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Old 11th March 2019, 07:48 AM   #161
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I like to think we should be able to discuss "the right to fix/modify things you own" without discussing tearing down the entire system and rebuilding it from scratch.
If Apple aren't letting me fix my own phone what other actions do we have other than the guillotine and the gulag?
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:54 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I like to think we should be able to discuss "the right to fix/modify things you own" without discussing tearing down the entire system and rebuilding it from scratch.
Maybe but as seen with the internet and net neutrality what the people want really just does not hold a candle to corporate interests in terms of what policies get enacted. The technoserfs really need to accept their place.
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Old 11th March 2019, 07:57 AM   #163
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Okay here's a fair question.

If the consumer base is given the choice of two (or more) product lines do all of them have to be "open" for our purposes?

I mean if you want something that you "own and control" don't buy an iPhone, buy an Android or if you really want to crazy, a Librem 5 or something similar.

I've tinkered to hell and back with my last 3 android phones and Apple's Thugs haven't kicked my door in because... well they can't.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:01 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's a fair question.

If the consumer base is given the choice of two (or more) product lines do all of them have to be "open" for our purposes?

I mean if you want something that you "own and control" don't buy an iPhone, buy an Android or if you really want to crazy, a Librem 5 or something similar.

I've tinkered to hell and back with my last 3 android phones and Apple's Thugs haven't kicked my door in because... well they can't.
And that just shows that in the phone world this has not become a critical problem, but in other areas there can be a lot less choice, like say tractors. It is kind of like net neutrality we don't need silly laws and regulations right up until we do.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:05 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay here's a fair question.

If the consumer base is given the choice of two (or more) product lines do all of them have to be "open" for our purposes?

I mean if you want something that you "own and control" don't buy an iPhone, buy an Android or if you really want to crazy, a Librem 5 or something similar.

I've tinkered to hell and back with my last 3 android phones and Apple's Thugs haven't kicked my door in because... well they can't.
Here's another one: what if all your options are essentially the same, disallowing repairs and modifications? You can't bloody well not have a phone.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:07 AM   #166
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I am just bringing up the possibility of us inadvertently arguing ourselves into a position where throw the baby out with the bathwater and hamstring any product/service/device/solution/whatever that is sold packaged with ongoing support or whatever.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:15 AM   #167
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Well it's hard to find the right balance in a number of things, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say "yeah ok you can void my warranty if I tinker with the thing but you can't sue me."
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:16 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well it's hard to find the right balance in a number of things, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say "yeah ok you can void my warranty if I tinker with the thing but you can't sue me."
And that's where I'm at with it. Invalidate your warranty? Yeah that's a no-brainer for me.

There is some grey area with things like cell phones where you can't really separate the product and the service, as in sure I can fix my own cell phone but do I have a right for it to go back on the network after I do.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:51 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I like to think we should be able to discuss "the right to fix/modify things you own" without discussing tearing down the entire system and rebuilding it from scratch.

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how allowing consumers to repair things they own is supposed to bring down the entirety of western capitalism.
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Old 11th March 2019, 08:57 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I've tinkered to hell and back with my last 3 android phones and Apple's Thugs haven't kicked my door in because... well they can't.
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's another one: what if all your options are essentially the same, disallowing repairs and modifications? You can't bloody well not have a phone.

Apple is not the only phone manufacturer who is pushing the anti-repair planned obsolescence agenda. They are simply ahead of the pack due to less competition for the platform, and an early market dominance position.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's where I'm at with it. Invalidate your warranty? Yeah that's a no-brainer for me.

There is some grey area with things like cell phones where you can't really separate the product and the service, as in sure I can fix my own cell phone but do I have a right for it to go back on the network after I do.

Except that you can separate the product and the service, and in much of the world this is done. There's absolutely no reason why you cannot buy a phone independent of the service you plan to use it with, and then decide on a service provider. The fact that unlocked phones exist, and can be moved across providers in most of the rest of the world, demonstrates that locking phones to providers is simply unnecessary, and little more than an attempt to create monopolistic vertical integration.

The only real-world hurdle to swapping providers that exists is network compatibility -- ie. you can't use a GSM phone on a CDMA network, and vice versa.
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Old 11th March 2019, 09:00 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how allowing consumers to repair things they own is supposed to bring down the entirety of western capitalism.
Look if your car manufacturer doesn't have the right to brick the car if you use after market oil or gasoline in it you have clearly destroyed all of western civilization. OEM or nothing.
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Old 11th March 2019, 09:44 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Here's another one: what if all your options are essentially the same, disallowing repairs and modifications? You can't bloody well not have a phone.
Landlines, burner phones, etc.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:07 AM   #173
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Landlines? Does anyone still have those these days? Will they still have them in 20 years?
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:11 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Landlines? Does anyone still have those these days? Will they still have them in 20 years?
Yes, people still have them.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:12 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Landlines? Does anyone still have those these days? Will they still have them in 20 years?
I don't think businesses are going to do away with landlines any time soon, even if they become an anachronism for residential customers.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:14 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think businesses are going to do away with landlines any time soon, even if they become an anachronism for residential customers.
Yeah but even then no business bigger then a Mom & Pop corner store has a landline in the traditional sense, they'll have some sort of IP based VOIP system using the same infastructure as their network.

We have 700+ lines going into the business I do IT support for and exactly 6 actual landlines for faxes (and we're trying to get rid of those.)
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:16 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't think businesses are going to do away with landlines any time soon, even if they become an anachronism for residential customers.
Still, the point is that people want smartphones. If all major companies use the same kind of agreement where you can do anything to the phone, then you're screwed out of doing anything with the phone.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:18 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Still, the point is that people want smartphones. If all major companies use the same kind of agreement where you can do anything to the phone, then you're screwed out of doing anything with the phone.
People want a lot of things. In a literal sense it is an argument for a law, but it doesn't get us very far.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:21 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
People want a lot of things.
Yes, it's called the market.

I'd ask what your point is but since you don't have one, I won't bother.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:25 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes, it's called the market.

I'd ask what your point is but since you don't have one, I won't bother.
I told you what my point is. It is given that people want things. That isn't in dispute. By itself, it doesn't repudiate the part of this argument if there are adequate substitutes in the market and if that is a sufficient counter.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:28 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I told you what my point is. It is given that people want things. That isn't in dispute. By itself, it doesn't repudiate the part of this argument if there are adequate substitutes in the market and if that is a sufficient counter.
Yes it does, because what people want drive the market and what they want and buy ar smartphones. So that's what they'll have. That's where you have to look for alternatives, not in obsolete technologies no one uses anymore except for specific purposes.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:32 AM   #182
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I think "smart phones" are a bad example to get hung up on because without a network to attach to a smart phone is just a glorified PDA.

But I can, to a degree (NOT to say the manufactors should be able to control everything), see the logic in "Hey we don't want a bunch of hacked, backward engineered, hobby kit, knock off phones on the network" in some cases and to some degree.

Hell online gaming would be impossible if there were a bunch of hacked Xboxes and Playstations online.

When devices start talking to other devices legit questions of security vs functionality do go on the table at least some of the time.

Totally independent devices like tractors... yeah that's a much harder thing to argue. Where is the harm to John Deere if I decided to put a Hemi my carbine harvester, assuming I also assume the risks and liability?
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:33 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yes it does, because what people want drive the market and what they want and buy ar smartphones. So that's what they'll have. That's where you have to look for alternatives, not in obsolete technologies no one uses anymore except for specific purposes.
Why does the fact that people want smartphones require that the alternatives have to be from that? There seems to be a leap being made by the two points that you are leaving out.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:35 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I think "smart phones" are a bad example to get hung up on because without a network to attach to a smart phone is just a glorified PDA.

But I can, to a degree (NOT to say they should be able to do anything), see the logic in "Hey we don't want a bunch of hacked, backward engineered, hobby kit, knock off phones on the network" in some cases and to some degree.

Hell online gaming would be impossible if there were a bunch of hacked Xboxes and Playstations online.

Totally independent devices like tractors... yeah that's a much harder thing to argue. Where is the harm to John Deere if I decided to put a Hemi my carbine harvester, assuming I also assume the risks and liability?
I think the smartphones scenario is good as an example of belz's point regarding obsolete technology. I think that is a good piece to discuss regardless of the network issues.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:45 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Why does the fact that people want smartphones require that the alternatives have to be from that?
What? Did you lose track of the conversation already?

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I think the smartphones scenario is good as an example of belz's point regarding obsolete technology.
Well, my point was not about obsolete technology, so I have to congratulate you there.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:51 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And that's where I'm at with it. Invalidate your warranty? Yeah that's a no-brainer for me.

There is some grey area with things like cell phones where you can't really separate the product and the service, as in sure I can fix my own cell phone but do I have a right for it to go back on the network after I do.
The problem is doing your own repair does not void warranties. If I decide to replace a burnt fuse, why should that void my warranty or prevent me from using a network?
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:53 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
What? Did you lose track of the conversation already?



Well, my point was not about obsolete technology, so I have to congratulate you there.

You said this...

Quote:
because what people want drive the market and what they want and buy ar smartphones. So that's what they'll have. That's where you have to look for alternatives, not in obsolete technologies no one uses anymore except for specific purposes.
It isnt clear why based on what you wrote, I have to look for alternatives where you said I have to look. Why can't the alternative be obsolete? Nothing about people wanting to buy cell phones seems to make that true.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:53 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But I can, to a degree (NOT to say the manufactors should be able to control everything), see the logic in "Hey we don't want a bunch of hacked, backward engineered, hobby kit, knock off phones on the network" in some cases and to some degree.

Hell online gaming would be impossible if there were a bunch of hacked Xboxes and Playstations online
It's not an issue in the PC market.

MS is in the process of letting people with PCs into the XBox market. You will be able to run your XBox games from your PC, according to some sources.
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Old 11th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #189
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
The problem is doing your own repair does not void warranties. If I decide to replace a burnt fuse, why should that void my warranty or prevent me from using a network?
It's not an either or prospect. "Repair" and "Modification" are very general terms that apply to a lot of actions.

I'm not saying if you replace a capacitor you should be black listed, but if you make major modifications in some cases maybe.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:21 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
You said this...



It isnt clear why based on what you wrote, I have to look for alternatives where you said I have to look. Why can't the alternative be obsolete? Nothing about people wanting to buy cell phones seems to make that true.
As I said, you lost track of the conversation. It's impossible to have a fruitful conversation with you.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:29 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
As I said, you lost track of the conversation. It's impossible to have a fruitful conversation with you.
I introduced land lines to the conversation.

What do you think the track of the conversation is? Where is the connective tissue that links your point about wants to the necessity of having to look for alternatives there?
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:32 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Where is the connective tissue that links your point about wants to the necessity of having to look for alternatives there?
You know Bob normal humans don't have to keep track of that.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:36 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
You know Bob normal humans don't have to keep track of that.
I wouldn't know
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:40 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I introduced land lines to the conversation.

What do you think the track of the conversation is?
The point is that besides ridiculous options that aren't going to fly, big telecom and phone companies can block repair and tinkering options for their customers. That's the point. Stop wiggling to make it about something else, Bob.
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Old 11th March 2019, 11:46 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
The point is that besides ridiculous options that aren't going to fly, big telecom and phone companies can block repair and tinkering options for their customers. That's the point. Stop wiggling to make it about something else, Bob.
Since the ridiculous option describes the current situation as it stands (we dont have a right to repair and would have to rely on outdated technology to avoid it under certain circumstances) it appears to be in a current state of flight.
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Old 11th March 2019, 01:15 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
It's not an issue in the PC market.

MS is in the process of letting people with PCs into the XBox market. You will be able to run your XBox games from your PC, according to some sources.
It should be noted that main issue in that case is about Keyboard+Mouse versus Gamepads. (Unless server trusts too much data sent by client... Some games had nice fails in that area)
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Old 11th March 2019, 02:45 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Landlines? Does anyone still have those these days? Will they still have them in 20 years?
In the UK broadband is invariably bundled with a landline, and for certain calls they're cheaper than using a mobile, anyway.
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Old 11th March 2019, 05:46 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Landlines? Does anyone still have those these days? Will they still have them in 20 years?
I do. Cell service is very poor here owing to geography. We have no cable and no wireless. For TV it's either broadcast or satellite, and for internet, though I suppose there might be satellite connections somewhere, land line DSL is the only real option. 20 years is a way off still. We still had dialup and pulse dialing until well into the 2000's.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:17 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's not an either or prospect. "Repair" and "Modification" are very general terms that apply to a lot of actions.

I'm not saying if you replace a capacitor you should be black listed, but if you make major modifications in some cases maybe.
Who get's to decide? Companies like Apple and Tesla would like it to be zero repair. Replacing a cap would, if they had their way, void the warranty. Thankfully, that is currently illegal in the US.
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Old 12th March 2019, 05:20 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Since the ridiculous option describes the current situation as it stands (we dont have a right to repair and would have to rely on outdated technology to avoid it under certain circumstances) it appears to be in a current state of flight.
But it doesn't describe the current situation. Landlines still exist but the market isn't going to switch back to landlines just because of abusive terms of service with smartphones.

Stop playing around.
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