James Webb Telescope

Samson · 28th March 2018, 01:56 AM

https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html

I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth.

wobs · 28th March 2018, 02:36 AM

Frustrating, but I'd rather it was right.

A bit like waiting for a new album by one of my favourite artists: I'd rather wait for it to be right than get a rushed release and it not as good.

Kid Eager · 28th March 2018, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html

I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth.

I think you over estimate the efficacy of marching as a solution to any of the problems described in the article.

theprestige · 28th March 2018, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html

I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth.

Thanks for that. I now realize just how unimportant JWST really is.

phunk · 28th March 2018, 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by Samson

https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html

I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth.

I think you're wrong. This isn't hubble, it won't be serviceable. It has to be perfect the first time, and if they need more time to get it right, then they should have it.

Beelzebuddy · 28th March 2018, 10:57 AM

Quote:

"Simply put, we have one shot to get this right before going into space," explained Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA's associate administrator of science.

I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy?

wobs · 12th January 2021, 06:17 AM

Is this the first time we have been in the same year as a planned launch for JWST?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_...pace_Telescope

Pixie of key · 12th January 2021, 09:44 AM

I predict that the James Webb telescope will detect galaxies formed from the center outward ��

No pulling forces are needed to explain any phenomenon. Not on a small scale, not on a large scale.

Black hole vs. Expanding black star which emit dark expanding light / pushing force

https://youtu.be/C7qXyaxK5p8

��

Gord_in_Toronto · 12th January 2021, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by Pixie of key

I predict that the James Webb telescope will detect galaxies formed from the center outward ��

No pulling forces are needed to explain any phenomenon. Not on a small scale, not on a large scale.

Black hole vs. Expanding black star which emit dark expanding light / pushing force

https://youtu.be/C7qXyaxK5p8

��

Surely that should be: Contacting white hole vs contracting white star that sucks in contracting heavy / pulling weakness?

theprestige · 12th January 2021, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy?

Yeah, shame on NASA for not magically tripling, quadrupling the money Congress budgets for them!

3point14 · 12th January 2021, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Yeah, shame on NASA for not magically tripling, quadrupling the money Congress budgets for them!

Yeah, the bastards.

I mean, it's not like they have to spend their money on anything else...

Jim_MDP · 12th January 2021, 04:16 PM

Maybe Biden can pull a "Trump" and steal the funding from Spaaaace Force!

theprestige · 12th January 2021, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy?

Giving this some more thought: I don't think we can justify it. Or if we can, it's only barely. It's definitely in the "nice to have category". If we don't send this up now, we'll send it up later. Or we'll send something else up later. Or someone else will send something up at some point.

And yes, it is possible that this will be the one that finds the cure for cancer or discovers the benevolent aliens or whatever. Maybe it'll turn out that if we'd gotten off our asses and launched seventeen of them a hundred years ago, it would have prevented the Great Depression, avoided WW2 and the Cold War, and stopped the election of Donald Trump. But I doubt it.

Cosmology isn't really something that calls for redunancy at $1bn+ per item. A large part of the justification for throwing even $10bn at it is NASA's promise that they can get it right (or at least make it work) the first time.

Too, how could you do something like the JWST without at least one prototype? Even the Apollo hardware designs went through revisions and improvements as they learned the lessons of each prototype they flew.

What'll really happen is that if/when this prototype proves itself, future researchers will consider use it as a basis for future telescopes of similar principles and design. But it doesn't really make sense to fund half a dozen all at once right now. It barely makes sense to use the one.

I hate to say it, but where investing in redundancy makes sense is in national defense. Ironically, we could probably have had redundant HSTs, as that telescope used many components and design features originally developed for reconnaissance satellites. Apparently there's a couple sets of Hubble-grade optics lying around, that could be put into orbit to replace the HST. But... NASA would rather focus on the JWST right now. And I agree with that priority.

a_unique_person · 12th January 2021, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by 3point14

Yeah, the bastards.

I mean, it's not like they have to spend their money on anything else...

Maybe if they said they want to build a space wall to keep the aliens out.

Mikemcc · 13th January 2021, 09:26 AM

The only thing taking longer is George R.R. Martin finishing off A Song of Ice and Fire!

Puppycow · 1st March 2021, 04:12 PM

Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation?

NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American)

Quote:

James Webb, a career civil servant whose time at the Department of State under Truman included advancing the development of psychological warfare as a Cold War tool, was later the NASA administrator who oversaw the Apollo program. When he arrived at NASA in 1961, his leadership role meant he was in part responsible for implementing what was by then federal policy: the purge of LGBT individuals from the workforce. When he was at State, this policy was being carried out by men who worked under Webb. As early as 1950, he was aware of this policy, and there is clear evidence to suggest that he was involved in supporting Senate discussions that ultimately kicked off what is known today as the Lavender Scare.

Quote:

As a person in a management position, Webb was ultimately responsible for the policies enacted under his leadership, including homophobic policies that were in place when he later became NASA administrator. Some argue that if Webb was complicit, so was everyone working in the administration at the time. We agree. Thankfully, NASA is not launching a telescope named after the entire administration, and individually its members would be poor choices for the honor for some of the same reasons that Webb is.

He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear.

Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have.

theprestige · 1st March 2021, 04:51 PM

They need to make a movie about the black woman that ran the State Department for him, and did all his math, and then name the telescope after her.

angrysoba · 1st March 2021, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation?

NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American)

He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear.

Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have.

On the bright side, maybe Samson might be able to get his March after all.

Belz... · 1st March 2021, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

They need to make a movie about the black woman that ran the State Department for him, and did all his math, and then name the telescope after her.

I don't know. Maybe they'll find out that she's not perfect, either.

theprestige · 1st March 2021, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Belz...

I don't know. Maybe they'll find out that she's not perfect, either.

Well, she's not gay, so...

Ziggurat · 2nd March 2021, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have.

Milkshake duck is racist.

Samson · 3rd March 2021, 03:54 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Milkshake duck is racist.

New paradigm for me, useful navigational idea.

Myriad · 3rd March 2021, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Puppycow

Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation?

NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American)

He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear.

Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have.

Y'know, I think I side with the "cancelers" on this one.

If we found out that Hubble cheated on his wife or something, I'd say there's no reason to rename the Hubble Telescope, because the name honors his contributions to the relevant science which are unaffected by his failings elsewhere. The same would apply if someone were being honored for heroic actions or even for being rich AF and donating the funding to make the eponymous project happen. The latter might be a horrible person but their checks cleared.

But for the type of well-paid administrators who are constantly getting their names on bridges and civic buildings and highways because of their influence and vanity, the only thing we can even pretend they're being honored for is the supposedly superior quality of their administrating. We must presume that few if any of the vast pool of available bureaucrats would have done as well in their stead. So if it turns out they weren't as "dedicated" and "visionary" and "innovative" and "fair-minded" as the after-dinner speeches claimed, even if that just means they were making the same political compromises as everyone else at the time, **** 'em. What did they do to deserve it in the first place?

Ziggurat · 3rd March 2021, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by Myriad

Y'know, I think I side with the "cancelers" on this one.

I'm not. The time to evaluate his merits was when the telescope was being named. Maybe they should have picked a different name. But they didn't.

Changing the name now gives in to and encourages a pathological obsession with past sins. It's not healthy. And there is no limiting principle to this drive to erase the past. No name is safe.

RecoveringYuppy · 3rd March 2021, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Changing the name now gives in to and encourages a pathological obsession with past sins. It's not healthy. And there is no limiting principle to this drive to erase the past. No name is safe.

The obsession isn't with the sins but with relegating them to the past.

I haven't looked in to each name in that article but I think I would agree that San Francisco has fallen off the slippery slope. But that doesn't mean that changing old names is not a good idea some times. My standard would be if that person stood out in their own time as being out of place on the issue.

I'm not persuaded to rename JWST based on the Sci Am op-ed. It makes it sound like Webb was just a cog in the wheel. Unless he was clearly outspoken about the policy, I can't see this.

I have to say I questioned the name when it was first applied, he appeared to be a person who was simply in the right place at the right time.

BenBurch · 3rd March 2021, 07:34 PM

Well since the name is literally written on it and it's being packed for launch means that you can rename it, but when the future encounters it, they will revert to the original name (should roman characters mean anything by then.)

Myriad · Yesterday, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by BenBurch

Well since the name is literally written on it and it's being packed for launch means that you can rename it, but when the future encounters it, they will revert to the original name (should roman characters mean anything by then.)

What, NASA doesn't have the budget for a can of spray paint?

28th March 2018, 01:56 AM	#1
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,392	James Webb Telescope https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,392

28th March 2018, 02:36 AM	#2
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,316	Frustrating, but I'd rather it was right. A bit like waiting for a new album by one of my favourite artists: I'd rather wait for it to be right than get a rushed release and it not as good.
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

28th March 2018, 02:38 AM	#3
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,819	Originally Posted by Samson https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth. I think you over estimate the efficacy of marching as a solution to any of the problems described in the article.
Kid Eager Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 6,819	__________________ What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....

28th March 2018, 08:56 AM	#5
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,127	Originally Posted by Samson https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth. I think you're wrong. This isn't hubble, it won't be serviceable. It has to be perfect the first time, and if they need more time to get it right, then they should have it.
phunk Illuminator Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4,127

28th March 2018, 10:57 AM	#6
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,070	Quote: "Simply put, we have one shot to get this right before going into space," explained Thomas Zurbuchen, NASA's associate administrator of science. I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy?
Beelzebuddy Philosopher Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 8,070

28th March 2018, 04:23 AM	#4
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,650	Originally Posted by Samson https://phys.org/news/2018-03-nasa-n...telescope.html I think we should all march if there is any further delay to the launch. Mankind depends on the results of James Webb and our escape to the stars, because American politicians cannot be relied on to do their duty as protectors of Earth. Thanks for that. I now realize just how unimportant JWST really is.

12th January 2021, 06:17 AM	#7
wobs Master Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Hull Posts: 2,316	Is this the first time we have been in the same year as a planned launch for JWST? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_...pace_Telescope
	__________________ "To vowels. They stop consonants sticking together like boiled sweets in a paper bag."

12th January 2021, 09:44 AM	#8
Pixie of key Master Poster Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 2,287	I predict that the James Webb telescope will detect galaxies formed from the center outward �� No pulling forces are needed to explain any phenomenon. Not on a small scale, not on a large scale. Black hole vs. Expanding black star which emit dark expanding light / pushing force https://youtu.be/C7qXyaxK5p8 ��
	__________________ http://www.onesimpleprinciple.com/l4 "Math without words is meaningless. Words without math can have meaning." by Maartenn100

12th January 2021, 02:04 PM	#9
Gord_in_Toronto Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 20,417	Originally Posted by Pixie of key I predict that the James Webb telescope will detect galaxies formed from the center outward �� No pulling forces are needed to explain any phenomenon. Not on a small scale, not on a large scale. Black hole vs. Expanding black star which emit dark expanding light / pushing force https://youtu.be/C7qXyaxK5p8 �� Surely that should be: Contacting white hole vs contracting white star that sucks in contracting heavy / pulling weakness?
	__________________ "Reality is what's left when you cease to believe." Philip K. Dick

12th January 2021, 02:06 PM	#10
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,650	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy? Yeah, shame on NASA for not magically tripling, quadrupling the money Congress budgets for them!

12th January 2021, 02:25 PM	#11
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,608	Originally Posted by theprestige Yeah, shame on NASA for not magically tripling, quadrupling the money Congress budgets for them! Yeah, the bastards. I mean, it's not like they have to spend their money on anything else...
3point14 Pi Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 20,608	__________________ Up the River! Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

12th January 2021, 04:16 PM	#12
Jim_MDP Philosopher Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: N.Cal/S.Or Posts: 8,021	Maybe Biden can pull a "Trump" and steal the funding from Spaaaace Force!
	__________________ ---------------------- Anything goes in the Goblin hut... anything. "Suggesting spurious explanations isn't relevant to my work." -- WTC Dust. "Both cannot be simultaneously true, and so one may conclude neither is true, and if neither is true, then Apollo is fraudulent." -- Patrick1000.

12th January 2021, 04:40 PM	#13
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,650	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy I really wish NASA would stop doing this prototype-only stuff. If we can justify designing a single sun-shaded telescope operating at a lagrange point a million kilometers from Earth, why not send three and have a bit of redundancy? Giving this some more thought: I don't think we can justify it. Or if we can, it's only barely. It's definitely in the "nice to have category". If we don't send this up now, we'll send it up later. Or we'll send something else up later. Or someone else will send something up at some point. And yes, it is possible that this will be the one that finds the cure for cancer or discovers the benevolent aliens or whatever. Maybe it'll turn out that if we'd gotten off our asses and launched seventeen of them a hundred years ago, it would have prevented the Great Depression, avoided WW2 and the Cold War, and stopped the election of Donald Trump. But I doubt it. Cosmology isn't really something that calls for redunancy at $1bn+ per item. A large part of the justification for throwing even $10bn at it is NASA's promise that they can get it right (or at least make it work) the first time. Too, how could you do something like the JWST without at least one prototype? Even the Apollo hardware designs went through revisions and improvements as they learned the lessons of each prototype they flew. What'll really happen is that if/when this prototype proves itself, future researchers will consider use it as a basis for future telescopes of similar principles and design. But it doesn't really make sense to fund half a dozen all at once right now. It barely makes sense to use the one. I hate to say it, but where investing in redundancy makes sense is in national defense. Ironically, we could probably have had redundant HSTs, as that telescope used many components and design features originally developed for reconnaissance satellites. Apparently there's a couple sets of Hubble-grade optics lying around, that could be put into orbit to replace the HST. But... NASA would rather focus on the JWST right now. And I agree with that priority.

12th January 2021, 06:47 PM	#14
a_unique_person Director of Hatcheries and Conditioning Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Waiting for the pod bay door to open. Posts: 43,043	Originally Posted by 3point14 Yeah, the bastards. I mean, it's not like they have to spend their money on anything else... Maybe if they said they want to build a space wall to keep the aliens out.
	__________________ *Continually pushing the boundaries of mediocrity.* Everything is possible, but not everything is probable. “Perception is real, but the truth is not.” - Imelda Marcos

13th January 2021, 09:26 AM	#15
Mikemcc Graduate Poster Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: UK Posts: 1,869	The only thing taking longer is George R.R. Martin finishing off A Song of Ice and Fire!

1st March 2021, 04:12 PM	#16
Puppycow Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Yokohama, Japan Posts: 25,744	Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation? NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American) Quote: James Webb, a career civil servant whose time at the Department of State under Truman included advancing the development of psychological warfare as a Cold War tool, was later the NASA administrator who oversaw the Apollo program. When he arrived at NASA in 1961, his leadership role meant he was in part responsible for implementing what was by then federal policy: the purge of LGBT individuals from the workforce. When he was at State, this policy was being carried out by men who worked under Webb. As early as 1950, he was aware of this policy, and there is clear evidence to suggest that he was involved in supporting Senate discussions that ultimately kicked off what is known today as the Lavender Scare. Quote: As a person in a management position, Webb was ultimately responsible for the policies enacted under his leadership, including homophobic policies that were in place when he later became NASA administrator. Some argue that if Webb was complicit, so was everyone working in the administration at the time. We agree. Thankfully, NASA is not launching a telescope named after the entire administration, and individually its members would be poor choices for the honor for some of the same reasons that Webb is. He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear. Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have.
	__________________ A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool. William Shakespeare

1st March 2021, 04:51 PM	#17
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,650	They need to make a movie about the black woman that ran the State Department for him, and did all his math, and then name the telescope after her.

1st March 2021, 05:36 PM	#18
angrysoba Philosophile Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 29,392	Originally Posted by Puppycow Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation? NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American) He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear. Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have. On the bright side, maybe Samson might be able to get his March after all.
	__________________ "The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before." "Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)

1st March 2021, 06:07 PM	#19
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 91,419	Originally Posted by theprestige They need to make a movie about the black woman that ran the State Department for him, and did all his math, and then name the telescope after her. I don't know. Maybe they'll find out that she's not perfect, either.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

1st March 2021, 06:41 PM	#20
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 49,650	Originally Posted by Belz... I don't know. Maybe they'll find out that she's not perfect, either. Well, she's not gay, so...

2nd March 2021, 09:27 PM	#21
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,351	Originally Posted by Puppycow Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have. Milkshake duck is racist.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd March 2021, 03:54 AM	#22
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,392	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Milkshake duck is racist. New paradigm for me, useful navigational idea.
Samson Philosopher Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 9,392

3rd March 2021, 08:12 AM	#23
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 17,484	Originally Posted by Puppycow Will James Webb be the next victim of cancellation? NASA Needs to Rename the James Webb Space Telescope (Op-Ed in Scientific American) He worked for the federal government as a civil servant at a time when the federal government (and society at large) was very much anti-gay. The "clear evidence to suggest" seems to be a 1950 memo that says he briefed a senator on the matter at the request of the senator. Exactly what he said is unclear. Personally, this sort of thing rubs me the wrong way. I'm not like a huge fan of James Webb or anything. I'm not sure that I would even recognize his name if it hadn't been attached to this space telescope. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. When I hear "James Webb" I think of a space telescope, not the person it is named after. But it's just part of a larger trend to cancel or rename things named after people who lived in a different era when most people didn't have the most modern progressive sensibilities that the wokest people in 2021 have. Y'know, I think I side with the "cancelers" on this one. If we found out that Hubble cheated on his wife or something, I'd say there's no reason to rename the Hubble Telescope, because the name honors his contributions to the relevant science which are unaffected by his failings elsewhere. The same would apply if someone were being honored for heroic actions or even for being rich AF and donating the funding to make the eponymous project happen. The latter might be a horrible person but their checks cleared. But for the type of well-paid administrators who are constantly getting their names on bridges and civic buildings and highways because of their influence and vanity, the only thing we can even pretend they're being honored for is the supposedly superior quality of their administrating. We must presume that few if any of the vast pool of available bureaucrats would have done as well in their stead. So if it turns out they weren't as "dedicated" and "visionary" and "innovative" and "fair-minded" as the after-dinner speeches claimed, even if that just means they were making the same political compromises as everyone else at the time, **** 'em. What did they do to deserve it in the first place?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...

3rd March 2021, 09:30 AM	#24
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 48,351	Originally Posted by Myriad Y'know, I think I side with the "cancelers" on this one. I'm not. The time to evaluate his merits was when the telescope was being named. Maybe they should have picked a different name. But they didn't. Changing the name now gives in to and encourages a pathological obsession with past sins. It's not healthy. And there is no limiting principle to this drive to erase the past. No name is safe.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

3rd March 2021, 10:00 AM	#25
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 10,756	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Changing the name now gives in to and encourages a pathological obsession with past sins. It's not healthy. And there is no limiting principle to this drive to erase the past. No name is safe. The obsession isn't with the sins but with relegating them to the past. I haven't looked in to each name in that article but I think I would agree that San Francisco has fallen off the slippery slope. But that doesn't mean that changing old names is not a good idea some times. My standard would be if that person stood out in their own time as being out of place on the issue. I'm not persuaded to rename JWST based on the Sci Am op-ed. It makes it sound like Webb was just a cog in the wheel. Unless he was clearly outspoken about the policy, I can't see this. I have to say I questioned the name when it was first applied, he appeared to be a person who was simply in the right place at the right time.

3rd March 2021, 07:34 PM	#26
BenBurch Gatekeeper of The Left Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: The Universe 35.2 ms ahead of this one. Posts: 37,538	Well since the name is literally written on it and it's being packed for launch means that you can rename it, but when the future encounters it, they will revert to the original name (should roman characters mean anything by then.)
	__________________ For what doth it profit a man, to fix one bug, but crash the system?

Yesterday, 09:07 AM	#27
Myriad The Clarity Is Devastating Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Betwixt Posts: 17,484	Originally Posted by BenBurch Well since the name is literally written on it and it's being packed for launch means that you can rename it, but when the future encounters it, they will revert to the original name (should roman characters mean anything by then.) What, NASA doesn't have the budget for a can of spray paint?
	__________________ A zømbie once bit my sister...