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Tags bible , hell , nde , near death experience

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Old 17th May 2010, 05:29 PM   #41
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I saw one guy interviewed who claimed his NDE was of hell and he was of course, now on a mission for Jesus to save people. The first thing I wondered was which anesthetic had the guy had, and sure enough, he had had ketamine. Many patients experience severe nightmares under ketamine anesthesia.

Poor guy, talk about the long term effects of a drug side effect: a lifetime delusion.
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Old 17th May 2010, 06:40 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
No, no!

Take it back!

I love Bradbury. I won't have him associated with these cretins, even in a joke.
Yeah it's hardly likely that he has even heard of the book let alone read it.
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Old 17th May 2010, 06:57 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Yeah it's hardly likely that he has even heard of the book let alone read it.

Though he'd probably approve of the official attitude towards books in Fahrenheit 451.
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Old 18th May 2010, 07:43 AM   #44
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There is one thing about NDE stories that I don't understand.

Assuming they are dream-like hallucinatory experiences, why are they so coherent? Why aren't they, as a rule, more fantastical, the way dreams are?

It seems like NDE stories are usually quite logical and realistic to the experiencer, without the strange wanderings into nonsense that usually eventually happens in dreams.

I mean, in a dream you would find yourself going through a tunnel and come out and all might be quite mystical for a time but then you'd be in a field and the being of light would turn into a refrigerator, and then suddenly your boss appears but she's 10-feet tall and ... dream-like stuff.

The link I gave earlier does mention a few NDEs with fanstastical elements (riding in a chariot through the sky, etc.). But on the whole NDEs seem pretty coherent.

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I saw one guy interviewed who claimed his NDE was of hell and he was of course, now on a mission for Jesus to save people. The first thing I wondered was which anesthetic had the guy had, and sure enough, he had had ketamine. Many patients experience severe nightmares under ketamine anesthesia.

Poor guy, talk about the long term effects of a drug side effect: a lifetime delusion.
Do you remember which guy that was?

Also, do you know when the use of ketamine is generally indicated? It seems to me that a lot of cardiac patients experience the hellish experiences, so I'm just curious if it's commonly used in cardiac patients. Is it used in surgery?
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Old 18th May 2010, 06:56 PM   #45
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http://www.amazon.com/Evidence-After...12&sr=1-1#noop
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Old 18th May 2010, 08:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by 154 View Post

What was the point of that link?
Are you on commission?
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Old 18th May 2010, 08:57 PM   #47
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If they are on this side of the sod,then they didn't die...just a bad attack of the vapors.
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Old 19th May 2010, 12:02 AM   #48
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Surely, you would only see Hell, given that it really existed, if you were dead. These people weren't dead, near death is not death.

I think those that say it is societal conditioning that determines what you experience in these scenarios, are correct.

I am interested in ouija efects, and have read quite a bit about the subject, but do not believe it is anything other than an ideometer effect from internalised neural creativity. From what I have read and personally experienced during ouija games I am convinced that ouija can be all things to all people. For example, if you are interested in local history you will get feedback pertaining to local history. If however, you have been pre-conditioned and warned about the dangers of ouija from religious people, an individual will often experience demonic and other nightmarish effects.

Surely, NDEs are something similar.
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Old 19th May 2010, 05:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
There is one thing about NDE stories that I don't understand.

Assuming they are dream-like hallucinatory experiences, why are they so coherent? Why aren't they, as a rule, more fantastical, the way dreams are?
When you are talking NDE, I am assuming that you or they talking about the heart stopping. While a person will experience a period of unconsciousness, the other senses may still be working. The effects are similar to a light dream-state where you can sort of hear what's going on around you and it becomes part of your dream. Not all dreams are fantastical and the lighter the dream state, the less likely your imagination is at play.
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Old 19th May 2010, 06:44 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
When you are talking NDE, I am assuming that you or they talking about the heart stopping. While a person will experience a period of unconsciousness, the other senses may still be working. The effects are similar to a light dream-state where you can sort of hear what's going on around you and it becomes part of your dream. Not all dreams are fantastical and the lighter the dream state, the less likely your imagination is at play.
Thank you. That's an interesting point and makes good sense. I've experienced light dream states like that myself, especially right before awakening, and you're right - they are much more realistic, there is little that is nonsensical, and I am usually very aware.
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Old 19th May 2010, 07:59 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
There is one thing about NDE stories that I don't understand.

Assuming they are dream-like hallucinatory experiences, why are they so coherent? Why aren't they, as a rule, more fantastical, the way dreams are?
I expect it is that, like dreams, the half life of detail is short, and the few key images/experiences last longer, and are what they can both remember well enough, and describe, as time goes on.

I still remember a few very vivid dreams, but not their entirety. I mostly remember a few very disturbing images.

DR
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Old 19th May 2010, 08:39 AM   #52
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First off the most logical and likely explanation is that they are lying, simply making it up.

But I also see a parallel to the “past life regression” claims made by WOOs

As in I was Cleopatra’s handmaid or I was a warrior in the city of Atlantis, never I grew turnips in France in 1789 and then I died.

It’s the same with Christians, they believe they’ve had a rebirth of their lives, but that past life was more than likely very boring and non evil, so where is the “awe” value in just being a snotty kid who didn’t like to go to church, change that to a Satan worshiping, heavy metal head, don’t just get sick and fear your own mortality when you can have a NDE and return from hell.
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Old 19th May 2010, 09:15 AM   #53
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As if we didn't have enough trouble while alive! People who believe such a thing as eternal torture and still worhip such a deity are doing it out of terror. If not, then their whole value system is screwed.

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Old 20th May 2010, 06:45 AM   #54
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I've read the 'dull, turnip growing' past life accounts. I don't recall from where, but they are out there. One woman spoke of a past life being a lady who died exhausted, after having a bunch of children.
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Old 20th May 2010, 07:14 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
There is one thing about NDE stories that I don't understand.

Assuming they are dream-like hallucinatory experiences, why are they so coherent? Why aren't they, as a rule, more fantastical, the way dreams are?
Isn't a "soul" going to heaven or hell after dying pretty fantastical in and of itself?
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Old 20th May 2010, 07:27 AM   #56
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I know this is just one person's opinion, but in my experiences with ordinary people undergoing past life regressions I don't recall anyone who recalled anything other than a fairly mundane series of past lives. Except for Sylvia Browne herself, who as I recall, said she'd been the virgin Mary. I wish I still had the trance tape where she said that. I wonder if it's more common for famous people to think they've been someone famous in the past, so we just hear more about them!

At any rate, I agree that some people seem to be lying about their near-death experiences - Dannion Brinkley, for example, clearly has some issues with dishonesty. But I think there are likely others who are sincere. Howard Storm is one example of someone who strikes me as sincere. Based on his NDE, he quit his job as a successful university professor to become a pastor. His daughter was on Unsolved Mysteries and said she wasn't sure personally if she believed in his experience, but that being around him it was hard not to, he believed it so strongly himself.
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Old 20th May 2010, 09:07 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
At any rate, I agree that some people seem to be lying about their near-death experiences - Dannion Brinkley, for example, clearly has some issues with dishonesty. But I think there are likely others who are sincere. Howard Storm is one example of someone who strikes me as sincere. Based on his NDE, he quit his job as a successful university professor to become a pastor. His daughter was on Unsolved Mysteries and said she wasn't sure personally if she believed in his experience, but that being around him it was hard not to, he believed it so strongly himself.
I don't think people are lying either, possibily embelishing a bit, maybe even honest to goodness, memory distortion. There's also the possibility that, just like when you are trying to recall and tell a dream to someone, there are gaps in your memory that you either admit are gaps or fill it with imagination. There are sometimes where I am so sure things happen one way that I argue it tooth and nail, then when the events are told as they really happened, I can remember it accurately and wonder where the heck I got my version from.
As for the pastor, did the tale of his NDE come out before he was a pastor or after? That would be important in deciding whether or not to believe him.
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Old 20th May 2010, 12:02 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Spindrift View Post
Isn't a "soul" going to heaven or hell after dying pretty fantastical in and of itself?
Well, yes, maybe to some, as a matter of fact. Unless you believe it, in which case it isn't seen as fantastical at all.

I was referring more to the way that dreams usually tend to drift into nonsensical imagery at some point, even if they start out realistic.

Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
I don't think people are lying either, possibily embelishing a bit, maybe even honest to goodness, memory distortion. There's also the possibility that, just like when you are trying to recall and tell a dream to someone, there are gaps in your memory that you either admit are gaps or fill it with imagination. There are sometimes where I am so sure things happen one way that I argue it tooth and nail, then when the events are told as they really happened, I can remember it accurately and wonder where the heck I got my version from.
As for the pastor, did the tale of his NDE come out before he was a pastor or after? That would be important in deciding whether or not to believe him.
Those are all good points, especially the gaps in the memory part and the well-documented human tendency to mis-remember things, though like I said I do think some of them are lying. Some of it may be exaggeration or embellishment, true.

It looks like Storm became a pastor before the first edition of his book was published in 2000, though I can't say for certain since I don't have that edition. Interesting point.
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Old 20th May 2010, 12:16 PM   #59
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Near Death Experience Research Foundation

http://www.nderf.org/
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Old 20th May 2010, 01:57 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by 154 View Post
Near Death Experience Research Foundation

http://www.nderf.org/
What is the point of this link?
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Old 20th May 2010, 02:40 PM   #61
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Pardon me if I’m mistaken, I’m just a fool, but doesn’t the bible and Christian doctrine state that the person who has died is not judged until, well, “judgment day” and only after gods decree of their salvation or lack thereof do you get either tossed in a lake of fire or heaven.
The bible says

· Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
· John 11:11-14 ...Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

154 you are wrong to even pretend to believe these people are telling anything but a lie.
That is, unless you’re like most fundys and simply are making up your religious belief as you go, are you one of those.
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Old 20th May 2010, 03:32 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by king catfish View Post
"Ah," nodded Arthur, "Is he. Is he."
Eddie's in the space time continuum!!
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Old 20th May 2010, 04:13 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
Well, yes, maybe to some, as a matter of fact. Unless you believe it, in which case it isn't seen as fantastical at all.

I was referring more to the way that dreams usually tend to drift into nonsensical imagery at some point, even if they start out realistic.



Those are all good points, especially the gaps in the memory part and the well-documented human tendency to mis-remember things, though like I said I do think some of them are lying. Some of it may be exaggeration or embellishment, true.

It looks like Storm became a pastor before the first edition of his book was published in 2000, though I can't say for certain since I don't have that edition. Interesting point.
For the record, I was agreeing with you, not correcting you. Just incase it came out wrong. I think a lot of being believe they are being truthful when they retell supernatural stories.
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Old 20th May 2010, 04:23 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
IExcept for Sylvia Browne herself, who as I recall, said she'd been the virgin Mary.

Sylvia Browne - yuck.
Sylvia Browne as the 'virgin Mary' - yuck.
Sylvia Browne as a virgin - quite believable, still yuck.

What I can't (don't want to) imagine, and what I can't get out of my head now, is Sylvia Browne becoming a non-virgin.

Yuck.
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Old 20th May 2010, 04:49 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by sgtbaker View Post
For the record, I was agreeing with you, not correcting you. Just incase it came out wrong. I think a lot of being believe they are being truthful when they retell supernatural stories.
Oh, I didn't take it as a correction, no worries. I agreed with you too, just elaborating.

Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
Sylvia Browne - yuck.
Sylvia Browne as the 'virgin Mary' - yuck.
Sylvia Browne as a virgin - quite believable, still yuck.

What I can't (don't want to) imagine, and what I can't get out of my head now, is Sylvia Browne becoming a non-virgin.

Yuck.
Bad ExM.

Bad, bad imagery. Very bad.
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Old 20th May 2010, 07:59 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
Oh, I didn't take it as a correction, no worries. I agreed with you too, just elaborating.



Bad ExM.

Bad, bad imagery. Very bad.

The claws would be bad enough.

Perhaps they would distract you from the rest of it.
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