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Old 15th March 2019, 02:07 AM   #241
cullennz
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm sarcastic. When there were examples of Muslim attacks similar to this (Paris, Tolouse, Florida) the usual line was "mental patient", "has no connection to Islam", "don't blame Islam", "you don't understand what they went through" and so on. Israel features prominently. A common trope is that "he's only a terrorist because he isn't white, he wouldn't be called a terrorist if he was white".

I'm using (some might say abusing, but idk) this sad example of a non-Muslim extremist doing what has been a nearly exclusive domain of Muslims for many years to highlight the hypocrycy is reversed. There is no leniency offered because this guy is white or because he targets Muslims, if anything he (or this group, there appear to be many) recieves worse criticism than Muslim terrorists do.

There is nothing wrong in how he is treated, but neither are Muslim extremists deserving of lighter treatment because they're Muslim. That's all I'm saying.

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Is this poster for real or joking?
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:07 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Well, he'll be going to Pare Max. I reckon he'll get non-parole of 50 years. Probably still beats Lundy out, though.

Something like 60% of the blokes in Pare Max are Maori. It's known that at least some Mob and Power blokes have joined islam, and most of that 60% are in one of those gangs.

I suspect his life expectancy inside might be quite short.

I hope they live stream it.

I realise it's an emotional time, but no, just no.

Whatever punishment you think is warranted, it should not be left to the discretion and whims of criminals.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:12 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
The skinhead types in the 80's were around, but they kind of got pushed away to Dunedin, and then pretty much died out, probably due to boredom
Mate, have you been down there lately? The racist element in Chch has been so bad Fijian rugby players have given up and moved away.

Not to mention: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/new...livers-warning

Quote:
Massey University sociologist Paul Spoonley began his research into extreme right wing groups in the early 1980s and was always puzzled as to why so many of them were based in Christchurch...

Christchurch continues to have the dubious honour of being the home to the largest number of extremist and white supremacist individuals and groups in New Zealand, a tradition that is now more than 30 years old.
Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
It has always had a Mongrel Mob presence and other scum gangs, which can get them just as easily
Of course they can, but I just can't see that bloke cruising up to the local Mob chapter and asking if he can buy a gun. Head Hunters, maybe.

It could be he got it through an Aussie gang as well. The Bandidos have a chapter there.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:15 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm sarcastic. When there were examples of Muslim attacks similar to this (Paris, Tolouse, Florida) the usual line was "mental patient", "has no connection to Islam", "don't blame Islam", "you don't understand what they went through" and so on. Israel features prominently. A common trope is that "he's only a terrorist because he isn't white, he wouldn't be called a terrorist if he was white".

I'm using (some might say abusing, but idk) this sad example of a non-Muslim extremist doing what has been a nearly exclusive domain of Muslims for many years to highlight the hypocrycy is reversed. There is no leniency offered because this guy is white or because he targets Muslims, if anything he (or this group, there appear to be many) recieves worse criticism than Muslim terrorists do.

There is nothing wrong in how he is treated, but neither are Muslim extremists deserving of lighter treatment because they're Muslim. That's all I'm saying.

McHrozni
Don't talk crap and don't be part of the self-pitying whines of "but why is it only bad if my side..."

We know that when Muslim extremists and terrorists kill people it is because of their ideology, and we know that is the case here. The fact that some people will obfuscate is no reason to go on a pre-emptive whinefest.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:16 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Mate, have you been down there lately? The racist element in Chch has been so bad Fijian rugby players have given up and moved away.

Not to mention: http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/new...livers-warning





Of course they can, but I just can't see that bloke cruising up to the local Mob chapter and asking if he can buy a gun. Head Hunters, maybe.

It could be he got it through an Aussie gang as well. The Bandidos have a chapter there.
Kyle Chapman is a joke of a bloke Atheist.

He makes minnie mouse look staunch, and has as much chance of getting access to illegal AR 15 as I have
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:18 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I realise it's an emotional time, but no, just no.

Whatever punishment you think is warranted, it should not be left to the discretion and whims of criminals.
Don't be thinking I support the idea. I'm just suggesting what might well happen to him in jail. He's clearly a white supremacist, and not going to be very popular in a completely brown-dominated prison.

The live streaming is just to balance his own.

I wouldn't watch it, just as I won't watch his.

I'd be prepared to estimate his punishment at 50 years non-parole. The record at the moment is 33, for 3 dead, so I'd expect a hefty premium on that.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:19 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm pointing out at the blatant hypocrycy in treating extremists from these two opposing groups. I have yet to see a suggestion his motive is "unknown" (a common feature when a Muslim does it), or that he was mentally ill (ditto), or that he did because of "repression" (guess) or maybe that "we shouldn't judge radical nationalists by his actions", nor will anyone suggest "radical nationalism couldn't have motivated his crime, because otherwise all radical nationalists would go on killing sprees".
Utter bollocks.
The reason we know this was terrorism is because his manifesto was available pretty much straight away.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:20 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
He makes minnie mouse look staunch,...
Agree - he's a little pussy.

The ones who don't want their pics in the paper aren't.

Perpetrator appearing in court tomorrow to face 49 murder charges.

I see someone else has come up with the line about the worst massacre since 1943. Beat ya by hours.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:20 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Don't talk crap and don't be part of the self-pitying whines of "but why is it only bad if my side..."
Not what I'm doing.

Quote:
We know that when Muslim extremists and terrorists kill people it is because of their ideology, and we know that is the case here. The fact that some people will obfuscate is no reason to go on a pre-emptive whinefest.
I'm pointing out those people are dead wrong, always have been. I'm not whining, nor do I think this guy is recieving unfair treatment.

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:21 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Is this poster for real or joking?
If the forum history were to go back in time far enough I'd link to the example posts of that.

Alas, it doesn't (to the best of my knowledge).

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:22 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think that is unfair. Many of those guns are shotguns (duck and goose shooting are popular seasonal sports here) and hunting rifles (again, hunting is a popular sports).
That's true for all civil gun ownership, overall. In some countries more so than others of course.

Quote:
Guns such as handguns and MSSAs are supposed to be difficult to get. If I were a betting man, I would guess that most of his guns were either stolen, or smuggled in or both. I doubt he would have a firearms licence as he would likely fail the "fit and proper person" test.

I guess we are now going to see a whole raft of new firearms restrictions brought in. Every firearm will have to be on a register as well as every firearms owner. And I can tell you, unlike the USA, any new restrictions will have near unanimous support from all parties in the house, and will have the overwhelming support of New Zealanders, even gun owners like me.
It could be, we'll see.

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:26 AM   #252
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Absolutely horrific attack on innocent people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: We're sitting on a ticking bomb. These extreme right wing terrorists are radicalizing through the internet, and due to our collective gaze being directed almost solely on Islamist extremists, the right wing terrorists will fall through the cracks. I think things will get much worse before it gets any better.

Also, who are we going to invade to stop this terror?
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Last edited by uke2se; 15th March 2019 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:28 AM   #253
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Trump Tweets

Breitbart News Network http://bit.ly/2KyoPz9 via @BreitbartNews

Breitbart - Breitbart News Network
Syndicated news and opinion website providing continuously updated headlines to top news and analysis sources.

breitbart.com
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:28 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Also, who are we going to invade to stop this terror?
Australia?
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:33 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Trump Tweets

Breitbart News Network http://bit.ly/2KyoPz9 via @BreitbartNews

Breitbart - Breitbart News Network
Syndicated news and opinion website providing continuously updated headlines to top news and analysis sources.

breitbart.com
Even by Trump standards, that's a weird tweet. He's doing commercials now?
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:34 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Australia?
That's it!

I'm attacking my brothers and sister in Melbourne!
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Source: The America We Deserve, by Donald Trump, p.102 , Jul 2, 2000
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:39 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Absolutely horrific attack on innocent people.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: We're sitting on a ticking bomb. These extreme right wing terrorists are radicalizing through the internet, and due to our collective gaze being directed almost solely on Islamist extremists, the right wing terrorists will fall through the cracks. I think things will get much worse before it gets any better.
I recommend we start at the source and go after the doctrine that incites them itself.

Either that or do what Shidiq Khan said, which can be summarised as: "Feces and terrorism happen".

These are the two approaches, either seek to defeat it where is originates from or ignore it and hope it goes away.

Quote:
Also, who are we going to invade to stop this terror?
Any country giving them, aid, shelter and ideological cover, I would hope.

If that turns out to be USA, we have a problem.

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:40 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Also, who are we going to invade to stop this terror?
Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Australia?
Seconded!

Jacinda Ardern is calling it "New Zealand's darkest day".

Somewhat silly; we've had a lot darker.

Interestingly (to me, anyway) the number of dead is considerably fewer than died on the roads in NZ last month.

I'm getting sick and tired of christians praying for Christchurch. Aside from the irrelevance of it, if it were able to do something, wouldn't the sky-daddy have done acted while they were being shot as they prayed to him?

The fallout from this will be huge, and I'd expect a Commission of Inquiry to be set up double-quick to figure how this bloke slid under all the radars.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:42 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I recommend we start at the source and go after the doctrine that incites them itself.
How do you attack an idea?

Also, just to be clear, which idea is inciting them? I'd say that it's people holding ideas that are inciting them.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:47 AM   #260
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I think from the basics what we have here is one foreigner rocking over, deciding against his original plan of targeting else where and deciding Chch.

2 others who may or may not actually have hurt anyone

He has managed to get guns. The bad type, which take connections to get/smuggle and go under the radar.

So the emphasis at the moment to me is kind of less NZ "Global security" or any other hostile relations between Muslims and others crap, because frankly there isn't much if any, and more how he got the illegal weapons and how come with such a blatant ugly online presence, he was so freely able to head here and carry it out.
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I generally oppose gun control, but I support the ban on assault weapons and I support a slightly longer waiting period to purchase a gun. With today’s Internet technology we should be able to tell within 72-hours if a potential gun owner has a record.

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:54 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Utter bollocks.
The reason we know this was terrorism is because his manifesto was available pretty much straight away.
Florida shooter in 2016 called 911 during the attack to explain his motive - loyalty to ISIS. Despite this it was repeatedly alledged he killed 49 people because he was a closet homosexual, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

Same thing, basically - but the response has been markedly different.

For the record, I think this Christchurch group is recieving the proper treatment, I just think all other 'people' (peopleoids?) like him should too.

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Old 15th March 2019, 02:55 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Don't be thinking I support the idea. I'm just suggesting what might well happen to him in jail.
Fair enough. Apologies.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:56 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
How do you attack an idea?
The same way we attack other stupid if not quite as dangerous ideas (Flat Earth, Creationism, 9/11 Twoofers, etc): By showing the idea is wrong loudly, repeatedly, at all opportunities and with good evience to back it up.

The goal is not to eradicate the idea but to minimize the number of adherents to idea to the point of irrelevance. It will take at least a generation, I assure you.

Quote:
Also, just to be clear, which idea is inciting them? I'd say that it's people holding ideas that are inciting them.
The manifesto I linked to seems to be about fear of Muslims, fear of Muslim domination, hatred of Muslims, desire of Western dominance and such. Basically the same motivators as with Islamic terrorists, just aimed at Muslims and not non-Muslims. They're both much the same.

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Old 15th March 2019, 03:05 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Citation?

Chris B.

added: I've not seen anything to suggest the shooting suspect is a Trump supporter.
Per the manifesto, he supports Trump "as a symbol of renewed white identity and common purpose."

Worryingly, at least from a somewhat local perspective, the perpetrator claims to have been in contact with Anders Breivik and recieved his blessing for the attack. That should set off some alarm bells in Norway, as I'd imagine Breivik is still having communications with the outside world screened.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:07 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I think that is unfair. Many of those guns are shotguns (duck and goose shooting are popular seasonal sports here) and hunting rifles (again, hunting is a popular sports).

Guns such as handguns and MSSAs are supposed to be difficult to get. If I were a betting man, I would guess that most of his guns were either stolen, or smuggled in or both. I doubt he would have a firearms licence as he would likely fail the "fit and proper person" test.

I guess we are now going to see a whole raft of new firearms restrictions brought in. Every firearm will have to be on a register as well as every firearms owner. And I can tell you, unlike the USA, any new restrictions will have near unanimous support from all parties in the house, and will have the overwhelming support of New Zealanders, even gun owners like me.
Unless it is shown that there was a loophole that needs closing, I doubt that we'll see stronger gun laws. We have very strong ones, and the fact is that determined criminals are going to get illegal weapons and magazines because they are determined to get them, and no stronger law is going to prevent it. We might need to crack down more in importation and doing a better job of making sure of what comes in, but until we know how he got hold of them, I think it's all speculation.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:10 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The same way we attack other stupid if not quite as dangerous ideas (Flat Earth, Creationism, 9/11 Twoofers, etc): By showing the idea is wrong loudly, repeatedly, at all opportunities and with good evience to back it up.

The goal is not to eradicate the idea but to minimize the number of adherents to idea to the point of irrelevance. It will take at least a generation, I assure you.



The manifesto I linked to seems to be about fear of Muslims, fear of Muslim domination, hatred of Muslims, desire of Western dominance and such. Basically the same motivators as with Islamic terrorists, just aimed at Muslims and not non-Muslims. They're both much the same.

McHrozni
So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror. Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:16 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror. Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?
It's easier to order drone strikes against "dirty foreigners" rather than your neighbours.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
So we treat it like creationism or 9/11 trutherism? We don't do that with Islamist terror.
We should, I already do.

Quote:
Do you think we should scale back anti-terror operations against Islamist terror?
No, anti-terror operations can stay if they're effective. Of course we can argue ad nauseam whether or not they are effective or if they just create more terrorists in the end. This is not my intent, if the said operations are effective they should stay, if not they should be scaled back (or ended). I'm not making a claim towards either at this point.

The same should apply to other, similar doctrines - such as radical white nationalism. If there are anti-terror operations that would moderate or end it they should be considered at least.

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Old 15th March 2019, 03:17 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by KDLarsen View Post
Worryingly, at least from a somewhat local perspective, the perpetrator claims to have been in contact with Anders Breivik and recieved his blessing for the attack. That should set off some alarm bells in Norway, as I'd imagine Breivik is still having communications with the outside world screened.
It's most likely a lie. As you imagine, all his communication is screened. His lawyer has been on the news saying that there has been no communication.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:19 AM   #270
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It's easier to order drone strikes against "dirty foreigners" rather than your neighbours.
Yup.

It's also easier to send a SWAT team there to arrest them in lieu of drone strikes. This is a significantly perferable alternative, for countless reasons. We also do that to Islamic terrorists at home, I suggest we don't change tack just because these guys believe some other nonesense with similar results.

But if they're taking cover in a third country, sheltered by an ineffective or compilant government and a sympathetic populace, drone strikes could well be an effective way to deal with them. They should be considered, at least as long as drone strikes are used against Islamic extremists.

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Old 15th March 2019, 03:19 AM   #271
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It took Port Arthur for Australia to get serious about gun control and since then we have not had a firearm mass murder. This event will lead to the same outcome in NZ I believe (I am going on comments in this thread about lax gun laws and the wikipedia article which states semi-automatics are easy to obtain).

Semi-automatics and automatics should be banned in NZ and gun registries established. It would be the only good thing which could come out of this tragedy.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:31 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Florida shooter in 2016 called 911 during the attack to explain his motive - loyalty to ISIS. Despite this it was repeatedly alledged he killed 49 people because he was a closet homosexual, ignoring all the evidence to the contrary.

Same thing, basically - but the response has been markedly different.
No it hasn't.

I remember the Florida shootings and it was classed as terrorism in the news.
Much as this is now.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:39 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
No it hasn't.

I remember the Florida shootings and it was classed as terrorism in the news.
Much as this is now.
I'm reffering to stuff like this:

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/1342...hating-gay-man
http://i.imgur.com/Ywwjlio.png

And others. His alledged homosexuality (never proven, eventually disproven) featured prominently on this forum as evidence it wasn't about Islam at all. Some proponents of that theory now even disawow they ever said so.

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Old 15th March 2019, 03:54 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm reffering to stuff like this:

https://newrepublic.com/minutes/1342...hating-gay-man
http://i.imgur.com/Ywwjlio.png

And others. His alledged homosexuality (never proven, eventually disproven) featured prominently on this forum as evidence it wasn't about Islam at all. Some proponents of that theory now even disawow they ever said so.

McHrozni
That's some guy worrying about the tweets of some girls. That's not the media nor anyone important.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:56 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It took Port Arthur for Australia to get serious about gun control and since then we have not had a firearm mass murder. This event will lead to the same outcome in NZ I believe (I am going on comments in this thread about lax gun laws and the wikipedia article which states semi-automatics are easy to obtain).

Semi-automatics and automatics should be banned in NZ and gun registries established. It would be the only good thing which could come out of this tragedy.
Military Style Semi Automatics such as the AR-15 require a special endorsement on your Gun Licence because they are an E class category. You need to have a valid reason for obtaining one.

Long rifle hunting semi-automatics are easier to get, but you still need a valid NZ Gun Licence which means that you need to meet certain upstanding citizen requirements. I doubt that this guy meet those requirements.

Automatics are restricted to military and police.

Until we know how he got the weapons there is no reason to consider changing our laws.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:56 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm reffering to stuff like this:
And?
That's all post the event.
We are currently less than 12 hours into this and you expect to see the post-event analysis already?

You are not comparing like with like.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:19 AM   #277
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And?
That's all post the event.
We are currently less than 12 hours into this and you expect to see the post-event analysis already?
I'm not quite sure what you're reffering to. Years after the Orlando massacre rumors he was a closet homosexual who vented his frustration rather than an Islamic terrorist are still alive and well (albeit bruised by the overwhelming nature of evidence to the contrary).

Here I don't really see anyone doubting the motive, even though available evidence is similar. Some might cheer it, but not doubt it.

Quote:
You are not comparing like with like.
Yeah. I'm comparing a well proven CT that arose within hours of the event and hasn't died after years of evidence to the contrary with basically nothing, because no such nonesense arose in the first place. I'm complaing the two events recieve different alternative explanations and you're claiming ... what exactly?

That they shouldn't be compared because the gay CT in Orlando is many years old? That's the point, yes.

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Old 15th March 2019, 04:21 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
That's it!
I'm attacking my brothers and sister in Melbourne!
Just keep a close eye on your wallet.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:22 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post

Until we know how he got the weapons there is no reason to consider changing our laws.
I don’t agree with this. However the guns used were obtained, Australia has proven that you can eliminate mass shootings by making semi-automatics almost impossible to obtain. PM Howard stared down the gun enthusiasts and won. I hope your PM can do the same.

Spare me the “right to own whatever gun we want” arguments.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:29 AM   #280
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
That's some guy worrying about the tweets of some girls.
Of those four tweets one might qualify as a girl, the other is a woman. One is a community organization and one is I don't know what, something. A person, most like.

Plus one media organization.

Quote:
That's not the media nor anyone important.
If you have a problem with those I can find more important media outlets.

BBC is an important media organization, right?

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-36534693

Investigators are still trying to establish what led a 29-year-old security guard from Florida to murder 49 people and injure dozens more as they partied in popular gay nightclub Pulse.

He called 911 to tell his motive was loyatly to ISIS, it doesn't seem that hard to "establish motive". He said so himself and yet his alledged sexuality (later debunked) recieved significant coverage.

I doubt this - or anything else - will change your mind, which is exactly what I'm reffering to in my 'whining'.

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