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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:22 PM   #41
Marcus
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Manufactures should not be able to prevent third party maintenance.
No argument there. The problem I run into with woodworking tools and machines is when the manufacturer stops making the parts. Generic things like motors and bearings can still be found because they are not specific to that particular machine, but if it is a part specific to that machine you are frequently out of luck. Only if it a very large, very expensive machine is it worth having a part custom made.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 07:39 PM   #42
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I stay online with used and cheap phones. I will get four good years out of most before software changes or damages take them out. I just sold an old Nokia that works fine except for going online.
A guy who just wants s phone for his biz has a fine old phone now.

If those are disposable I understand. Few could really fix one. A car or appliance needs to be serviced at times and should be made in such a manner.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 08:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
Ah perhaps that's why they started putting batteries in the trunk. Overheating? With an aluminum block prayers may be all you can say.
True up to a point, but if the car starts overheating, you could stop it from destroying the engine, and so forth. And of course not all blocks are aluminum. In any case, given the great number of cars on the road, and the variety of breakdowns and accidents possible, I can imagine that it would take a very short time before a sealed-hood scheme would result in some conspicuously inconvenient deaths and injuries.
Quote:


Yeah, Moebob hasn't made any point of it and seems fine with cold water washing. Though I'd still like the option if I got something particularly nasty to wash.
Most fill valves are solenoids, with an external coil that can be removed and replaced without even undoing the whole thing. If you can't find the correct valve, you can often pull the coil off another. Many machines mix hot and cold differently during parts of the cycle, so it's a good idea to have the two valves working correctly.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 09:50 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Your tractor blows up, you are permanently harmed or killed.

Assuming you took a modicum of effort to throw away a receipt, how do they prove if it was a mechanical fault of the machine, or a result of the repair?
Aftermarket parts practically never absolutely identical to OEM parts. Investigators are readily able to discern between the two for several reasons which can in their aggregate be summarized effectively as "science is awesome".

Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Furthermore, do you not think this could impact efficiency of recalls?
No.

Recalls happen because a rash of similar incidents prompt either an internal company investigation or an independent regulatory investigation to determine the common cause. Either one is going to find out through testing whether it is the OEM design or an aftermarket modification that is causing the incidents and will issue a recall or public notice appropriately. They can do this no matter how many receipts are conveniently "lost", or even if the offending part is somehow magically destroyed beyond all capability of analysis during each failure, because the OEM will have samples of the OEM part(s) available and if there is truly a flaw in the OEM's design, the design will fail in a reproduceable way during testing.
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Old 3rd March 2019, 11:31 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Does the state have a compelling reason to interfere? Does this solve the problem? Is it the least intrusive solution?
As far as I can tell: Yes, yes, and yes.
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Old 4th March 2019, 07:18 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This is a problem I've faced my entire life. It's easy to get parts when a tool is new and you don't need them, once it's 10,15,20 years old not so much, they just want you to buy a new one. Still, I'm hesitant to say that government should step in and require a business to engage in unprofitable operations.
That is not what the Right to Repair movement is about. It's about not preventing people from fixing their own devices. Apple, an easy target for this, in some sort of punitive attempt to control who is allowed to repair their iPhones. Basically, the home button breaks. If you take it to an Apple shop, they will fix it and all will be well. But if you did it on the cheap, and took it to a 3rd party, the button would work, but touch ID did not. Nobody had a problem with that, except Apple. Apple pushes out an update and any 3rd party repair bricked the phone.

Another example, when a trace on an Apple product broke, a 3rd party repairer ran a wire, restored the electronic connection and all was well. In testimony to a state congress, an Apple lawyer called that device a "counterfeit" device. All because electrons were moving down a wire and not a trace on a printed circuit board. Nothing was bypassed.

It's only going to get worse, as the internet of things expands. There was a case where one of the smart scooter rental companies sued someone for DMCA violations. Basically, the city impounded illegally parked dockless scooters. When the scooter company did not come and pay the impound fee, the city auctioned them off. The new owner, stripped the proprietary parts off the scooter, and got hit with a DMCA lawsuit for bypassing their software when he published a guide on removal of their device. The software was on the parts that had been disconnected from the scooter.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:13 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by a_unique_person View Post
Apple in Australia has been forced to replace faulty goods even if a third party attempted to repair them. They didn't like that.

Vehicle manufacturers incorporate encrypted systems in their vehicle management computers. Third parties can't maintain them.
I was sold a lemon on account of this. I had the car check out by a mechanic but since he didn't have Toyota's super duper computer system he missed the code that would have told me it was a lemon, which I found out later when I had to take to a dealer.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:27 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I was sold a lemon on account of this. I had the car check out by a mechanic but since he didn't have Toyota's super duper computer system he missed the code that would have told me it was a lemon, which I found out later when I had to take to a dealer.
I think the standardization of OBD-II has mostly fixed that problem in the US, but if your car was from before 1996 or outside the US, then it didn't need to have OBD-II.
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Old 4th March 2019, 08:46 AM   #49
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Because from the manufacturers point of view regardless of how they manage to get the laws worded renting/leasing/selling you the right to use something is infinitely better for them then selling you something once.

That's why right now pretty much every industry is trying to find their version of the "Give you the handle, sell you the razors" model and with a lot of big purchases that's going to be on the post-selling service and upkeep area.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:36 AM   #50
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Look, if you donít like the fact that you canít repair something you buy yourself, donít buy that something. If Appleís, for example, policy of non-3rd-party-repair was truly a problem, then they would not sell many phones.

If we consumers truly wanted something that we could fix ourselves, then the market would reflect that. We donít have to buy things we donít want. We could force the manufacturers to give us what we want by voting with our dollars.

Want a tractor you can fix yourself? Cool, buy a brand that allows it and donít buy the brand that restricts you. If all manufacturers are switching to the no-fix policy, then that tells you something about the market -namely that the market wants things you canít fix yourself.

We just need to be smarter, more informed consumers, buy what we actually want and not just buy something because itís the latest and greatest without understanding exactly what we are buying.


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Old 4th March 2019, 09:36 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can't believe we are arguing about the right to have laws to make sure anything we buy will work forever..
That is not what this is this is what it is.

"But a big California farmersí lobbying group just blithely signed away farmersí right to access or modify the source code of any farm equipment software. As an organization representing 2.5 million California agriculture jobs, the California Farm Bureau gave up the right to purchase repair parts without going through a dealer. Farmers canít change engine settings, canít retrofit old equipment with new features, and canít modify their tractors to meet new environmental standards on their own. Worse, the lobbyists are calling it a victory"


https://www.wired.com/story/john-dee...ght-to-repair/

Of course you are happy to have the manufacturer be able to decide that your purchase will automatically stop working after 5 years and so you need to buy a new one or take it to them and pay them to fix the planned obsolescence.

Face it owning the stuff you buy is such an outdated concept.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:40 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Look, if you donít like the fact that you canít repair something you buy yourself, donít buy that something. If Appleís, for example, policy of non-3rd-party-repair was truly a problem, then they would not sell many phones.

If we consumers truly wanted something that we could fix ourselves, then the market would reflect that. We donít have to buy things we donít want. We could force the manufacturers to give us what we want by voting with our dollars.

Want a tractor you can fix yourself? Cool, buy a brand that allows it and donít buy the brand that restricts you. If all manufacturers are switching to the no-fix policy, then that tells you something about the market -namely that the market wants things you canít fix yourself.

We just need to be smarter, more informed consumers, buy what we actually want and not just buy something because itís the latest and greatest without understanding exactly what we are buying.
In much the same way that people have a real hard time with the idea that it doesn't matter how much support a candidate has if nobody is voting for them and vice versa, they have a hard time understanding that a product you absolutely hate but still buy has 100% of your support.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:43 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
This is a problem I've faced my entire life. It's easy to get parts when a tool is new and you don't need them, once it's 10,15,20 years old not so much, they just want you to buy a new one. Still, I'm hesitant to say that government should step in and require a business to engage in unprofitable operations.
And that isn't want people are calling on them for, but intentionally making it so that you can't even work on it. Change your own brake pads and the computer in the car bricks itself and you need a new car. That is the goal here.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:46 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
No argument there. The problem I run into with woodworking tools and machines is when the manufacturer stops making the parts. Generic things like motors and bearings can still be found because they are not specific to that particular machine, but if it is a part specific to that machine you are frequently out of luck. Only if it a very large, very expensive machine is it worth having a part custom made.
Ah but if they were more like the manufacturers being discussed here it would be install an after market blade or even an OEM blade youself and the tool bricks itself.
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:42 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah but if they were more like the manufacturers being discussed here it would be install an after market blade or even an OEM blade youself and the tool bricks itself.
My expectation:
Quote:
In order to protect our CoolBlade customers against problems from poor-quality blades, we will now be including BladeProtect(TM) identification systems with all new CoolBlade blade systems.

Now when you install a new BladeProtect(TM) blade in your handle, the RFID chip will recognize it as a genuine CoolBlade blade and give you peace of mind by lighting the identification LED with a cool green color.

If you install a blade and authentication fails, then the identification LED will display a warning yellow. You should immediately take your blades back to the point of sale and inform them that you did not receive genuine BladeProtect(TM) blades.

When the LED is yellow, the CoolBlade system will protect you from possible damage by extending a protective shield around the blade. This keeps CoolBlade customers safe from possible injury caused by the unintentional use of poorly-manufactured imitation blades.
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:53 AM   #56
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The real fun will be when medical devices get to do this. 'Dear Consumer, thanks so much for purchasing and installing our LuvUMuch Artificial Heart. Unfortunately, costs have risen in the year since your implant so we will now be assessing a supplementary licensing fee of ten dollars a minute for use of our product. Failure to comply will result in the wireless deactivation of the device. Please remit the attached invoice for the last year, and supply direct debit information for present and future bilking. We mean billing. Thanks, FutureMedical-Inevitable Inc.'
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:27 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah but if they were more like the manufacturers being discussed here it would be install an after market blade or even an OEM blade youself and the tool bricks itself.
Yes, that would suck. It's still not fun when a tool turns into a brick because you can't get parts though.
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:36 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by BowlOfRed View Post
My expectation:

That's not as far fetched as it sounds. Right now if you own a SawStop (a tablesaw that stops the blade if a finger gets near it) , and you trigger the safety device, to get it running again you must buy an expensive, proprietary explosive cartridge from the manufacturer. Also there are CNC machines of various types, it wouldn't surprise me if they were playing games with the software like is being discussed here.
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:43 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
Yes, that would suck. It's still not fun when a tool turns into a brick because you can't get parts though.
Yea but parts are understandable through economics and not solely the company screwing their customers. A part will become uneconomical once economies of scale fall below a certain level.

The things being fought over are much more basic and not about forcing them to make uneconomical parts but not permitting them from bricking otherwise good equipment because they did some repair in some other fashion.
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Old 4th March 2019, 11:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
That's not as far fetched as it sounds. Right now if you own a SawStop (a tablesaw that stops the blade if a finger gets near it) , and you trigger the safety device, to get it running again you must buy an expensive, proprietary explosive cartridge from the manufacturer. Also there are CNC machines of various types, it wouldn't surprise me if they were playing games with the software like is being discussed here.
The sawstop thing is patent protection not right to repair. Unless they brick it with after market cartridges when their patent expires then it would count as an issue.

Also the Bosch cartridges had the explosive Sawstop just use a spring to push the aluminum into the blade and let momentum take over.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:03 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Man View Post
MCM use to be a good place to get OEM parts for audio equipment but now they are just part of Newark electronics.


https://www.newark.com/mcm-partnersh...SAAEgJdpvD_BwE

I use rockauto for our cars parts (them that's out of warranty that is)

https://www.rockauto.com/

and Bikebandit for my motorcycle parts

https://www.bikebandit.com/parts

I found a site for appliance parts but can't recall it now, I'll have to check one of the receipts tonight.

Some stuff like furnace parts (just replaced the combustion chamber) I just get through amazon and that's an old trailer furnace.

Had to get a replacement blower fan motor support some years back for the furnace, got a universal type from I think Zicon.

http://zicontrols.com.sg/
While I did forget to look on one of the receipts last night, I just now remembered the name of the the site for appliance parts.

https://www.repairclinic.com/
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:33 PM   #62
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I guess I'm still trying to figure out what exactly we're discussing.

I'm in favor of owners being able to crack the case and tinker without being liable for civil suits by the manufacturer, or losing possession of their possessions, or anything like that. On the other hand, I have no problem with manufacturers being allowed to void the warranty and be absolved of any liability, if the owner tries to service any "non user serviceable parts". And the question of whether things should be manufactured to be user-serviceable is something that I think should be left to the market to decide.

As a pushback against licensing physical ownership the way we've ended up licensing intellectual property, I support a "right of repair". In terms of using the power of the state to force manufacturers to make things "user serviceable"? Boop to that.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:41 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
If we consumers truly wanted something that we could fix ourselves, then the market would reflect that. We don’t have to buy things we don’t want. We could force the manufacturers to give us what we want by voting with our dollars.

Too bad real life doesn't work that way. Ma Bell anyone?

How real life works is that manufacturers and other big corporations do all in their power to maximize their short-term profits at the expense of their customers. And when one corporation manages to do so successfully, eg. Apple, others will very shortly follow suit, eg. HTC. Any company that does not follow suit will have to endure smaller profit margins, of which volume can only make up a fraction, and find themselves targeted by predatory marketing practices (eg. loss-leader market pushes), or outright disinfo campaigns. Eventually, they'll go out of business or be bought up by the bigger corporations, and there will be an effective cartel setting prices and policies to, again maximize profits at the expense of their customers.

There are numerous examples of this in the history of the electronics and automotive industries.

Barring government intervention, in a corporatist capitalist economy, monopolies and cartels are the inevitable end result of unregulated business practices.

Critics of such practices, and those who find work-arounds, will quickly find themselves targeted by bogus "anti-counterfeiting", "anti-piracy", "intellectual property", and SLAPP actions.

A recent example most people should be aware of is the Ink Wars, that is, the war between the computer printer manufacturers and third-party suppliers of ink and toner cartridges. And it wasn't just the ink cartridges that were the problem, some manufacturers built planned obsolescence into their printers as well, ensuring that a high percentage of them would fail within three years of purchase.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:43 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Marcus View Post
That's not as far fetched as it sounds. Right now if you own a SawStop (a tablesaw that stops the blade if a finger gets near it) , and you trigger the safety device, to get it running again you must buy an expensive, proprietary explosive cartridge from the manufacturer. Also there are CNC machines of various types, it wouldn't surprise me if they were playing games with the software like is being discussed here.

If the CPU cooling fan in your HP or Lenovo computer goes out, good luck getting a third-party replacement to work. Ask me how I know this.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:50 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The sawstop thing is patent protection not right to repair. Unless they brick it with after market cartridges when their patent expires then it would count as an issue.

Also the Bosch cartridges had the explosive Sawstop just use a spring to push the aluminum into the blade and let momentum take over.

It's all part of the same thing. Start out using highly proprietary parts and technology, gain a certain market share, then stop allowing third-party repair for any part of the equipment, and treat those who attempt it as criminals.

Apple didn't come up with that anti-repair planned-obsolescence policy overnight, nor did it pull it out of a vacuum; there's a long and sordid history behind it.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:53 PM   #66
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1. It is wrong for a manufacturer to expect an end user to be wholly and completely dependent on them for service, repair, and supply of spare parts, accessories, and add ons.

2. It is doubly wrong for a manufacturer to do this and stop producing parts/service/accessories while trying to prevent third parties from doing it.

3. It is understandable for a manufacturer that provides service to refuse to service something that has been modified by the user. This was established in the groundbreaking court case of "You break it, you bought" of Nineteen Hundred and Always.

4. Reasonable oversight for things like medical devices might be necessary sometimes. You don't want grandpa having the warranty pulled on his pacemaker because he replaced it with an Energizer instead of a Duracell battery.
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Old 4th March 2019, 01:54 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's all part of the same thing. Start out using highly proprietary parts and technology, gain a certain market share, then stop allowing third-party repair for any part of the equipment, and treat those who attempt it as criminals.

Apple didn't come up with that anti-repair planned-obsolescence policy overnight, nor did it pull it out of a vacuum; there's a long and sordid history behind it.
Not necessarily in that particular case. Of course the way arround it in that case would have been the government agreeing to mandate the technology on all table saws and so every saw sold would be paying the patent holder a fee.

Sawstop saws do not fit well into discussions of just right to repair as it gets into a lot of patent rights and what the developer of a product is entitled to.
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Old 4th March 2019, 05:29 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Look, if you don’t like the fact that you can’t repair something you buy yourself, don’t buy that something. If Apple’s, for example, policy of non-3rd-party-repair was truly a problem, then they would not sell many phones.
It is a problem, even if you don't see it yourself. Why is Apple fighting so hard against it, if it isn't a problem?

Quote:
If we consumers truly wanted something that we could fix ourselves, then the market would reflect that. We don’t have to buy things we don’t want. We could force the manufacturers to give us what we want by voting with our dollars.
Do you think of repair when you bought your iPhone? Given that Apple techs will flat out lie to you, trying to sell you a new device, saying it's too expensive to repair, who should you trust?

Quote:
Want a tractor you can fix yourself? Cool, buy a brand that allows it and don’t buy the brand that restricts you. If all manufacturers are switching to the no-fix policy, then that tells you something about the market -namely that the market wants things you can’t fix yourself.
The tractor you can fix yourself? Doesn't exist. There is no brand that allows it.


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We just need to be smarter, more informed consumers, buy what we actually want and not just buy something because it’s the latest and greatest without understanding exactly what we are buying.
But then ...

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Did you know that Apple routinely lies about repaired products being counterfeit? That they put on stickers that say "Warranty void if removed" even after the FTC has said such stickers are illegal?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:17 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I guess I'm still trying to figure out what exactly we're discussing.

I'm in favor of owners being able to crack the case and tinker without being liable for civil suits by the manufacturer, or losing possession of their possessions, or anything like that. On the other hand, I have no problem with manufacturers being allowed to void the warranty and be absolved of any liability, if the owner tries to service any "non user serviceable parts". And the question of whether things should be manufactured to be user-serviceable is something that I think should be left to the market to decide.

As a pushback against licensing physical ownership the way we've ended up licensing intellectual property, I support a "right of repair". In terms of using the power of the state to force manufacturers to make things "user serviceable"? Boop to that.
Why would manufacturers ever permit users to service their products when they could charge money to force users to come to them for repairs? They're not going to do it voluntarily. It would reduce their profits.

I know you consider the R word to be a dirty one, but this is exactly what regulation is for - to force companies to provide options that might not be in their best financial interest. If you, as you claim, support a right to repair, that necessarily will require regulation.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:45 PM   #70
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Why are people so damn greedy? Can't we just make a thing, sell it, and that's it? Does every last possible hypothetical cent have to be screwed out of every last possible customer?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:54 PM   #71
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I think we're talking several distinct things here.

//For the most part I will be focusing on non-essential, non-life saving consumer products. Exceptions will exist.//

1. Actually making it illegal for an end consumer to repair their own legally purchased product. I feel this is, in general, wrong. I purchase a widget, the widget breaks, I should be allowed to fix it.

2. Pulling "support" (warranties, online services, updates, etc) from products if the consumer modifies outside of the recommended way the manufacturer recommends. With this I'm a lot more "eeeehhhh you made your bed." If my widget is under warranty but when it breaks I try to fix it with duct tape and Spackle and a circuit board I pulled out of a Chinese knockoff Playstation instead of taking it to an authorized repair shop, I don't think the Widget manufacturer should be able to legally do anything to me punitively, but going "Okay well your warranty is null and void because we're not about to put our finger prints on that train wreck and there is zero chance that monstrosity is going to connect to our update servers to check for software updates " is well within their rights.

And this works both ways. If my Widget explodes and kills the little kid next door but the software update released after I kitbashed it would have prevented it, well that's on me, not on WidgetCo.

3. Specifically not making it easy for end goods to be repair on a personal / hobbyist level. This is the biggest grey area for me personally. Anyone who likes to tinker with electronics can attest to how hard it is to even get into an average piece of consumer electronics these days. I replaced both the DVD-Drive and the Hard Drive on my original Xbox with only a Torx screwdriver. I had to order a special tool to even get the external case off my Xbox 360 and didn't feel comfortable doing anything beyond that given how weird everything in there was put together. I haven't even tried to open up my Xbox One yet.

And this creates a conundrum for me. I think this practice is dirty and self serving but how would we even codify any sort of "You can't make it harder people to work on your products" standard into law? I mean how would that even work?
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:54 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why are people so damn greedy? Can't we just make a thing, sell it, and that's it? Does every last possible hypothetical cent have to be screwed out of every last possible customer?
Unless forced to do otherwise, yes. Welcome to late-stage capitalism.
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Old 4th March 2019, 06:58 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why are people so damn greedy? Can't we just make a thing, sell it, and that's it? Does every last possible hypothetical cent have to be screwed out of every last possible customer?
Because no matter what customers say they want "Please screw me out of money, yes please take away features I want and sell me adapters to get them back, brick this product so I'll buy the new one, make me spend money to just maintain access to things I already own" and all that jazz is exactly what they actually want based on how they spend money.
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Old 4th March 2019, 07:07 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because no matter what customers say they want "Please screw me out of money, yes please take away features I want and sell me adapters to get them back, brick this product so I'll buy the new one, make me spend money to just maintain access to things I already own" and all that jazz is exactly what they actually want based on how they spend money.
Largely because they have been conditioned to do that by the manufacturers.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:13 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Aftermarket parts practically never absolutely identical to OEM parts. Investigators are readily able to discern between the two for several reasons which can in their aggregate be summarized effectively as "science is awesome".



No.

Recalls happen because a rash of similar incidents prompt either an internal company investigation or an independent regulatory investigation to determine the common cause. Either one is going to find out through testing whether it is the OEM design or an aftermarket modification that is causing the incidents and will issue a recall or public notice appropriately. They can do this no matter how many receipts are conveniently "lost", or even if the offending part is somehow magically destroyed beyond all capability of analysis during each failure, because the OEM will have samples of the OEM part(s) available and if there is truly a flaw in the OEM's design, the design will fail in a reproduceable way during testing.
I truly hate when someone snips 2/3 of a post then pretends making a point by responding to the remaining 3rd is intellectually honest.
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Old 4th March 2019, 09:16 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Because no matter what customers say they want "Please screw me out of money, yes please take away features I want and sell me adapters to get them back, brick this product so I'll buy the new one, make me spend money to just maintain access to things I already own" and all that jazz is exactly what they actually want based on how they spend money.
And why don't they make vhs tapes anymore, and why can't you play Nintendo on Sega, why do I have to get a sound card in my laptop, grumble grumble grumble.

Instead of whinning, maybe take a minute to understand why these things are not done?
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Old 4th March 2019, 10:31 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
It is a problem, even if you don't see it yourself. Why is Apple fighting so hard against it, if it isn't a problem?



Do you think of repair when you bought your iPhone? Given that Apple techs will flat out lie to you, trying to sell you a new device, saying it's too expensive to repair, who should you trust?
I definitely understand exactly what I give up buying into Appleís ecosystem. I also understand exactly what I gain. Apple techs have never lied to me and Iíve never had any issue getting faulty products replaced. Overall, Iím extremely happy with my purchases. If I wasnít, I wouldnít buy them, obviously.

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The tractor you can fix yourself? Doesn't exist. There is no brand that allows it.
I am no farmer but I thought this was only affecting John Deere. Surely there are other brands? Or is JD a monopoly?

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But then ...
And? As I said, I know what Iím getting. In other words l, Iím an informed customer. I rarely buy anything without understanding what it is Iím buying.
Quote:
Did you know that Apple routinely lies about repaired products being counterfeit? That they put on stickers that say "Warranty void if removed" even after the FTC has said such stickers are illegal?
I donít know any of those things. Iíve never seen a sticker like you describe. I just understand that if something goes wrong under warranty,I have to send it to Apple. Outside of warranty? Donít know...Iíve never dealt with that situation.


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Old 4th March 2019, 11:34 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
I truly hate when someone snips 2/3 of a post then pretends making a point by responding to the remaining 3rd is intellectually honest.
I answered every question you asked. The remainder of your post didn't contain any questions and didn't need a response.
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Old 5th March 2019, 02:25 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Want a tractor you can fix yourself? Cool, buy a brand that allows it and donít buy the brand that restricts you. If all manufacturers are switching to the no-fix policy, then that tells you something about the market -namely that the market manufacturers wants things you canít fix yourself.
FTFY.
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Old 5th March 2019, 04:07 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Look, if you donít like the fact that you canít repair something you buy yourself, donít buy that something. If Appleís, for example, policy of non-3rd-party-repair was truly a problem, then they would not sell many phones.

What makes you say that? I can't see that that follows at all.
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