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Tags Catholic incidents , church scandals , George Pell , sex scandals , sexual abuse charges , sexual abuse incidents , sexual misconduct charges

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Old 6th May 2020, 11:39 PM   #561
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I think there was a first jury, who heard and saw the accuser give evidence in person and did not return a verdict of guilty. So the correct denominator is 24. The second jury only saw video of the evidence.
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Old 7th May 2020, 01:19 AM   #562
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Hard to decide where to cut this in order to not violate Rule 4, because this is pretty damning. Click the link.

George Pell: cardinal was aware of children being sexually abused, royal commission report reveals
Pity they cannot prove their conclusions or Pell could have been charged with accessory after the fact.
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Old 7th May 2020, 02:22 AM   #563
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Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
Pity they cannot prove their conclusions or Pell could have been charged with accessory after the fact.
On what basis are you saying the conclusions cannot be proven? I understand that police are currently reviewing the findings.
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Old 7th May 2020, 03:03 AM   #564
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Originally Posted by Elaedith View Post
On what basis are you saying the conclusions cannot be proven? I understand that police are currently reviewing the findings.
Indeed they are. Pell is far from out of trouble.
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Old 7th May 2020, 03:46 PM   #565
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If it can be proved that Pell knew then he should have already been charged. The facts have been known for a long time.
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Old 7th May 2020, 04:16 PM   #566
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There is a comprehensive summary here. It's a bit hard to read and still keep the rage down.

History will not be kind to George Pell, as royal commission reveals its secret findings
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Old 7th May 2020, 04:49 PM   #567
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There is a comprehensive summary here. It's a bit hard to read and still keep the rage down.

History will not be kind to George Pell, as royal commission reveals its secret findings

I read that before and my rage is overflowing. Pell's credibility couldn't be lower.
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Old 7th May 2020, 05:59 PM   #568
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I read that before and my rage is overflowing. Pell's credibility couldn't be lower.
You and I have disagreed a lot on the past, Thor 2, but here we are in lockstep.
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Old 12th May 2020, 04:00 PM   #569
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Just learned that change.org have a petition going to take George's frock of him. I signed it.
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Old 16th May 2020, 07:20 AM   #570
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two responses to the Royal Commission

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
There is a comprehensive summary here. It's a bit hard to read and still keep the rage down.

History will not be kind to George Pell, as royal commission reveals its secret findings
Given that this article was written by Louise Milligan, I trust that she got the quotes correct...and nothing else. As far as the Royal Commission goes, I have yet to see evidence which supports their opinions.

"These views are not supported by evidence," the statement [from a spokesperson from Cardinal Pell] said.

"He [Cardinal Pell] is especially surprised by the statements in the report about the earlier transfers of Gerald Ridsdale discussed by the Ballarat Diocesan Consultors in 1977 and 82.

"The Consultors who gave evidence on the meetings in 1977 and 1982 either said they did not learn of Ridsdale's offending against children until much later or they had no recollection of what was discussed.

"None said they were made aware of Ridsdale's offending at these meetings."

Monica Doumit offered a rebuttal: "It was Cardinal Pell who ultimately removed him [Father Searson] as one of his first actions as Archbishop."
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Old 17th May 2020, 08:17 PM   #571
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
As far as the Royal Commission goes, I have yet to see evidence which supports their opinions.
Yes, I thought that findings based on "it is inconceivable that . . . ." sounded like a low standard of proof.
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:15 PM   #572
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
Monica Doumit offered a rebuttal: "It was Cardinal Pell who ultimately removed him [Father Searson] as one of his first actions as Archbishop."
Pell became Archbishop on 16 August 1996. He didn't take any action over Searson until 7 months later when he put him on administrative leave in March 1997 and didn't get rid of him until May 1997.

So it was hardly "one of his first actions as Archbishop"
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:25 PM   #573
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Pell is supposedly highly intelligent - he rose through the ranks and was eventually put in charge of Vatican finances. We cannot count him a fool.

He had received a delegation of teachers complaining about Searson, then of parents. The headmaster threatened to resign if Searson was not removed and the Church chose Searson.

How is it a "rebuttal" that Pell sat on his hands for 7 months even after becoming Archbishop before taking any action over Searson?
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:34 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Pell became Archbishop on 16 August 1996. He didn't take any action over Searson until 7 months later when he put him on administrative leave in March 1997 and didn't get rid of him until May 1997.


That is not what the article says:
Quote:
What happened when Cardinal Pell did have some authority over Searson, after becoming Archbishop of Melbourne in August 1996?

By October, Cardinal Pell had put in place and announced the Melbourne Response and appointed an independent commissioner to investigate allegations of child sexual abuse within the archdiocese. Shortly thereafter, Cardinal Pell confirmed to media that Mr O’Callaghan had investigated the allegations against Searson and, on 14 March, 1997, Searson had been suspended from ministry.
So it is not that he did "nothing". He instituted due process ASAP.
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:37 PM   #575
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Should we be surprised that Pell's defence team has mounted a spirited defence?
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Old 17th May 2020, 09:54 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Should we be surprised that Pell's defence team has mounted a spirited defence?
No but we should be surprised at the inconclusiveness of the evidence that the Royal Commission used to draw its conclusions (and this is from quotes from the report itself).
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Old 17th May 2020, 10:10 PM   #577
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is not what the article says:

So it is not that he did "nothing". He instituted due process ASAP.
He did not put Searson on adminstrative leave until 7 months after he became Archbishop, as I said.

Now you think that it is all OK that a couple of months after he became Archbishop he appointed an independent commissioner.

Pell had reports from teachers about Searson. He had complaints from parents. A headmaster had put his own job on the line to try and convince those in charge of the importance of removing Searson.

And Pell does not push for the removal of Searson.

When it becomes his actual job to remove Searson he waits a couple of months and appoints an investigator and in March 1997 he puts Searson on administrative leave.

He finally removes him in May 1997.
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Old 17th May 2020, 11:08 PM   #578
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Furthermore, the Searson matter was not referred to O'Callaghan until November 1996 and the Church had been given advice to put Searson on administrative leave in November 1996. He was not placed on administrative leave until March 1997.
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Old 18th May 2020, 01:19 AM   #579
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I am kind of surprised at how many are buying this idea of poor naive trusting Pell being misled and lied to by all around him at the same time he is rising up through those very ranks to become one of the most powerful people in the world.
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Old 18th May 2020, 03:47 AM   #580
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Originally Posted by Robin View Post
He did not put Searson on adminstrative leave until 7 months after he became Archbishop, as I said.
Yes, he should have said "**** due process".
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:08 AM   #581
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, he should have said "**** due process".
Sure, put kids in danger for another 7 months because putting Searson on administrative leave straight away would have been so unfair.

Brilliant!

Don't forget that Pell had legal advice to put Searson on administrative leave in November 1996 but had not acted until about 4 months later.

At this point Searson had the benefit of people looking the other way for 11 years after being caught more or less red handed by the Principal.

Yeah but no, just give him another 7 months to offend.
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Old 18th May 2020, 05:12 AM   #582
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Seriously, how would putting this guy on administrative leave straight away have denied him due process?

What hoops you guys will go through.to deny that Pell did the wrong thing.
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Old 18th May 2020, 06:01 AM   #583
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the failure of the Royal Commission

My previous comments were not in defense of Cardinal Pell as much as they were an attack on the conclusory language of the Royal Commission. I am willing to listen to reasonable arguments that Cardinal Pell should have acted more quickly against Father Peter Searson. However unlike Louise Milligan, I am not willing to accept what they wrote without evidence.
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Old 18th May 2020, 07:25 AM   #584
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NVM

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Old 20th May 2020, 05:13 AM   #585
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Yes, he should have said "**** due process".
Originally Posted by Robin View Post
Sure, put kids in danger for another 7 months because putting Searson on administrative leave straight away would have been so unfair.

Brilliant!

Don't forget that Pell had legal advice to put Searson on administrative leave in November 1996 but had not acted until about 4 months later.

At this point Searson had the benefit of people looking the other way for 11 years after being caught more or less red handed by the Principal.

Yeah but no, just give him another 7 months to offend.
Indeed, that's what administrative leave is for, to allow due process whilst protecting the public in case the allegations are true.

So why not prioritise that as soon as he became aware of the allegations. It's not as if they weren't serious.

Maybe Pell thought that actually abusing children was a lesser sin than causing adverse publicity?
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Old 20th May 2020, 02:59 PM   #586
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Indeed, that's what administrative leave is for, to allow due process whilst protecting the public in case the allegations are true.

So why not prioritise that as soon as he became aware of the allegations. It's not as if they weren't serious.

Maybe Pell thought that actually abusing children was a lesser sin than causing adverse publicity?

I think this is most likely.

I have often read in books about clergy (Catholic mostly), proclaiming their "love of the Church".
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Old 20th May 2020, 07:30 PM   #587
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think this is most likely.

I have often read in books about clergy (Catholic mostly), proclaiming their "love of the Church".
It's also official Catholic doctrine. The whole idea of "Canon Law" exists in order to prioritise the needs of the Church above the needs of the state.
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Old 25th May 2020, 05:46 PM   #588
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George Pell contempt case: charges over media that allegedly breached suppression orders will go to trial

Quote:
More than 20 publications and 19 journalists face trial for allegedly breaching suppression orders when Cardinal Pell was initially convicted


Contempt of court charges against the media amid allegations they breached a suppression order after Cardinal George Pell was found guilty of child sexual assault will go to trial in November.

Pell was acquitted of all charges by the high court on appeal last month. At an administrative hearing at the supreme court in Melbourne on Tuesday, the court heard that there are 21 separate publications, six corporate groups and 19 individual journalists involved in the contempt of court case.

The county court chief judge, Peter Kidd, imposed the suppression order on 25 June 2018 over the trial to prevent “a real and substantial risk of prejudice to the proper administration of justice” because Pell was facing a second trial on separate charges. Despite this, when Pell was convicted in December 2018, numerous publications in Victoria, throughout Australia and overseas reported the verdict before the suppression order was lifted.
The Guardian doesn't list the publications or journalists that are being charged.
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Old 26th May 2020, 01:28 AM   #589
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Finally! The True Culprits!
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Old 26th May 2020, 03:02 AM   #590
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's also official Catholic doctrine. The whole idea of "Canon Law" exists in order to prioritise the needs of the Church above the needs of the state.
Indeed.

But I'd love to know where in Canon "Law" it says that *********g children is OK, as the attitude of numerous RC high ups (looking at you Cormac Murphy-O'Connor) is that it is...
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Old 26th May 2020, 11:08 PM   #591
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Indeed.

But I'd love to know where in Canon "Law" it says that *********g children is OK, as the attitude of numerous RC high ups (looking at you Cormac Murphy-O'Connor) is that it is...
It doesn't say that. What it does say is that problems that occur within the church are addressed within the church. The upshot of which is that canon law overrides secular law when the problem is perceived to be a church problem.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:21 AM   #592
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
George Pell contempt case: charges over media that allegedly breached suppression orders will go to trial



The Guardian doesn't list the publications or journalists that are being charged.
There was a suppression order in order to stop potential jurors' from knowing that Pell had already been convicted of a criminal offence. However they would need to be asked "do you have any read any overseas newspapers?" If so they would probably know this. But as in Australia they do not normally ask potential jurors' questions at least one juror might know and then tell the others. This makes the suppression order pointless.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:50 AM   #593
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It doesn't say that. What it does say is that problems that occur within the church are addressed within the church. The upshot of which is that canon law overrides secular law when the problem is perceived to be a church problem.
It was a somewhat rhetorical question, which wasn't obvious.

These situations come over like Aleister Crowley was in charge of Canon Law - Do what thou willt shall be the Whole of The Law.

And I never understood how child rape and sexual assault could be perceived as not a criminal matter, as I recall nothing, certainly in English law, giving anyone the authority to pick and chose which laws to obey (unless your name in Dominic Cummings, obviously). FFS, our laws put a requirement on relevant professionals (like what I was) to report child abuse.

And yet religious bodies various regard themselves as being outside whichever law they choose...Not a good look.
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Old 27th May 2020, 11:11 AM   #594
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A rebuttal to the report of the Royal Commission

"Journalist Paul Bongiorno was a Catholic priest in the Ballarat diocese in the early 1970s. One of Ridsdale’s victims, BPL, told the royal commission that he had informed Bongiorno about Ridsdale. Bongiorno advised in a statement that he had no recollection of any such conversation. The royal commission found that it could not resolve the differing *accounts of PBL and Bongiorno. The latter was not called to give evidence, nor was PBL. The royal commission did not disbelieve Bongiorno." link to Op-Ed by Gerard Henderson

One of my take-aways Mr. Henderson's article is as follows: the conversations in question took place many years ago, and it is not surprising that people's memories of what was said are different. The commission did not always make a call as to whether or not someone was lying. Yet they did chose to do so with respect to Cardinal Pell.

Earlier in this article Mr. Henderson wrote, "Royal commissions make findings, not judgments. And their burden of proof is far lower than guilt beyond reasonable doubt. It’s closer to the balance of probabilities that prevails in civil cases."
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Old 27th May 2020, 11:29 AM   #595
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Oddly, I've had many conversations with abuse victims, talking about aspects of their abuse, and can certainly recall each time someone made a disclosure to me.

I worked for over 30 years in child and adolescent mental health, so it's not too surprising that this was the case, as we encountered a number of victims. Strange that folk from within the Catholic Church (and, to be fair, other churches, such as the CoE) cannot recall such things. I found it to be the kind of thing which stuck in my mind.
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:04 PM   #596
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Oddly, I've had many conversations with abuse victims, talking about aspects of their abuse, and can certainly recall each time someone made a disclosure to me.

I worked for over 30 years in child and adolescent mental health, so it's not too surprising that this was the case, as we encountered a number of victims. Strange that folk from within the Catholic Church (and, to be fair, other churches, such as the CoE) cannot recall such things. I found it to be the kind of thing which stuck in my mind.
With all due respect, what you are offering is an argument from personal incredulity. In addition, you are assuming that the disclosure happened. What if BPL's memory is faulty? Maybe he made the disclosure to someone else.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:42 PM   #597
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Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King View Post
Oddly, I've had many conversations with abuse victims, talking about aspects of their abuse, and can certainly recall each time someone made a disclosure to me.

I worked for over 30 years in child and adolescent mental health, so it's not too surprising that this was the case, as we encountered a number of victims. Strange that folk from within the Catholic Church (and, to be fair, other churches, such as the CoE) cannot recall such things. I found it to be the kind of thing which stuck in my mind.

If you were the victim of abuse I suggest you would have a vivid recollection of the event no matter how many years pass. The coming out to someone about the abuse would be most traumatic also and would also remain vivid in you memory.

Someone who had been told about it would not have the same demanding attention I suggest, and if that person is trying to protect an institution, and indeed constrained by canon law, how could you possibly give the same weight to their testimony?
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:47 PM   #598
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post

One of my take-aways Mr. Henderson's article is as follows: the conversations in question took place many years ago, and it is not surprising that people's memories of what was said are different. The commission did not always make a call as to whether or not someone was lying. Yet they did chose to do so with respect to Cardinal Pell.
Pell has destroyed his own credibility many times over with his vague indifferent answers on so many occasions, and his conflicting version of events with so many others. I wouldn't trust him to tell me what time it is.
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Old 28th May 2020, 03:44 AM   #599
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
With all due respect, what you are offering is an argument from personal incredulity. In addition, you are assuming that the disclosure happened. What if BPL's memory is faulty? Maybe he made the disclosure to someone else.
With complete lack of respect, you already posted that BPL had informed Bongiorno about Ridsdale's activities...Or did he just talk about the footy scores?

And it isn't an argument from personal incredulity: I'm pointing out what I happen to know. And it seems the that Catholic Church has coincidentally appointed huge numbers of people with memory problems all over the world, in many, many dioceses. It's amazing that so many of them managed to memorise all that Latin for those masses'n'prayers'n'order of services. Must be some class of a miracle, eh? Or is it a job description requirement?
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Old 28th May 2020, 04:26 AM   #600
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Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides View Post
With all due respect, what you are offering is an argument from personal incredulity. In addition, you are assuming that the disclosure happened. What if BPL's memory is faulty? Maybe he made the disclosure to someone else.
You are very consistent in this thread. You come up with everything possible to deny or excuse catholic clergy sexual abuse. “What if, what if, what if.....”

You quote clearly biased catholic periodicals and blogs time and time again. Apologistics 101.
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