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Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM   #1521
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just a thought: millions of people throughout time have felt touched by their faith, and moved to great lengths by it.
Millions of people throughout time have faith that..

the ghosts they saw were real
the reptilians from Draco they saw were real
they really saw or were really abducted by aliens in a spaceship
they predicted the future through a premonition or a dream

We have a term for this... its "self-delusion"
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Old Yesterday, 02:20 PM   #1522
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are deliberately missing the point.
No he isn't. You are!

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The question is whether believers believe that God himself can be seen and not whether miracles exist.
And you are doing so again.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Most believers are going to believe that God is there and that he works miracles from time to time but that doesn't mean that they don't believe that God is invisible. And it doesn't mean that any claimed miracle can be verified scientifically.
Ahem, "most" is not "all". I am not letting you get away with goalpost moving.

You said "None of the religions say that you can see God.." this implies both that no religions teach adherents that they can ever see God, and that ALL believers believe they cannot see God.

In this, your claim fails on both counts. Either prove your claim, or walk it back and admit you were wrong.
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Old Yesterday, 07:15 PM   #1523
Thermal
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
The religious will always "miss the point" either intentionally or because of faith induced blindness from my experience. Then some bit of nonsense, like the above about "selfless helping of others" being inspired by their faith, is slipped in as a self evident truth.
Not exactly slipped in; I have said repeatedly that I am offering my experiences with religious people as a counterpoint. They really aren't all bad.

And the primary point of the Dragon (falsifiability, burden of proof, etc) has been talked to death. I offered another tangental angle as a separate point.

Quote:
I have always had difficulty with the notion of good being done in the name of God, but somehow selflessly. Just doesn't make sense to me, although I accept religious people can and do good things. Those kind deeds may not necessarily be done with a view for reward, but that cloud must hang over it.
Again, just my experience: religious people are more likely to be motivated by love, and a sense of worship and service. When they help others, they aren't doing it to get a bigger gold crib in the clouds. They are doing it out of a sense of righteousness. I think it's people outside of their faith that assume the rewards are the motivator. For all the church-yapping I heard in my youth, heaven and rewards weren't talked about much that I recall. It was all about what we are supposed to do here, and now.

Quote:
Christianity owes its remarkable success to the offer of reward - blissful life after death. How that is attained has always been vaguely described, so we have many groups trying to make the grade in different ways, although essentially drawing authority from the same text. At one extreme we have monks denying themselves all earthly pleasures and even self flagellating, and at the other end we have those claiming to be "saved" for just accepting that Jesus died for their sins, while simultaneously enjoying wealth and all manner of earthly pleasures.

Is it any wonder we get such a mixture of differing argument from them?
Yep. And going a step further, Christianity and churches aren't the only god-game in town. Poster smartcooky mentioned New Age hippy dippy types upthread talking about The Universe, which sounds a lot like a god to hear them talk it. I've been thinking of their concept of god right along side of the nun and my grandfather's take on it.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #1524
Lithrael
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I really don't understand your post. The dragon is merely an analogy representing a claim that is unprovable, unfalsifiable and the use of a string of ad hoc reasoning why it cannot be tested. This is similar to unprovable, unfalsifiable beings and the use of a string of ad hoc reasoning to justify positing a being that created the universe.

It is not exactly the same since it is analogy. They simply share these traits.
Yeah, I agree. I was trying to describe the difference between the typical ‘string of ad hoc reasoning to plead away any proposed falsifiable attributes’ argument (which the garage dragon is the analogy for) and the Thermal style ‘what about something with no attributes except it created the universe.’ With that one there is no string of incremental denials thought up to counter people’s suggestions of how you could detect the dragon if it was there. The string, the ad hoc reasons, the endless dodging, is the point of the dragon analogy.

A flat assertion that you can’t rule out the concept of something that’s never interacted with the universe except to create it, is still a misunderstanding of what the null hypothesis is for, but it doesn’t fart around teasing you with the idea that the person proposing it might have some actual reason to think it’s there.

(Really I agree with the poster who occasionally reminds us that some people mistake the ability to make a phrase that makes sense in English, for the possibility that something is conceptually sound.)
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Old Yesterday, 09:23 PM   #1525
Thermal
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Lithrael, I appreciate your honest considering of my position on that, even if we don't entirely agree.

eta: correcting a little: neither I nor anyone I know of claims that a theoretical PM doesn't interact. The whole gist is 'who the hell knows where it might be or what it might do, except that it doesn't seem to be hanging around here for us to gawk at'. At some level, it is somewhat more satisfying than 'everything was always here in one point and then Big Banged just because'. Casualty is an intuitive thing. We trace the origins of the universe back to the instant after the BB, and before that we got 'always and forever in one point, and then spontaneous expansion to now'. It's not a long ways from a creation theory.
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Last edited by Thermal; Yesterday at 10:00 PM.
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Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM   #1526
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
No the question was and is whether the "Abrahamic religions" claim a god exists that interacts with the world in ways people can detect.
Wow. That takes strawmanning up to a whole new level. Who would have thought that "invisible" meant that?
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Old Yesterday, 09:36 PM   #1527
psionl0
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Ahem, "most" is not "all". I am not letting you get away with goalpost moving.
OK. Some sects teach that God can be seen (usually with some rider about "faith").

Happy?
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Old Today, 12:25 AM   #1528
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Just a thought: millions of people throughout time have felt touched by their faith, and moved to great lengths by it. You have people who selflessly help others in the name of the Invisible Dragon?

And before we go to appeal to popularity, no. Millions of people who claim to act on a spiritual prompting should at least be taken as evidence that there is something going on. More credible than one random claim of a monster in a carport that no one believes in. Claiming mass hysteria over the ages is stretching things a little thin.
Indeed there is "something going on" - it's called "delusional thinking".
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