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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:40 AM   #1
Squeegee Beckenheim
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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez & Bernie Sanders are the true centrists

At least according to this article

Quote:
DON’T BELIEVE ME? Take Ocasio-Cortez’s signature issue: the Green New Deal. Former George W. Bush speechwriter — and torture advocate — Marc Thiessen claims that the Green New Deal will “make the Democrats unelectable in 2020.” The Economist agrees: “The bold plan could make the party unelectable in conservative-leaning states.” The Green New Deal “will not pass the Senate, and you can take that back to whoever sent you here and tell them,” a testy Diane Feinstein, the senior and supposedly “moderate” Democratic senator from California, told a bunch of kids in a viral video.

But here is the reality: The Green New Deal is extremely popular and has massive bipartisan support. A recent survey from the Yale Program on Climate Change Communication and George Mason University found that a whopping 81 percent of voters said they either “strongly support” (40 percent) or “somewhat support” (41 percent) the Green New Deal, including 64 percent of Republicans (and even 57 percent of conservative Republicans).

What else do Ocasio-Cortez, Warren, and Sanders have in common with each other — and with the voters? They want to soak the rich. Ocasio-Cortez suggested a 70 percent marginal tax rate on incomes above $10 million — condemned by “centrist” Schultz as “un-American” but backed by a majority (51 percent) of Americans. Warren proposed a 2 percent wealth tax on assets above $50 million — slammed by “moderate” Bloomberg as Venezuelan-style socialism, but supported by 61 percent of voters, including 51 percent of Republicans. (As my colleague Jon Schwarz has demonstrated, “Americans have never, in living memory, been averse to higher taxes on the rich.”)
I've only quoted the first two policies discussed, but there are 8 more in the article.

I find this interesting because, being British myself, it's always been the case for me that most left-wing politicians in the US would be thought of as right-wing here in the UK (although the political landscape here has shifted right over the last few decades). If this article is accurate, then it suggests that there may be less disconnect between the UK population and the US population, and that it's just the politicians themselves who are that far apart.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 09:40 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
At least according to this article



I've only quoted the first two policies discussed, but there are 8 more in the article.

I find this interesting because, being British myself, it's always been the case for me that most left-wing politicians in the US would be thought of as right-wing here in the UK (although the political landscape here has shifted right over the last few decades). If this article is accurate, then it suggests that there may be less disconnect between the UK population and the US population, and that it's just the politicians themselves who are that far apart.
The scale has shifted to the right dramatically in recent decades. Someone now considered a radical leftist would have been a mainstream, Hubert Humphrey liberal 40 years ago. R. Nixon proposed universal health insurance and explored a national minimum income. He created the EPA and expanded social services. When he left office the top marginal income tax rate was 70 percent. A large percentage of working Americans used to belong to labor unions that negotiated fair wages, benefits and pensions. Corporate executives were well-paid, but they didn't make 400 times the salaries of line workers. Etc., etc.

There's nothing extreme about anything Sanders, Warren etc. are proposing.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:25 AM   #3
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Widespread support does not make them centrist.

It means the population on those issues leans left.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:27 AM   #4
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Is Centrism a variety of Marxism? That's what they seem to be talking about. I don't believe in God but if I did I'd pray that these people never gain any more power than they already have.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Is Centrism a variety of Marxism? That's what they seem to be talking about. I don't believe in God but if I did I'd pray that these people never gain any more power than they already have.
Yeah, Social Security and Medicare are all the "Marxism" that the "I've got mine" crowd can stand.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
I find this interesting because, being British myself, it's always been the case for me that most left-wing politicians in the US would be thought of as right-wing here in the UK (although the political landscape here has shifted right over the last few decades). If this article is accurate, then it suggests that there may be less disconnect between the UK population and the US population, and that it's just the politicians themselves who are that far apart.

In Scandinavia Bernie Sanders and AOC would probably be considered to be Social Democrats. And I fear that, like Social Democrats, they will immediately find excuses for not following up on their alleged policies as soon as they come into some kind of power ...
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:32 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Is Centrism a variety of Marxism? That's what they seem to be talking about.

Marxism?!! You haven't actually read any Marx, have you?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:51 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The scale has shifted to the right dramatically in recent decades.
As a country becomes more "diverse," trust and social cohesion break down and people become atomized individuals. Policies that benefit one ethnic group at the detriment of another are not popular. Johnny English isn't going to be happy he has to wait three months to get his rectal polyps looked at because Mohammad and his seven kids are a higher priority.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...health-service
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Old 2nd March 2019, 12:58 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As a country becomes more "diverse," trust and social cohesion break down and people become atomized individuals. Policies that benefit one ethnic group at the detriment of another are not popular. Johnny English isn't going to be happy he has to wait three months to get his rectal polyps looked at because Mohammad and his seven kids are a higher equal priority.
Corrected.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:12 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As a country becomes more "diverse," trust and social cohesion break down and people become atomized individuals. Policies that benefit one ethnic group at the detriment of another are not popular. Johnny English isn't going to be happy he has to wait three months to get his rectal polyps looked at because Mohammad and his seven kids are a higher priority.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...health-service
You haven't read or understood that commentary at all, have you. Yes, The UK NHS has problems. But remember two things: First, even in its current parlous state it provides better medical services than most US citizens get. And second, it is having major issues precisely because the powers that be in the UK have been trying to change it to the US model of user-pays. And the further they go towards that, the worse the NHS becomes. Because it doesn't work.

The writer of the commentary was arguing for increased spending on NHS health care. Or at least restoration of previous levels. But I suspect that point slipped your understanding too.

So this is actually a good example of how to do things wrong by following the US example. But you cheer for yours.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 01:15 PM   #11
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Yeahbut there are good people on both sides. Except Trump, he is not good people.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 02:47 PM   #12
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"Soak the rich."

LOLOL

Yeah.... right.

Frankly, I don't think that taxes should be that high either, necessarily. But the massive wealth redistribution that happens under capitalism has to have some offset if one wishes to keep capitalism.

This is just another piece of evidence that the system itself of capitalism is deeply flawed, inherently unfair and has caused untold suffering and misery across the planet for the majority of humanity.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 03:26 PM   #13
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Soak the rich."

LOLOL

Yeah.... right.

Frankly, I don't think that taxes should be that high either, necessarily. But the massive wealth redistribution that happens under capitalism has to have some offset if one wishes to keep capitalism.

This is just another piece of evidence that the system itself of capitalism is deeply flawed,
Another piece of evidence? I must have missed the first one.

Quote:
inherently unfair and has caused untold suffering and misery across the planet for the majority of humanity.
I'd love to hear you flesh this out a bit.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 04:36 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Is Centrism a variety of Marxism? That's what they seem to be talking about. I don't believe in God but if I did I'd pray that these people never gain any more power than they already have.
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Marxism?!! You haven't actually read any Marx, have you?
To be fair, "centrism" might look a lot like "Marxism" to those sufficiently on the right of US Politics (Meadows, Geitz, Gosar, Jordan etc... members of the so-called "Freedom Caucus") at least you could be led to think that if you watched much of the complete BS being expounded at the CPAC this week.... “They want to take your pickup truck. They want to rebuild your home. They want to take away your hamburgers,” - Sebastian Gorka (another raving right wing nut job)
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Old 2nd March 2019, 04:49 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You haven't read or understood that commentary at all, have you. Yes, The UK NHS has problems. But remember two things: First, even in its current parlous state it provides better medical services than most US citizens get. And second, it is having major issues precisely because the powers that be in the UK have been trying to change it to the US model of user-pays. And the further they go towards that, the worse the NHS becomes. Because it doesn't work.
....

Here's one guy's account of his horrendous experience with socialized medicine:
Quote:
Around 3 a.m., he decided it was time to go to the hospital for treatment, not knowing what to expect having never been to a hospital in Taiwan — a country that has a national health-care system, or as Bozeat wrote, “socialized medicine."

He was checked in and given IV fluids within 20 minutes of his arrival. Phlebotomists drew blood and the lab ran tests on it. Hospital techs performed an ultrasound to make sure he didn’t have gallstones or appendicitis. And eventually they diagnosed stomach flu, gave him two prescriptions and discharged him.

“Each day since I’ve gotten progressively better and am now pretty much back to normal,” Bozeat wrote. “The bill for the ER visit? . . . US $80.00.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/healt...=.e2548c1ece2e
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You haven't read or understood that commentary at all, have you.
I'm going to start compiling all these ghrblah you no understand i win!!!! posts, just to see how exhausting it can be to be on this forum. (Check out my most recent post before this one)
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
"Soak the rich."

LOLOL

Yeah.... right.

Frankly, I don't think that taxes should be that high either, necessarily. But the massive wealth redistribution that happens under capitalism has to have some offset if one wishes to keep capitalism.

This is just another piece of evidence that the system itself of capitalism is deeply flawed, inherently unfair and has caused untold suffering and misery across the planet for the majority of humanity.
Capitalism only truly works for Society as a whole, when sufficient numbers of those who become wealthy are also humanitarians and return some of the benefits of their skills at making money... people like Dietmar Hopp, George Kaiser, Bill and Melinda Gates, Eli Broad, Pierre Omidar, Jim Simons, Ted Turner, Michael Bloomberg, Azim Premji, Warren Buffet and even Elon Musk and Jezz Bezos to a lesser extent (to name but a few).

Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and if all capitalists were like Trump, the world would be a destitute place!
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:16 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Capitalism only truly works for Society as a whole, when sufficient numbers of those who become wealthy are also humanitarians and return some of the benefits of their skills at making money... people like Dietmar Hopp, George Kaiser, Bill and Melinda Gates, Eli Broad, Pierre Omidar, Jim Simons, Ted Turner, Michael Bloomberg, Azim Premji, Warren Buffet and even Elon Musk and Jezz Bezos to a lesser extent (to name but a few).

Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and if all capitalists were like Trump, the world would be a destitute place!
The natural state of man is abject poverty. So a wealthy person is not depriving or worsening others.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Capitalism only truly works for Society as a whole, when sufficient numbers of those who become wealthy are also humanitarians and return some of the benefits of their skills at making money... people like Dietmar Hopp, George Kaiser, Bill and Melinda Gates, Eli Broad, Pierre Omidar, Jim Simons, Ted Turner, Michael Bloomberg, Azim Premji, Warren Buffet and even Elon Musk and Jezz Bezos to a lesser extent (to name but a few).

Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and if all capitalists were like Trump, the world would be a destitute place!
I think capitalism would work quite well if the lowest on the ladder were still able to live decent lives and afford the necessities. I don't mind if some people are eating off gold plates aboard their emerald-studded yachts floating in the pools inside their hover-mansions provided everybody else can afford at least normal plates and food and not die of preventable diseases because they don't have healthcare. There's nothing wrong with excess at the top so long as there's adequacy at the bottom, but that's not what we have now.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:44 PM   #20
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I've been saying for a while now that what's called "centrist" in the US is anything but moderate. Letting tens of thousands of citizens die a year from lack of healthcare is not "moderate". It's radical and extreme. This distribution of wealth is not "moderate". It might be normal in the US, but there's nothing moderate about it.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:50 PM   #21
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
I've been saying for a while now that what's called "centrist" in the US is anything but moderate. Letting tens of thousands of citizens die a year from lack of healthcare is not "moderate". It's radical and extreme. This distribution of wealth is not "moderate". It might be normal in the US, but there's nothing moderate about it.
How do you know those things are not moderate?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:51 PM   #22
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This is not a "moderate" way to run a society:

Quote:
Living on $2 a day: Exploring extreme poverty in America
Quote:
...there are nearly 1.5 million American households with practically no cash income.

That figure has been on the rise, nearly doubling since 1996
That ain't moderate.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know those things are not moderate?
It's the outlier among developed nations. Our land is the only place this happens in all of the developed world.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:55 PM   #24
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
This is not a "moderate" way to run a society:





That ain't moderate.
How do you know?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:57 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
It's the outlier among developed nations. Our land is the only place this happens in all of the developed world.
Okay. I thought you meant moderate as a normative position. If you just mean outlier, then sure. Every country is an outlier on some dimension.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 05:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
How do you know?
Libertarianism has disqualified itself from having a seat at the table in this discussion. I'm not taking your bait. I'll discuss "how does anyone ever know anything" with you in the religion subforum if you want.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:01 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Libertarianism has disqualified itself from having a seat at the table in this discussion. I'm not taking your bait. I'll discuss "how does anyone ever know anything" with you in the religion subforum if you want.
I didnt ask if if anyone knows anything. I asked how you know something you claimed.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:17 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Capitalism only truly works for Society as a whole, when sufficient numbers of those who become wealthy are also humanitarians and return some of the benefits of their skills at making money... people like Dietmar Hopp, George Kaiser, Bill and Melinda Gates, Eli Broad, Pierre Omidar, Jim Simons, Ted Turner, Michael Bloomberg, Azim Premji, Warren Buffet and even Elon Musk and Jezz Bezos to a lesser extent (to name but a few).

Unfortunately, there are not enough of them, and if all capitalists were like Trump, the world would be a destitute place!
I always look at the businesses that are thriving and compare it to industries that are failing. Right now, the most successful businesses are targeted at the very wealthy. Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin all had their best years EVER. The same is true for Lear and Gulfstream. Private Yacht building is also highly successful right now. Conversely, car sales as a whole is mired in mediocrity. Retail is crashing and public infrastructure construction in the US is at its lowest since the WW2.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:26 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
You haven't read or understood that commentary at all, have you. Yes, The UK NHS has problems. But remember two things: First, even in its current parlous state it provides better medical services than most US citizens get. And second, it is having major issues precisely because the powers that be in the UK have been trying to change it to the US model of user-pays. And the further they go towards that, the worse the NHS becomes. Because it doesn't work.
The US government also pays more taxpayer dollars - both per capita, and as a percentage of the GDP - towards healthcare than the UK government does. So Americans pay more than Brits in tax for healthcare, and then have to pay out of their own pockets on top of that.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
As a country becomes more "diverse," trust and social cohesion break down and people become atomized individuals...
We have to get past that kind of thinking. We need to. Poverty is a better predictor of human behavior than race.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 06:39 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
The US government also pays more taxpayer dollars - both per capita, and as a percentage of the GDP - towards healthcare than the UK government does. So Americans pay more than Brits in tax for healthcare, and then have to pay out of their own pockets on top of that.
You need to understand how annoying it is for Americans when they hear British people saying stupid stuff like this. I hear this all the time as if British people can run brilliant government programs but Americans are unable because of the superiority of the not racist British people. One poster, JimBob, even made it a sig, as if to celebrate this non-victory.

What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK. Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US. Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally. Guess what? They all get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.

Think about these things before making dumb comments like the one you just made.

Last edited by Baylor; 2nd March 2019 at 08:09 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:03 PM   #32
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You need to understand how annoying it is for Americans when they hear British people saying stupid stuff like this. I hear this all the time as if British people can run brilliant government programs but Americans are unable because of the superiority of the not racist British people. One poster, JimBob, even made it a sig, as if to celebrate this non-victory.

What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK. Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US. Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally. Guess what? They call get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.

Think about these things before making dumb comments like the one you just made.
You have no idea how annoying it is hearing a fellow American saying such stupid nonsense. The US is certainly larger and more populated, but it really isn't more complex that it couldn't have similar results. You know who also has similar results as Great Britain? Most of the developed world.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:05 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You need to understand how annoying it is for Americans when they hear British people saying stupid stuff like this. I hear this all the time as if British people can run brilliant government programs but Americans are unable because of the superiority of the not racist British people. One poster, JimBob, even made it a sig, as if to celebrate this non-victory.

What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK. Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US. Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally. Guess what? They call get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.

Think about these things before making dumb comments like the one you just made.

Guess what, that huge problem would be solved if we first documented all the people inside the US and paid hospitals/doctors regardless if patients have the ability to pay at the time of their medical emergency.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:11 PM   #34
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If we documented all the people in the US, it would probably be a hell of a lot easier to deport illegals and control access to the polls.

As well as round up undesirables of any stripe, from time to time. Seems like Germany and Russia had a some success with this, on occasion.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:05 PM   #35
Baylor
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
You have no idea how annoying it is hearing a fellow American saying such stupid nonsense. The US is certainly larger and more populated, but it really isn't more complex that it couldn't have similar results. You know who also has similar results as Great Britain? Most of the developed world.
The even less populated, less diverse developed world. Great refutation.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Guess what, that huge problem would be solved if we first documented all the people inside the US and paid hospitals/doctors regardless if patients have the ability to pay at the time of their medical emergency.
Great idea! The US not only can afford to pay for healthcare for its own citizens but also an extra 200,000,000 central Americans just by "documenting" them.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:23 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
In Scandinavia Bernie Sanders and AOC would probably be considered to be Social Democrats. And I fear that, like Social Democrats, they will immediately find excuses for not following up on their alleged policies as soon as they come into some kind of power ...
I don't know how it works over there, but in the US, in order to pass legislation that is vaguely controversial, you need 60+ seats in the Senate otherwise no soup for you.

The odds of Dems winning 60+ seats in 2020 are virtually nil. Universal health care, for instance, doesn't have an icecube's chance in hell no matter who is POTUS.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:26 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
I don't know how it works over there, but in the US, in order to pass legislation that is vaguely controversial, you need 60+ seats in the Senate otherwise no soup for you.

The odds of Dems winning 60+ seats in 2020 are virtually nil. Universal health care, for instance, doesn't have an icecube's chance in hell no matter who is POTUS.
That wasn't true with Obamacare. That wasn't true with the tax cut either.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:28 PM   #39
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And Americans supported the "estate tax" -- until it was branded the "death tax."

Sure, Americans love "socialism," then it gets called "socialism" and they'd rather be dead than red. Americans are idiots. The people who said Sanders would've beaten Trump by more than Clinton made the same kind of error. This stuff polls well before the screws get turned.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 08:29 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Baylor View Post
You need to understand how annoying it is for Americans when they hear British people saying stupid stuff like this. I hear this all the time as if British people can run brilliant government programs but Americans are unable because of the superiority of the not racist British people. One poster, JimBob, even made it a sig, as if to celebrate this non-victory.

What you don't understand is the US is far more complex than the UK. Take the population of England, that's almost the number of non-citizens residing in the US. Tens of millions of those are in the US illegally. Guess what? They all get free health care by going to the ER and health clinics with no intention of paying the bill. Guess who does pay for it? American citizens.

Think about these things before making dumb comments like the one you just made.
You are not paying for any clinics, only the ER.

The problem of not giving work visas to people willing to do low wage farm labor, roofing jobs, etc is a separate problem.
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