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Old 25th May 2020, 05:25 AM   #601
Rincewind
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Step 1. Get people to down-play the threat
Step 2. Spread the infection
Step 3. Create more panic
Step 4. Ruin economies
Step 5. Start wars and famines
Step 6. Mutate to a deadlier strain without immunity for the first one

Rinse and repeat.
And this is apparently the best that God could come up with?

If it was a human that was doing the above, it's likely that they'd be roundly condemned by most of humanity.

But it's God - so that's OK...

If God was really the maker of everything, then we are his design - and have proven faulty in lots of ways [look up any list of human imperfections]. I can't see why that's our fault, and we need to be punished.

In the Bible you have his exhortation to be fruitful and multiply. As that's what's happened, the he only has himself to blame. Incompetence layered on incompetence.

If he really needs to reduce the population then, being omniscient, he'd had realized this many years ago, and simply reduced the fertility of humans.

Simply done - and no need for stupidly complex plans that don't seem to be working.

Oh, and if he really designed us with added free will, then he should accept that many of us will reject him. Punishing people for exercising his 'present' is the act of a sadist.
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Old 25th May 2020, 09:46 AM   #602
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Lots of pressure to get things done.

So I will not be too responsive for a while. There is time to see how the Covid-19 plays out. After the long weekend in the USA I wonder how much of a spike there will be.

God seems to be looking after my wife. Despite the chaos things are doing okay with her. She is a genuinely good person and if there is a God, she is one person who deserves some "looking after". I will not use it a reason that God exists, but it is a small confirmation to me that his existence is probable.
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Old 25th May 2020, 09:53 AM   #603
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
And this is apparently the best that God could come up with?

If it was a human that was doing the above, it's likely that they'd be roundly condemned by most of humanity.

But it's God - so that's OK...

If God was really the maker of everything, then we are his design - and have proven faulty in lots of ways [look up any list of human imperfections]. I can't see why that's our fault, and we need to be punished.

In the Bible you have his exhortation to be fruitful and multiply. As that's what's happened, the he only has himself to blame. Incompetence layered on incompetence.

If he really needs to reduce the population then, being omniscient, he'd had realized this many years ago, and simply reduced the fertility of humans.

Simply done - and no need for stupidly complex plans that don't seem to be working.

Oh, and if he really designed us with added free will, then he should accept that many of us will reject him. Punishing people for exercising his 'present' is the act of a sadist.

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Old 25th May 2020, 10:23 AM   #604
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
God seems to be looking after my wife. Despite the chaos things are doing okay with her. She is a genuinely good person and if there is a God, she is one person who deserves some "looking after". I will not use it a reason that God exists, but it is a small confirmation to me that his existence is probable.
It beggars belief that you could post this whilst so many good people are watching their equally good partners die slow painful deaths from Covid19, which you are claiming has been sent by your god for that specific purpose. Have you no shame?
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Last edited by Pixel42; 25th May 2020 at 12:09 PM. Reason: To avoid a yellow card
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Old 25th May 2020, 02:34 PM   #605
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It beggars belief that you could post this whilst so many good people are watching their equally good partners die slow painful deaths from Covid19, which you are claiming has been sent by your god for that specific purpose. Have you no shame?
I agree. My mother was another 'Genuinely good person', but thanks to your God she spent the last eight years of her life suffering with Alzheimer's - and our family also suffered.

Except, of course, it wasn't God, just 'life'.
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Old 25th May 2020, 03:50 PM   #606
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
It beggars belief that you could post this whilst so many good people are watching their equally good partners die slow painful deaths from Covid19, which you are claiming has been sent by your god for that specific purpose. Have you no shame?
Well, according to PS, the whole thing is an illusion in god's brain, or some such thing. He doesn't have any real alternative to acting as if his own part in the illusion is a reality, but, given the premise, it's easy enough to see everyone else, the people he will never know or interact with, as immaterial abstractions. And it's not, after all, really all that different from the usual holier-than-thou "god's smitings are for other folks!" attitude that more standard religions seem to engender.

(Gotta admit, I'm kind of wondering what you said before deciding on the edit to avoid the yellow card. You're normally one of the coolest, most self-possessed posters here, so it must have been pretty bad.)
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Old 25th May 2020, 09:02 PM   #607
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Well, according to PS, the whole thing is an illusion in god's brain, or some such thing. He doesn't have any real alternative to acting as if his own part in the illusion is a reality, but, given the premise, it's easy enough to see everyone else, the people he will never know or interact with, as immaterial abstractions. And it's not, after all, really all that different from the usual holier-than-thou "god's smitings are for other folks!" attitude that more standard religions seem to engender.
I got into serious trouble with a religious person on another board by pointing out that people who thank god for sparing them from natural disasters or accidents which killed others are essentially saying they're more deserving of mercy than the ones who died. Some people just refuse to see the logical implications of what they're saying.

Quote:
(Gotta admit, I'm kind of wondering what you said before deciding on the edit to avoid the yellow card. You're normally one of the coolest, most self-possessed posters here, so it must have been pretty bad.)
It wasn't that bad - it probably wouldn't have actually got me a yellow card - it was just unnecessary. As you say, that's not my way.

Incidentally it's now well over two weeks since PS agreed to do a simple blind test of his hypothesis that having the WiFi on increases his headaches. Given the benefit to his health should his hypothesis prove false (obviously once he knows it's not the WiFi his blood pressure should no longer spike when it's on) you would have thought he'd be keen to find out.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 25th May 2020 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 25th May 2020, 10:33 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I got into serious trouble with a religious person on another board by pointing out that people who thank god for sparing them from natural disasters or accidents which killed others are essentially saying they're more deserving of mercy than the ones who died. Some people just refuse to see the logical implications of what they're saying.


It wasn't that bad - it probably wouldn't have actually got me a yellow card - it was just unnecessary. As you say, that's not my way.

Incidentally it's now well over two weeks since PS agreed to do a simple blind test of his hypothesis that having the WiFi on increases his headaches. Given the benefit to his health should his hypothesis prove false (obviously once he knows it's not the WiFi his blood pressure should no longer spike when it's on) you would have thought he'd be keen to find out.
Just a quick post before I go to the factory.

Yesterday I spent 2 hours and then 1 hour later at the house with the cell mast. I wore a head shield but not body covering.

Last night I was not in good shape. Mild headache, increased tinnitus, but a really sore stomach.

Skeptics - psychosomatic!

Me - Yeah, right. Believe what you want. It will not spare you from the effects.
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Old 25th May 2020, 10:48 PM   #609
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It's not a question of belief, it's a question of evidence. You have a simple way to find out if your suspicion (and that's all it is in the absence of objective evidence) is correct, but you still haven't taken it. Why are you so reluctant to find out if you are right?

Also 'electrosmog' and 'psychosomatic' are not the only possibilities.
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Last edited by Pixel42; 25th May 2020 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 25th May 2020, 11:15 PM   #610
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Just a quick post before I go to the factory.

Yesterday I spent 2 hours and then 1 hour later at the house with the cell mast. I wore a head shield but not body covering.

Last night I was not in good shape. Mild headache, increased tinnitus, but a really sore stomach.

Skeptics - psychosomatic!

Me - Yeah, right. Believe what you want. It will not spare you from the effects.
Yes it will, I work in a LOT of wifi, as do all my colleagues. And none of them have those effects. That's the whole thing with psychosomatic illnesses, if you don't think you'll have it, you won't be affected.
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Old 26th May 2020, 03:09 AM   #611
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I got into serious trouble with a religious person on another board by pointing out that people who thank god for sparing them from natural disasters or accidents which killed others are essentially saying they're more deserving of mercy than the ones who died. Some people just refuse to see the logical implications of what they're saying.


It wasn't that bad - it probably wouldn't have actually got me a yellow card - it was just unnecessary. As you say, that's not my way.

Incidentally it's now well over two weeks since PS agreed to do a simple blind test of his hypothesis that having the WiFi on increases his headaches. Given the benefit to his health should his hypothesis prove false (obviously once he knows it's not the WiFi his blood pressure should no longer spike when it's on) you would have thought he'd be keen to find out.
I read it pre-edit. Probably not cardable, but true anyway.
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Old 26th May 2020, 04:21 AM   #612
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Originally Posted by Lukraak_Sisser View Post
Yes it will, I work in a LOT of wifi, as do all my colleagues. And none of them have those effects. That's the whole thing with psychosomatic illnesses, if you don't think you'll have it, you won't be affected.
I've worked with RF my entire life, ranging from VLF right up to Ku band, at power levels up to 5kW. By "worked", I don't mean just being the vicinity of the fields, I mean actually designing, building, testing and using the equipment to generate/transmit/receive and analyse.

I know a lot of the big players in the RF design world, and none of them have presented any of these symptoms that PartSkeptic seems to have. In fact, they all seem to be in pretty good shape for their ages (yeah, we're getting old).

What I really don't get is how these supposed head shields and body covers work. Firstly, for any shield of any sort to work, there has to be very good grounding. Secondly, any hole in a shield is going to allow RF in at higher frequencies. Even when working with VCO and synthesizer designs around 2 GHz, I literally had to make the modules waterproof - feedthrough capacitors on all control lines, solid ground everywhere, coaxial connectors in and out.

Thirdly, tinfoil does squat when it comes to shielding. Don't even get me started on space blankets.

I did a lot of testing on this sort of pseudoscience a couple of decades ago, when I took on Fostac and their cellphone-radiation-reducing button. Back then I had use of a state-of-the-art RF anechoic chamber and some of the best spectrum analysers and signal generators money could buy (military, gotta love them). There was conclusive proof that Fostac were gulling the public - they were not very nice to me afterwards, but I at least got their product removed from SA shelves, and it gave me the warm feeling of a job well done.

Of course, this is anecdotal, and thanks to a massive data loss I had about 5 years ago, I no longer can share my Fostac efforts. I also realise that PartSkeptic does not really understand RF, and is, from the looks of it, psychosomatic. I think he realises this, but does not want to face up to the possibility that he is just getting old, and is looking for some sort of excuse.

The fact that he is avoiding doing a double blind test points to his need to keep the delusion going.
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:03 AM   #613
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I will read the new posts later.


I have a terrible headache. I forgot my head shield at the new house and was going to pick it up before meeting the electrician at the cell tower house. It has been difficult to connect and get him to quote and get the work done. So when he called and said he would be there in 10 minutes I went straight there from the factory. I thought it would not take long to show him the work after it had been detailed in an email. It took an hour and I was outside and at the back close to the tower.

The headache started an hour after getting home. I had to lie down, and I lay there just suffering. My tinnitus which is usually quite faint was not loud. It is late and I am going to sleep. The effect usually lasts into the next day. I hope it does not. I hope I am able to work.

What a reminder I got of just how bad it can be.

ETA: I will respond to the last post. I see enough bad info to do so. He may work with the stuff but understanding the physics is something else.
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Last edited by PartSkeptic; 26th May 2020 at 11:06 AM. Reason: Glanced at the last post
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:33 PM   #614
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
He may work with the stuff but understanding the physics is something else.
Sure. Just like you think arc welding does not create electric fields. That is some world class understanding of physics right there, isn't it.

No, no, according to you, arc welding just creates UV light.
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:57 PM   #615
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Hi Roger.Good to see you again. Was it Bitcoin that we agreed on - and yet it keeps going?
Yep, propped up by a shared delusion of wealth from nothing. Half the price it was over 2 years ago, but still...

Quote:
Can you explain why my blood pressure goes to nearly normal if I go the country side where the electrosmog is almost zero? It takes about 4 days.
Like I said, confirmation bias. There could be many reasons for the blood pressure variation, including the stress of worrying about your blood pressure!

Quote:
The electrosmog acts as a catalyst to amplify any medical problem.
No, 'electrosmog' is not a catalyst of any medical problem. But your imagination might be.

Quote:
Example 1. My knee replacement started failing with 2 days of high radiation in the old house lounge. It only started after I got out of bed to watch TV. When I realized the worker had not foil-lined the lounge ceiling I wrapped my leg in foil. The relief was almost immediate
What level is 'high' radiation, and how did you measure it?

Tinfoil around your leg could have other effects that are far more powerful than its ability to shield EMI (useless below 1MHz, not effective at GHz frequencies unless there are no gaps). For example it is a good reflector of IR, so could trap body heat. Muscles and joints often respond well to warmth.

Quote:
Example 2. I started getting a burning sensation on my right upper thigh when visiting our old home next to the cell tower. It took about 45 minutes to manifest and about 4 hours to dissipate. This was quite repeatable. Then I started to get burning even when away from the tower. I did some research. It is a nerve that is not happy. It took about a week for me to realize that if I wore my normal size underwear the pain would happen. If I wore a larger size it would not happen. The elastic was pressing on the nerve. If I went to the house after a week of wearing the larger underwear I would not get the pain. Conclusion. The nerve was in the early stages of being stressed. The emf made it worse. When the nerve healed, the emf did not have an effect.
Confirmation bias again. The emf didn't make it worse, the condition was getting worse anyway.

The problem with an observation like this is that any unrelated thing that changes is not necessarily the cause. IOW correlation does not equal causation. In this case you found the cause, and it was not what you thought. So you should reject your first hypothesis and go with what you found was the cause. Furthermore the actual cause was logical and reasonable, whereas the other one wasn't.

Quote:
Lessons from God.

Believe it or not!
I feel your frustration, but as a technician with extensive experience in electronics I don't take any correlation as proof, particularly when there is no known mechanism for cause and effect. One thing I found out doing electronic fault diagnosis is that 99.9% of the time the cause is mundane - a dry joint, a broken track, a dried out capacitor - even when the fault is quite perplexing. So I start out with no preconceptions, but great skepticism - until I have proved the real cause of the problem. It's embarrassing to charge a customer for 'fixing' a fault only to have it reappear because I didn't find the root cause.

I apply the same skepticism to my health. Just because a headache came on after x or a pain when in place y, doesn't mean x or y caused it. Only when the correlation is confirmed by multiple occurrences and a likely cause is identified do I believe it.

Right now I am feeling pain in my right arm and wrist. This time I know what caused it - 3 weeks of repetitive strain potting 82,000 apple seeds. Next time, who knows? Any minor strain might set it off. But it won't be triggered by being close to a cellphone tower, because I know that the signal strength is miniscule and the effect practically unmeasurable. And since the only effect at cellphone frequencies is localized heating, it would more likely make it (insignificantly) better than worse.
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Old 26th May 2020, 02:05 PM   #616
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I have a terrible headache. I forgot my head shield at the new house and was going to pick it up before meeting the electrician at the cell tower house... It took an hour and I was outside and at the back close to the tower.

The headache started an hour after getting home.
So, no correlation?

Quote:
He may work with the stuff but understanding the physics is something else.
I work with the stuff and I do understand the physics, which is why I don't wear a tinfoil hat.
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Old 26th May 2020, 02:20 PM   #617
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Last night I was not in good shape. Mild headache, increased tinnitus, but a really sore stomach.
Oh oh. Headache, increased tinnitus, sore stomach? Feeling light-headed? Coughed more than once? You might have Covid-19!

I can't tell you many times over the last month I thought I was coming down with it. Yet the symptoms always soon disappeared. And I keep reading about more and more possible symptoms. Now any little thing that previously I would have brushed off might mean I have the virus! Or not.
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Old 26th May 2020, 02:37 PM   #618
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What level is 'high' radiation, and how did you measure it?

Look out of the window and see if the sun is shining?
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Old 26th May 2020, 04:37 PM   #619
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There is a real possibility there is something wrong with your house (and it is not 5G related :-)). There were well documented cases like this: radon gas, small heating gas leak, poisonous dye in tapestry, poisonous fungi etc.. So, if you mysterious symptoms pop up only at your place, stop your wild-goose chase and investigate some other more "real" possibilities.
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Old 26th May 2020, 07:24 PM   #620
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
ETA: I will respond to the last post. I see enough bad info to do so. He may work with the stuff but understanding the physics is something else.

Please, go right ahead. Firstly, I'd like to know the difference between your version of physics and mine. Considering that deep knowledge of MY version of physics, the one that I learned in university as the basis for my engineering and astronomy degree, is essential for working with RF (besides most other worldly and off-worldly things).

Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
I work with the stuff and I do understand the physics, which is why I don't wear a tinfoil hat.
Exactly.
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Old 26th May 2020, 10:35 PM   #621
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
I've worked with RF my entire life, ranging from VLF right up to Ku band, at power levels up to 5kW. By "worked", I don't mean just being the vicinity of the fields, I mean actually designing, building, testing and using the equipment to generate/transmit/receive and analyse.

I know a lot of the big players in the RF design world, and none of them have presented any of these symptoms that PartSkeptic seems to have. In fact, they all seem to be in pretty good shape for their ages (yeah, we're getting old).

What I really don't get is how these supposed head shields and body covers work. Firstly, for any shield of any sort to work, there has to be very good grounding. Secondly, any hole in a shield is going to allow RF in at higher frequencies. Even when working with VCO and synthesizer designs around 2 GHz, I literally had to make the modules waterproof - feedthrough capacitors on all control lines, solid ground everywhere, coaxial connectors in and out.

Thirdly, tinfoil does squat when it comes to shielding. Don't even get me started on space blankets.

I did a lot of testing on this sort of pseudoscience a couple of decades ago, when I took on Fostac and their cellphone-radiation-reducing button. Back then I had use of a state-of-the-art RF anechoic chamber and some of the best spectrum analysers and signal generators money could buy (military, gotta love them). There was conclusive proof that Fostac were gulling the public - they were not very nice to me afterwards, but I at least got their product removed from SA shelves, and it gave me the warm feeling of a job well done.

Of course, this is anecdotal, and thanks to a massive data loss I had about 5 years ago, I no longer can share my Fostac efforts. I also realise that PartSkeptic does not really understand RF, and is, from the looks of it, psychosomatic. I think he realises this, but does not want to face up to the possibility that he is just getting old, and is looking for some sort of excuse.

The fact that he is avoiding doing a double blind test points to his need to keep the delusion going.

Make no mistake, there are plenty of frauds out there playing on the fears of of the general public who are getting enough anecdotal evidence - BACKED by science - to have reason to worry. So exposing frauds is easy and you cannot dismiss the fact that when properly designed and applied there are mitigations that work. I have tested a number of them. Forget about magnets and crystals - there is no scientific basis except placebo effect.

It did not take the microwave industry long to realize that standing in front of the transmitters was harmful. Even today there are signs on the towers warning people of the hazard and worker have instructions to switch off if working on the antenna. Many do not, figuring (quite rightly) that they are working behind the antenna.

So my question to you is - how many times and for how long did you sit or work or sleep in front of active antennae?

My next statement is that it is only the pulsed cell phone signals that are the ones doing damage. So I ask again. Have you lived under a cell tower that radiates downwards. Forget about the older directional towers - the radiation next to them would have been much lower. The newer towers have antenna that radiate forward and downwards. Are you aware of them and their radiation pattern? I have done the research and I have taken actual field measurements on a number of towers.

Now we come to the head shield. The tower radiates downwards so the radiation has a source (think of the sun). A shield reflects the radiation (think of a mirror). So there is much less radiation behind the shield. My head shield covers my head except for my face. I ask you - how much radiation coming from above enters my head?

A dish antenna is a metal or metal coated dish. It reflects the source radiation (from a satellite) into the receiver. It concentrates it. How much radiation is directly behind the dish?

Why does a dish antenna need grounding/earthing? Only for direct lightning strikes.

The size of the holes(s) determine how much radiation can pass through. Check out the holes in the metal screen on your microwave oven. A 2mm hole blocks most of the radiation from a microwave whose wavelength is many times 2mm.

A space blanket does not work at all because it has only a thin sputtering of aluminium to stop heat radiation. It is too thin and non-conductive to be a shield. I know that without having to research it (although I did).

I am not aiming for 100 % blockage. 99 % will do just fine. Without the shield I get 3,000 uW/sqm from the tower. 1% is 30uW/sqm and that I can tolerate that for a short time without a headache.

I worked in the electronic design industry and had to test radiation susceptibility and emissions and also had all the equipment you had.

Do you understand photons and how to calculate their energy and their number? Do you understand how the absorption of these photons takes place in a living cell? Do you understand when to use the wave theory and when to use the particle theory in this area? Do you understand cell signalling and ion channels in living cells? Do you understand the mechanisms of how cancers are created by ionizing and non-ionizing radiation? And if you tell me that non-ionizing radiation does not cause cancer then you do not understand the latest research.

The history of your colleagues does not match the latest technology for duration of exposure, intensity of exposure and type of exposure. The explosion of cases showing harm is yet to come. But before that, the subtle effect such as the reduction of immune system - if only briefly - which may allow Covid-19 to spread may do the first round of damage.

In this field with multiple specialties - it is my opinion you are not an authority. A poser maybe
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:33 AM   #622
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Quote:
Make no mistake, there are plenty of frauds out there playing on the fears of of the general public who are getting enough anecdotal evidence - BACKED by science - to have reason to worry. So exposing frauds is easy and you cannot dismiss the fact that when properly designed and applied there are mitigations that work. I have tested a number of them. Forget about magnets and crystals - there is no scientific basis except placebo effect.
Agreed, proper design is essential for a product/device to work correctly. Where have I dismissed this fact?

Tested a number of what? Please specify here.

I have not mentioned magnets or crystals anywhere, and fail to understand why you would bring these up.

Quote:
It did not take the microwave industry long to realize that standing in front of the transmitters was harmful. Even today there are signs on the towers warning people of the hazard and worker have instructions to switch off if working on the antenna. Many do not, figuring (quite rightly) that they are working behind the antenna.So my question to you is - how many times and for how long did you sit or work or sleep in front of active antennae?

My next statement is that it is only the pulsed cell phone signals that are the ones doing damage. So I ask again. Have you lived under a cell tower that radiates downwards. Forget about the older directional towers - the radiation next to them would have been much lower. The newer towers have antenna that radiate forward and downwards. Are you aware of them and their radiation pattern? I have done the research and I have taken actual field measurements on a number of towers.
Yes, yes, the microwave industry realised microwaves were harmful around about the same time they were invented. However, it's the effective radiated power (ERP) that is more important - I'll get to that a little later.

I know that standing DIRECTLY next to high power transmitter is not good for you. I've had RF burns, they are not fun (HF @ 15 MHz, 1000W, CW tuning).

How often have I stood next to / close to / in front of radiating antennae? More times than I can count. Sleeping next to them? Why yes! Admittedly not very high levels, only 25W, but omnidirectional antennae, 1 meter away - didn't have a choice, we were on active duty and I was the radio operator. Standing in front of transmitting waveguides? Again, yes! Although always a respectful distance in these cases - as you so kindly pointed out, microwaves can be harmful.

All that said, I fail to see how this has anything to do with establishing my credentials as an RF expert. but whatever.

However, let's get real and look at some fun facts:

At a cell site, the total RF power that can be transmitted from each transmitting antenna depends on the number of radio channels (or transmitters) that have been authorized (through the FCC or ICASA or any other relevant regulatory body - generally I use FCC guidelines) and the power of each transmitter. Although the FCC permits an ERP of up to 500 watts per channel (depending on the tower height), the majority of cellular sites in urban and suburban areas operate at an ERP of 100 watts per channel or less.

An ERP of 100 watts corresponds to an actual radiated power of 5-10 watts, depending on the type of antenna used. In urban areas, cell sites commonly emit an ERP of 10 watts per channel or less. As with all forms of electromagnetic energy, the power density from a cellular transmitter rapidly decreases as distance from the antenna increases.

Consequently, normal ground-level exposure is much less than the exposure that might be encountered if one were very close to the antenna and in its main transmitted beam. Measurements made near typical cellular and PCS cell sites have shown that ground-level power densities are well below the exposure limits recommended by RF/microwave safety standards used by the FCC.

Let's quickly put some figures to the attenuation. I prefer working in dBm, if you don't mind - I find it a much more useful measurement to work with, especially when designing - the most important factors to consider, like attenuation and IP3 ratings are always given in dBs.

Let's take 100W as a starting point, seeing as this is the ERP the majority of cellphone towers give out. I'll be generous and not use radiated power, although that should be the actual level I should use. Notice also that this will relate to your later question about tower types.

This is the formula:

x (dBm) = 10.log10(P/1mW)

So, 100W = 50 dBm.

Now, let's calculate the attenuation that exists 10m from the antenna. Again, I'm being generous here, as most transmitting antenna placements are higher than this. Using the formula for free space loss, we can calculate the attenuation 10 m away.

FSPL = 20.log10(d) + 20.log10(f) + 20.log10(4.pi/c) - Gt - Gr

I'll use 900 MHz as a starting frequency - in SA you use both 900 MHz and 1.8 GHz bands.

10 meters away from the antenna, you've got an attenuation of 51.52 dB. In other words, your transmitted signal has been attenuated in free air by this amount. So, the signal you are receiving on your skin (if you like) is (50 - 51.52) dBm = -1.52 dBm.

Converting that back to Watts for you, that equates to around 700 uW. That's roughly the equivalent of a Bluetooth link. To put it into a little more context, your cellphone radiates at a (maximum) output of 21 dBm, or 125 mW.

Note that I'm assuming here you are standing in the main lobe of the beam, and not one of the sidelobes, which will have a far lesser signal strength, and which are the typical "downward-facing" transmission paths. This negates your comment about old and new towers and associated radiation patterns.

One more comment about your "pulsed" towers: whether or not a tower is pulse transmitting or continuously transmitting, the transmitting (carrier) frequency is the same. With a pulsed tower you would get less radiation in any given period of time.

Quote:
Now we come to the head shield. The tower radiates downwards so the radiation has a source (think of the sun). A shield reflects the radiation (think of a mirror). So there is much less radiation behind the shield. My head shield covers my head except for my face. I ask you - how much radiation coming from above enters my head?
Firstly, aluminium foil has no magnetic properties, and as such is a pretty bad material to use for RF shielding. Secondly, with no grounding the RF will basically pass straight through. If you were totally enclosed in foil, that would help (your Faraday cage). The main trick to a Faraday cage is that RF energy is converted to free electrons in the cage (like any antenna) and they always rush away from each other to the outside surface of the cage. That works great to block external RF because the electrons distribute themselves to cancel out internal fields, leaving it RF quiet. However, anything less than complete coverage cancels this effect.

If you grounded your tinfoil hat, then any RF energy impinging on the hat would be shorted to ground, and you would have some protection.

Quote:
A dish antenna is a metal or metal coated dish. It reflects the source radiation (from a satellite) into the receiver. It concentrates it. How much radiation is directly behind the dish?

Why does a dish antenna need grounding/earthing? Only for direct lightning strikes.
There are other reasons to ground an antenna besides protection from lightning strikes. It depends on the antenna type. Some types of antenna are unbalanced and are designed to operate with a ground connection to enable them to operate correctly. Many vertical antennas, for example employ a ground plane. This is a simulated ground made from a sheet of conductor which typically extends out to a quarter wavelength from the antenna.

Balanced antennas like dipoles do not need an RF ground for their correct operation as long as common-mode currents are kept off the feeder.

You will get less radiation behind the dish antenna, because essentially the RF energy is being picked up and passed into the receiver.

Quote:
The size of the holes(s) determine how much radiation can pass through. Check out the holes in the metal screen on your microwave oven. A 2mm hole blocks most of the radiation from a microwave whose wavelength is many times 2mm.

A space blanket does not work at all because it has only a thin sputtering of aluminium to stop heat radiation. It is too thin and non-conductive to be a shield. I know that without having to research it (although I did).

I am not aiming for 100 % blockage. 99 % will do just fine. Without the shield I get 3,000 uW/sqm from the tower. 1% is 30uW/sqm and that I can tolerate that for a short time without a headache.
Hole size determines what frequencies are attenuated. Sure, a 2mm hole is going to block your microwave frequencies that have a wavelength of 12.2 cm. I have used crosshatched shields before, in applications where my criteria have not been that tight. However, in cases where I've been trying to capture signals 8 dB above the thermal noise floor, and I'm having to downconvert my VCO frequencies to get superclean output signals (which then produce harmonics all over the place), I've had to use solid, solid shielding. Holes don't cut it.

You're getting 3mW per square meter from a cellphone tower?? At what distance?

Quote:
I worked in the electronic design industry and had to test radiation susceptibility and emissions and also had all the equipment you had.
You did? Where did you work? What equipment did you use? What did you design? I don't know of many places that had that type of setup. In fact, there was only one place in Cape Town (besides our in house one) that had everything bar the kitchen sink. Johannesburg was different. The reason RF design is so niche in SA is exactly because of the cost of the equipment. When you're paying over $250k for one spectrum analyser, you need big money.

Quote:
Do you understand photons and how to calculate their energy and their number? Do you understand how the absorption of these photons takes place in a living cell? Do you understand when to use the wave theory and when to use the particle theory in this area? Do you understand cell signalling and ion channels in living cells? Do you understand the mechanisms of how cancers are created by ionizing and non-ionizing radiation? And if you tell me that non-ionizing radiation does not cause cancer then you do not understand the latest research.
What part of "I understand physics" do you not get? I'm fully aware of photons, wave and particle theory, and the mechanisms of all. Stop being condescending.

In a nutshell, non-ionising radiation (NIR) damages cells through heating, which supposedly can lead to cancer, thanks to the free radicals produced. Ionising radiation causes cancer through DNA damage. HOWEVER, NIR needs to be intense to do that. I'll fully admit that I'm a layman in this field - I'm an engineer, not a doctor. Neither, I suspect, are you.

Quote:
The history of your colleagues does not match the latest technology for duration of exposure, intensity of exposure and type of exposure. The explosion of cases showing harm is yet to come. But before that, the subtle effect such as the reduction of immune system - if only briefly - which may allow Covid-19 to spread may do the first round of damage.
You do realise that the RF and microwave design fields have been around for nearly 100 years now? That in the past we've had much higher transmission sources around us, until the advent of techniques like spread spectrum, and design of more sensitive receiver design and encoding schemes that negate the need for brute force transmission? The science is beyond question and fully understood.

Still waiting on that "explosion of cases"...

Quote:
In this field with multiple specialties - it is my opinion you are not an authority. A poser maybe
That's funny. In my opinion you're a conspiracy theorist playing in a field you do not understand. All you've put forward is rambling tales of your ill health, and how it's linked to electrosmog, and how we're all gonna die in a welter of RF-induced viruses. Without any proof, I might add.
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:22 AM   #623
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A couple of things I forgot to ask:

Quote:
I am not aiming for 100 % blockage. 99 % will do just fine. Without the shield I get 3,000 uW/sqm from the tower. 1% is 30uW/sqm and that I can tolerate that for a short time without a headache.
.

What measurements are you getting with your tinfoil hat? You've obviously got the equipment (though I'm a bit dubious of your instrument, to be honest - 3mW is a little high.) It should be any easy task to check my theory, ungrounded and grounded.

When do you intend doing the double blind test mentioned up thread?

Please explain why you think pulsed microwave transmissions do more damage than (what? Continuous transmitters?).

Ta, thanks.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:22 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
Agreed, proper design is essential for a product/device to work correctly. Where have I dismissed this fact?

Tested a number of what? Please specify here.

I have not mentioned magnets or crystals anywhere, and fail to understand why you would bring these up.



Yes, yes, the microwave industry realised microwaves were harmful around about the same time they were invented. However, it's the effective radiated power (ERP) that is more important - I'll get to that a little later.

I know that standing DIRECTLY next to high power transmitter is not good for you. I've had RF burns, they are not fun (HF @ 15 MHz, 1000W, CW tuning).

How often have I stood next to / close to / in front of radiating antennae? More times than I can count. Sleeping next to them? Why yes! Admittedly not very high levels, only 25W, but omnidirectional antennae, 1 meter away - didn't have a choice, we were on active duty and I was the radio operator. Standing in front of transmitting waveguides? Again, yes! Although always a respectful distance in these cases - as you so kindly pointed out, microwaves can be harmful.

All that said, I fail to see how this has anything to do with establishing my credentials as an RF expert. but whatever.

However, let's get real and look at some fun facts:

At a cell site, the total RF power that can be transmitted from each transmitting antenna depends on the number of radio channels (or transmitters) that have been authorized (through the FCC or ICASA or any other relevant regulatory body - generally I use FCC guidelines) and the power of each transmitter. Although the FCC permits an ERP of up to 500 watts per channel (depending on the tower height), the majority of cellular sites in urban and suburban areas operate at an ERP of 100 watts per channel or less.

An ERP of 100 watts corresponds to an actual radiated power of 5-10 watts, depending on the type of antenna used. In urban areas, cell sites commonly emit an ERP of 10 watts per channel or less. As with all forms of electromagnetic energy, the power density from a cellular transmitter rapidly decreases as distance from the antenna increases.

Consequently, normal ground-level exposure is much less than the exposure that might be encountered if one were very close to the antenna and in its main transmitted beam. Measurements made near typical cellular and PCS cell sites have shown that ground-level power densities are well below the exposure limits recommended by RF/microwave safety standards used by the FCC.

Let's quickly put some figures to the attenuation. I prefer working in dBm, if you don't mind - I find it a much more useful measurement to work with, especially when designing - the most important factors to consider, like attenuation and IP3 ratings are always given in dBs.

Let's take 100W as a starting point, seeing as this is the ERP the majority of cellphone towers give out. I'll be generous and not use radiated power, although that should be the actual level I should use. Notice also that this will relate to your later question about tower types.

This is the formula:

x (dBm) = 10.log10(P/1mW)

So, 100W = 50 dBm.

Now, let's calculate the attenuation that exists 10m from the antenna. Again, I'm being generous here, as most transmitting antenna placements are higher than this. Using the formula for free space loss, we can calculate the attenuation 10 m away.

FSPL = 20.log10(d) + 20.log10(f) + 20.log10(4.pi/c) - Gt - Gr

I'll use 900 MHz as a starting frequency - in SA you use both 900 MHz and 1.8 GHz bands.

10 meters away from the antenna, you've got an attenuation of 51.52 dB. In other words, your transmitted signal has been attenuated in free air by this amount. So, the signal you are receiving on your skin (if you like) is (50 - 51.52) dBm = -1.52 dBm.

Converting that back to Watts for you, that equates to around 700 uW. That's roughly the equivalent of a Bluetooth link. To put it into a little more context, your cellphone radiates at a (maximum) output of 21 dBm, or 125 mW.

Note that I'm assuming here you are standing in the main lobe of the beam, and not one of the sidelobes, which will have a far lesser signal strength, and which are the typical "downward-facing" transmission paths. This negates your comment about old and new towers and associated radiation patterns.

One more comment about your "pulsed" towers: whether or not a tower is pulse transmitting or continuously transmitting, the transmitting (carrier) frequency is the same. With a pulsed tower you would get less radiation in any given period of time.



Firstly, aluminium foil has no magnetic properties, and as such is a pretty bad material to use for RF shielding. Secondly, with no grounding the RF will basically pass straight through. If you were totally enclosed in foil, that would help (your Faraday cage). The main trick to a Faraday cage is that RF energy is converted to free electrons in the cage (like any antenna) and they always rush away from each other to the outside surface of the cage. That works great to block external RF because the electrons distribute themselves to cancel out internal fields, leaving it RF quiet. However, anything less than complete coverage cancels this effect.

If you grounded your tinfoil hat, then any RF energy impinging on the hat would be shorted to ground, and you would have some protection.



There are other reasons to ground an antenna besides protection from lightning strikes. It depends on the antenna type. Some types of antenna are unbalanced and are designed to operate with a ground connection to enable them to operate correctly. Many vertical antennas, for example employ a ground plane. This is a simulated ground made from a sheet of conductor which typically extends out to a quarter wavelength from the antenna.

Balanced antennas like dipoles do not need an RF ground for their correct operation as long as common-mode currents are kept off the feeder.

You will get less radiation behind the dish antenna, because essentially the RF energy is being picked up and passed into the receiver.



Hole size determines what frequencies are attenuated. Sure, a 2mm hole is going to block your microwave frequencies that have a wavelength of 12.2 cm. I have used crosshatched shields before, in applications where my criteria have not been that tight. However, in cases where I've been trying to capture signals 8 dB above the thermal noise floor, and I'm having to downconvert my VCO frequencies to get superclean output signals (which then produce harmonics all over the place), I've had to use solid, solid shielding. Holes don't cut it.

You're getting 3mW per square meter from a cellphone tower?? At what distance?



You did? Where did you work? What equipment did you use? What did you design? I don't know of many places that had that type of setup. In fact, there was only one place in Cape Town (besides our in house one) that had everything bar the kitchen sink. Johannesburg was different. The reason RF design is so niche in SA is exactly because of the cost of the equipment. When you're paying over $250k for one spectrum analyser, you need big money.



What part of "I understand physics" do you not get? I'm fully aware of photons, wave and particle theory, and the mechanisms of all. Stop being condescending.

In a nutshell, non-ionising radiation (NIR) damages cells through heating, which supposedly can lead to cancer, thanks to the free radicals produced. Ionising radiation causes cancer through DNA damage. HOWEVER, NIR needs to be intense to do that. I'll fully admit that I'm a layman in this field - I'm an engineer, not a doctor. Neither, I suspect, are you.



You do realise that the RF and microwave design fields have been around for nearly 100 years now? That in the past we've had much higher transmission sources around us, until the advent of techniques like spread spectrum, and design of more sensitive receiver design and encoding schemes that negate the need for brute force transmission? The science is beyond question and fully understood.

Still waiting on that "explosion of cases"...



That's funny. In my opinion you're a conspiracy theorist playing in a field you do not understand. All you've put forward is rambling tales of your ill health, and how it's linked to electrosmog, and how we're all gonna die in a welter of RF-induced viruses. Without any proof, I might add.

FWIW, I can tell that you actually do know what you are talking about given my own education.

Equally, I also know that PS is pointlessly futtering around in an area he knows nothing at all about.
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Old 28th May 2020, 01:17 AM   #625
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Yesterday, there was an emergency at the cell tower house the electricians were upgrading to new conformance rules. A lot of work. I had installed a water meter and ball shut-off for the water inside the property for a variety of reasons. I turned on the water which had been off while the house was vacant. When the workers got to the apartment above the garage they found a flood from a burst toilet feed. I had the necessary clean-up in my car (from the factory work) and was just around the block. I did not wear my head shield in the rush to clean up and check the other work. It was an hour. Then at night I went to lock up and secure and forgot my shield at home. It was half an hour of exposure.

So I was "wasted" last night. Headache and feeling ill. Am tired and not feeling well this morning. I have to go to the house to interact with the workers soon. I WILL wear my shield. I will take my meter and check the shielding, although it is not the same as wearing it.

Some interesting replies - and I can properly respond to all. Hopefully later today.

My wife groaned about the water. I pointed out that it could have been much worse. The tenant could have been in occupation, and it could have been a weekend she was away. The damage would have been great. The only harm here was a worker cleaning the 2 inches of water up from the tiled floor.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:32 AM   #626
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I replaced the directional antenna of the Gigahertz HF35C meter with a little stub antenna. The meter dropped to 10% of the value just holding the head shield over the meter. When I pushed the sides together to prevent ground and side reflections the meter dropped to 1%.

Tell me what would have happened if I put a wire from the shield into a copper rod hammered in the ground? In other words, if the shield was grounded.

There is a formula for the gain of a dish antenna. Are there two formulae - one with a ground and one without a ground? What about the dish antenna used on aircraft and space craft? Why do they work without a ground?

I am discussing the 2G, 3G and 4G cell phones signals. Not magnetic or electric fields or EM radiation of other frequencies. The meter has a bandwidth of 0.8 t0 2.5 Ghz.

I have done the power calculations because I know how to do them. I have done measurements. They agree with the measurements done at high cost by the Telcos in our court battle. My measurements are pretty much the same. The highest radiation is 5 meters from the tower and decreases steadily as one moves away. Except for pockets where the reflections are additive. I have done measurements on towers with directional antenna that have the lobes and the fall-off that you talk of. I still remember my University theory on this. And these towers have their highest peak at about 200-300 meters from the tower.

Scientific studies (not my own imagination) show that pulsed fields behave differently on living cells that steady fields. I am not talking about the modulation of the signal. I am talking about the fact that the signals are only ON for one-eighth of the time. The other seven-eighths of the time the cell tower antenna is talking to another cell phone.

The power in these time slots varies according to how good the signals are. If four phones are far away the power is high, and if the other four phones are close the power is low. This ca be seen on the meter where the readings can be switched between RMS and Peak.

How can you misunderstand what I was talking about?

A microwave oven, even at high power but less than the safe limit, is steady. It does not affect human cells the same way as the actual cell tower emissions. Again, all of this has science studies detailing and measuring the effects.

The pulsations affect the calcium ion channels. The effect has been computer modeled and shows how the flow of calcium ions ion the channel is disrupted. One calcium ion at a time. And only calcium in a one-way stream. Not sodium, not potassium and not other ions. The engineering of these ion channels is astounding. The way a living organism "manufactures" the ion channel protein which requires assemblies of various amino acids and requires that the protein be folded in just the right sequence and places is even more amazing.

Do you have any comprehension of how complex and how delicate life is? That delicateness is compensated for by an incredible repair and check mechanisms. But 24 hours a day, 7 days a week of microwave bombardment is hard for a body to keep compensating.

I have taken the time to read and learn as much microbiology as I can with regard to ion channels and inter-cell (including nerves and neurons) communicate - and how they are formed an how sensitive to ion strength and cell membrane differential they are. Heating has very little to do with it until the heating is excessive.

Your suggestion that I am a layman who is not qualified is disingenuous and your bias is extreme to so suggest. I have 2,400 files on EMFs, and 1,800 files on microbiology, and 1,600 videos and pictures. And downloads of various books. And those are only the ones worth keeping. But you seem to have made up your mind that you know all you need to know.


If you guys want a technical and professional debate then you need to up your game.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:40 AM   #627
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
A couple of things I forgot to ask:

.

What measurements are you getting with your tinfoil hat? You've obviously got the equipment (though I'm a bit dubious of your instrument, to be honest - 3mW is a little high.) It should be any easy task to check my theory, ungrounded and grounded.

When do you intend doing the double blind test mentioned up thread?

Please explain why you think pulsed microwave transmissions do more damage than (what? Continuous transmitters?).

Ta, thanks.
A little high! The meter meter only goes up to 2mW/sqm. I had to estimate the Peak using the RMS. The German engineers did not think that anyone had to measure such high values. See my previous post.

Pulsed emf vs steady. Are you really interested in the references, or are you just wanting to waste my time? Will you read them with an open mind? I have not had the time to organize the vast stash of literature, and to find the good ones that I have in mind is not easy.
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Old 28th May 2020, 07:59 AM   #628
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[quote=EvilBiker;13103120(snip)

You did? Where did you work? What equipment did you use? What did you design? I don't know of many places that had that type of setup. In fact, there was only one place in Cape Town (besides our in house one) that had everything bar the kitchen sink. Johannesburg was different. The reason RF design is so niche in SA is exactly because of the cost of the equipment. When you're paying over $250k for one spectrum analyser, you need big money.

(snip)
[/QUOTE]


I worked in Auckland New Zealand at Avnet (the industry supplier for electronics) for 2 1/2 years in 2000 and 2001/2. We were given the latest technology and asked to develop applications or to make demos for industry. Hardware, firmware and software. Including power supplies to drive the devices.


There were four of us. One electronics designer/manager, one pcb man and one software specialist, and I assisted but was given smaller projects in their entirety. We had our own EMF chamber and all the necessary equipment to design and test the design. But we were not certified so we took the final product to the National Standards for the approval.

The project that was the first (and very big) one was the design of LED brake-lights. So commonplace now but then they were revolutionary. They had very stringent requirements. We had environmental chambers to cycle temperature and humidity. The latest PCB design tools. We also had the facility to make eight layer pcbs in house. One to two days start to finish. The guys I worked with were GOOD and taught me a lot.

Another project we worked on was the development of USB memory sticks. And touchscreens for PDA devices using Android OS. I personally wrote and tested the Microsoft driver software for a Korean keyboard. I designed a circuit for an FPGA chip using a grapefruit and two nails (one copper, one zinc) as the power supply. Then I designed and made the pcb. Then I wrote the software for the device. Worked fine. Then I produced the files and documents to have the board mass produced.
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:14 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
(snip)

In a nutshell, non-ionising radiation (NIR) damages cells through heating, which supposedly can lead to cancer, thanks to the free radicals produced. Ionising radiation causes cancer through DNA damage. HOWEVER, NIR needs to be intense to do that. I'll fully admit that I'm a layman in this field - I'm an engineer, not a doctor. Neither, I suspect, are you.

(snip)

Wrong enough to be industry speak and propaganda. There are many studies showing harm at very low levels and at levels where the heating is not a factor.

NIR damages the cell due to the free radicals produced by interfering with the ion channels and causing reactive oxygen species (ROS). The excess ROS damages the DNA causing cancer. It does not have to be intense to do that. But as with all radiation and toxins there is a dose/duration situation. The worse problem is the damage that the ROS does without causing cancer. Low and slow can be pretty devastating.

Even IR does the damage using mainly ROS. Only about 20 to 40 % of the damage is from direct double strand breaks. The single strand breaks are detected and repaired. But the dose/duration is quite different and much easier to measure and to do epidemiological studies on. No-one doubts the studies.
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:13 AM   #630
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So you're just going to ignore all the studies and metastudies that contradict the handful of studies that appear to support what you've already decided to believe, because of subjective experiences you still haven't bothered to verify with a simple blind test?
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:30 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
So you're just going to ignore all the studies and metastudies that contradict the handful of studies that appear to support what you've already decided to believe, because of subjective experiences you still haven't bothered to verify with a simple blind test?

All those studies are just more evidence of the conspiracy.

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Old 28th May 2020, 12:29 PM   #632
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
<snip for brevity>
Please quote correctly. Is that too much to ask of your supposed genius?
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Old 28th May 2020, 03:18 PM   #633
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I replaced the directional antenna of the Gigahertz HF35C meter with a little stub antenna. The meter dropped to 10% of the value just holding the head shield over the meter. When I pushed the sides together to prevent ground and side reflections the meter dropped to 1%.
What do '10%' and '1%' represent?

Quote:
I have done the power calculations because I know how to do them. I have done measurements. They agree with the measurements done at high cost by the Telcos in our court battle.
Oh oh. Exactly what are you 'battling' for?

Quote:
A microwave oven, even at high power but less than the safe limit, is steady. It does not affect human cells the same way as the actual cell tower emissions.
Sorry, but this is not true. Most microwave ovens pulse the power at mains frequency (50/60Hz), and also do it at a lower frequency (<1Hz) when at less than full power.

Quote:
Do you have any comprehension of how complex and how delicate life is? That delicateness is compensated for by an incredible repair and check mechanisms. But 24 hours a day, 7 days a week of microwave bombardment is hard for a body to keep compensating.
Delicateness is relative. You claim that very low level cellphone signals have an immediate affect on your health. But even the 'high' readings you got only a few meters away from the tower were much lower than other rf sources such as the sun (0.002W/m2 vs 1000W/m2). And (as you well know) signal strength reduces with the square of distance.

So let's talk about 'delicateness' and 'bombardment'. The Sun is a known cause of cancer - my mother died from it aged 49. I work outside in the summer, and even though I slap on the sunscreen and cover up as much as possible, my skin is getting visibly damaged. A few uW of microwave rf are the least of my worries.

But you insist that wearing a 'tinfoil hat' alleviates symptoms that are not known to be caused by GHz frequency rf even at dangerously high levels, let alone the extremely weak signal that is present inside your house, that purportedly occur after only minutes of exposure (not '24 hours a day, 7 days a week'), and whose attenuation by the tinfoil is iffy at best.

Quote:
I have taken the time to read and learn as much microbiology as I can...

Your suggestion that I am a layman who is not qualified is disingenuous
No, it isn't. You are a layman, and your understanding of microbiology is suspect. It is not your field so you should listen to what the science says, not make you own evaluations. Even your understanding of rf electronics is suspect, but the worst thing is that you are using what little you know to bolster your confirmation bias.

You call yourself PartSkeptic, so I guess this is the part that isn't skeptical.
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Old 29th May 2020, 01:58 AM   #634
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I'm going to make some comments before directly addressing your post(s) in detail afterwards.

Firstly, let's compare your $300 meter to what we use in industry.

Spot the difference?

If you want remotely accurate measurements, you need the proper equipment. What you have in your possession is the equivalent of a coalmine canary - it tells you whether RF is around, and (thanks to the directional antenna) gives you a very rough idea which direction it is coming from. The readings you are getting are meaningless, because you have no standard to compare them to, ie. no calibration.

I can GUARANTEE you that if you had 10 of these meters, and you did exactly the same measurement with all of them, you would get wildly different results, varying by factors of 1000. How do I know this? Well, firstly because I have l33t skillz, and secondly because I have done exactly that. We investigated getting a cheap version for general first pass testing - once we realised what rubbish they were, we went the professional route.

These are highly sensitive, broadband devices - as they are so sensitive, they are impossible to calibrate to any known standard, their response varies with heat, humidity, and just bloody-mindedness.

They have a high pass filter in them, which will attenuate the top end of the spectrum by about 60dB. However, they do NOT have a bandpass filter: the reason for this is to save costs: when you look at filtering out the low end of the spectrum, components get big and costly. In other words, you will pick up a lot of junk at really low frequencies, even 50Hz. I did some research into your specific device, and it seems some people are using it to trace mains lines. This will explain some of these weird measurements you are getting, and I'll cover that later when relevant.

So, how would you actually use these things? Well, only for relative measurements (and I use the term measurement loosely). For example, you want to figure out if a field is stable or not in an area over a period of time: you'd set up the meter in exactly the same place every day, at the same time, temperature, humidity level and orientation, so as to minimise any variance from the measurement side.

You did try to do a relative measurement on your tinfoil hat (TFH), but you didn't do it correctly - I'll explain in a bit.

Ideally, you'd want to enclose the instrument in a grounded Faraday cage in position first to check what its baseline reading is.

Orientation? Oh yes: you do know, I assume hopefully, that cell towers transmit in the vertical and horizontal planes? So if you are holding your logperiodic antenna at 45 degrees, you'll get a different reading to a vertical or horizontal position?

Grounding your instrument or not? It seems like there is no ground point on yours - however, the coax connector has a metal shroud that could be used to provide a proper earth point. It will make all signals relative to true earth, and perhaps introduce a little stability. You are essentially grounding the instrument to a small extent by holding it, so I would not expect to see that much of a difference.

Ok, so on to your comments. I'll arrange them to fit my narrative:
Quote:
I replaced the directional antenna of the Gigahertz HF35C meter with a little stub antenna. The meter dropped to 10% of the value just holding the head shield over the meter. When I pushed the sides together to prevent ground and side reflections the meter dropped to 1%.
(The stub antenna is a 1/4 wave dipole - much lower gain than the logperiodic, and omnidirectional.)

So, let me sketch the scenario - you are holding the TFH in one hand, and the meter in another. What you are essentially doing is earthing the TFH through a weak capacitor created by your body, and you are doing the same with the meter, connecting them to a common ground, which will reduce spurious signals generated between different grounds.

It's a common technique in RF design to couple grounds through small capacitors to reduce noise - common values used range from 10 pF to 100 nF, depending on the frequency you want to attenuate. The capacitance your body presents would be perfect for the GHz range.

A better way to measure would be to have the TFH mounted on top of a wooden pole, then measure using the logP antenna underneath. Then attach the TFH to a metal pole, and do the same. You should see a drop in signal with the TFH in between your source and the meter. Which answers your question here:

Quote:
Tell me what would have happened if I put a wire from the shield into a copper rod hammered in the ground? In other words, if the shield was grounded.
On to your next comment:

Quote:
I am discussing the 2G, 3G and 4G cell phones signals. Not magnetic or electric fields or EM radiation of other frequencies. The meter has a bandwidth of 0.8 t0 2.5 Ghz.
You do realise that radio waves (ALL of them) consist of an electric field and a magnetic field? Maxwell proved this 1867. Cell phone signals are no different.

Bandwidth of your meter: well, in this case you are somewhat correct, because this thing is not tuneable, so the whole frequency range becomes the bandwidth. I would refer you to my comments above about the low range, though - you will be picking up signals way below 800 MHz, probably even down to 50 Hz.

Quote:
There is a formula for the gain of a dish antenna. Are there two formulae - one with a ground and one without a ground? What about the dish antenna used on aircraft and space craft? Why do they work without a ground?
The gain of a dish antenna (and most others) is related to the physical dimensions of the antenna and the frequency of operation. So, the same gain formula would relate to a grounded vs. differential input system. The grounding is more a factor for the feeder element.

Ground is relative to the system. For an aeroplane, the ground would be the aeroplane body, for a spacecraft it would be the metal hull.

There is not just one ground to be taken into consideration when it comes to RF. There is analog ground, signal ground, earth ground (although we just say earth) - they all play a part.

Quote:
I have done the power calculations because I know how to do them. I have done measurements. They agree with the measurements done at high cost by the Telcos in our court battle. My measurements are pretty much the same. The highest radiation is 5 meters from the tower and decreases steadily as one moves away. Except for pockets where the reflections are additive. I have done measurements on towers with directional antenna that have the lobes and the fall-off that you talk of. I still remember my University theory on this. And these towers have their highest peak at about 200-300 meters from the tower.
You cannot do calculations with crappy measurements. Bad data in, bad data out. Refer to meter quality and measurement techniques above.

Even if you had additive pockets (and how this occurs I hesitate to ask), the fact that you are so far away from the tower will mean that the signal(s) will be so small that any possible signal multiplication will be nowhere near the peaks at 5 meters.

I suspect that you are probably picking up another signal source from somewhere. Hell, you may be in an HF skip zone or maybe you stepped into a VHF field or something.

Quote:
Scientific studies (not my own imagination) show that pulsed fields behave differently on living cells that steady fields. I am not talking about the modulation of the signal. I am talking about the fact that the signals are only ON for one-eighth of the time. The other seven-eighths of the time the cell tower antenna is talking to another cell phone.
I understood you the first time. Power is measured in Watts, which is Joules per second. So, if you have a CW signal blasting RF at for 1 minute, you have x Joules of energy being directed at you. If that same source is on for 1/8th of the time, you have x/8 Joules of energy directed at you.

I won't comment on your cell theory, because frankly, that does not interest me. I'm only here to school you in RF a little.

Quote:
The power in these time slots varies according to how good the signals are. If four phones are far away the power is high, and if the other four phones are close the power is low. This ca be seen on the meter where the readings can be switched between RMS and Peak.
This is word salad, and I won't even bother to answer here. However, can you explain to me in your own words what you understand the difference in RMS and peak to mean, and how it relates to your meter? The fact that you mentioned some time later that you had to estimate peak values using RMS values makes me a little concerned.

Quote:
Your suggestion that I am a layman who is not qualified is disingenuous and your bias is extreme to so suggest. I have 2,400 files on EMFs, and 1,800 files on microbiology, and 1,600 videos and pictures. And downloads of various books. And those are only the ones worth keeping. But you seem to have made up your mind that you know all you need to know.
I have to comment on this: yes, you ARE a layman, especially when it comes to RF.

You said this:

Quote:
I worked in Auckland New Zealand at Avnet (the industry supplier for electronics) for 2 1/2 years in 2000 and 2001/2. We were given the latest technology and asked to develop applications or to make demos for industry. Hardware, firmware and software. Including power supplies to drive the devices.
<snip>
Another project we worked on was the development of USB memory sticks. And touchscreens for PDA devices using Android OS. I personally wrote and tested the Microsoft driver software for a Korean keyboard. I designed a circuit for an FPGA chip using a grapefruit and two nails (one copper, one zinc) as the power supply. Then I designed and made the pcb. Then I wrote the software for the device. Worked fine. Then I produced the files and documents to have the board mass produced.
So, you've worked with electronics FOR 2.5 YEARS and that makes you an expert? I look at the above and really, it's not rocket science - what sticks is the complete lack of RF work in there.

I'm also a bit dubious about your claims to have worked on touchscreens for PDAs using Android then, considering that Android's initial release was in 2008.

Why would you power an FPGA from a grapefruit?

I've been working in the RF/HW/SW field for over 30 years, and have developed and produced transmitters and receivers that are used by NATO and were used in SAAF Mirages, to name two instances. I've also worked in fire safety (design and manufacture), and know more about certification testing and standards than most. My fire detectors are protecting the Louvre. I think I can recognise a layman in my field when I see one.

Quote:
If you guys want a technical and professional debate then you need to up your game.
The irony is so thick here it's fractal. You cannot keep a train of thought, you have little idea about the fields you are gainsaying experts in, you refuse to actually take advice when it is offered, you never offer proof or back up your arguments with facts, and you are the one calling us unprofessional?

Sorry, you're not worth the time.
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Old 29th May 2020, 05:17 AM   #635
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To borrow a phrase - you guys are "not worth the time". You say it because I could undermine your "confidence". You are applying your own experience to areas that you have no experience. I DO know what I am talking about - but all I get it blunt statements to discredit me. I would love to debate with a proper referee and proper experts to pronounce on fact versus fiction. A number of statements show that there is a distinct lack of understanding for the various factors and how they work.

I make an exception for Roger. His comments are at least reasonable, and I would answer them. In fact, I will. That may be the end, unless he has some further comments to which I could add. I will just check in now and then - and will like post in the future as things move along.

Calling me a layman in various areas is not an argument that holds water. Either I understand the relative concepts or there is a finer detail that I have not chased down fully.

I have had judges and other legal professionals tell me that my legal work is quite superior when compared to the stuff that the courts normally see. It has to be - to overcome the bias against self-represented litigants. I have had lawyers tell me that my case cannot continue but when I apply to the Court for clarification, they confirm that the case is not dead.

The other irony about calling me a layman is that this area requires three skill sets - microbiology, microwave and physics.

Name one "expert" with these three skill sets that has studied this problem and produced a scientific paper?

It highlights a serious problem. The microbiologists have to work with "experts" in the field. With almost no exceptions, they ask for a microwave set-up that does not represent real life. Hence the studies are flawed. What they get is usually a steady even energy that has no pulsations, no combinations of frequencies, and no reflections and additions.

The complexity of this area makes it a dream for the "merchants of doubt" - and most posters here subscribe to the inaccurate memes.

I am here to learn. The big lesson so far is how intransigent people, who should know better, are. What else can I learn?
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Old 29th May 2020, 05:24 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
That may be the end, unless he has some further comments to which I could add. I will just check in now and then - and will like post in the future as things move along.
You posted this lie several times already. (And every single time you were back the very next day )

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am here to learn. The big lesson so far is how intransigent people, who should know better, are. What else can I learn?
Narcissism
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Old 29th May 2020, 05:44 AM   #637
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
What do '10%' and '1%' represent?

(snip)

Let me do this one post at a time. I have some other commitments, and I want to do justice to your post.

I took the meter and measured the radiation from the tower at a certain point. It was about 400 uW/sqm RMS. Then I held the head shield between the external directional antenne and the tower antenna. The reading went down to about 40 uW/sqm.

The external directional antenna cannot easily be "enclosed" by the ehad shield. This shield is made from aluminium mosquito mesh - one piece foled and shaped to cover my head from eyebrows to neck over my ears. Typical middle-ages steel helmet shape.

I replaced the antenna with a stub antenna about 3 inches long. The reading was now about 240 uW/sqm. It went down to about 25 uW/sqm. When I squeezed the sides of the helmet towars each other to eliminate the side and ground emf, the reading dropped to about 3.8uW/sqm.

I can take pictures and post them. How do I do that? Google Drive with a link?

Yes, I can tie a wire to the shield and tie it to a metal rod in the ground if you think that would make a change.
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Old 29th May 2020, 10:02 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
To borrow a phrase - you guys are "not worth the time". You say it because I could undermine your "confidence". You are applying your own experience to areas that you have no experience. I DO know what I am talking about - but all I get it blunt statements to discredit me. I would love to debate with a proper referee and proper experts to pronounce on fact versus fiction. A number of statements show that there is a distinct lack of understanding for the various factors and how they work.

I make an exception for Roger. His comments are at least reasonable, and I would answer them. In fact, I will. That may be the end, unless he has some further comments to which I could add. I will just check in now and then - and will like post in the future as things move along.

Calling me a layman in various areas is not an argument that holds water. Either I understand the relative concepts or there is a finer detail that I have not chased down fully.

I have had judges and other legal professionals tell me that my legal work is quite superior when compared to the stuff that the courts normally see. It has to be - to overcome the bias against self-represented litigants. I have had lawyers tell me that my case cannot continue but when I apply to the Court for clarification, they confirm that the case is not dead.

The other irony about calling me a layman is that this area requires three skill sets - microbiology, microwave and physics.

Name one "expert" with these three skill sets that has studied this problem and produced a scientific paper?

It highlights a serious problem. The microbiologists have to work with "experts" in the field. With almost no exceptions, they ask for a microwave set-up that does not represent real life. Hence the studies are flawed. What they get is usually a steady even energy that has no pulsations, no combinations of frequencies, and no reflections and additions.

The complexity of this area makes it a dream for the "merchants of doubt" - and most posters here subscribe to the inaccurate memes.

I am here to learn. The big lesson so far is how intransigent people, who should know better, are. What else can I learn?
You have a perfect opportunity to test your conclusions, yet appear not to want to?


Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My wife now tells me when she turns on her WiFi modem so I can go to the garage and work there and use shielding. I get a headache within 15 minutes if in the house with no shielding.

Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
.....
You are in a position to test this for yourself.

Get your wife to test you by turning the wifi on/pretend to turn the wifi on several times a day, you should know which is pretend and which is real within 15 minutes.

Make sure you count the misses as well as hits though.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
That's a much simpler test protocol than the one he proposed using foil lined boxes etc to test the effect of cell tower emf. All that's required is for him and his wife to sit in different rooms for a couple of hours each day and keep a written record.

Hypothesis: PartSkeptic will develop a headache within 15 minutes of the wifi being switched on.

Start with the wifi off. After 30 minutes she tosses a coin and switches it on if it's heads, leaves it off if it's tails. Then every 30 minutes she tosses the coin again and either leaves it as it is or switches it on/off as indicated. He records whether he thinks it's currently on or off five minutes before each coin toss is due. Put both records in envelopes, seal and date before leaving the separate rooms. Repeat a few times to get sufficient results to be statistically significant, then open the envelopes and compare the records.

Such an unwitnessed test won't be sufficient to convince anyone else, but the first person you need to convince of an hypothesis is yourself. At the moment he actually has no more reason to be convinced than we do, because the anecdotal evidence he has is wholly inadequate.

ETA: PS posted to say he will try it whilst I was posting. I await the result with interest.
doing the test would surely take less time than messing around with measuring rf levels on hats, it would also demonstrate (to you) that your headaches are caused by the wifi.

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Old 29th May 2020, 12:26 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
(snip)

Sorry, but this is not true. Most microwave ovens pulse the power at mains frequency (50/60Hz), and also do it at a lower frequency (<1Hz) when at less than full power.

(snip)

Nice one. Thanks for the link. I liked the video and did my own search. This one was very informative:

What is a MAGNETRON - How Does it Work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DpYlnHT-0s

There is a side benefit. I have two old non-working microwave ovens. I was considering fixing them because the parts are not expensive. The diode and the magnetron. Good advice about the beryllium.

I found myself rather "down" the last two days. I did not want to get on here and be subjected to abuse. That is unusual for me. I pride myself on being tough mentally and physically and never shying from confrontation. Mood is another another subtle effect of the microwaves from the tower. The last few nights I have had muscle pain across my shoulders as it I am under stress. The EMF causes my nerves to be artificially stimulated. This is in addition to the mental stress physically induced by the Emfs.

The population will find that depression and suicide may be increased. Of course, the causes can be attributed to any of a hundred factors. But if electrosmog makes primary causes worse, and affects the functioning of society then I would say that it is a concern. It might be some-ones child that commits suicide because of electrosmog. It is a personal lesson. I rarely feel "down". Sometimes I do not feel in the mood to do something and can procrastinate but that is different to what I have felt in the past few days.

To posters other than Roger. Feel free to reject this bit of information. It is for my benefit, not yours.

But back to the topic of MW ovens and pulsation. I was wrong to state that there was no pulsation. Commercial MW ovens are very cheap and my link mentions the short cuts they take. It is possible to do full wave rectification and get continuously energy out, but the cost would be much greater.

There are two issues with MW ovens. I use one for 1.5 minutes to heat my morning oats. I am often away from the oven when it is heating. This is a very short period. One time I measured the output I got very little but another time I got quite a bit on the meter. I suspect the door seal may be a problem but did not follow up. So the dose in terms of time is very low.

The next issue is the type of pulsation. Most meters have an audio signal to indicate what sort of signal one is getting. The meter companies put out samples. The oven reading has a smooth tone. But I will redo my testing and download the audios which I have not yet done.

The period of the pulsation is quite low. It is not the same as the cell phone tower output. One cannot compare a single cell phone to a tower for a multiple of reasons but the cell companies are constantly doing so. The biggest reason they want to downplay towers is that one can choose not to use a cell phone but one cannot turn off the tower.

What is interesting is that if the cell companies chose to operate at maximum output all the time it may not be as harmful.

The issue of harm is quite complex. I hear from people who are affected by masts. One told me that they are aware of the difference between 2G, 3G and 4G. They also know when the loading on the tower changes.

The science studies which deal with the pulsation issue have determined that some pulsation patterns are worse that others. It all has to do with the way the ion channels in the cells behave and try to adapt to the environment. With a steady emf signal it seems they compensate a little, although there is still effects. With a high pulsation rate, the extra stress on the cell is sort of filtered out. Unfortunately the cell phone pulsation rates seem to be maximally bad.

So thanks for the info, Roger. I have learned some lessons today.
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Old 29th May 2020, 12:32 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by RedStapler View Post
You posted this lie several times already. (And every single time you were back the very next day )



Narcissism

More like masochism - what with the abuse.
(No, I am a pain avoider - not my thing at all.)

I find this a distraction to my daily routine and it can be mentally challenging with the occasional nuggets. Addiction? The frustration can be intense at times. I did leave for quite a while and I threatened to a few times before I did.
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