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Tags "Making a Murderer" , Brendan Dassey , documentaries , murder cases , Steven Avery , Teresa Halbach , tv shows

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Old 8th January 2016, 10:04 PM   #481
truethat
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Well, for starters I don't feel a particular obligation to prove Manitowoc County Sheriff's department was angry with Steven Avery, or really prove anything that I haven't claimed.

Secondly, I don't see much utility in assuming best intentions for people we know acted improperly and unethically.

What I find interesting is this "honest mistake" business.

What do you think was an "honest mistake"?

The key you believed was planted?

The blood you believe was planted?

Or the fact that Manitowoc County officers took part in the investigation after it was announced to the world that they would not take part in the investigation?


Hi JK. I notice you are doing something that I see in flawed "discussions" all the time. We're discussing ideas right? But instead you are "debating ideas" and when people DEBATE ideas, they tend to equivocate instead of objectively analyze.

The key points you made above were about the SECOND trial, which you seem to be equating to the FIRST trial.

When the first trial happened, DNA evaluation was not available. That's how he got exonerated remember?

My interpretation of the SECOND trial was more about the CSI affect. That they felt they needed DNA evidence to grant a conviction so they planted it.


However, in the last few days I've reconsidered my position. The reason I have done so is that I realize that I got swept up in the drama of the story and just believed the angle of the documentary. That's what we are trained to do by movies and television shows right? Follow the lead, follow the angle.

When I see interviews with the investigative team involved, I wonder why I just assumed the evidence was planted. Not just assumed but believed.
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Old 8th January 2016, 10:50 PM   #482
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Quote:
When I see interviews with the investigative team involved, I wonder why I just assumed the evidence was planted. Not just assumed but believed.
I didn't believe any of it at first. My WTF??? moment came when I saw the hole in the vial of blood from the evidence box. I had to admit that looked pretty damning, and when I realized DNA could've simply come from any piece of his clothing in his house it all started smelling fishy.

I'm thinking about watching the whole thing from the beginning again, because I've had a lot of time to think it over and want to see if the points made still resonate for me.

I'm reluctant, though, to sit through Dassey's interviews. I found those to be really disturbing. When I saw his own lawyer getting him to confess, I thought -honestly- that I had either missed something important, or the film was edited badly. I just did not -could not- believe what I was seeing.

I still very much believe Avery is probably guilty. But I think the show has really opened my eyes about just how shoddy and unprofessional criminal investigations can be, and I'm appalled.
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Old 8th January 2016, 11:01 PM   #483
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TRUE: A few thoughts regarding the allegation that evidence was planted on Avery's property.

1) Avery advocates claim that investigators planted Avery's blood inside Halbach's vehicle, yet don't address why these same conspirators deposit Avery's sweat (e.g., Touch DNA) under the hood of the vehicle instead of his blood?

2) In the same vein, why did these conspirators deposit Avery's sweat on Halbach's car key instead of his blood?

IMO, both scenarios are illogical and speak to the scattershot mindset of conspiracy proponents.
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Old 8th January 2016, 11:40 PM   #484
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Quote:
1) Avery advocates claim that investigators planted Avery's blood inside Halbach's vehicle, yet don't address why these same conspirators deposit Avery's sweat (e.g., Touch DNA) under the hood of the vehicle instead of his blood?

2) In the same vein, why did these conspirators deposit Avery's sweat on Halbach's car key instead of his blood?
I'm not True, but I can speculate: maybe they only had a few drops of blood to work with? Maybe they used a piece of clothing or a towel to transfer DNA to the other places or items because blood on all of them would seem to be going too far?

Again: I think Avery is guilty. But I've concluded there's enough "reasonable doubt" to drive a truck through. In my mind's eye I can see the way it could play out if the LEOs were afraid he would be exonerated or even if one or more really were on a personal vendetta.

If Avery is, in fact, guilty it shouldn't be too hard to prove from the "mountain of evidence" they supposedly have that wasn't found or handled by any of the people with conflicts of interest.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:34 AM   #485
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Question: Were any other suspects considered at the time of the investigation? Have people with doubts about Avery's conviction proposed other suspects? Apparently Avery has suggested that his brothers -- criminals themselves -- might have set him up for business reasons. Is that a possibility?
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/...d-him-20160106
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.2487493
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:47 AM   #486
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From the documentary, nobody else was considered. Halbach's ex-boyfriend had no alibi.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:21 AM   #487
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Her current boyfriend and either some friends or family members were allowed to search the yard. I believe the woman who found the car was a friend of the victim?
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:22 AM   #488
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Her current boyfriend and either some friends or family members were allowed to search the yard. I believe the woman who found the car was a friend of the victim?
Cousin if I recall correctly.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:25 AM   #489
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Cousin if I recall correctly.
I just remember she was connected somehow, and -I think- she had with her a camera the victim's boyfriend loaned her.

I probably really do need to watch the whole thing again, because I know there are a lot of details I've simply forgotten.

I have no memory of what Avery claimed he was doing between the time he claimed the victim left his house, and the time he was out in the yard with Dassey at the "bomb fire".
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Old 9th January 2016, 05:31 AM   #490
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Originally Posted by JTF View Post
Avery advocates can weave conspiratorial narratives until the cows come home, but the FACT remains that Steven Avery was convicted of murdering Teresa Halbach.<snip>
So were Harry Gleeson, Timothy Evans, George Kelly, Mahmood Hussein Mattan, Derek Bentley and George Stinney. They were executed despite being innocent.

Then there are Kirk Bloodsworth, Delbert Tibbs, Walter McMillian, Joseph Burrows, Gary Gauger, Ron Williamson, Ray Krone, Anthony Graves, Carl Dausch, Debra Milke, Michael Shirley, Stefan Kiszko, Patrick Molloy, Jim Robinson, Michael and Vincent Hickey, Andrew Evans, Winston Silcott and dozens more. At least they weren't wrongfully executed.
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Old 9th January 2016, 05:35 AM   #491
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Steven Avery
So was he framed for all the other offenses as well? If not then I have no sympathy for him. This the kind of criminal who should be behind bars.
Oh wonderful, he was a criminal so it's fine that he was wrongfully convicted.


Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
This isn't a case of an ordinary citizen getting caught up in an investigation simply by being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Despite the rape exoneration, Avery is still a dangerous criminal who was certainly capable of committing the crime,
Based on your opinion? Is that all that should be needed to convict someone?

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
and he was the obvious suspect.
Great, the "obvious suspect". I hope for your sake you're never in that position.
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Old 9th January 2016, 07:08 AM   #492
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Well let me ask a question. (And this is HYPOTHETICAL and JUST A QUESTION not a statement about Avery)

How do you handle someone who is definitely criminal, predatory but you don't have enough evidence to convict them?

Let's say for example you have a pedophile, he's hurt several children. But you don't have enough evidence to convict him.

Then you get him on dealing drugs (let's say he uses them on the kids as well) but you don't have enough evidence to convict him.

So you have an opportunity during an arrest for possession to up the amount of drugs or use a search warrant to plant the evidence to upgrade the charges so that he will wind up getting many years in prison. In essence get him on "anything" to keep him off the streets, to protect people and in this case children.

Now what I'm noticing in the Avery case is that some people have sort of switched to not caring. For example in the beginning it was a case of "Innocent man exonerated after 18 years" but then as more and more came out it was shifted to "creep belongs in prison but they shouldn't have done that!"

The issue about the planted evidence for the murder is that it occurred in "real time" and so it unfolded before our eyes and made us participants in watching it happen.

We can ignore it when someone else does it behind the scenes, but it bothers us to have to watch it happen in front of us.

Maybe a comparison is the way Americans like to eat meat. They like those clean looking packages where the dirty work was handled behind the scenes. But if they had to walk through it from start to finish, the killing of the animal, the slaughterhouse, the cutting it up. The blood, the mess. We know it happens but we don't want to see it.

So this is why many people are struggling to figure out the narrative in this story. It's all about cognitive dissonance.

Last edited by truethat; 9th January 2016 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 9th January 2016, 07:37 AM   #493
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
So this is why many people are struggling to figure out the narrative in this story. It's all about cognitive dissonance.
I think there's also the realization of how messy the task actually is, not in the poor methodology, but in the impossibility of getting a "scientifically certain" answer, or anything close to it. There's an uncomfortable reliance on human judgement by way of a jury who is deciding what to extract from the mess. The subjective element is not popular in this forum, but that's all they have to go on. One might as well change "jury of one's peers" to "community bias."

Cognitive dissonance not just because the subjective happened here, but because it seems so necessary.

Last edited by marplots; 9th January 2016 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 9th January 2016, 07:38 AM   #494
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
I think there's also the realization of how messy the task actually is, not in the poor methodology, but in the impossibility of getting a "scientifically certain" answer, or anything close to it. There's an uncomfortable reliance on human judgement by way of a jury who is deciding what to extract from the mess. The subjective element is not popular in this forum, but that's all they have to go on. One might as well change "jury of one's peers" to "community bias."

Cognitive dissonance not just because the subjective happened here, but because it seems so necessary.
Well said!
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Old 9th January 2016, 08:43 AM   #495
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Maybe they used a piece of clothing or a towel to transfer DNA to the other places or items because blood on all of them would seem to be going too far?
What were the fibers found in these places where "sweaty cloth" may have been used?
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Old 9th January 2016, 09:11 AM   #496
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Kathleen Zellner is now representing Avery.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/story...very/78529270/
Game on.
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Old 9th January 2016, 10:17 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
From the documentary, nobody else was considered. Halbach's ex-boyfriend had no alibi.
And let's not forget Brendan Dassey's stepfather and older brother who also had no alibis, or at least whose alibis (they alibied each other) were refuted by a third party. Which was discovered relatively easily by the defense during the trial.

Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Her current boyfriend and either some friends or family members were allowed to search the yard. I believe the woman who found the car was a friend of the victim?
It was the ex-boyfriend who was allowed access to the salvage yard... a potential crime scene. This, after not being asked for an alibi or being treated as a suspect.

Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Cousin if I recall correctly.
I believe it was an aunt and a cousin who were searching, and the aunt who actually found it. It should be noted she found it inside of ten minutes on a multi-acre lot, and on the stand credited divine intervention for her amazing good fortune.

Again, more people connected to the victim being allowed access to a potential crime scene.

Speaking of the salvage yard search, I found this news report from 2005.

I thought this bit was interesting:
Quote:
"We had information that the car was on this property. We got a search warrant and did in fact find the car," said Calumet County Dist. Atty. Kenneth Kratz during a press conference Saturday night at the Mishicot Fire Department.
I'm wondering what "information" he's referring to.
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Old 9th January 2016, 10:22 AM   #498
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Kathleen Zellner is now representing Avery.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/story...very/78529270/
Originally Posted by SomedayGirl View Post
Game on.
Here's a fun hypothetical for the "He's guilty anyway so none of the police and prosecutorial misconduct matters" crowd.

Suppose Avery is guilty. Now suppose this lawyer who specializes in getting convictions overturned frees Avery on a technicality based on said misconduct. Then suppose Avery goes out and commits another heinous crime.

Does police and prosecutorial misconduct matter now?
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Old 9th January 2016, 11:08 AM   #499
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Originally Posted by truethat View Post
Well let me ask a question. (And this is HYPOTHETICAL and JUST A QUESTION not a statement about Avery)

How do you handle someone who is definitely criminal, predatory but you don't have enough evidence to convict them?

Let's say for example you have a pedophile, he's hurt several children. But you don't have enough evidence to convict him.

Then you get him on dealing drugs (let's say he uses them on the kids as well) but you don't have enough evidence to convict him.

......
Your premise is faulty. If you don't have enough evidence to persuade a jury that he's guilty, then you don't know that he has done those things. You might suspect, you might guess, but you don't know. A reasonable response might be to investigate him intensely and watch him closely, but when you start manufacturing evidence because of what you think you know you become a criminal yourself.

Sometimes prosecutors can be ingenious. Al Capone ultimately went to prison for tax evasion. In Avery's case, maybe a thorough investigation would find stolen cars in his junkyard, or deficient tax records. I don't have any problem with targeting a bad guy. But the evidence and the charges have to be legitimate. Otherwise the cops could do the same thing to any of us.
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Old 9th January 2016, 11:26 AM   #500
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Filmmakers have spoken out about the presumed sweat DNA under the Rav4 hood (4 minute mark):

http://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/...y-598845507868
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Old 9th January 2016, 11:35 AM   #501
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Your premise is faulty. If you don't have enough evidence to persuade a jury that he's guilty, then you don't know that he has done those things. You might suspect, you might guess, but you don't know. A reasonable response might be to investigate him intensely and watch him closely, but when you start manufacturing evidence because of what you think you know you become a criminal yourself.

Sometimes prosecutors can be ingenious. Al Capone ultimately went to prison for tax evasion. In Avery's case, maybe a thorough investigation would find stolen cars in his junkyard, or deficient tax records. I don't have any problem with targeting a bad guy. But the evidence and the charges have to be legitimate. Otherwise the cops could do the same thing to any of us.
In truethat's hypothetical, I figured he must have meant an iron-clad previous conviction and the police have cause to suspect the person has re-offended, which is I suppose a slightly better hypothetical in his attempts to excuse and justify police malfeasance. He's just looking for a gotcha moment where we have to say, "you're right truethat, in this instance police malfeasance is okay."

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Old 9th January 2016, 11:47 AM   #502
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This, from a Slate summary of the case, seems interesting:
Quote:
When Sergeant Andrew Colburn was questioned by Steven Avery’s lawyers about calling in Teresa Halbach’s plates, it seemed like he may have been caught in a lie, but exactly what was going on was a little hard to parse. It was Episode 5, Colburn was on the stand, and defense attorney Dean Strang asked him about the basics of calling in license plates: “One of the things that road patrol officers frequently do is call into dispatch and give the dispatcher the license plate numbers of a car they’ve stopped or a car that looks out of place for some reason, correct?” Colburn said yes. “And the dispatcher can get information about to whom a license plate is registered? … If the car is abandoned or there’s nobody in the car, the registration tells you who the owner presumably is?” More yeses from Colburn.

Then Strang played a recording in which Colburn read off a plate number and the dispatcher on the line told him it belonged to a missing person, Teresa Halbach. “ ’99 Toyota?” he asked in the recording. Strang then asked Colburn if he was looking at the plates at the time of the call—how else would he have the plate number, or if he did, what was he calling to check on? (Redditors continue to debate what else this could mean.) Colburn’s call to dispatch was recorded on Nov. 3, 2005, two days before the car was reported found in the Avery lot. Meaning that if Colburn wasn’t telling the truth, the timeline the police said the case adhered to was also untrue, also leaving time for the tampering they say wasn’t going on.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/...breakdown.html

So the cops were running the plate number before the victim's car was found? Has that been explained?
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Old 9th January 2016, 11:48 AM   #503
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Originally Posted by Samzilla View Post
Filmmakers have spoken out about the presumed sweat DNA under the Rav4 hood (4 minute mark):

http://www.msnbc.com/hardball/watch/...y-598845507868
It's weird how people keep treating this piece of evidence as some kind of slam-dunk just because disgraced former prosecutor and unethical scumbag Ken Kratz alleged that it is.
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Old 9th January 2016, 11:52 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
So the cops were running the plate number before the victim's car was found? Has that been explained?
Nope.

But obviously the most plausible explanation is that Colborn was just cruising around and randomly decided to double-check the license plate number on Teresa Halbach's vehicle that he had committed to memory for some reason without informing the dispatcher that's what he was doing. Makes total sense.

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Old 9th January 2016, 12:50 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Your premise is faulty. If you don't have enough evidence to persuade a jury that he's guilty, then you don't know that he has done those things. You might suspect, you might guess, but you don't know. A reasonable response might be to investigate him intensely and watch him closely, but when you start manufacturing evidence because of what you think you know you become a criminal yourself.
How many people would want to live in the police state trurthat envisages? A state where evidence is not necessary? Where police just know and act accordingly? It's a laughable premise.

And we are back to jailing him because he's a "creep". Because if you do not have the evidence to convict for murder, what has he done? Not rape. He did time for juvenile crime. Unbelievable.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:19 PM   #506
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Here are some interesting points from a poster elsewhere:

Quote:
I have seen many people commenting on here (and on the internet), repeatedly asking why Steven Avery didn't use the car crusher if he is, in fact, guilty. I worked for a scrap / recycling company who actually had all of this equipment, and I also go to salvage yards all the time to pull parts for easy car repairs, so I would like to explain a few things about crushing cars in a salvage yard.

1. You can't just drive into a car crusher, like I have repeatedly seen people assume. The junked car has to be lifted into it with a much larger piece of equipment, with forks on the front.

2. You have to drain all the fluids from the car before crushing, including the A/C fluid, gasoline, oil, washer fluid, transmission fluid, etc. Even if Steven had quick and dirty tricks like just punching a hole in some of the tanks, it would take a bit of time for them to all drain and be ready for crushing. This would involve getting under the car a bit and also having the hood open. Edit: some models of crushers have a catch pan for this, I don't know if that's always been a common feature, but our yard drained the cars before crushing, and we had a mix of older and newer equipment.

3. If trying to conceal the ID of the car, he would have to remove the small VIN plate from by the windshield, identification from inside the drivers side door, and any other numbered ID on the car before crushing, as it might be harder to get off after it was all mashed together. This would take a few tools / and a few minutes time.

4. Generally the engine blocks are removed from the car before crushing, which requires that the fork be used to tear it out, taking a few minutes and making some noise. As far as I know, with a regular crusher, you can't leave the engine block in as it's a piece of cast metal, and wouldn't flatten like the rest of the car. Edit: Totally forgot more modern cars have aluminum blocks, this was a cheaper Toyota, potentially the block could be crushed with the car.

5. The tires are removed from the car, which means that Steven would have to lift the car up with the forks and take them (and the rims) off, or put them on jacks of some sort. He could mash it with them on, but the tires would pop and additionally look out of place in a stack with other cars.

6. Not all of these would HAVE to be done 100%, but at the least some of them definitely would to crush the car, and also definitely if he wanted to hide the car without raising suspicion

7. The RAV4 was parked super close to the car crusher, which you can see at the bottom right of this annotated map of the Avery's property. If you were going to crush a car, what would be the best place to park it if you were going to have to place it in the crusher fairly soon? You could drain it all right there, finish stripping it, and use the forks to put it in the crusher. It's at the "back" of the lot, and also almost a straight shot from the entrance road on the bottom left without going through the main lot by the houses or being seen, even in the daytime. Additionally, if you were just trying to frame him but not be seen, why drive it all the way over beside the crusher and not just dump it closer to his house or closer to the back entrance? This car took a deliberate path to be in that back area, you had to turn off the main road in.

8. The car would still be the same color and generally look the same overall when flattened. Either he was going to paint it, remove the body panels that had color, or just flatten it and dump it under a pile of something so the green didn't show. This is a short video of a car being crushed. If you were looking for a red Civic, you could still generally tell what it was.

9. The whole movement into the crusher would have been loud and taken a while to do. I'm not sure if Steven was in charge of crushing duties, but someone might come over and start asking questions if he didn't normally do that type of work.

10. This entire process would take a full day, if not more, to get done properly, and hidden, with nobody in the family asking questions. He did not have time to do this when he parked the car initially, because he had to deal with a body first - which took into the night to burn down under the fire.
The poster concludes by stating, "The reason why it is still sitting there, is because he thought he had more time. He was busy trying to dispose of the body. Then, he went on a trip, fully thinking they would be looking for her for weeks, or even a month. This happens all the time with missing people. He was going to come back in a day or two, and work on the car. He didn't clean the car up because he initially didn't have time (especially once night fell) and he probably assumed it would be hidden by the junk on it until he got into doing the crushing."

The entire post is here.

Last edited by Ampulla of Vater; 9th January 2016 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:30 PM   #507
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Quote:
5. The tires are removed from the car, which means that Steven would have to lift the car up with the forks and take them (and the rims) off, or put them on jacks of some sort. He could mash it with them on, but the tires would pop and additionally look out of place in a stack with other cars.
Wasn't the tires he burned the tires from her car?
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:33 PM   #508
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Here are some interesting points from a poster elsewhere:



The poster concludes by stating, "The reason why it is still sitting there, is because he thought he had more time. He was busy trying to dispose of the body. Then, he went on a trip, fully thinking they would be looking for her for weeks, or even a month. This happens all the time with missing people. He was going to come back in a day or two, and work on the car. He didn't clean the car up because he initially didn't have time (especially once night fell) and he probably assumed it would be hidden by the junk on it until he got into doing the crushing."

The entire post is here.
That was quite interesting and informative until he started reading minds at the end there.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:38 PM   #509
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Wasn't the tires he burned the tires from her car?
Yes - I had that thought too. But then this is supposedly a picture of the car:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXnJ8GNWkAA7m4S.png:large

It looks to me like the tires were still on it.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:38 PM   #510
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Here are some interesting points from a poster elsewhere:



The poster concludes by stating, "The reason why it is still sitting there, is because he thought he had more time. He was busy trying to dispose of the body. Then, he went on a trip, fully thinking they would be looking for her for weeks, or even a month. This happens all the time with missing people. He was going to come back in a day or two, and work on the car. He didn't clean the car up because he initially didn't have time (especially once night fell) and he probably assumed it would be hidden by the junk on it until he got into doing the crushing."

The entire post is here.
Good stuff. Thanks for providing the information.

However, the question of why the RAV4 wasn't disposed of with the car crusher, isn't even in the top ten on my list of questions regarding the prosecution's theory of the crime.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:46 PM   #511
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Looks like Avery has gotten a new legal counsel, and a ball of fire at that.

Kratz, Lenk and the rest of the team will be answering to a jailer soon.

http://www.thenorthwestern.com/story...very/78529270/
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:47 PM   #512
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
Here are some interesting points from a poster elsewhere:

The poster concludes by stating, "The reason why it is still sitting there, is because he thought he had more time. He was busy trying to dispose of the body. Then, he went on a trip, fully thinking they would be looking for her for weeks, or even a month.
.....
The problem with this is that he knew her employer knew she went to his property. He would have to know the police would retrace her steps and would be knocking on his door pretty quick. If he burned the body, it indicates a frantic fear of discovery. If he really thought he had weeks to deal with it, he could have taken it off his property, buried it under junked cars or done something else that wouldn't be sure to be found, like bones in a fire pit. On the other hand, if somebody was trying to frame him, they might make the body easier to find (stuffing it in a wrecked car, maybe) rather than going to the extreme of burning it.
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:48 PM   #513
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In case it hasn't been posted, a lot of detail here:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwiesel...ed#.glg1DyyMPX
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Old 9th January 2016, 01:49 PM   #514
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
The problem with this is that he knew her employer knew she went to his property. He would have to know the police would retrace her steps and would be knocking on his door pretty quick. If he burned the body, it indicates a frantic fear of discovery. If he really thought he had weeks to deal with it, he could have taken it off his property, buried it under junked cars or done something else that wouldn't be sure to be found, like bones in a fire pit. On the other hand, if somebody was trying to frame him, they might make the body easier to find (stuffing it in a wrecked car, maybe) rather than going to the extreme of burning it.
All good points. And if you read the comments to the post Ampulla of Vater linked, there are a lot of other good counterarguments, too.

Last edited by johnny karate; 9th January 2016 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:07 PM   #515
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Good stuff. Thanks for providing the information.

However, the question of why the RAV4 wasn't disposed of with the car crusher, isn't even in the top ten on my list of questions regarding the prosecution's theory of the crime.
I didn't know we were sticking to your top ten list. I thought we could discuss any aspects of the case.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:11 PM   #516
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
I didn't know we were sticking to your top ten list. I thought we could discuss any aspects of the case.
Yeah, you really should check with me first.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:33 PM   #517
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
In case it hasn't been posted, a lot of detail here:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/jarettwiesel...ed#.glg1DyyMPX
An interesting quote from this article:

Quote:
If the mode of operation is not that there are strict rules of justice and we just follow them no matter how we feel about them, if people are willing to go along or not challenge their supervisor, or not say, ‘He didn’t do those other things, he probably didn’t do this, it’s a pretty murky area where it’s more about a character assessment than really looking at the facts.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:42 PM   #518
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I don't want to flood this thread, but there are interesting videos uploaded by a news station here:

http://fox6now.com/category/news/steven-avery/





*Post approved by johnny karate
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:47 PM   #519
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Originally Posted by Ampulla of Vater View Post
An interesting quote from this article:
Character assessment has no part in a criminal investigation and trial.
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Old 9th January 2016, 02:52 PM   #520
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dupe
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