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Old 18th November 2017, 08:17 PM   #3281
SOdhner
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sodhner,
- I'm not looking at whether or not a soul exists under materialism. I'm claiming that a self exists under materialism, and I'm arguing that materialism is wrong about the self's mortality.
You say "self" but you mean soul.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The next hurdle. If we were able to reproduce a perfect copy of your brain, we wouldn't reproduce YOU. YOU does not come out of the cells of your brain.
I've said it a few times, I'll say it again. You are thinking of, essentially, sentimental value. It's an understandable thing, but it's not an actual difference in a way that matters to this equation.
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Old 20th November 2017, 06:33 AM   #3282
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I've said it a few times, I'll say it again. You are thinking of, essentially, sentimental value. It's an understandable thing, but it's not an actual difference in a way that matters to this equation.
Not only that, but he agreed that the self is a process, which means he agrees that YOU _does_ come out of the cells of your brain.
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Old 20th November 2017, 07:11 AM   #3283
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Not only that, but he agreed that the self is a process, which means he agrees that YOU _does_ come out of the cells of your brain.
Yeah, he's wrong either way. Either we're talking about an actual objective thing in which case it's a process that comes from your brain and so he's wrong, or we're talking about the subjective thing that is based on the value we assign to it (such as sentimental value) and so he's wrong.

Secret option C, which is where he actually is, is if we're talking about a non-physical but objectively real thing which would be by definition a soul - and in that case he's still wrong because he's supposed to be talking about the materialistic view.

So he's wrong, he's wrong, or he's wrong. I cannot think of a way for him to be correct in this case.
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Old 20th November 2017, 03:23 PM   #3284
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
So he's wrong, he's wrong, or he's wrong.
I'll take D. All of the above.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:41 AM   #3285
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:52 AM   #3286
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
deleted
Why bother?

As far as I can recall, you've rarely bothered to delete or redact anything in the many thousands of times you've made the same monotonous claims. In those exceedingly rare occasions that you have done so, you later re-embrace those same foolish arguments as if nothing had happened.

I'd like to see this statement you willingly deleted. It must have been a real whopper!

Last edited by John Jones; 21st November 2017 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 21st November 2017, 11:54 AM   #3287
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
deleted
Restraint. I like it.

Do that more often.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:04 PM   #3288
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Restraint. I like it.

Do that more often.
Your reply was better.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:08 PM   #3289
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
I cannot think of a way for him to be correct in this case.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
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Touche.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:27 PM   #3290
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Why do you think there's any kind of pool? ...
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Again, something difficult to express effectively. To me, at least, "pool" at least implies a limitation, so an ''unlimited" pool really means no pool. And, in that case the whatever comes out of nowhere.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It comes out of the cells your brain is made of. Those are made out of matter which mostly comes from the food you eat (and food your mother ate).
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The next hurdle. If we were able to reproduce a perfect copy of your brain, we wouldn't reproduce YOU. YOU does not come out of the cells of your brain.

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
We already covered this hurdle. You agreed a perfect copy of my brain would produce a perfect copy of my self. Reproducing my brain would reproduce my self.
Dave,
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out. When above, you said,"You agreed" you referenced the following (I did the hi-lighting):

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
I already said it wouldn't be me. It would be an exact copy if me. It would be exactly like me in every respect. Just like the second load of bread would be exactly like the first loaf of bread. It would be identical to me.

Where we diverge is that you are using a different definition for the word "identical" when it's applied to selves than when applied to everything else. You seem to be implying that if two selves were identical then they would really be the same self in two locations.
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:29 PM   #3291
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Jabba, this isn't any more complicated than the two loaves of bread.

I come out of the cells of my brain.

If you made an exact copy of my brain, an exact copy of me would come out of it.

I do agree that an exact copy of me wouldn't be me (as would anyone who understands the meaning of the word "copy"). I don't agree that this means the brain doesn't produce the self. On the contrary, it's exactly what we would expect if the brain produced the self.
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Old 21st November 2017, 12:33 PM   #3292
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
That's because I think Dave seens through your attempt at equivocation.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:10 PM   #3293
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out.
No, the words are sorted out. The problem is getting you to stop doing such violence to them by trying to make them say what you want them to mean rather than what they mean.

Quote:
IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you
And he has explained several times that the language you're choosing equivocates between cardinality and identity, and he clarifies his intended meaning every time. This is why we tell you to stop using deliberately vague words like "Woluld not be you" or "Would not bring ME back to life." You're quite obviously avoiding the important failure of your argument by insisting on doughy language.
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:36 PM   #3294
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, the words are sorted out. The problem is getting you to stop doing such violence to them by trying to make them say what you want them to mean rather than what they mean.



And he has explained several times that the language you're choosing equivocates between cardinality and identity, and he clarifies his intended meaning every time. This is why we tell you to stop using deliberately vague words like "Woluld not be you" or "Would not bring ME back to life." You're quite obviously avoiding the important failure of your argument by insisting on doughy language.
Don't forget "looking out of 2 sets of eyes"!
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:49 PM   #3295
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post


Dave,
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out. When above, you said,"You agreed" you referenced the following (I did the hi-lighting):

- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -- just what I said (hi-lighted) that you didn't seem to agree with above.
Jabba, do you understand that "1+4=7" is just as wrong as "1 and 4 are 7"?
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Old 21st November 2017, 01:57 PM   #3296
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So, one of our problems is getting our words sorted out.
Jabba,

Our only problem, the only problem, your only problem is your total, complete, and at this point baffling inability to move your "Patented Effective Debate Style" beyond "Just repeat your stance over and over and dishonestly pretend people are agreeing with you when they aren't."
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Old 21st November 2017, 02:02 PM   #3297
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Jabba: 1 + 2 = 7.
Board: No it doesn't.
Jabba: 2 + 1 = 7.
Board: That's the same thing.
Jabba: Okay would you agree that if you add the values of 2 and 1 together you get seven?
Board: Still the same thing.
Jabba: Okay obviously our problem is the wording. Would you agree that 2 and 1 combined would make 7?
Board: No.
Jabba: I see you agree with me.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 06:30 AM   #3298
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- IOW, you said that it would be an exact copy of you, but would not be you -.
Are you still struggling with the meaning of 'copy'?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 07:33 AM   #3299
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I love how not a month ago I was roundly taken for task for suggesting that people are being intentionally dense in discussion and here we are trying to explain that "A copy means the thing is the same" and "1 and 2 aren't the same numbers" to a grown man.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 09:12 AM   #3300
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
I love how not a month ago I was roundly taken for task for suggesting that people are being intentionally dense in discussion and here we are trying to explain that "A copy means the thing is the same" and "1 and 2 aren't the same numbers" to a grown man.
This thread is a special case, I think.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:35 PM   #3301
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, this isn't any more complicated than the two loaves of bread.

I come out of the cells of my brain.

If you made an exact copy of my brain, an exact copy of me would come out of it.

I do agree that an exact copy of me wouldn't be me (as would anyone who understands the meaning of the word "copy"). I don't agree that this means the brain doesn't produce the self. On the contrary, it's exactly what we would expect if the brain produced the self.
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement. Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
- There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there -- i.e., how many different loaves of bread could we make if we never ran out of time or the necessary conditions?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:39 PM   #3302
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Our basic disagreement is this:

Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
It comes out of the cells your brain is made of.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
YOU does not come out of the cells of your brain.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:42 PM   #3303
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement. Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
Right now? You've been saying that for years while ignoring what people point out about those disagreements. The problem is that, no, this isn't your objective. Your objective is clear. Everyone knows it, so how about you drop the act and either go away or discuss this topic like an adult?

Quote:
- There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there
Irrelevant.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 12:55 PM   #3304
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement.
Here they are. That's where they've been for a few months now.

Quote:
Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
I was kind enough to do that for you. Will you please take an hour and, for each of the fatal flaws outlined above, write a sentence or two describing how you will eventually address it in your argument? Thanks.

Quote:
There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there...
Potentiality doesn't work the way you're trying to make it work. It doesn't amount to a denominator that governs whether something will actually exist. This has been proved to you quite a number of times, and you address it only with additional special pleading.

The crux of the disagreement is as godless dave has already outlined: you're trying to make materialism look like the incarnation of a soul. That's not at all how it works. Falsifying something you made up doesn't constitute having reckoned P(E|H) to be a very small number.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:34 PM   #3305
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, this isn't any more complicated than the two loaves of bread.

I come out of the cells of my brain.

If you made an exact copy of my brain, an exact copy of me would come out of it.

I do agree that an exact copy of me wouldn't be me (as would anyone who understands the meaning of the word "copy"). I don't agree that this means the brain doesn't produce the self. On the contrary, it's exactly what we would expect if the brain produced the self.
Dave,
- Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:37 PM   #3306
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?
No. I don't see why they would be. An exact copy of my brain wouldn't be my brain, therefore the self it produced wouldn't be me, it would be an exact copy of me.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:43 PM   #3307
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?
I was going to post a meaningful reply, but then I realized the below would be equally helpful.

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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:49 PM   #3308
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement. Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
- There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there -- i.e., how many different loaves of bread could we make if we never ran out of time or the necessary conditions?
Oh stop it! You haven't agreed with anyone in 5 years. Go watch Rocky and Bullwinkle.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 03:55 PM   #3309
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?

Only if we accept your "one self looking through two sets of eyes" garbage. Which, in case you've forgotten, we don't.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:00 PM   #3310
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Jabba if an exact replica of my brain down to the atomic level was created and that brain was giving identical sensory inputs as the original brain they would be identical any emergent properties, such as consciousness or sense of self, would also be identical.

It would be "two me's" by any reasonable definition of the term.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:00 PM   #3311
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement. Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
- There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there -- i.e., how many different loaves of bread could we make if we never ran out of time or the necessary conditions?
Why do you post this? Its the same thing you have said hundreds of times and you are ignoring the responses.

Why do you post this?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:02 PM   #3312
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
......
It would be "two me's" by any reasonable definition of the term.
BUT........BUT............the second one wouldn't BE the first one.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:04 PM   #3313
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
BUT........BUT............the second one wouldn't BE the first one.
And I have full faith that within a metaphysical certainty there is zero chance I will get an answer substantially different than that from Jabba and that is even assuming the slight chance the Master of Patented Effective Debate graces me with a response at all, which he won't.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:05 PM   #3314
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Why do you post this? Its the same thing you have said hundreds of times and you are ignoring the responses.

Why do you post this?
Well because you see even though it has the exact same content as all his other post it's not the SAME post, so he's not really repeating himself.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:08 PM   #3315
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Hopefully, we're getting down to the "nitty gritties" of our disagreement. Again, my objective right now is to nail down our different basic disagreements.
- There is at least two issues in this 'one' disagreement:#1. How many potential loaves of bread are there -- i.e., how many different loaves of bread could we make if we never ran out of time or the necessary conditions?
Five long years have passed, and you haven't learned a damn thing.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 04:11 PM   #3316
The Sparrow
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Well because you see even though it has the exact same content as all his other post it's not the SAME post, so he's not really repeating himself.
It is frightening that that actually makes sense.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:02 PM   #3317
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?
Would they be separate but identical?
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:02 PM   #3318
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Five long years have passed, and you haven't learned a damn thing.
Wait, we say 'five years' a lot, but... hang on! I missed it! The anniversary was yesterday!

21st November 2012, 01:29 PM:

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I think that I can essentially prove immortality using Bayesian statistics.
Of course then he took another few days to actually post any details, and didn't post any actual formula for like a week. But still, it's an exciting day! We should bake a cake.

So what was Jabba's actual first post, the one that really got the ball rolling? That one was on the 23rd, and - no surprise - it's a blatant example of the Texas Sharpshooter fallacy.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Scene 1:

Say that you find a deck of cards in the closet and decide to play some solitaire or something.

You sit down at the table and turn over the first card. It's an ace of spades. You place the ace back in the deck, shuffle the cards and once again, turn over the first card. This time, it's the ace of diamonds. Hmm. So, you try the same thing again. This time, you get the ace of spades again.

'Wait a minute…' You do it one more time, and this time, you get the ace of hearts.

If you’re paying attention, you’re growing suspicious about this deck you found in the closet. You’re starting to suspect that you don’t have the ordinary deck that you had assumed. But, why is that? Why are you suspicious?

You’re suspicious because the probability of drawing that 'hand' is so small if the deck is a normal deck.

Let’s try that again. But, this time, the first card you draw is a 3 of diamonds, the second is a
Jack of spades, the third is a 9 of clubs and the fourth is a 9 of hearts. In this case, you probably are not suspicious.

But, of course you realize that the prrobability of drawing that hand, given a normal deck, is just as small as the probability of drawing that previous hand…

So, what’s the problem here? Why are you not suspicious of this deck, when you were suspicious of the first one?

It turns out that there are two factors causing you to be suspicious of that first deck -- and one is missing in regard to the second deck. There is nothing about the second hand that sets it apart in such a way as to suggest another plausible hypothesis… If there were, you’d be suspicious of that second deck as well. It’s as simple as that…
So, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of progress. We haven't really gotten past this first issue, that this is all based on the sharpshooter fallacy.
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Old 22nd November 2017, 05:05 PM   #3319
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Aren't the hi-lighted statements contradictory?
No, because Dave intends "be me" first to indicate cardinality only. You start with me. You make a copy of me. The copy isn't me because "me" is the label that refers to the original organism. "Copy" is the label that refers to the newly duplicated organism. "Me" and "copy" are simply labels here, not any sort of metaphysical description.

You are trying very hard to make "be me" mean "contains my soul" or some such. Since there are no souls in materialism, your intended connotation stops right there. When materialists say "be me," the notion of incarnation of a soul is the one thing you can be sure they don't intend.

But another meaning materialists might ascribe to "be me" is "exhibit all the properties of my organism," regardless of how many copies of that organism "be me" might apply to. You'll occasionally hear the materialists in this thread use "be me" in this connotation.

You can see how ambiguous phrases like "be me" cause problems. You keep telling us you're looking to settle on a consensus of meaning. But it seems that no matter how many times I and my colleagues parse this out for you, you keep jerking it back to the same ambiguous phrases so that you can keep equivocating and keep stalling for day after day, week after week, year after year.
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Old 23rd November 2017, 11:44 AM   #3320
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Mod InfoYet another continuation of the thread that will not die has grow to an unwieldy size. It, too, has been split, with the latest continuation appearing here.
Posted By:jsfisher
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