54 AM.
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:01 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
No. Cognitive dissonance is something that arouses conflicting emotions in a person. For example, enjoying smoking but being unhappy there is a high chance it will cause lung cancer.

Sure, cognitive dissonance can lead to a change in behaviour but the change itself isn't cognitive disonnance nor is artificially creating cognitive dissonance to change behaviour.

That's not cognitive dissonance. Only if your joy of smoking makes you buy into the propaganda of tobacco companies that smoking doesn't damage your health and you are then confronted with the truth that smoking causes cancer, which you don't want to believe.
If you enjoy smoking and continue to smoke without being in denial about the dangers of smoking, then there's no cognitive dissonance. And if you stop smoking because you find out that tobacco causes cancer, there's also no cognitive dissonance.

Clear now?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:08 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
That beheaded Norwegian girl sure thought it was. And if she had been racist, she'd still be alive.

The young woman was one of the Norwegian anti-racists who weren't killed by Anders Behring Breivik, and in spite of being aware of the danger of white supremacists, she was brave enough to confront them.
The only thing that consoles me a little in this tragedy is that the millions of Moroccan Muslims got to know the story of the brave woman killed by the extremists, which probably contributed to their consternation.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:08 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, Scandinavians are all alike and they are all horrible. Like Muslims, I guess, who are also all alike to racists.
It was more a comment on the plethora of self-help books on the market, which seems to reflect society's perception of nordic countries as ideal. For example,The Nordic Theory of Everything, You, too, can get Danish HYGGE, How to be happy like the Danes/ Finns/ Icelanders/ Norwegians /Swedes, etc (delete as appropriate).

But not so long ago you had Quisling in Norway, enforced sterilisation in Sweden and Finland, castration of homosexuals up to 1963 in Finland, high suicide rates, Norwegian-German Nazi 'mixed race/nationality' post-war babies dumped in orphanages, people executed by axe in Finland and Sweden as late as the 1920's, etc., etc.

Baylor's belief Danes are a bunch of laidback liberals is based on a trite stereotype, as is her view of Muslims.
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:13 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So if you're not an anti-Muslim you're likely (!!!) to end up raped and murdered.
(Anders Behring Brevik killed 77 young people because they weren't anti-Muslim, so it seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy: If you're not anti-Muslim, white supremacists want to kill you!)
Er, I was being tongue-in-cheek.
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:14 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Oh dear. She more likely thought she was going camping in the Atlas mountains.

I think that Baylor's point is that if she'd been a racist, she would never have left Scandinavia to go anywhere in the rest of the world. She could then have stayed biassed and ignorant, and white supremacists wouldn't have tried to kill her.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:15 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That's not cognitive dissonance. Only if your joy of smoking makes you buy into the propaganda of tobacco companies that smoking doesn't damage your health and you are then confronted with the truth that smoking causes cancer, which you don't want to believe.
If you enjoy smoking and continue to smoke without being in denial about the dangers of smoking, then there's no cognitive dissonance. And if you stop smoking because you find out that tobacco causes cancer, there's also no cognitive dissonance.

Clear now?

I passed the psychology exam. I can quote the names behind the theory.
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Old 25th February 2019, 04:16 AM   #240
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Can we all agree if they were wearing Maga hats this would have been totally justified?
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