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Old 10th January 2018, 11:13 AM   #1481
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Brokers were doing something exactly similar in the 1929 boom.
... a great deal of speculative trading was based on credit, what was known as "margin buying". An investor during the 1920s could purchase stock for cash or use his available cash as a ten percent downpayment or margin on a more sizeable purchase with ninety percent financed on loans from stockbrokers. This allowed investors to purchase ten times as much stock as they had money to pay for.

In the 1980s I heard it been sold on the radio as "gearing". If the stock moved up by 2% you got a 20% return if one had a 10x gearing. They never told people that if it moved down by 2% one lost 20% - and then would have to pay in the money to cover the losses.

I have often wondered how much humans have changed in their ability to reason and calculate. Apart from learning, are our brains much the same as 10,000 years ago? Given the repeats of scams and rip-offs it would seem that not much has changed since the time of the Egyptians. The snake oil is always just new and improved, or a new wonder discovery. A new paradigm.

Quote:
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/paradigm

The word paradigm comes up a lot in the academic, scientific, and business worlds. A new paradigm in business could mean a new way of reaching customers and making money. In education, relying on lectures is a paradigm: if you suddenly shifted to all group work, that would be a new paradigm. When you change paradigms, you're changing how you think about something.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:23 AM   #1482
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
None.

There is no indication that the bitcoin price cycles won't continue as they have done for the last 8 years (for a few years anyway). However, technology and the finance market change so rapidly that there is no telling what the future holds. As always, "caveat emptor".

And if I buy a Kruger rand? Is my investment safer? If I take it to any gas station in a crisis I will likely get a tankful.

BTW - there are times where one can fairly reliably tell the future. A bus has lost it brakes and is headed for a cliff. Given the law of gravity, most people could tell that it will not end well. Crypto is headed for a digital cliff, and given the fundamentals and "laws" of economics, most can tell it also will not end well.
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Old 10th January 2018, 03:08 PM   #1483
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is just part of the normal ups and downs of bitcoin prices.

Everybody who has ever said "bitcoin will never trade above $X again" has been wrong. I have no reason to believe that you have picked it this time.
This time the news cycle is different, I know that as someone who took little notice previously, but I wouldn't bet body parts we've seen the last high. Markets can be 50% overvalued on the way to being 200% overvalued.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:00 PM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Brokers were doing something exactly similar in the 1929 boom.
... a great deal of speculative trading was based on credit, what was known as "margin buying". An investor during the 1920s could purchase stock for cash or use his available cash as a ten percent downpayment or margin on a more sizeable purchase with ninety percent financed on loans from stockbrokers. This allowed investors to purchase ten times as much stock as they had money to pay for.
What are you trying to prove here? There are many more ways and opportunities to leverage investments today than existed in 1929. In fact, international movements of money have little to do with imports and exports any more. It is all financial derivatives. The whole world is built on a house of cards.
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Old 10th January 2018, 06:15 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And if I buy a Kruger rand? Is my investment safer? If I take it to any gas station in a crisis I will likely get a tankful.
If your thorough research shows that the kruger rand is an extremely stable currency then I won't argue with you. All I can say is that the standard deviation of how much petrol you could buy (directly or indirectly) with bitcoin in a year's time would be much higher than with a kruger rand.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
BTW - there are times where one can fairly reliably tell the future. A bus has lost it brakes and is headed for a cliff. Given the law of gravity, most people could tell that it will not end well.
duh.
Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Crypto is headed for a digital cliff, and given the fundamentals and "laws" of economics, most can tell it also will not end well.
Unless you can identify what has suddenly become defective about bitcoin (but was working fine before) this is just a stupid non-sequitur.
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Old 10th January 2018, 09:44 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What are you trying to prove here? There are many more ways and opportunities to leverage investments today than existed in 1929. In fact, international movements of money have little to do with imports and exports any more. It is all financial derivatives. The whole world is built on a house of cards.
The only solid predictable thing in this world is bitcoin, eh?
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:14 PM   #1487
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I point this out not because I support a digital gold standard but just to point out how way off course your ranting is.
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Old 10th January 2018, 10:19 PM   #1488
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
(snip)
Unless you can identify what has suddenly become defective about bitcoin (but was working fine before) this is just a stupid non-sequitur.
Nope. Bitcoin gets "sold" as an amazing substitute for fiat money. The bus climbs the hill. People start to learn more about the lack of value and stability of bitcoin. The bus starts downhill. People panic about owning valueless bitcoin. The bus has lost it's brakes. The cliff looms large ahead.

The complexity is hiding the problems with bitcoin so the panic starts with vague worrying and the sheep mill about. The value bounces up and down before the sheep stampede for the exit.
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Old 10th January 2018, 11:26 PM   #1489
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Warren Buffet has no position in cryptos. They will end badly he states, which is the least surprising thing he ever said.

Peter Thiel invested 20 million last year, he is a billionaire, so the investment is statistically irrelevant.

I think the crash is happening now, technically, fundamentally.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11973270
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Old 11th January 2018, 12:19 AM   #1490
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Nope. Bitcoin gets "sold" as an amazing substitute for fiat money. The bus climbs the hill. People start to learn more about the lack of value and stability of bitcoin. The bus starts downhill. People panic about owning valueless bitcoin. The bus has lost it's brakes. The cliff looms large ahead.
Still an invalid analogy. There are no brakes to speak of in bitcoin. The lack of stability in bitcoin was known right from the get go. The cliff is purely a figment of your imagination.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The complexity is hiding the problems with bitcoin so the panic starts with vague worrying and the sheep mill about. The value bounces up and down before the sheep stampede for the exit.
There is no shortage of fools looking to get rich quick. However these are not the sheep.

The sheep are the ones who say, "Something is bad therefore bitcoin is bad".
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Old 11th January 2018, 12:24 AM   #1491
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Warren Buffet has no position in cryptos. They will end badly he states, which is the least surprising thing he ever said.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...ectid=11973270

You can always tell how seriously to take somebody by how much they back themselves:
Quote:
The Chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway refused to take a short position on Bitcoin.
"We don't own any, we're not short any, we'll never have a position in them," he said.
"I get into enough trouble with things I think I know something about", he said.
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Last edited by psionl0; 11th January 2018 at 12:25 AM.
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Old 11th January 2018, 01:33 AM   #1492
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South Korea plans to ban trading in cryptos - causes widespread sell-offs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-s...-idUSKBN1F002A
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:23 AM   #1493
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Still an invalid analogy. There are no brakes to speak of in bitcoin. The lack of stability in bitcoin was known right from the get go. The cliff is purely a figment of your imagination.


There is no shortage of fools looking to get rich quick. However these are not the sheep.

The sheep are the ones who say, "Something is bad therefore bitcoin is bad".
The cliff is when a stock or currency goes into free-fall. Down is the only option.

On a coin price index the first 100 listed currencies are mostly down by about 5 to 15%. Only 5 are up by about 1 to 4%.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:33 AM   #1494
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The cliff is when a stock or currency goes into free-fall. Down is the only option.
Do you mean like in 2011 when bitcoin went into free fall and was never heard from again?
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:18 AM   #1495
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Do you mean like in 2011 when bitcoin went into free fall and was never heard from again?
So I looked for the 2011 fall on the internet and found a good article:

Still true today. Free fall a-coming - just bigger, much bigger, ginormomous in fact.

Quote:
https://www.wired.com/2011/11/mf_bitcoin/

When Nakamoto’s paper came out in 2008, trust in the ability of governments and banks to manage the economy and the money supply was at its nadir. The US government was throwing dollars at Wall Street and the Detroit car companies. The Federal Reserve was introducing “quantitative easing,” essentially printing money in order to stimulate the economy. The price of gold was rising. Bitcoin required no faith in the politicians or financiers who had wrecked the economy—just in Nakamoto’s elegant algorithms. Not only did bitcoin’s public ledger seem to protect against fraud, but the predetermined release of the digital currency kept the bitcoin money supply growing at a predictable rate, immune to printing-press-happy central bankers and Weimar Republic-style hyperinflation.

“Bitcoin enthusiasts are almost evangelists,” Bruce Wagner says. “They see the beauty of the technology. It’s a huge movement. It’s almost like a religion. On the forum, you’ll see the spirit.

Beyond the most hardcore users, skepticism has only increased. Nobel Prize-winning economist Paul Krugman wrote that the currency’s tendency to fluctuate has encouraged hoarding. Stefan Brands, a former ecash consultant and digital currency pioneer, calls bitcoin “clever” and is loath to bash it but believes it’s fundamentally structured like “a pyramid scheme” that rewards early adopters. “I think the big problems are ultimately the trust issues,” he says. “There’s nothing there to back it up. I know the counterargument, that that’s true of fiat money, too, but that’s completely wrong. There’s a whole trust fabric that’s been established through legal mechanisms.”
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Old 11th January 2018, 07:50 AM   #1496
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Unless you can identify what has suddenly become defective about bitcoin (but was working fine before) this is just a stupid non-sequitur.
What has become defective is concern that the price has reached such an elevated level that it will soon cease to rise further. The only thing that "works" about Bitcoin is its role as an object of speculation, and that will end at some maximum price. Have we passed that? Nobody knows. But Bitcoin owners want to get out before the crash, after they have offloaded their holdings to the simpletons and libertarian ideologues who may still want to buy these things.

Here's a question for you: in 1720, what suddenly became defective about South Sea Company shares when they reached £1,000, but was working fine before? That question doesn't look like a stupid non-sequitur to me.
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:05 AM   #1497
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So I looked for the 2011 fall on the internet and found a good article:
Except that the article says nothing about 2011 whatsoever. It is just opinions from Johnny Smith about something completely different.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Still true today. Free fall a-coming - just bigger, much bigger, ginormomous in fact.
It doesn't become fact just because you make it up. 2011 has proven you completely and utterly wrong.
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:21 AM   #1498
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Ironic news: the North American Bitcoin Conference is no longer accepting bitcoin for admission.
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Old 11th January 2018, 09:24 AM   #1499
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What has become defective is concern that the price has reached such an elevated level that it will soon cease to rise further.
Like I said in the post above: something doesn't become a fact just because you made it up.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Here's a question for you: in 1720, what suddenly became defective about South Sea Company shares when they reached £1,000, but was working fine before?
Puh-leeze! South Sea got its value on the strength of its monopoly on trade with South America even though the War of the Spanish Succession rendered any trade moot. That didn't stop the company promoting "extravagant rumours" about its trade prospects in an attempt to pump up its share price.

The maintained a veneer of respectability by trading its shares for government debt but that could only work as long as its share price continued to rise. Ultimately when the truth was known about its trade prospects, the house of cards fell down.

This fraud has nothing whatsoever to do with bitcoin today but in your mind, South Sea was bad therefore bitcoin is bad.

Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
That question doesn't look like a stupid non-sequitur to me.
Now you know that it absolutely is.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:09 PM   #1500
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Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy View Post
Ironic news: the North American Bitcoin Conference is no longer accepting bitcoin for admission.
It sounds like an Onion article, but it's clear why they won't use Bitcoin.

It's impossible to do business with a currency this volatile.
Steam also dropped Bitcoin.
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Old 11th January 2018, 02:39 PM   #1501
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With bitcoin trading at 13161 there has been just one daily close lower since december 7. This in itself means little, but the news cycle keeps deteriorating with Warren Buffet laughing at bitcoin. It really does look an urgent matter to cash up bitcoin. Only a tiny fraction of holders can ever convert to greenbacks if I understand the concept.
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Old 11th January 2018, 04:27 PM   #1502
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
With bitcoin trading at 13161 there has been just one daily close lower since december 7. This in itself means little, but the news cycle keeps deteriorating with Warren Buffet laughing at bitcoin. It really does look an urgent matter to cash up bitcoin. Only a tiny fraction of holders can ever convert to greenbacks if I understand the concept.
Why would that be? Too many people cashing out resembling a bank run on the exchanges?

I've seen several websites claim that 4% of holders own 90% of the Bitcoins out there. If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, these guys are the Madoffs.

Can anybody confirm this statistic?

https://howmuch.net/articles/bitcoin...h-distribution
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Old 11th January 2018, 05:54 PM   #1503
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
Why would that be? Too many people cashing out resembling a bank run on the exchanges?

I've seen several websites claim that 4% of holders own 90% of the Bitcoins out there. If Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme, these guys are the Madoffs.

Can anybody confirm this statistic?

https://howmuch.net/articles/bitcoin...h-distribution
What we don't know is the average price at which these various holdings were acquired, so if the motive for holding is speculative capital gain, we don't know what an x% holding is "worth". Was it bought at a fraction of a dollar per coin, or at 3 dollars, or at 19 thousand dollars?

In the case of Madoff's swindle the motive for holding was a pretty stable return of twelve or so percent per year. Not even the appearance of an emolument like that is enjoyed by holders of cryptos.


Now trading just under $13,000.

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Old 11th January 2018, 08:28 PM   #1504
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It sounds like an Onion article, but it's clear why they won't use Bitcoin.

It's impossible to do business with a currency this volatile.
Steam also dropped Bitcoin.
If you read the article you will find the real reason. At current prices, bitcoin transaction fees are too high.
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:11 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you read the article you will find the real reason. At current prices, bitcoin transaction fees are too high.

At ANY bitcoin price, the fees are high per TRANSACTION.

Low fees were another myth about bitcoin being the common man's coin.

It is also taking too long to clear the transactions - one more myth that they are quick and easy.
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Old 11th January 2018, 10:47 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
At ANY bitcoin price, the fees are high per TRANSACTION.

Low fees were another myth about bitcoin being the common man's coin.

It is also taking too long to clear the transactions - one more myth that they are quick and easy.
All strawman arguments put up by anti-bitcoiners.

Everybody else knows that it takes at least 10 minutes to get a payment confirmed (1 hour if you want the confirmation to be absolute) and that depends on what you offer as a transaction fee. Everybody else also knew that as the block rewards decrease and the number of transactions increased that the transaction fees would also increase.

On the transaction time front, you can't pay for your groceries at the supermarket with bitcoin (unless the supermarket is willing to accept 0 confirmations) but bitcoin is a darn sight faster (and only recently just as costly) than an international telegraphic transfer which can take weeks. (International telegraphic transfer was the only way that I could get money from overseas several years ago).
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Old 12th January 2018, 01:40 AM   #1507
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What we don't know is the average price at which these various holdings were acquired, so if the motive for holding is speculative capital gain, we don't know what an x% holding is "worth". Was it bought at a fraction of a dollar per coin, or at 3 dollars, or at 19 thousand dollars?
We don't know that, but it is far more likely that they were acquired when they were cheap then when they were expensive.

The current market cap is 230 billion dollars, 90% of that is in the hands of only 4% of the holders. And I suspect that we're talking about 4% of the wallets, not people. It stands to reason that people who have a lot of Bitcoin would spread these out over multiple wallets. So, that makes the elite of Bitcoin holders a very small group of very rich people indeed.
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Old 12th January 2018, 01:48 AM   #1508
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
All strawman arguments put up by anti-bitcoiners.

Everybody else knows that it takes at least 10 minutes to get a payment confirmed (1 hour if you want the confirmation to be absolute) and that depends on what you offer as a transaction fee. Everybody else also knew that as the block rewards decrease and the number of transactions increased that the transaction fees would also increase.

On the transaction time front, you can't pay for your groceries at the supermarket with bitcoin (unless the supermarket is willing to accept 0 confirmations) but bitcoin is a darn sight faster (and only recently just as costly) than an international telegraphic transfer which can take weeks. (International telegraphic transfer was the only way that I could get money from overseas several years ago).

In Africa there is a cellphone service where people can transfer their cash almost instantly between countries. I can pay for my groceries with confidence with a bank debit card.

People in England are surprised when a South African makes a card payment and his cell-phone rings to alert him to the payment going through.

This is just a matter of technology catching up. Not some scheme run by a bunch of shadowy unknowns who can change the rules as they (who is they anyway?) feel like. And by "exchanges" who can set the rules as to when they pay in fiat currency. If they don't run away with your money first.

I personally think the blockchain concept is great. But not cryptocurrency.

Another myth "Bitcoin is the first decentralized currency". No it is not. Gold is and still is.
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Old 12th January 2018, 02:04 AM   #1509
Eddie Dane
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
In Africa there is a cellphone service where people can transfer their cash almost instantly between countries. I can pay for my groceries with confidence with a bank debit card.

People in England are surprised when a South African makes a card payment and his cell-phone rings to alert him to the payment going through.

This is just a matter of technology catching up. Not some scheme run by a bunch of shadowy unknowns who can change the rules as they (who is they anyway?) feel like. And by "exchanges" who can set the rules as to when they pay in fiat currency. If they don't run away with your money first.

I personally think the blockchain concept is great. But not cryptocurrency.

Another myth "Bitcoin is the first decentralized currency". No it is not. Gold is and still is.
I recently talked to a guy who works in Africa, I think it may have been Kenya. Smartphones have effectively made the carriers the biggest banks in the country. People not only transfer money from phone-to-phone, they also crowdfund using social networks. So, if grandma needs an operation, you get friends and family to chip in.

I regret not asking him what currency they used.

The question is; do you need something like bitcoin for this? You could use digital dollars or some variation of Airmiles, litecoin or whatever.

The jury is very much out on this and it is clear that things are shifting. But in the end, money is a trust issue and I suspect that countries will be more trusted than decentralised currencies (but this is a human psychology issue and attitudes may change completely). I think that a Coin issued by a huge blue-chip corporation might work too. I'm thinking Google, Apple, IBM.
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Old 12th January 2018, 02:08 AM   #1510
Craig B
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I personally think the blockchain concept is great. But not cryptocurrency.

Another myth "Bitcoin is the first decentralized currency". No it is not. Gold is and still is.
Why gold? What about earlier standards like silver, which was the basis of many currencies by weight.

Or cowrie shells, if it comes to that.
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:05 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I recently talked to a guy who works in Africa, I think it may have been Kenya. Smartphones have effectively made the carriers the biggest banks in the country. People not only transfer money from phone-to-phone, they also crowdfund using social networks. So, if grandma needs an operation, you get friends and family to chip in.

I regret not asking him what currency they used.

The question is; do you need something like bitcoin for this? You could use digital dollars or some variation of Airmiles, litecoin or whatever.

The jury is very much out on this and it is clear that things are shifting. But in the end, money is a trust issue and I suspect that countries will be more trusted than decentralised currencies (but this is a human psychology issue and attitudes may change completely). I think that a Coin issued by a huge blue-chip corporation might work too. I'm thinking Google, Apple, IBM.
But euros greenbacks are trusted by all. And they have infinitessimal fees at the community level.

Will a consortium pay a trillion for cryptos?
Oh wait, a trillion whats?
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:20 AM   #1512
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The algo just said buy bitcoin.
Last 13919

That is computer driven, no emotion.....
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:22 AM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
The question is; do you need something like bitcoin for this? You could use digital dollars or some variation of Airmiles, litecoin or whatever.
Ideally you would have a blockchain technology based on the national currency. If you could transfer currency between your bank account and your digital wallet then cash would become near obsolete. You would probably need a consensus model (like ripple) to avoid the power consumption problems that bitcoin engenders.

Unfortunately, the banks won't go for it. I have seen proposals for central banks to issue digital wallets but they are proposing something that is even more centralized than the current banking system.
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Old 12th January 2018, 03:25 AM   #1514
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This beast is driven by greed.
Greed we all suffer from, so give it reign, it will end badly but when?
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Old 12th January 2018, 06:45 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why gold? What about earlier standards like silver, which was the basis of many currencies by weight.

Or cowrie shells, if it comes to that.

You are right about silver. I thought of mentioning it, but gold was the accepted "gold standard" of the ancient world, and still is today.

China backs its reserve currency (trying to take over from the dollar in oil sales with Russia) by saying you can exchange it for real gold if you wish.
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Old 12th January 2018, 06:55 AM   #1516
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
I recently talked to a guy who works in Africa, I think it may have been Kenya. Smartphones have effectively made the carriers the biggest banks in the country. People not only transfer money from phone-to-phone, they also crowdfund using social networks. So, if grandma needs an operation, you get friends and family to chip in.

I regret not asking him what currency they used.

The question is; do you need something like bitcoin for this? You could use digital dollars or some variation of Airmiles, litecoin or whatever.

The jury is very much out on this and it is clear that things are shifting. But in the end, money is a trust issue and I suspect that countries will be more trusted than decentralised currencies (but this is a human psychology issue and attitudes may change completely). I think that a Coin issued by a huge blue-chip corporation might work too. I'm thinking Google, Apple, IBM.

In South Africa the tribal people have long used "stokvels" as a savings and as an insurance. One in every two black adults. They pool their money, and then a "committee" invests it in a savings bank like the Post Office where it is very secure. Or keep it in a safe place.

They then pay out for funerals or house purchases and the like. There are many different types, and some professionals try to make a business out of it by collecting "fees".

The investors will suffer if they cross the community. They do not have the assets to run and hide.

They use the local currency.
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Old 12th January 2018, 06:57 AM   #1517
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
This beast is driven by greed.
Greed we all suffer from, so give it reign, it will end badly but when?

There are some exceptions to greed. Quite a few Christians I know of. And me.

Otherwise I agree.
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Old 12th January 2018, 10:05 AM   #1518
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
It sounds like an Onion article, but it's clear why they won't use Bitcoin.

It's impossible to do business with a currency this volatile.
Steam also dropped Bitcoin.
If you took the time to actually read the article you linked, you would notice that the reason was "network fees and congestion", not volatility.
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Old 12th January 2018, 10:12 AM   #1519
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Why gold? What about earlier standards like silver, which was the basis of many currencies by weight.
This is actually a good point. In fact, the more I learn, the more I realize that the demonetization of silver by the Coinage Act of 1873, often referred to as the crime of 1873, was perhaps the most devastating blow to sound money in the United States. Silver was known as the "money of the people", and this act at once demonetized it, shrinking the money supply and devastating the economy, as well as concentrating monetary power in the hands of elites (gold, and the "gold standard").
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Old 12th January 2018, 11:08 AM   #1520
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Originally Posted by Tippit View Post
This is actually a good point. In fact, the more I learn, the more I realize that the demonetization of silver by the Coinage Act of 1873, often referred to as the crime of 1873, was perhaps the most devastating blow to sound money in the United States. Silver was known as the "money of the people", and this act at once demonetized it, shrinking the money supply and devastating the economy, as well as concentrating monetary power in the hands of elites (gold, and the "gold standard").
Silver was losing value against gold. Various agencies demonetised it; not only the USA.

Here's the Latin Monetary UnionWP
In 1873 the value of silver dropped significantly, followed by a sharp increase in silver imports in the LMU countries, particularly in France and Belgium.[12] By 1873, the decreasing value of silver made it profitable to mint silver in exchange for gold at the Union's standard rate of 15.5 ounces to 1. Indeed, in all of 1871 and 1872 the French mint had received just 5,000,000 francs of silver for conversion to coin, but in 1873 alone received 154,000,000 francs. Fearing an influx of silver coinage, the member nations of the Union agreed in Paris on January 30, 1874, to limit the free conversion of silver temporarily. By 1878, with no recovery in the silver price in sight, minting of silver coinage was suspended absolutely
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