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Tags centrism , neoliberalism , progressivism , socialism

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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:09 PM   #1
Travis
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Who is a progressive and who is a centrist?

So, I'll be honest. If comments on social media are anything to go by I don't think anyone has any idea who is and who isn't a centrist, neoliberal, progressive or a democratic socialist.


How is Kamala "basically a Republican" but Tulsi is a "progressive?"


What are the key positions one must take to be sorted into one group or another? Is it possible that people are just throwing around buzzwords? How many of these people actually live in Russia?
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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:12 PM   #2
xjx388
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, I'll be honest. If comments on social media are anything to go by
They aren’t.




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Old 2nd March 2019, 07:13 PM   #3
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, I'll be honest. If comments on social media are anything to go by
I think I see the problem.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 10:47 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, I'll be honest. If comments on social media are anything to go by I don't think anyone has any idea who is and who isn't a centrist, neoliberal, progressive or a democratic socialist.
Centrist: Evan Bayh
Neoliberal: Bill Clinton
Progressive: Elizabeth Warren
Democratic Socialist: Bernie Sanders.

Quote:
How is Kamala "basically a Republican" but Tulsi is a "progressive?"
You actually found people talking about Tulsi Gabbard?

Quote:
What are the key positions one must take to be sorted into one group or another? Is it possible that people are just throwing around buzzwords? How many of these people actually live in Russia?
I hear Kamala was born there.
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Old 2nd March 2019, 11:16 PM   #5
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Sanders isn't a "democratic socialist". Neither is AOC.

Those were labels tacked onto them by fans or tenuous self-proclamations at one point long ago and hardly ever brought up by them again.

Nothing they propose is much different from old school 20th century American progressives.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:23 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Sanders isn't a "democratic socialist". Neither is AOC.

Those were labels tacked onto them by fans or tenuous self-proclamations at one point long ago and hardly ever brought up by them again.

Nothing they propose is much different from old school 20th century American progressives.
Exactly. They are euro-style social democrats at best.

It just amazes me that so many USAians seem to believe that the definition of socialism is pretty much "anything slightly to the left of me that I disagree with".

It's like words don't actually mean anything anymore. Post modern conservatism.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Sanders isn't a "democratic socialist". Neither is AOC.

Those were labels tacked onto them by fans or tenuous self-proclamations at one point long ago and hardly ever brought up by them again.
Err, AOC belongs to the Democratic Socialists of America.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:17 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post
Sanders isn't a "democratic socialist". Neither is AOC.

Those were labels tacked onto them by fans or tenuous self-proclamations at one point long ago and hardly ever brought up by them again.

Nothing they propose is much different from old school 20th century American progressives.
I'm pretty sure the Democratic Socialist label was one Sanders gave himself and has kept.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Lambchops View Post
Exactly. They are euro-style social democrats at best.

It just amazes me that so many USAians seem to believe that the definition of socialism is pretty much "anything slightly to the left of me that I disagree with".

It's like words don't actually mean anything anymore. Post modern conservatism.
This is so true and the Democrats do a poor job of labeling themselves. Sanders tosses around 'socialism' like it's a selling point. It isn't. Rather it's terrible framing.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:19 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Err, AOC belongs to the Democratic Socialists of America.
Quote:
Ocasio-Cortez supports Medicare-for-all and a single-payer health care system, tuition-free college for all, banning private prisons, and most notable, abolishing the US Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency.
Which, for these goals, brings her in line with most of the rest of the civilised world. Including the Socialist Republics of Australia, Canada and the UK. It is true we have a gulag system for immigrants in Aus. Just that is being pushed by our non-socialist centre-right government currently.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:22 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Which, for these goals, brings her in line with most of the rest of the civilised world. Including the Socialist Republics of Australia, Canada and the UK. It is true we have a gulag system for immigrants in Aus. Just that is being pushed by our non-socialist centre-right government currently.
That's what I mean about framing, Democratic Socialists might sound wonderful to that base, but it's an unnecessary label doing more harm than good.

We're doomed to 4 more years of Trump if we don't sort this out in the primary.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Which, for these goals, brings her in line with most of the rest of the civilised world. Including the Socialist Republics of Australia, Canada and the UK. It is true we have a gulag system for immigrants in Aus. Just that is being pushed by our non-socialist centre-right government currently.
Are you saying tuition is free in Australia and have single payer, or did you mean something else?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 12:48 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
If comments on social media are anything to go by
They aren’t.
How many times do we need to tell you this, Travis?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:14 PM   #14
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Why can't you be a Progressive Centrist?

Of course doing so in the US makes you left of 90% of the population.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:25 PM   #15
p0lka
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So, I'll be honest. If comments on social media are anything to go by I don't think anyone has any idea who is and who isn't a centrist, neoliberal, progressive or a democratic socialist.


How is Kamala "basically a Republican" but Tulsi is a "progressive?"


What are the key positions one must take to be sorted into one group or another? Is it possible that people are just throwing around buzzwords? How many of these people actually live in Russia?
Labels seem to be bad in my opinion.
Ask the person themselves whether they want to labelled as being in one group or another, comments on social media are just other peoples attempts to label someone.
It's Tribal **** once again, just be yourself.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 01:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think I see the problem.

Same problem with every thread from the OP. Far as I'm gonna read. Next!
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:39 PM   #17
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Okay, so is the consensus here that no one running is actually a socialist of any stripe?


Then who is and who isn't a progressive? Who is a neoliberal?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 04:53 PM   #18
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The whole concept of centrism rests on the flawed principle that good ideas lie midway between two bad ideas

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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Okay, so is the consensus here that no one running is actually a socialist of any stripe?
No. The consensus is that social media is a toxic dump and you shouldn't look to it for information about anything.

And Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist. I'm OK with taking him at his word.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:25 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
No. The consensus is that social media is a toxic dump and you shouldn't look to it for information about anything.

And Bernie Sanders calls himself a socialist. I'm OK with taking him at his word.
No, Bernie Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. The difference is huge.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, Bernie Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. The difference is huge.
Sure. Huge difference.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 05:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
No, Bernie Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist. The difference is huge.
All the real socialists call themselves republicans.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:06 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Okay, so is the consensus here that no one running is actually a socialist of any stripe?


Then who is and who isn't a progressive? Who is a neoliberal?
Forget the labels,

If you like their policies, then you like their policies, it doesn't matter how social media labels them.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:12 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Forget the labels,



If you like their policies, then you like their policies, it doesn't matter how social media labels them.
What if I don't know what I like, unless social media tells me what labels and ideas I have?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
The whole concept of centrism rests on the flawed principle that good ideas lie midway between two bad ideas
Since centrist isn't prescribed to a particular side or party, it's hard to see how the view would be on any given subject. It doesn't have to be the middle between two bad ideas, but could be a more realistic outlook on it. Say for Medicare for all. I don't know what you would put as a centrist view.

The right would be against it in principle. The left would be for it with the expectation the rich and business would pick up the tab. The centrist might be that if a majority wants it, it is something that should be done, but the cost will hit the majority of people. With higher taxes, some loss of service availability etc. Hard to advocate for where 'centrist' stands on any given topic though.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
All the real socialists call themselves republicans.

Only golf socialists call themselves republicans.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:40 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Are you saying tuition is free in Australia and have single payer, or did you mean something else?
Basically, yes. That's why we are a Socialist Republic. Or something.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:46 PM   #28
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What we need is an online app that generates the appropriate label for you, depending on the various social issue solutions you would prefer. E.g. Do you support one-payer health care? Do you support monarchy? Do you think tertiary education should be free? Etc., etc. Do some sort of weighting and grading and calculation, then assign a suitable label you can proudly wear on a campaign button or trumpet on social media. Because that's how people make up their minds apparently - getting angry about other peoples' campaign buttons. Go democracy!
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:49 PM   #29
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I think I'm with most Americans when I say this.

I DON'T ******* care how we get we obtain the best results for the greatest number of people. Just that we do. If a more socialist model works for best for delivering services such as electricity, sewer, water, healthcare, whatever, then let it be socialist. If capitalism and free markets can, even better.

But let's not act as if a more socialist approach to say healthcare or education is the slippery slope to government running EVERYTHING because it isn't.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:51 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Only golf socialists call themselves republicans.

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Nah. It's the serious hardcore socialists, too. Don't believe me? Check it:

Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

People's Republic of China.

Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Republic of Cuba.

Socialist Republic of Vietnam.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:52 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think I'm with most Americans when I say this.

I DON'T ******* care how we get we obtain the best results for the greatest number of people. Just that we do. If a more socialist model works for best for delivering services such as electricity, sewer, water, healthcare, whatever, then let it be socialist. If capitalism and free markets can, even better.

But let's not act as if a more socialist approach to say healthcare or education is the slippery slope to government running EVERYTHING because it isn't.
Stop being rational. This is serious government issues we are talking about.

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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:56 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I think I'm with most Americans when I say this.

I DON'T ******* care how we get we obtain the best results for the greatest number of people. Just that we do. If a more socialist model works for best for delivering services such as electricity, sewer, water, healthcare, whatever, then let it be socialist. If capitalism and free markets can, even better.

But let's not act as if a more socialist approach to say healthcare or education is the slippery slope to government running EVERYTHING because it isn't.
The best way to get the best results for the most people is to put someone in charge who knows what's best, and empower them to summarily execute anyone who gets in the way of that goal.

Think of it as applied Darwinism. Two generations of this program, and humanity would consist almost entirely of people committed to the cause.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 06:59 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The best way to get the best results for the most people is to put someone in charge who knows what's best, and empower them to summarily execute anyone who gets in the way of that goal.

Think of it as applied Darwinism. Two generations of this program, and humanity would consist almost entirely of people committed to the cause.
Ouch.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The best way to get the best results for the most people is to put someone in charge who knows what's best, and empower them to summarily execute anyone who gets in the way of that goal.

Think of it as applied Darwinism. Two generations of this program, and humanity would consist almost entirely of people committed to the cause.
Well, you failed at the first hurdle in 2016. Try again.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:10 PM   #35
theprestige
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Ouch.
That's what the egg said to the omelette chef.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:12 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Well, you failed at the first hurdle in 2016. Try again.
Bro, name a year that didn't fail the first hurdle.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
The best way to get the best results for the most people is to put someone in charge who knows what's best, and empower them to summarily execute anyone who gets in the way of that goal.

Think of it as applied Darwinism. Two generations of this program, and humanity would consist almost entirely of people committed to the cause.
Originally Posted by Norman Alexander View Post
Well, you failed at the first hurdle in 2016. Try again.
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Bro, name a year that didn't fail the first hurdle.
Doesn't that detract from your proposal then?
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Doesn't that detract from your proposal then?
Not at all. Norman Alexander, seeking pointless rhetorical advantage, pretends that the US presidential election of 2016 was about selecting someone who knows what's best.

The truth is that very few modern political systems are intended to execute anyone who expresses Incorrect Thought. And those that do cold suck at empowering people who know what's best for the most people. Exhibit A: North Korea.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:44 PM   #39
acbytesla
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Not at all. Norman Alexander, seeking pointless rhetorical advantage, pretends that the US presidential election of 2016 was about selecting someone who knows what's best.

The truth is that very few modern political systems are intended to execute anyone who expresses Incorrect Thought. And those that do cold suck at empowering people who know what's best for the most people. Exhibit A: North Korea.
Except, you seem to be playing the false equivalence game. As if every leader is equally good or bad.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Except, you seem to be playing the false equivalence game. As if every leader is equally good or bad.
That's not even implicit in anything he said.
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