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Tags astrology , nde , near death experience

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Old 2nd January 2007, 06:11 PM   #1
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Near-death.com claims that astrological concepts have been scientifically proven

In another thread, Huntster claims that there is evidence of souls and cites (as one part of a long list):
Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
(49) Astrological concepts have been proven scientifically.
(50) Astrological concepts are found in NDEs.
... as evidence of near-death experiences (NDE) and that scientifically-documented NDEs are evidence of a soul. The website making the claim is http://www.near-death.com/evidence.html . I had thought about starting a new thread with all 53 claims, but I imagined that such a thread would become unwieldy.

The citation at near-death.com includes a link to an Australian magazine that reports on Percy Seymour's book, The Scientific Proof of Astrology.
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Old 2nd January 2007, 08:26 PM   #2
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Don't expect a lot of response to this thread.
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Old 2nd January 2007, 09:17 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Don't expect a lot of response to this thread.
Why?
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Old 2nd January 2007, 09:23 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Why?
It's difficult to post while laughing . . . or crying?
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Old 2nd January 2007, 10:30 PM   #5
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Quote:
Why?
I'm not sure but I think that Huntster is suggesting that the skeptics on this board are too dogmatic to even consider possible evidence of things like astrology or NDEs.

Huntster is free to correct me if I am wrong. My apologies would soon follow.
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Old 2nd January 2007, 10:42 PM   #6
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Okay, I'll ask:

How have astrological concepts been proven scientifically?

From the "source" in the article: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/20...028464767.html

Quote:
Seymour's suggestion that the stars and planets rule us has largely been received with the shortest of shrifts. "All I can say is that I have yet to meet another scientist that agrees with his views," says Jacqueline Mitton of the UK's Royal Astronomical Society.
I guess after having given up on gravity, they've moved on to magnetic fields. Unfortunately like the gravitational effect of Jupiter:
Quote:
"Your mobile phone, your television, your washing machine — any electrical equipment you have generates far stronger magnetic fields than the Earth's field."
I don't see anything proven in the article. Just a lot of conjecture.

Then there's this gem:

Quote:
the astrological concept known as "karma" was demonstrated to be a reality in a study which confirmed that acting selflessly has rewards.
Funny how there's no citiation for the study that proved this.
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Don't expect a lot of response to this thread.
No responses in the past 24 hours; the thread has rolled off the first page. You are right.

Again I ask. Why?
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:41 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
No responses in the past 24 hours; the thread has rolled off the first page. You are right.

Again I ask. Why?
Because it's so obviously utter bollocks that there's no point trying to debate it, we can all just have a quiet giggle and move on.
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Old 4th January 2007, 06:42 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by KingMerv
I'm not sure but I think that Huntster is suggesting that the skeptics on this board are too dogmatic to even consider possible evidence of things like astrology or NDEs.
Too dogmatic? Heck, no!

What is the mechanism by which the planets affect me?

I believe in NDEs. Just like I believe in UFOs.

~~ Paul
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Old 4th January 2007, 07:08 AM   #10
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Maybe we can take one bit at a time.

The first astrological claim to have been scientifically proven, according to the site is:

Quote:
Serial killers can be identified through their astrological birth chart.
Does anyone have any more details on this?
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Old 4th January 2007, 07:52 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Ersby View Post
Maybe we can take one bit at a time.

The first astrological claim to have been scientifically proven, according to the site is:



Does anyone have any more details on this?
I saw this on Unexplained Mysteries, years ago. I thought the segment was a load of crap.

And at the time, I did believe in astrology and the paranormal.
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Old 4th January 2007, 08:18 AM   #12
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I think the Bad Astronomer has some excellent links showing actual scientific studies debunking astronomy.
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Old 4th January 2007, 08:35 AM   #13
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If being a serial killer had anything to do with zodiac signs, there'd be a pattern:

Aquarius January 21 – February 18
Luis Garavito, Jan 25. "The Beast" Killed more than 100.
Robert Berdella Jan 31. The Butcher of Kansas City, killed 5
Jerry Brudos, Jan 31. The Shoe Fetish Killer. Killed 5.
Gary Ridgway, Feb 18, The Green River Killer, Killed 48.
Pisces February 19 – March 20
Eric Cooke Feb 25, attacked 20, killed 2
John Straffen, Feb 27. Killed 3.
Richard Ramírez, Feb 29. The Night Stalker, killed 13
Lenny Murphy, Mar 2. Leader of the Shankill Butchers.
Peter Woodcock, Mar 5. Killed 5
Dennis Rader, Mar 9. The BTK killer, 10+
Donald Henry Gaskins, Jr., Mar 13. Killed 100+
Colin Ireland, Mar 16. The Gay Slayer, killed 5
John Wayne Gacy, Mar 17. killed 33.
Randy Steven Kraft, Mar 19. Killed 17
Aries March 21 – April 20
Gerard John Schaefer, Mar 25, Confessed to 30
Michel Fourniret, Apr 4. Killed at least 9
Henri Désiré Landru Apr 12. Killed 11
Joachim Kroll. Apr 17. The Ruhr Cannibal, Killed 13
Taurus April 21 – May 21
Robert Black, Apr 21. Killed at least 4 girls.
Karla Homolka, May 4 see Paul Bernardo
Jeffrey Dahmer, May 21. Killed 17.
Gemini May 22 – June 21
Kenneth Bianchi, May 22. One of the Hillside stranglers, killed 10
Richard Chase, May 23, The Vampire of Sacramento, killed 6
Peter Kürten, May 26. The Vampire of Düsseldorf. Killed 20+
Danny Rolling, May 26. The Gainsville Ripper, Killed 8
Thomas Cream, May 27. Killed 5.
Robert Lee Yates, May 27, killed 13
Wayne Williams, May 27, killed up to 30 children
David Berkowitz, Jun 1. Son of Sam, killed 6
Peter William Sutcliffe, Jun 2. The Yorkshire Ripper, Killed 11.
Arthur Shawcross, June 6 The Genesee River Killer. Killed 10+
Cancer June 22 - July 23
Peter Dupas July 5, probably killed 5
Myra Hindley, July 23, Moors Murderess, Killed 5
Leo July 24 – August 23
John Haigh, July 24. The Vampire of London. Killed 6 or 8.
Michael Ross, Jul 26. Killed 8
Charles Albright, Aug 10. Killed 3.
Karl Denke, Aug 12. Killed 30+
Cary Stayner, Aug 13. killed 4
Virgo August 24 – September 23
William Suff, Aug 20. The Lake Elsinore Killer, killed 12
Paul Bernardo, Aug 27. The Scarborough Rapist
Dean Carter, Aug 30. Killed 4
Libra September 24 – October 23
Patrick Mackay, Sep 25, Killed 5.
Efren Saldivar, Sep 30. Killed between 8 and 100.
Beverley Allitt, Oct 4. The "angel of death" killed 4 and attempted to kill 11 more.
Angelo Buono, Jr. Oct 5. One of the Hillside Stranglers. Killed 9+
Pedro López, Oct 8. The monster of the Andes, supposedly killed more than 100 but there are problems with authentication
Scorpio October 24 – November 22
Fritz Haarmann, Oct 25. Killed 24
Albert Henry DeSalvo, Nov 3. The Boston Strangler, killed 13
Marc Dutroux, Nov 6. Killed 6.
Jürgen Bartsch, Nov 6. Killed 4 children.
Coral Eugene Watts, Nov 7. Killed 80
Charles Manson, Nov 12. Killed 7+
Sagittarius November 23 – December 21
Dennis Nilsen, Nov 23. Killed 15.
Ted Bundy, Nov 24. Killed 30+
Edward Leonski, Dec 12. Killed 3
George Chapman, Dec 14. Killed 3, suspected of being Jack the Ripper.
Edmund Kemper, Dec 18, the Co-Ed killer. Killed 6
Capricorn December 22 – January 20
Dean Corll, Dec 24. Killed 27
Ivan Milat, Dec 27. The backpack murderer, killed at least 7 tourists.
Joseph Vacher, Dec 31. Killed 11.
John Allen Muhammad, Dec 31. The beltway sniper, killed 10
Clifford Olson, Jan 1. Killed 7.
Ian Brady, Jan 2. The Moors Murderer. Killed 5.
George Joseph Smith, Brides in the Bath murderer, killed 3
Joe Ball, Jan 7. The Alligator Man, killed ~20
William Bonin, Jan 8. The Freeway Killer, killed 20
Harold Shipman, Jan 14. Dr Death, probably killed more than 250 people.
Marcel Pétiot Jan 17. Killed 60+

There. Done. Just to point out, I did not cherry pick any facts, I started with lists on about.com and wikipedia and kept any killer with a conviction and accurate DOB.

This same non-pattern shows up in all zodiac tests, which is one reason (among many) that nobody takes it seriously.
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Old 4th January 2007, 09:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tirdun View Post
If being a serial killer had anything to do with zodiac signs, there'd be a pattern:



There. Done. Just to point out, I did not cherry pick any facts, I started with lists on about.com and wikipedia and kept any killer with a conviction and accurate DOB.

This same non-pattern shows up in all zodiac tests, which is one reason (among many) that nobody takes it seriously.
Thanks for explaining the sources, at first I was a bit frightened that you had so much data so readily available.

I figured the original claim was nonsense, but nobody challenged it in the original thread. I didn't want to leave it undisputed.
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Old 4th January 2007, 09:31 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
The citation at near-death.com includes a link to an Australian magazine that reports on Percy Seymour's book, The Scientific Proof of Astrology.
A foul sham book, if I recall correctly.
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:35 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Huntster View Post
Don't expect a lot of response to this thread.
I think I'll respond.


















Just did.
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:38 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
It's difficult to post while laughing . . . or crying?
Or hiccuping.



Or sneezing.



Or...farting.
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Tirdun View Post
If being a serial killer had anything to do with zodiac signs, there'd be a pattern:

Aquarius January 21 – February 18
Luis Garavito, Jan 25. "The Beast" Killed more than 100.
Robert Berdella Jan 31. The Butcher of Kansas City, killed 5
Jerry Brudos, Jan 31. The Shoe Fetish Killer. Killed 5.
Gary Ridgway, Feb 18, The Green River Killer, Killed 48.
Pisces February 19 – March 20
Eric Cooke Feb 25, attacked 20, killed 2
John Straffen, Feb 27. Killed 3.
Richard Ramírez, Feb 29. The Night Stalker, killed 13
Lenny Murphy, Mar 2. Leader of the Shankill Butchers.
Peter Woodcock, Mar 5. Killed 5
Dennis Rader, Mar 9. The BTK killer, 10+
Donald Henry Gaskins, Jr., Mar 13. Killed 100+
Colin Ireland, Mar 16. The Gay Slayer, killed 5
John Wayne Gacy, Mar 17. killed 33.
Randy Steven Kraft, Mar 19. Killed 17
Aries March 21 – April 20
Gerard John Schaefer, Mar 25, Confessed to 30
Michel Fourniret, Apr 4. Killed at least 9
Henri Désiré Landru Apr 12. Killed 11
Joachim Kroll. Apr 17. The Ruhr Cannibal, Killed 13
Taurus April 21 – May 21
Robert Black, Apr 21. Killed at least 4 girls.
Karla Homolka, May 4 see Paul Bernardo
Jeffrey Dahmer, May 21. Killed 17.
Gemini May 22 – June 21
Kenneth Bianchi, May 22. One of the Hillside stranglers, killed 10
Richard Chase, May 23, The Vampire of Sacramento, killed 6
Peter Kürten, May 26. The Vampire of Düsseldorf. Killed 20+
Danny Rolling, May 26. The Gainsville Ripper, Killed 8
Thomas Cream, May 27. Killed 5.
Robert Lee Yates, May 27, killed 13
Wayne Williams, May 27, killed up to 30 children
David Berkowitz, Jun 1. Son of Sam, killed 6
Peter William Sutcliffe, Jun 2. The Yorkshire Ripper, Killed 11.
Arthur Shawcross, June 6 The Genesee River Killer. Killed 10+
Cancer June 22 - July 23
Peter Dupas July 5, probably killed 5
Myra Hindley, July 23, Moors Murderess, Killed 5
Leo July 24 – August 23
John Haigh, July 24. The Vampire of London. Killed 6 or 8.
Michael Ross, Jul 26. Killed 8
Charles Albright, Aug 10. Killed 3.
Karl Denke, Aug 12. Killed 30+
Cary Stayner, Aug 13. killed 4
Virgo August 24 – September 23
William Suff, Aug 20. The Lake Elsinore Killer, killed 12
Paul Bernardo, Aug 27. The Scarborough Rapist
Dean Carter, Aug 30. Killed 4
Libra September 24 – October 23
Patrick Mackay, Sep 25, Killed 5.
Efren Saldivar, Sep 30. Killed between 8 and 100.
Beverley Allitt, Oct 4. The "angel of death" killed 4 and attempted to kill 11 more.
Angelo Buono, Jr. Oct 5. One of the Hillside Stranglers. Killed 9+
Pedro López, Oct 8. The monster of the Andes, supposedly killed more than 100 but there are problems with authentication
Scorpio October 24 – November 22
Fritz Haarmann, Oct 25. Killed 24
Albert Henry DeSalvo, Nov 3. The Boston Strangler, killed 13
Marc Dutroux, Nov 6. Killed 6.
Jürgen Bartsch, Nov 6. Killed 4 children.
Coral Eugene Watts, Nov 7. Killed 80
Charles Manson, Nov 12. Killed 7+
Sagittarius November 23 – December 21
Dennis Nilsen, Nov 23. Killed 15.
Ted Bundy, Nov 24. Killed 30+
Edward Leonski, Dec 12. Killed 3
George Chapman, Dec 14. Killed 3, suspected of being Jack the Ripper.
Edmund Kemper, Dec 18, the Co-Ed killer. Killed 6
Capricorn December 22 – January 20
Dean Corll, Dec 24. Killed 27
Ivan Milat, Dec 27. The backpack murderer, killed at least 7 tourists.
Joseph Vacher, Dec 31. Killed 11.
John Allen Muhammad, Dec 31. The beltway sniper, killed 10
Clifford Olson, Jan 1. Killed 7.
Ian Brady, Jan 2. The Moors Murderer. Killed 5.
George Joseph Smith, Brides in the Bath murderer, killed 3
Joe Ball, Jan 7. The Alligator Man, killed ~20
William Bonin, Jan 8. The Freeway Killer, killed 20
Harold Shipman, Jan 14. Dr Death, probably killed more than 250 people.
Marcel Pétiot Jan 17. Killed 60+

There. Done. Just to point out, I did not cherry pick any facts, I started with lists on about.com and wikipedia and kept any killer with a conviction and accurate DOB.

This same non-pattern shows up in all zodiac tests, which is one reason (among many) that nobody takes it seriously.
Sure there is evidence here. Can't you see it? Wouldn't you rather live in the world comprised of only 'Cancer' people?
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Old 4th January 2007, 04:47 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Sure there is evidence here. Can't you see it? Wouldn't you rather live in the world comprised of only 'Cancer' people?
That's me and the wife. But there's a local taxi driver known as Captain Crunch who tailgated me. I might become a cereal killer.
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Old 4th January 2007, 05:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I think the Bad Astronomer has some excellent links showing actual scientific studies debunking astronomy.
I do.
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Old 4th January 2007, 05:09 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
It's difficult to post while laughing . . . or crying?

Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Or hiccuping.

Or sneezing.

Or...farting.

Or while doing all five at the same time.
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Old 4th January 2007, 05:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by RichardR View Post
I do.

Thanks. I should have started with that resource.
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Old 4th January 2007, 06:25 PM   #23
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There's the "Mars Effect," which requires quite a lot of looking into to understand the fraud (probably unintentional) behind it, and is still cited occasionally. Then there's some things tied to season of the year, as babies born in the dead of winter tend to have some different outcomes than babies born in summer. That's the closest thing to scientific validation that I know of.

ETA: There are also many studies of the "Scorpios are the worst drivers" type which simply don't take into account the fact that if you divide people into arbitrary groups and then rank them that one group will be the worst, one the best, and that people are likely to see patterns where there is none, e.g. people are likely to greatly underestimate the likelihood that one group will be twice as large as another just from a random distribution.
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Old 5th January 2007, 03:37 AM   #24
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http://www.astrologyresearchjournal....1704/index.htm

This says it's a work in progress, so not scientifically proven. Plus, I'm not convinced by how they decide what it statistically significant: anything matching 50% or more than you'd expect by chance (ie, if it were 1 in 12 by chance, then an observed result of 3 in 12 would be considered a success.)

There's a lot of data there to muck around with. I would take a closer look but, you know, life's too short.
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Old 5th January 2007, 04:23 AM   #25
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His evidence of NDEs seem compelling.

NDEs, in fact, seem to be the only thing I find supernaturally persistent. His evidence, almost all of it, needs to be debunked in order to prove wrong NDEs.

Anybody know some good skeptic resources?
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Old 5th January 2007, 07:38 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by l0rca View Post
His evidence of NDEs seem compelling.

NDEs, in fact, seem to be the only thing I find supernaturally persistent. His evidence, almost all of it, needs to be debunked in order to prove wrong NDEs.
The natural explanation for NDE's is that the experiences are generated from within the brain rather than from without. What you need to "prove wrong" is the natural explanation in order for NDE's to be evidence of a "soul". This means that you need to demonstrate that the specific components of a NDE cannot happen naturally.

For example, the remembrance of a scene from a perspective outside of the body is often used as evidence. However, normal remembrances of events are usually overlaid with a 2-1/2 D representation of the scene which can be viewed from multiple perspectives separate from the person. And the sensation of dissociation, without any evidence of actual dissociation, can be induced experimentally. Since memories of being out of the body can happen through natural mechanisms, that they occur cannot be evidence of the unnatural.

Under normal circumstances, a scientist doesn't claim the evidence for their idea/hypothesis/theory is compelling until they have outlined what evidence would be necessary to disprove the idea, and whether or not that evidence exists. I presume you are referring to the link provided in the OP. While he looks at the "evidence" for an afterlife, he does not cover the evidence against. And he does not provide references to research published in peer-reviewed journals, and he includes obviously disreputable sources (like Victor Zammit).

This a just a long-winded and nitpicky way for me to say that regardless of whether or not you know anything about the science behind this issue, there is no reason for you to find the "evidence" compelling, because the author of that article clearly did not do his job. That he hasn't attempted the "debunking" for you means that you should be skeptical, not credulous. Of course, since hardly anybody seems to realize this, scores of pseudoscientists get away with this tactic all the time (and in all honesty, I don't think most of them realize it either - see Deepak Chopra's response to Michael Shermer in this weeks eSketpic for an example). But you have to remember that they are suggesting something quite extraordinary, which means that any explanation invoking a known mechanism, even something that is quite unlikely, automatically trumps their explanation.

Quote:
Anybody know some good skeptic resources?
Skeptic dictionary
The wikipedia article (the paranormal articles in the wikipedia tend to be biased towards belief) also covers some of the criticisms.
This article by Susan Blackmore.

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Old 5th January 2007, 07:41 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by l0rca View Post
His evidence of NDEs seem compelling.

NDEs, in fact, seem to be the only thing I find supernaturally persistent. His evidence, almost all of it, needs to be debunked in order to prove wrong NDEs.

Anybody know some good skeptic resources?
A quick search of the forum turns up no threads devoted to NDEs, but I suspect that that was because the index is being rebuilt. I am torn between waiting until good NDE threads become indexed and starting a new NDE thread.
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Old 5th January 2007, 07:56 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
For example, the remembrance of a scene from a perspective outside of the body is often used as evidence. However, normal remembrances of events are usually overlaid with a 2-1/2 D representation of the scene which can be viewed from multiple perspectives separate from the person. And the sensation of dissociation, without any evidence of actual dissociation, can be induced experimentally. Since memories of being out of the body can happen through natural mechanisms, that they occur cannot be evidence of the unnatural.
The problem with the anecdotes related to these reported "autoscopies" is that no one ever sees things that are not visible from the perspective of the dying person's body, i.e. if the person reports being near the ceiling and seeing a doctor to the right of his body and a nurse on the left of the person's body then there is no reason to believe that this knowledge could only come from viewing the room from above. These out-of-body experiences (OBE) never describe things that could be viewed only from the ceiling, e.g. a label on the top of a lamp.
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Old 5th January 2007, 11:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tirdun View Post
If being a serial killer had anything to do with zodiac signs, there'd be a pattern:

Aquarius January 21 – February 18
Luis Garavito, Jan 25. "The Beast" Killed more than 100.
Robert Berdella Jan 31. The Butcher of Kansas City, killed 5
Jerry Brudos, Jan 31. The Shoe Fetish Killer. Killed 5.
Gary Ridgway, Feb 18, The Green River Killer, Killed 48.
Pisces February 19 – March 20
Eric Cooke Feb 25, attacked 20, killed 2
John Straffen, Feb 27. Killed 3.
Richard Ramírez, Feb 29. The Night Stalker, killed 13
Lenny Murphy, Mar 2. Leader of the Shankill Butchers.
Peter Woodcock, Mar 5. Killed 5
Dennis Rader, Mar 9. The BTK killer, 10+
Donald Henry Gaskins, Jr., Mar 13. Killed 100+
Colin Ireland, Mar 16. The Gay Slayer, killed 5
John Wayne Gacy, Mar 17. killed 33.
Randy Steven Kraft, Mar 19. Killed 17
Aries March 21 – April 20
Gerard John Schaefer, Mar 25, Confessed to 30
Michel Fourniret, Apr 4. Killed at least 9
Henri Désiré Landru Apr 12. Killed 11
Joachim Kroll. Apr 17. The Ruhr Cannibal, Killed 13
Taurus April 21 – May 21
Robert Black, Apr 21. Killed at least 4 girls.
Karla Homolka, May 4 see Paul Bernardo
Jeffrey Dahmer, May 21. Killed 17.
Gemini May 22 – June 21
Kenneth Bianchi, May 22. One of the Hillside stranglers, killed 10
Richard Chase, May 23, The Vampire of Sacramento, killed 6
Peter Kürten, May 26. The Vampire of Düsseldorf. Killed 20+
Danny Rolling, May 26. The Gainsville Ripper, Killed 8
Thomas Cream, May 27. Killed 5.
Robert Lee Yates, May 27, killed 13
Wayne Williams, May 27, killed up to 30 children
David Berkowitz, Jun 1. Son of Sam, killed 6
Peter William Sutcliffe, Jun 2. The Yorkshire Ripper, Killed 11.
Arthur Shawcross, June 6 The Genesee River Killer. Killed 10+
Cancer June 22 - July 23
Peter Dupas July 5, probably killed 5
Myra Hindley, July 23, Moors Murderess, Killed 5
Leo July 24 – August 23
John Haigh, July 24. The Vampire of London. Killed 6 or 8.
Michael Ross, Jul 26. Killed 8
Charles Albright, Aug 10. Killed 3.
Karl Denke, Aug 12. Killed 30+
Cary Stayner, Aug 13. killed 4
Virgo August 24 – September 23
William Suff, Aug 20. The Lake Elsinore Killer, killed 12
Paul Bernardo, Aug 27. The Scarborough Rapist
Dean Carter, Aug 30. Killed 4
Libra September 24 – October 23
Patrick Mackay, Sep 25, Killed 5.
Efren Saldivar, Sep 30. Killed between 8 and 100.
Beverley Allitt, Oct 4. The "angel of death" killed 4 and attempted to kill 11 more.
Angelo Buono, Jr. Oct 5. One of the Hillside Stranglers. Killed 9+
Pedro López, Oct 8. The monster of the Andes, supposedly killed more than 100 but there are problems with authentication
Scorpio October 24 – November 22
Fritz Haarmann, Oct 25. Killed 24
Albert Henry DeSalvo, Nov 3. The Boston Strangler, killed 13
Marc Dutroux, Nov 6. Killed 6.
Jürgen Bartsch, Nov 6. Killed 4 children.
Coral Eugene Watts, Nov 7. Killed 80
Charles Manson, Nov 12. Killed 7+
Sagittarius November 23 – December 21
Dennis Nilsen, Nov 23. Killed 15.
Ted Bundy, Nov 24. Killed 30+
Edward Leonski, Dec 12. Killed 3
George Chapman, Dec 14. Killed 3, suspected of being Jack the Ripper.
Edmund Kemper, Dec 18, the Co-Ed killer. Killed 6
Capricorn December 22 – January 20
Dean Corll, Dec 24. Killed 27
Ivan Milat, Dec 27. The backpack murderer, killed at least 7 tourists.
Joseph Vacher, Dec 31. Killed 11.
John Allen Muhammad, Dec 31. The beltway sniper, killed 10
Clifford Olson, Jan 1. Killed 7.
Ian Brady, Jan 2. The Moors Murderer. Killed 5.
George Joseph Smith, Brides in the Bath murderer, killed 3
Joe Ball, Jan 7. The Alligator Man, killed ~20
William Bonin, Jan 8. The Freeway Killer, killed 20
Harold Shipman, Jan 14. Dr Death, probably killed more than 250 people.
Marcel Pétiot Jan 17. Killed 60+

There. Done. Just to point out, I did not cherry pick any facts, I started with lists on about.com and wikipedia and kept any killer with a conviction and accurate DOB.

This same non-pattern shows up in all zodiac tests, which is one reason (among many) that nobody takes it seriously.
To play devil's advocate here, you only give birth dates. Any devotee of Astrology will tell you that a person's astrological predilictions depend on more than date of year -- it has to take in the actual year as well as the actual time of day of the birth. By this logic, two people born at the exact same time will have the same personality traits -- but you can't just base it on the "zodiacal sign." (Even Astrologers laugh at the horoscope page of the newspaper because of this.)

Disclaimer: the above argument is in no way to be taken as a belief in Astrology on the part of this poster. In fact, I tend to believe a hippo sneezing in Africa at the time of my birth would have more effect on my life than where Jupiter was at the same time!

(One of my many college majors was Astrophysics. With that sort of background, there is no way I could accept astrology!)
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Old 5th January 2007, 11:54 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Because it's so obviously utter bollocks that there's no point trying to debate it, we can all just have a quiet giggle and move on.
And there is also no one here advocateing it to argue with.
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Old 5th January 2007, 12:00 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Or while doing all five at the same time.
That sounds like it could hurt.
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Old 5th January 2007, 12:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
The problem with the anecdotes related to these reported "autoscopies" is that no one ever sees things that are not visible from the perspective of the dying person's body, i.e. if the person reports being near the ceiling and seeing a doctor to the right of his body and a nurse on the left of the person's body then there is no reason to believe that this knowledge could only come from viewing the room from above. These out-of-body experiences (OBE) never describe things that could be viewed only from the ceiling, e.g. a label on the top of a lamp.
Didn't someone put messages up there in some ER to see if a NDE reported there could read them?
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Old 5th January 2007, 09:04 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And there is also no one here advocateing it to argue with.
That's exactly what I was thinking. This thread is basically just a devil's advocate thread. No one's going to argue for such a ridiculous thing. No one on this forum's going to do that. That'd be like people arguing that there's definitive proof of bigfoot, or homeopathy, or intelligent design, er... Sorry, bad examples.
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Old 5th January 2007, 09:20 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by aargh57 View Post
That's exactly what I was thinking. This thread is basically just a devil's advocate thread. No one's going to argue for such a ridiculous thing. No one on this forum's going to do that. That'd be like people arguing that there's definitive proof of bigfoot, or homeopathy, or intelligent design, er... Sorry, bad examples.
And yet, a regular poster on this board included the two items in the opening post as evidence of a soul.
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Old 6th January 2007, 07:52 PM   #35
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I was joking Ladewig.
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