ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 

Notices


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags nde , near death experience

Reply
Old 24th September 2009, 03:58 PM   #1
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Cool Out of body experiences.

I have been watching videos of Youtube for Near Death Experiences for a few hours now and have been thinking, could they be telling the truth? I mean could do they honestly believe that they died and went to Heaven/Hell? I have also been thinking if they did not see what they explained why would they tell it to every one? Or have special Sermons talking about it.

What I am trying to ask everyone here is, can things like that be debunked? Or can it only be left alone for us to think about?
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:06 PM   #2
Towlie
ancillary character
 
Towlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,474
Give us some links, but not too many. How about just the ones that you found to be the most compelling?
Towlie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:08 PM   #3
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
they can be debunked and have been, but to the people having a subjective experience that isn't as important as what they gained from the OOBE.

If someone has a NDE and when they return live a better or more substantial life then it doesn't matter if the experience was real or not does it ?

wiki has lots of details on this subject
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:09 PM   #4
shandyjan
Master Poster
 
shandyjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: N/W England
Posts: 2,122
Thread here on it you may want to check.
Interesting subject, where tests have been done they have been debunked. Other than that its the same as for people saying they spoke to a ghost. Its anecdotal.

ETA Oops, missed adding link

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...ad.php?t=95596
__________________
Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's
A dog is for life, not just for xmas!
shandyjan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:12 PM   #5
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CB6_QMHf0Uk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9bHee6Idt0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crRm9lIzRmg <<Part 1/2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn2ckvgLFE<<Part2/2
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:18 PM   #6
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
do you believe in heaven and hell ?

Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:24 PM   #7
shandyjan
Master Poster
 
shandyjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: N/W England
Posts: 2,122
I tried, Deadly Ninja, but I get the same feeling as I get watching a video of Benny Hinn, or Sylvia Brown. I just believe there are reasons for the experiences...but they are nothing to do with heaven or hell, or the paranormal in my mind. And I wonder how much the stories elaborate on each telling up until they become what they are on the video/news/interviews? Like the abduction stories that grew with the retelling?
My BS meter just zings when I watch.
(Personal opinion... not with any authority.)
__________________
Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's
A dog is for life, not just for xmas!
shandyjan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:25 PM   #8
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
do you believe in heaven and hell ?

I guess the easiest way for me to answer is 80% of me does not at all yet there is always that 20% peaking in on me.
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:30 PM   #9
shandyjan
Master Poster
 
shandyjan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: N/W England
Posts: 2,122
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
do you believe in heaven and hell ?

You have a point there.
__________________
Belief is the wound that knowledge heals. Ursula K. LeGuin's
A dog is for life, not just for xmas!
shandyjan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 04:33 PM   #10
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
I guess the easiest way for me to answer is 80% of me does not at all yet there is always that 20% peaking in on me.
Ok I have no belief in Heaven or Hell as a student of history I know that there was no hell prior to monotheism and heaven was markedly different,

so do you think my chances of seeing heaven would be decreased by me not thinking about the afterlife in any experience that it might be relevant, such as when I was being wheeled in for a life threatening operation ?

or

do you think credibility is affected by the most vocal believers in this experience always having a financial motivation to tell their story ?

or

have you ever come across any confirmed atheists who have seen heaven during a NDE ?

if the answers were yes/yes/no then you have already realised that anecdotal stories are no kind of acceptable evidence. To prove someone actually saw heaven you'd first need to prove it exists

Last edited by Marduk; 24th September 2009 at 04:36 PM.
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 06:15 PM   #11
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 06:25 PM   #12
NobbyNobbs
Gazerbeam's Protege
 
NobbyNobbs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,617
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?
Not according to Terry Pratchett.
__________________
I wish someone would find something I wrote on this board to be sig-worthy, thereby effectively granting me immortality.--Antiquehunter
The gods do not deduct from a man's allotted years on earth the time spent eating butterscotch pudding.
AMERICA! NUMBER 1 IN PARTICLE PHYSICS SINCE JULY 4TH, 1776!!! --SusanConstant
NobbyNobbs is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 06:27 PM   #13
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?
theres one easy answer for this, the only part of the Bible that actually describes heaven is in the book that is the least read

Revelations 21
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...21&version=KJV
and even then its the heaven after armegeddon thats being described

most people get their idea of heaven from sunday school, as such it is an idea thats subject to individual imagination, which doesn't help with proof does it, unless youre trying to prove that whatever happened to these people wasn't death, and what they experienced was part of life

Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 07:11 PM   #14
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
 
ExMinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,982
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Ok I have no belief in Heaven or Hell as a student of history I know that there was no hell prior to monotheism and heaven was markedly different,

so do you think my chances of seeing heaven would be decreased by me not thinking about the afterlife in any experience that it might be relevant, such as when I was being wheeled in for a life threatening operation ?

or

do you think credibility is affected by the most vocal believers in this experience always having a financial motivation to tell their story ?

or

have you ever come across any confirmed atheists who have seen heaven during a NDE ?
if the answers were yes/yes/no then you have already realised that anecdotal stories are no kind of acceptable evidence. To prove someone actually saw heaven you'd first need to prove it exists
Howard Storm is an example of this. Atheist professor, had a near-death experience, the experience changed him so much he became a minister. Intriguing story. Personally I think he's sincere.

Ancedotes are no kind of evidence, I agree. But yes, I do think some of them are sincere. Of course, that doesn't mean what they saw was actually heaven, just that they are sincere in believing so. Others clearly seem to be in it for the money/fame (Dannion Brinkley). And there's no real reliable way to tell them apart, other than catching them in blatant lies or contradictions.
__________________
www.stopsylvia.com
ExMinister is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 07:21 PM   #15
Towlie
ancillary character
 
Towlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,474
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Hmm, I did notice also, with all of the different people's stories there was a different place. If they just arrived in Heaven, wouldn't it look the same for everyone?
I think most people's image of Heaven is pretty much like it was in Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey, with women wearing Salvation Army uniforms and 1940's hairdos handing out pamphlets at the entrance, nothing but white everywhere, and famous people hanging around in groups playing charades.

I just can't wait to go there.
Towlie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 07:22 PM   #16
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
 
ExMinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,982
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
I have been watching videos of Youtube for Near Death Experiences for a few hours now and have been thinking, could they be telling the truth? I mean could do they honestly believe that they died and went to Heaven/Hell? I have also been thinking if they did not see what they explained why would they tell it to every one? Or have special Sermons talking about it.

What I am trying to ask everyone here is, can things like that be debunked? Or can it only be left alone for us to think about?
I do think some of them honestly believe they died and went to heaven/hell, so they feel strongly motivated to share what they have "learned."

Can things like that be debunked? Yes and no. You can examine certain features of the experiences that would indicate they are more similar to hallucinatory sleep experiences, for example, than actual out-of-body events. There are interesting cross-cultural studies of NDEs that seem to indicate that what people see in an NDE is largely culturally dictated. You might find this article interesting: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ine/HNDEs.html
__________________
www.stopsylvia.com
ExMinister is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th September 2009, 08:51 PM   #17
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Although, I find it weird that God would just let them see Heaven and leave. That would mean there is no Faith anymore for that person, only "knowing".
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2009, 10:27 AM   #18
Marduk
Banned
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 10,183
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Although, I find it weird that God would just let them see Heaven and leave. That would mean there is no Faith anymore for that person, only "knowing".
Thats ok Kid
I find it weird that anyone would even think that God had anything to do with it in the first place. While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film
Marduk is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2009, 11:49 AM   #19
Towlie
ancillary character
 
Towlie's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,474
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film
True, but the final scene is cool to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ng+final+scene

Last edited by Towlie; 25th September 2009 at 11:52 AM.
Towlie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th September 2009, 10:24 PM   #20
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
Thats ok Kid
I find it weird that anyone would even think that God had anything to do with it in the first place. While we're on the subject "Knowing" was a bloody awful film
Yeahh, well I also find it weird that God would let his "Perfect Creations" suffer something such as Hell. If he is God why wouldn't he just use his power to make us "good" rather than giving us a scenario made up by him.
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2009, 03:59 AM   #21
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
Originally Posted by ExMinister View Post
I do think some of them honestly believe they died and went to heaven/hell, so they feel strongly motivated to share what they have "learned."

Can things like that be debunked? Yes and no. You can examine certain features of the experiences that would indicate they are more similar to hallucinatory sleep experiences, for example, than actual out-of-body events. There are interesting cross-cultural studies of NDEs that seem to indicate that what people see in an NDE is largely culturally dictated. You might find this article interesting: http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ine/HNDEs.html
A fascinating article, ExMinister. The part about the children's experiences was most interesting and that was the first time I've read about the cross-cultural studies on the subject.
Thanks for posting that up!
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2009, 04:22 AM   #22
tsig
a carbon based life-form
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 39,049
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Yeahh, well I also find it weird that God would let his "Perfect Creations" suffer something such as Hell. If he is God why wouldn't he just use his power to make us "good" rather than giving us a scenario made up by him.
Funny that the afterlife looks so much like this one. I mean a Muslim sees his heaven and a Christian sees theirs.

Also I don't know of any account where someone went to hell.
tsig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2009, 08:44 AM   #23
ExMinister
RSL Acolyte
 
ExMinister's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,982
Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Funny that the afterlife looks so much like this one. I mean a Muslim sees his heaven and a Christian sees theirs.

Also I don't know of any account where someone went to hell.
There are quite a few. Type "near death experiences hell" into You Tube and there is a lot to choose from. In fact Howard Storm, the atheist I mentioned previously, claims to have had an NDE that landed him first in hell. I think there's a certain way we're supposed to link to videos and I don't know how it's done, otherwise I'd link it for you.
__________________
www.stopsylvia.com
ExMinister is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th September 2009, 02:59 PM   #24
Olowkow
Philosopher
 
Olowkow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,230
Originally Posted by XxDeadlyNinjaxX View Post
Yeahh, well I also find it weird that God would let his "Perfect Creations" suffer something such as Hell. If he is God why wouldn't he just use his power to make us "good" rather than giving us a scenario made up by him.
Because he's a dick!
Olowkow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2009, 02:31 AM   #25
XxDeadlyNinjaxX
Thinker
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 178
Originally Posted by olowkow View Post
because he's a dick!
lol:d
XxDeadlyNinjaxX is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:09 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.