ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags war crime charges , winston churchill , World War II history

Reply
Old 30th November 2017, 06:09 AM   #681
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,404
To be honest, I never thought that the British are particularly guilty of marketing themselves. The whole self-deprecating British sense of humour doesn't really lend itself to some 'rah rah rah, we're number one' kind of marketing. If anything, the British tend to over-acknowledge everyone else, well, at least when you compare them to the USA or especially France.

I mean, even during WW1, the Americans made Pershing just about a national hero -- in spite of being just marginally less incompetent than the likes of the three stooges that were Potiorek, Cadorna and von Hötzendorf -- while in the UK PM David Lloyd George is crediting America almost on every other page of his memoirs, while not giving much credit to Haig and the other British generals. (And mind you, "not giving much credit" is grossly understating it, even by the standards of the British fine art of understatement.)


If anything, after WW2, I find it was France that pissed off everyone else by repeatedly and conspicuously forgetting to mention ANY help from the rest of the world. I mean, when the Allies let Petain enter Paris first after the Germans retreated, his speech said literally that Paris liberated herself, with the help of... the rest of France. No mention of the American and British armies that had gotten him there, the British and American fleets that made the landing possible, etc

In case anyone didn't know when and WHY the whole "the French surrender" meme got started. Yeah, surrendering is understandable there, but when you pretend to have then won the war singlehandedly, you're kinda just begging to have the piss taken out of you.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 30th November 2017 at 06:11 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2017, 07:28 AM   #682
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 56,058
Interestingly, there are six or so banned (now) people posting in just the first two pages.....
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2017, 09:14 AM   #683
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
If anything, after WW2, I find it was France that pissed off everyone else by repeatedly and conspicuously forgetting to mention ANY help from the rest of the world. I mean, when the Allies let Petain enter Paris first after the Germans retreated, his speech said literally that Paris liberated herself, with the help of... the rest of France. No mention of the American and British armies that had gotten him there, the British and American fleets that made the landing possible, etc
I thought it was de Gaulle who entered Paris first in the Second World War in 1944 with the Free French troops. I may be wrong about that. General Juin was a good French General at that time.

Petain was in danger of being executed as a collaborator, like Laval, but he was eventually exiled to an island off France as a so-called First World War hero. I agree this is not on topic with regard to Churchill as an accused war criminal.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 30th November 2017 at 09:18 AM.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 30th November 2017, 09:33 AM   #684
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,404
Ugh, brain-fart on my part. Yeah, de Gaule, obviously.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 05:30 PM   #685
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 56,058
Hate to do this, but it wasn't de Gaule either, Hans had it - de Gaulle!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 1st December 2017, 07:14 PM   #686
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,404
Nah, I didn't have it. I do have this problem -- and I'm sure I bored everyone with mentioning it a couple of times a year -- where pretty much a random word comes out instead of what I was trying to say. I end up proof-reading and correcting a lot of messages to get rid of that. Just the other week I wrote "away and beyond the call of duty" instead of above and beyond, for example.

Ah well...
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 2nd December 2017, 01:18 PM   #687
fuelair
Suspended
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 56,058
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Nah, I didn't have it. I do have this problem -- and I'm sure I bored everyone with mentioning it a couple of times a year -- where pretty much a random word comes out instead of what I was trying to say. I end up proof-reading and correcting a lot of messages to get rid of that. Just the other week I wrote "away and beyond the call of duty" instead of above and beyond, for example.

Ah well...
I like the last one!!!!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 07:31 AM   #688
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
There is an interesting article on the internet about the French General Juin during the second world war which proves Churchill did not win the war on his own. Neither does it prove Churchill was a war criminal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphonse_Juin
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 07:58 AM   #689
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,784
What are you on about now?
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 08:05 AM   #690
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
This thread is about Winston Churchill supposedly being a war criminal and winning the Second World War by writing books and having films made about him. I am just suggesting that is not the pure unadulterated historical truth you plonker
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 08:25 AM   #691
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,784
As I said before, no one, not even Winston himself, thinks he won the war on his own.
I have no idea where you get that idea from?

And what posting the biog of a French general has to do with it.
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 08:55 AM   #692
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 10,140
Wait, this is a thread debunking the idea that Winston Churchill was Superman?

Who ever thought Churchill won the war on his own? That doesn't even make sense.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 09:08 AM   #693
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
Churchill once said that Chamberlain had a choice between war and dishonour and he chose dishonour. That's bullcrap.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 09:36 AM   #694
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,784
OK.
Winston said lots of nonsense things ("soft underbelly" anyone?).
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 03:06 PM   #695
Hubert Cumberdale
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 921
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
This thread is about Winston Churchill supposedly being a war criminal and winning the Second World War by writing books and having films made about him. I am just suggesting that is not the pure unadulterated historical truth you plonker

Absolutely, Winston Churchill did win the war all by himself and he did it by writing books and having films made about him.

That is how the war was really won.

All of this Stalingrad nonsense is just butthurt tankies.
Hubert Cumberdale is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th December 2017, 08:14 PM   #696
Giz
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 7,870
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Churchill once said that Chamberlain had a choice between war and dishonour and he chose dishonour. That's bullcrap.
"You were given the choice between war and dishonor. You chose dishonor and you will have war. That's bullcrap”

Churchill was quite the wordsmith.
Giz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 03:22 AM   #697
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
I don't think Churchill was a war criminal but these recent films about him are not the pure unadulterated truth.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 04:44 AM   #698
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't think Churchill was a war criminal but these recent films about him are not the pure unadulterated truth.
That's not contentious.

There is a reason why people dismiss "the Hollywood treatment of history"
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 06:03 AM   #699
BobTheCoward
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 10,777
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
That's not contentious.

There is a reason why people dismiss "the Hollywood treatment of history"
I don't see why people do that. Works of art are not there to treat history a specific way. There isn't anything to dismiss. It can be viewed as it's own thing.
BobTheCoward is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 10:06 AM   #700
Henri McPhee
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,114
What about FACTS and the historical truth then? Fiction is not reality.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th December 2017, 09:07 PM   #701
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 16,186
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't see why people do that. Works of art are not there to treat history a specific way. There isn't anything to dismiss. It can be viewed as it's own thing.
You are correct, however the, "based on a true story" stichk has been known to blur the line, as have deliberate propaganda efforts.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th December 2017, 01:46 AM   #702
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,782
At least Mondial had a Christmas break now he has someone bumping threads for him
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 06:07 AM   #703
Mondial
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 322
The latest movie about Winston Churchill has Gary Oldman in the lead role -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtJ60u7SUSw
It looks like a propaganda effort to try and polish up his badly tarnished image as more and more people discover what a criminal he really was -
https://crimesofbritain.com/2016/09/...ton-churchill/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10510
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/11...-david-irving/
Mondial is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 31st December 2017, 09:25 AM   #704
kookbreaker
Evil Fokker
 
kookbreaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,417
Awww, the little neo-nazi crowd is upset that their whataboutisms aren't taking.
__________________
www.spectrum-scientifics.com <- My store of science toys, instruments and general fun!

Thanks for helping me win Best Toys in Philly Voter in 2011,2012, and 2014! We won' be discussing the disappointment that was 2013.
kookbreaker is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:16 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.