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#41 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,665
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Are Michelin stars like hotel stars?
Apparently the star rating for hotels is based primarily on which perks they offer. Like having a concierge, perhaps, is worth a star. But the stars don't actually rate things like quality of basic services. So you can find yourself staying at a filthy hotel with terrible customer service, but it's still four stars because it has laundry service or something. |
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#42 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
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#43 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Dundee
Posts: 3,254
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Fundamentally the Michelin stars are supposed to be based purely on the food - quality, consistency, value for money etc. but it would be naive to assume that they don't take more general aspects into consideration. However, there are examples of, for instance, street food stalls with Michelin stars, so there's no hard and fast rules.
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"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" Isaac Asimov Not all cults are bad - I've joined a cult of niceness ![]() |
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#44 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 760
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#45 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
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The Michelin stars are based entirely on the Michelin travel guide. The stars represent whether the restaurant is worth a visit. One star says that it is. Two stars say that it's worth a detour off your planned route. Three stars say that it's worth a special trip.
Of course, it's become much more than that over time. |
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#46 |
BOFH
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,496
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The Blue Moon Cafe right? Agreed. The Fat Cat is a lot better. Yes my first veggie restaurant was the Veggie Ashoka in Glasgow. The Ashoka was at the time one of the most popular Indian restaurants in Glasgow and their veggie food was so in demand that they opened a specifically veggie branch. I was taken their by omnivore friends because the food was absolutely delicious. Some of the best Indian food I ever ate. I also have vague memories of the first Indian restaurant in the UK getting a Michelin star being quite big news at the time. However like Squeegee I think the bigger shift is that all the major supermarkets in this area now have big meat-free sections. |
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"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. |
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#47 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,097
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#48 |
BOFH
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: People's Republic of South Yorkshire
Posts: 13,496
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"Your deepest pools, like your deepest politicians and philosophers, often turn out more shallow than expected." Walter Scott. |
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#49 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,361
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#50 |
Muse
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Northumberland, UK
Posts: 760
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Oh waaaaaaay before Blue Moon: Brick Rabbit on Infirmary Road. It was run by friends of friends. I went once as I thought it might be good, it wasn't. I went the second and third times as I had my arm severely twisted to go help support them. I do not think my comments about lack of flavour were ever fed back to them. (As an aside, I was accustomed to cooking for groups of a dozen conservation volunteers for a weekend or a week at a time, on naff all money, which tended to mean vegetarian or vegan - OK, we always had at least one vegetarian and vegan present. We always managed to make flavoursome food in sufficient quantity to feed folk before, during and after a day of hard, physical work.)
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#51 |
Master Poster
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,097
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"Townes Van Zandt is the best songwriter in the whole world and I'll stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table in my cowboy boots and say that." Steve Earle "I've met Bob Dylan's bodyguards and if Steve Earle thinks he can stand on Bob Dylan's coffee table, he's sadly mistaken." Townes Van Zandt |
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#52 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,131
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i'm not vegan but there's probably tons of vegan dishes that taste good. it's not all frozen veggie burgers
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#53 |
Maledictorian
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 14,681
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Technically, veal is a dairy product.
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So what are you going to do about it, huh? What would an intellectual do? What would Plato do? |
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#54 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,132
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#55 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,361
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#56 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
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I don't see the problem and have no idea why this is so often used as an argument against veganism.
Vegans have no right to make vegan bacon is about as meaningful to me as atheists have no right to celebrate Christmas. If you like it, you like it. It doesn't mean you are duty bound to include the ingredients you find objectionable. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#57 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,254
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What's hard to understand?
Say you were brought up always wanting to be vegan/vegetarian, but your legal guardian insisted that you eat meat because they honestly believed that you couldn't get all the nutrition you needed from a vegan/vegetarian diet. It turns out that you actually liked the flavour of some meat dishes, but you still have moral objections to the slaughter of animals. If there's a dish out there that recreates that eating experience, but where nothing more conscious than a fungus is killed, then surely you can understand why someone would eat it? You can look at it a different way, if you like. Say you enjoyed a particular hobby. Kite-flying, because why not. There are two ways to do it. One involves what we would normally think of as kite-flying, and the other involves first shooting a dog in the head. Would you struggle to understand why people opt for the method that doesn't involve killing a dog? Or, even, do you struggle to understand why people strove to create make-up that wasn't tested on animals and why many people choose those brands? Besides, you seem to be pitching this as a zero-sum game. It's entirely possible to have a diet that includes both veggie burgers and falafels. |
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#58 |
should be banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Earth, specifically the crusty bit on the outside
Posts: 16,132
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What I am saying is that when you set the highest standard possible as the same as something else you can probably do better.
Nearly as good as meat - no thanks I would rather have meat. Note I am going purely on a taste and texture basis rather than considering any moral or planet benefits. I think there are better things you can do with vegetables than trying to make them look or taste like a beef burger.. Cauliflower tikka is great, we have it regularly, so much better than chikkin Tikka or whatever they call it. Basically, celebrate the ingredients don't take an ingredient and try to make it taste like sonethkng else. YMMV. |
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#59 |
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
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I have always found it a bit weird as well.
I have 2 not vegan, but vegetarian sisters. When we have a BBQ we kind of either have 2 BBQs going or separate a section, which is cool, for the vegetarians. Vegetarian sausages are actually quite nice, as a sausage is basically a type of prep/presentation. Burgers all good as the same. Then it suddenly turns into trying to make boring stuff as close as possible to resemble and taste what they refuse to eat like that horrible vegie fake chicken and the steak thing. Then in worst case scenario you get this type of thing. https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/116...ake-meat-stunt
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#60 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,776
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#61 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,776
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#62 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,665
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Yeah, in the sense that it's a by-product of dairy farms:
"Dairy cows must give birth to continue producing milk, but male dairy calves are of little or no value to the dairy farmer. A small percentage are raised to maturity and used for breeding." https://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/portal...table/ct_index Once again, technically correct is the worst kind of correct. Were you trying to be clever, or do you think veal really is technically one of the dairy foods? |
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#63 |
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
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#64 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,776
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#65 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 6,534
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I was brought up in a very meat and potatoes household.
I'm now trying to eat less meat for ethical/environmental/health reasons and my SO is a vegetarian, so I eat meat relatively infrequently. I still crave the dishes I was brought up with or enjoyed at other times in my life. I find myself particularly craving some of the texture and taste of meat products. I don't get these weird attempts to argue there is something wrong with that. Individual aesthetic preference is just that, a preference. No argument can make an aesthetic preference wrong or invalid. I love celebrating veggies for what they are. I also make regular use of meat alternatives. It's not a binary question. |
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The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON |
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#66 |
Suspended
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: NZ
Posts: 19,832
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Fair enough.
Can actually understand this side of it. My only other issue is they keep putting them in the butchery (meat bit) of NZ supermarkets. (maybe a regional thing) And their branding seems to fly close to being fake that it isn't meat (at least here). On the upside for vegans it always seems to be the reduced lot as no one buys it. |
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#67 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 31,254
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I don't trust atoms. They make up everything. |
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#68 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
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It's one thing to deliberate and come to the conclusion that animals are not as worthy of moral consideration as humans, but it seems to me really odd when someone cannot even fathom why they are of any moral consideration whatsoever.
It doesn't surprise me when some people I suspect of being racist are also completely at ease snickering at anyone who wants to give animals any moral consideration. It should probably be expected. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#69 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,748
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I'm kind of surprised it took this long.
I have no issue whatsoever with vegan food, even though I am personally an omnivore. I would happily eat at a good vegan restaurant (and I have) because I like to try different things. |
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A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare |
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#70 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,874
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And this is exactly why people don't like holier-than-thou vegan types. You're not giving animals any moral consideration.
Firstly, depending on where you live a vegan diet kills more animals, and in more cruel ways, than an omnivore diet. This is especially true in places where cattle grazes (ie is not fed on animal feed) and where agricultural practices include the mass killing of rodents in fields. For example Australia is such a place, if you live in Australia and really cared about giving animals consideration (as opposed to really cared about your own pretense at caring about animals) you'd eat beef instead of vegan. Secondly, even in places where a vegan diet kills less animals than a omnivorous diet, choosing a vegan diet most likely has exactly zilch effect on meat production. Unless there are a significant number of vegans (several percent) you stopping to buy meat gets lost entirely in the random fluctuations of meat consumption at the supermarket level, and most likely has only a single effect: slightly increasing the amount of food waste. You've gone from "We killed an animal to eat it" to "We killed an animal to throw its meat away." Thirdly, vegan diets have serious effects on third-world countries where some of the staple crops for the diet are grown in awful working conditions. Aren't third-world people worthy of moral consideration? They are also animals after all. If you want to have a fancy diet for yourself then that's all fine. But stop this pretense about "moral considerations for animals." |
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin |
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#71 |
Philosophile
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 29,395
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Interesting points, and if true are worth considering also given that sometimes counter-intuitive things can be true.
It doesn't change the fact that a lot of people who say, "But I don't understand why someone would give up bacon and then try to eat plant-based bacon. It...like...makes no sense bruh!" are not even bothering to engage the ethical question. |
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"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893) |
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#72 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,160
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Moral consideration for animals one finds worthy of moral consideration, maybe.
Insects and rodents don’t get much moral consideration at all, especially when they are infesting food crops or homes. I know some Vegans and they don’t bat an eye when they swat that fly. On the other side, I know a lot of hunters too. No problem with killing deer and birds for sport and food, posting pictures of all the animals they’ve killed. But one of them wanted to be sure that the snake I found inside my house was released back into the wild and not killed. People are weird. Anyway, I don’t see anything at all weird about a Vegan restaurant getting a Michelin star. If their chef is cooking at that level, then it doesn’t matter if they are cooking animals or plants. |
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#73 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,665
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#74 |
Observer of Phenomena
Pronouns: he/him Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Ngunnawal Country
Posts: 70,273
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Yeah, me too.
I did see a bit on a tv show once about a farm that was attempting to raise ethical veal - the calves were free-range, got fed properly, were cared for and slaughtered humanely, etc. But that was one farm, I don't know if they even still exist, and the veal that I can get at the supermarket was definitely not raised that way. And foie gras? Just no. There is no ethical way to produce fois gras. |
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#75 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Sir Fynwy
Posts: 31,361
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#76 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9,160
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But foie gras is so delicious! I find the idea that there is an ethical way to treat an animal that you going to end up killing so that you can sell its meat for profit to be a little...weird. Feel-good nonsense really. “I gave it a good life before gently killing it it, slitting its neck from ear to ear (or cutting its head off), letting the blood drain out and butchering the carcass.” They are food animals. If we are ok with killing them to eat them, what does the rest matter in the big scheme of things? Treat the animal in a way that makes it the best food animal it can be. That’s what I care about. |
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#77 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,665
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Best explanation I've heard so far is that we treat animals humanely not to affirm their humanity but to affirm ours.
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#78 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 7,874
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Tell that to the mostly third-world workers picking the vegan staple crops in horrible working conditions.
And yes, the working conditions in meat farming aren't any better, but then meat eaters at least aren't walking around pretending to be all morally pure and humane about it. |
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"Ideas are also weapons." - Subcomandante Marcos "We must devastate the avenues where the wealthy live." - Lucy Parsons "Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin |
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#79 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 49,665
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#80 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,131
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i think it’s universally accepted that people should try to inflict as little unnecessary suffering on the world as possible.
but if that’s feel good nonsense, I think you could make good argument that telling someone they gave it a good life and humanely killed it would allow more people to enjoy the meal than telling them the animal was abused and killed in the most horrific manner they could think of. |
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