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Old 19th January 2021, 05:41 PM   #41
theprestige
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Are Michelin stars like hotel stars?

Apparently the star rating for hotels is based primarily on which perks they offer. Like having a concierge, perhaps, is worth a star. But the stars don't actually rate things like quality of basic services. So you can find yourself staying at a filthy hotel with terrible customer service, but it's still four stars because it has laundry service or something.
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Old 19th January 2021, 07:39 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are Michelin stars like hotel stars?

Apparently the star rating for hotels is based primarily on which perks they offer. Like having a concierge, perhaps, is worth a star. But the stars don't actually rate things like quality of basic services. So you can find yourself staying at a filthy hotel with terrible customer service, but it's still four stars because it has laundry service or something.
It's a bit more complicated than that.
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Old 20th January 2021, 04:38 AM   #43
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Fundamentally the Michelin stars are supposed to be based purely on the food - quality, consistency, value for money etc. but it would be naive to assume that they don't take more general aspects into consideration. However, there are examples of, for instance, street food stalls with Michelin stars, so there's no hard and fast rules.
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Old 20th January 2021, 07:21 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
The Peat Inn is on our list - just never quite made it. Funnily enough, I was also thinking of a tomato dish I had in The Newport - which is not Michelin yet, (though I suspect it's only a matter of time) but was AA Restaurant of the year a couple of years ago. It's also very handily about 10 minutes from our door, so I may be biased
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Old 20th January 2021, 02:31 PM   #45
arthwollipot
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Originally Posted by Worm View Post
Fundamentally the Michelin stars are supposed to be based purely on the food - quality, consistency, value for money etc. but it would be naive to assume that they don't take more general aspects into consideration. However, there are examples of, for instance, street food stalls with Michelin stars, so there's no hard and fast rules.
The Michelin stars are based entirely on the Michelin travel guide. The stars represent whether the restaurant is worth a visit. One star says that it is. Two stars say that it's worth a detour off your planned route. Three stars say that it's worth a special trip.

Of course, it's become much more than that over time.
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Old 21st January 2021, 02:23 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Likewise.

However, the first vegan eatery I ever went to in Sheffield back in the late '70s was utter and complete pish - NOT because it was vegan, but 'cos they had no clue about seasoning and flavouring, so everything was blaaaaaaaaaand.

The Blue Moon Cafe right? Agreed. The Fat Cat is a lot better.

Yes my first veggie restaurant was the Veggie Ashoka in Glasgow. The Ashoka was at the time one of the most popular Indian restaurants in Glasgow and their veggie food was so in demand that they opened a specifically veggie branch. I was taken their by omnivore friends because the food was absolutely delicious. Some of the best Indian food I ever ate.



I also have vague memories of the first Indian restaurant in the UK getting a Michelin star being quite big news at the time. However like Squeegee I think the bigger shift is that all the major supermarkets in this area now have big meat-free sections.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:23 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
And I'm sure vegans take umbrage at the carnivores/omnivores who go out of their way to portray all vegans as self-righteous ******.
Of course they should as that is a generalization encompassing all of them that is unfair.
Not wanting to unfairly generalize I used the phrase "vocal minority" in my post about vegans.
I guess you missed that part in your eagerness to make your point.
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:27 AM   #48
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Old 21st January 2021, 03:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Of course they should as that is a generalization encompassing all of them that is unfair.
Not wanting to unfairly generalize I used the phrase "vocal minority" in my post about vegans.
I guess you missed that part in your eagerness to make your point.
I didn't ever claim that my point was addressed specifically to you.

I guess you missed that part in your eagerness to make your point.
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Old 21st January 2021, 05:57 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Wudang View Post
The Blue Moon Cafe right? Agreed. The Fat Cat is a lot better.

Yes my first veggie restaurant was the Veggie Ashoka in Glasgow. The Ashoka was at the time one of the most popular Indian restaurants in Glasgow and their veggie food was so in demand that they opened a specifically veggie branch. I was taken their by omnivore friends because the food was absolutely delicious. Some of the best Indian food I ever ate.



I also have vague memories of the first Indian restaurant in the UK getting a Michelin star being quite big news at the time. However like Squeegee I think the bigger shift is that all the major supermarkets in this area now have big meat-free sections.
Oh waaaaaaay before Blue Moon: Brick Rabbit on Infirmary Road. It was run by friends of friends. I went once as I thought it might be good, it wasn't. I went the second and third times as I had my arm severely twisted to go help support them. I do not think my comments about lack of flavour were ever fed back to them. (As an aside, I was accustomed to cooking for groups of a dozen conservation volunteers for a weekend or a week at a time, on naff all money, which tended to mean vegetarian or vegan - OK, we always had at least one vegetarian and vegan present. We always managed to make flavoursome food in sufficient quantity to feed folk before, during and after a day of hard, physical work.)
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Old 5th February 2021, 01:27 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I didn't ever claim that my point was addressed specifically to you.

I guess you missed that part in your eagerness to make your point.
Ummm...you quoted my post in your comment.
If you can't be bothered to remember - or own up to - your own posts you can be sure I will not be bothering to respond to them in the future.
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Old 5th February 2021, 01:31 AM   #52
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i'm not vegan but there's probably tons of vegan dishes that taste good. it's not all frozen veggie burgers
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Old 5th February 2021, 01:42 AM   #53
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Technically, veal is a dairy product.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:45 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dirtywick View Post
i'm not vegan but there's probably tons of vegan dishes that taste good. it's not all frozen veggie burgers
Yes there are, vegetables, salads, side dishes. Even some vegan main courses are great. Where I struggle is when rather than celebrating the ingredients in their own right ther use them to try to recreate meat dishes but without the meat.
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Old 5th February 2021, 04:22 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Ummm...you quoted my post in your comment.
If you can't be bothered to remember - or own up to - your own posts you can be sure I will not be bothering to respond to them in the future.
You posted:

Quote:
^This^

Vegan meals don't rile me. The self-righteous vocal minority of vegans who claim moral superiority is what riles me.
I quoted your post and said:

Quote:
And I'm sure vegans take umbrage at the carnivores/omnivores who go out of their way to portray all vegans as self-righteous ******.
I suppose if you feel that you are one of those people - a carnivore/omnivore who goes out of their way to portray all vegans as self-righteous ****** - then I suppose you can take offence.
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:42 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes there are, vegetables, salads, side dishes. Even some vegan main courses are great. Where I struggle is when rather than celebrating the ingredients in their own right ther use them to try to recreate meat dishes but without the meat.
I don't see the problem and have no idea why this is so often used as an argument against veganism.

Vegans have no right to make vegan bacon is about as meaningful to me as atheists have no right to celebrate Christmas.

If you like it, you like it. It doesn't mean you are duty bound to include the ingredients you find objectionable.
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:53 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes there are, vegetables, salads, side dishes. Even some vegan main courses are great. Where I struggle is when rather than celebrating the ingredients in their own right ther use them to try to recreate meat dishes but without the meat.
What's hard to understand?

Say you were brought up always wanting to be vegan/vegetarian, but your legal guardian insisted that you eat meat because they honestly believed that you couldn't get all the nutrition you needed from a vegan/vegetarian diet. It turns out that you actually liked the flavour of some meat dishes, but you still have moral objections to the slaughter of animals. If there's a dish out there that recreates that eating experience, but where nothing more conscious than a fungus is killed, then surely you can understand why someone would eat it?

You can look at it a different way, if you like. Say you enjoyed a particular hobby. Kite-flying, because why not. There are two ways to do it. One involves what we would normally think of as kite-flying, and the other involves first shooting a dog in the head. Would you struggle to understand why people opt for the method that doesn't involve killing a dog?

Or, even, do you struggle to understand why people strove to create make-up that wasn't tested on animals and why many people choose those brands?

Besides, you seem to be pitching this as a zero-sum game. It's entirely possible to have a diet that includes both veggie burgers and falafels.
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Old 5th February 2021, 06:00 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I don't see the problem and have no idea why this is so often used as an argument against veganism.

Vegans have no right to make vegan bacon is about as meaningful to me as atheists have no right to celebrate Christmas.

If you like it, you like it. It doesn't mean you are duty bound to include the ingredients you find objectionable.
What I am saying is that when you set the highest standard possible as the same as something else you can probably do better.

Nearly as good as meat - no thanks I would rather have meat. Note I am going purely on a taste and texture basis rather than considering any moral or planet benefits.

I think there are better things you can do with vegetables than trying to make them look or taste like a beef burger..

Cauliflower tikka is great, we have it regularly, so much better than chikkin Tikka or whatever they call it. Basically, celebrate the ingredients don't take an ingredient and try to make it taste like sonethkng else. YMMV.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:02 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
What I am saying is that when you set the highest standard possible as the same as something else you can probably do better.

Nearly as good as meat - no thanks I would rather have meat. Note I am going purely on a taste and texture basis rather than considering any moral or planet benefits.

I think there are better things you can do with vegetables than trying to make them look or taste like a beef burger..

Cauliflower tikka is great, we have it regularly, so much better than chikkin Tikka or whatever they call it. Basically, celebrate the ingredients don't take an ingredient and try to make it taste like sonethkng else. YMMV.
I have always found it a bit weird as well.

I have 2 not vegan, but vegetarian sisters.

When we have a BBQ we kind of either have 2 BBQs going or separate a section, which is cool, for the vegetarians.

Vegetarian sausages are actually quite nice, as a sausage is basically a type of prep/presentation. Burgers all good as the same.

Then it suddenly turns into trying to make boring stuff as close as possible to resemble and taste what they refuse to eat like that horrible vegie fake chicken and the steak thing.

Then in worst case scenario you get this type of thing.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/116...ake-meat-stunt

Quote:
Commerce Commission warns Hell Pizza over fake meat stunt

Hell Pizza has been slapped with just a warning despite the Commerce Commission finding it probably broke the law with its fake meat pizza.

Hell sparked outrage after revealing it had secretly used plant-based Beyond Meat patties on its burger pizza in June.

There were particular concerns relating to allergens and customers being able to make an informed decision when ordering their pizza.
The commission began an investigation after receiving several complaints that the company had made false or misleading representations about the contents of the burger pizza.

In a decision released on Tuesday, it said the company's advertising of the burger pizza was likely to have breached the Fair Trading Act.

The overall impression given to consumers by initial advertising was that the product comprised meat, when in fact the patty was made from plant-based protein.

"In the commission's view by describing the product as a 'burger pizza' which was 'loaded with chunks of medium-rare burger patty', Hell has likely made false or misleading representations about the kind and/or composition of goods offered for sale," said Stuart Wallace, the commission's Head of Consumer.

The commission received a number of complaints about the promotion after it began on June 21. On June 25 the advertising was amended to "medium-rare Beyond Meat burger patty...……………………..."

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Old 5th February 2021, 02:13 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Technically, veal is a dairy product.
No. Dairy specifically means milk. If veal comes from a farm that includes a dairy farm then that entire farm is not a dairy farm it is a mixed used farm.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:17 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
Ummm...you quoted my post in your comment.
If you can't be bothered to remember - or own up to - your own posts you can be sure I will not be bothering to respond to them in the future.
Just FYI, quoting can be done for a variety of reasons.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:18 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Technically, veal is a dairy product.
Yeah, in the sense that it's a by-product of dairy farms:

"Dairy cows must give birth to continue producing milk, but male dairy calves are of little or no value to the dairy farmer. A small percentage are raised to maturity and used for breeding."

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...table/ct_index

Once again, technically correct is the worst kind of correct. Were you trying to be clever, or do you think veal really is technically one of the dairy foods?
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:25 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
No. Dairy specifically means milk. If veal comes from a farm that includes a dairy farm then that entire farm is not a dairy farm it is a mixed used farm.
Veal is also a funny one as it is the one of the few times I am on the Vegie/vegans side, and won't eat it.

Some of the practices to get it aren't nice.

Same with Foie gras.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:28 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Veal is also a funny one as it is the one of the few times I am on the Vegie/vegans side, and won't eat it.

Some of the practices to get it aren't nice.

Same with Foie gras.
Same here.
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Old 5th February 2021, 02:53 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Yes there are, vegetables, salads, side dishes. Even some vegan main courses are great. Where I struggle is when rather than celebrating the ingredients in their own right ther use them to try to recreate meat dishes but without the meat.
I was brought up in a very meat and potatoes household.
I'm now trying to eat less meat for ethical/environmental/health reasons and my SO is a vegetarian, so I eat meat relatively infrequently.

I still crave the dishes I was brought up with or enjoyed at other times in my life. I find myself particularly craving some of the texture and taste of meat products.

I don't get these weird attempts to argue there is something wrong with that. Individual aesthetic preference is just that, a preference. No argument can make an aesthetic preference wrong or invalid.

I love celebrating veggies for what they are. I also make regular use of meat alternatives. It's not a binary question.
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Old 5th February 2021, 03:03 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I was brought up in a very meat and potatoes household.
I'm now trying to eat less meat for ethical/environmental/health reasons and my SO is a vegetarian, so I eat meat relatively infrequently.

I still crave the dishes I was brought up with or enjoyed at other times in my life. I find myself particularly craving some of the texture and taste of meat products.
I don't get these weird attempts to argue there is something wrong with that. Individual aesthetic preference is just that, a preference. No argument can make an aesthetic preference wrong or invalid.

I love celebrating veggies for what they are. I also make regular use of meat alternatives. It's not a binary question.
Fair enough.

Can actually understand this side of it.

My only other issue is they keep putting them in the butchery (meat bit) of NZ supermarkets. (maybe a regional thing)

And their branding seems to fly close to being fake that it isn't meat (at least here).

On the upside for vegans it always seems to be the reduced lot as no one buys it.
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Old 5th February 2021, 05:35 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Lothian View Post
Nearly as good as meat - no thanks I would rather have meat. Note I am going purely on a taste and texture basis rather than considering any moral or planet benefits.
But if you can understand why people who are not you might consider those last two points to be important, then surely you can understand why they might want a meat substitute which is close to meat? Do you really "struggle" to understand this?
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Old 6th February 2021, 03:10 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Squeegee Beckenheim View Post
But if you can understand why people who are not you might consider those last two points to be important, then surely you can understand why they might want a meat substitute which is close to meat? Do you really "struggle" to understand this?
It's one thing to deliberate and come to the conclusion that animals are not as worthy of moral consideration as humans, but it seems to me really odd when someone cannot even fathom why they are of any moral consideration whatsoever.

It doesn't surprise me when some people I suspect of being racist are also completely at ease snickering at anyone who wants to give animals any moral consideration. It should probably be expected.
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Old 6th February 2021, 05:07 AM   #69
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I'm kind of surprised it took this long.

I have no issue whatsoever with vegan food, even though I am personally an omnivore.

I would happily eat at a good vegan restaurant (and I have) because I like to try different things.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:14 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It's one thing to deliberate and come to the conclusion that animals are not as worthy of moral consideration as humans, but it seems to me really odd when someone cannot even fathom why they are of any moral consideration whatsoever.

It doesn't surprise me when some people I suspect of being racist are also completely at ease snickering at anyone who wants to give animals any moral consideration. It should probably be expected.
And this is exactly why people don't like holier-than-thou vegan types. You're not giving animals any moral consideration.

Firstly, depending on where you live a vegan diet kills more animals, and in more cruel ways, than an omnivore diet. This is especially true in places where cattle grazes (ie is not fed on animal feed) and where agricultural practices include the mass killing of rodents in fields. For example Australia is such a place, if you live in Australia and really cared about giving animals consideration (as opposed to really cared about your own pretense at caring about animals) you'd eat beef instead of vegan.

Secondly, even in places where a vegan diet kills less animals than a omnivorous diet, choosing a vegan diet most likely has exactly zilch effect on meat production. Unless there are a significant number of vegans (several percent) you stopping to buy meat gets lost entirely in the random fluctuations of meat consumption at the supermarket level, and most likely has only a single effect: slightly increasing the amount of food waste. You've gone from "We killed an animal to eat it" to "We killed an animal to throw its meat away."

Thirdly, vegan diets have serious effects on third-world countries where some of the staple crops for the diet are grown in awful working conditions. Aren't third-world people worthy of moral consideration? They are also animals after all.

If you want to have a fancy diet for yourself then that's all fine. But stop this pretense about "moral considerations for animals."
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Old 6th February 2021, 07:03 PM   #71
angrysoba
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
And this is exactly why people don't like holier-than-thou vegan types. You're not giving animals any moral consideration.

Firstly, depending on where you live a vegan diet kills more animals, and in more cruel ways, than an omnivore diet. This is especially true in places where cattle grazes (ie is not fed on animal feed) and where agricultural practices include the mass killing of rodents in fields. For example Australia is such a place, if you live in Australia and really cared about giving animals consideration (as opposed to really cared about your own pretense at caring about animals) you'd eat beef instead of vegan.

Secondly, even in places where a vegan diet kills less animals than a omnivorous diet, choosing a vegan diet most likely has exactly zilch effect on meat production. Unless there are a significant number of vegans (several percent) you stopping to buy meat gets lost entirely in the random fluctuations of meat consumption at the supermarket level, and most likely has only a single effect: slightly increasing the amount of food waste. You've gone from "We killed an animal to eat it" to "We killed an animal to throw its meat away."

Thirdly, vegan diets have serious effects on third-world countries where some of the staple crops for the diet are grown in awful working conditions. Aren't third-world people worthy of moral consideration? They are also animals after all.

If you want to have a fancy diet for yourself then that's all fine. But stop this pretense about "moral considerations for animals."
Interesting points, and if true are worth considering also given that sometimes counter-intuitive things can be true.

It doesn't change the fact that a lot of people who say, "But I don't understand why someone would give up bacon and then try to eat plant-based bacon. It...like...makes no sense bruh!" are not even bothering to engage the ethical question.
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Old 6th February 2021, 09:15 PM   #72
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Moral consideration for animals one finds worthy of moral consideration, maybe.

Insects and rodents donít get much moral consideration at all, especially when they are infesting food crops or homes. I know some Vegans and they donít bat an eye when they swat that fly. On the other side, I know a lot of hunters too. No problem with killing deer and birds for sport and food, posting pictures of all the animals theyíve killed. But one of them wanted to be sure that the snake I found inside my house was released back into the wild and not killed. People are weird.

Anyway, I donít see anything at all weird about a Vegan restaurant getting a Michelin star. If their chef is cooking at that level, then it doesnít matter if they are cooking animals or plants.
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Old 7th February 2021, 08:44 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
Interesting points, and if true are worth considering also given that sometimes counter-intuitive things can be true.

It doesn't change the fact that a lot of people who say, "But I don't understand why someone would give up bacon and then try to eat plant-based bacon. It...like...makes no sense bruh!" are not even bothering to engage the ethical question.
I don't understand how this indicates a failure to engage the ethical question.
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Old 8th February 2021, 11:38 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Veal is also a funny one as it is the one of the few times I am on the Vegie/vegans side, and won't eat it.

Some of the practices to get it aren't nice.

Same with Foie gras.
Yeah, me too.

I did see a bit on a tv show once about a farm that was attempting to raise ethical veal - the calves were free-range, got fed properly, were cared for and slaughtered humanely, etc. But that was one farm, I don't know if they even still exist, and the veal that I can get at the supermarket was definitely not raised that way.

And foie gras? Just no. There is no ethical way to produce fois gras.
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Old 9th February 2021, 01:20 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, me too.

I did see a bit on a tv show once about a farm that was attempting to raise ethical veal - the calves were free-range, got fed properly, were cared for and slaughtered humanely, etc. But that was one farm, I don't know if they even still exist, and the veal that I can get at the supermarket was definitely not raised that way.

And foie gras? Just no. There is no ethical way to produce fois gras.
Regarding veal.

In the UK we have rose veal which is like the ethical veal you describe.

Veal is an inevitable by-product of the dairy industry. There isn't enough of a demand to justify raising male dairy calves to adulthood.
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Old 9th February 2021, 04:50 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Yeah, me too.

I did see a bit on a tv show once about a farm that was attempting to raise ethical veal - the calves were free-range, got fed properly, were cared for and slaughtered humanely, etc. But that was one farm, I don't know if they even still exist, and the veal that I can get at the supermarket was definitely not raised that way.

And foie gras? Just no. There is no ethical way to produce fois gras.

But foie gras is so delicious!

I find the idea that there is an ethical way to treat an animal that you going to end up killing so that you can sell its meat for profit to be a little...weird. Feel-good nonsense really.

ďI gave it a good life before gently killing it it, slitting its neck from ear to ear (or cutting its head off), letting the blood drain out and butchering the carcass.Ē

They are food animals. If we are ok with killing them to eat them, what does the rest matter in the big scheme of things? Treat the animal in a way that makes it the best food animal it can be. Thatís what I care about.
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Old 9th February 2021, 04:53 PM   #77
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Best explanation I've heard so far is that we treat animals humanely not to affirm their humanity but to affirm ours.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:01 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Best explanation I've heard so far is that we treat animals humanely not to affirm their humanity but to affirm ours.
Tell that to the mostly third-world workers picking the vegan staple crops in horrible working conditions.

And yes, the working conditions in meat farming aren't any better, but then meat eaters at least aren't walking around pretending to be all morally pure and humane about it.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:17 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Tell that to the mostly third-world workers picking the vegan staple crops in horrible working conditions.

And yes, the working conditions in meat farming aren't any better, but then meat eaters at least aren't walking around pretending to be all morally pure and humane about it.
Well, that begs the question that vegans are doing this to affirm their humanity.
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Old 9th February 2021, 05:18 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
But foie gras is so delicious!

I find the idea that there is an ethical way to treat an animal that you going to end up killing so that you can sell its meat for profit to be a little...weird. Feel-good nonsense really.

ďI gave it a good life before gently killing it it, slitting its neck from ear to ear (or cutting its head off), letting the blood drain out and butchering the carcass.Ē

They are food animals. If we are ok with killing them to eat them, what does the rest matter in the big scheme of things? Treat the animal in a way that makes it the best food animal it can be. Thatís what I care about.
i think itís universally accepted that people should try to inflict as little unnecessary suffering on the world as possible.

but if thatís feel good nonsense, I think you could make good argument that telling someone they gave it a good life and humanely killed it would allow more people to enjoy the meal than telling them the animal was abused and killed in the most horrific manner they could think of.
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