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Tags acromegaly , diabetes , sugar

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Old 30th May 2018, 05:30 AM   #121
dann
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Evolutionary Advantage of Type 2 Diabetes Obesity?


It is probably more likely that there used to be an evolutionary advantage of the appetite that now makes some of us obese:

Quote:
In our evolutionary past food insecurity was a frequent occurrence. Women would have benefited from an increased ability to store fat in easily metabolisable depots. Sex differences in fat storage, fat metabolism, and the health risks from obesity: possible evolutionary origins (Researchgate.com/British Journal of Nutrition, 2007-2008)


There's also this paper:

Evolutionary perspectives on the obesity epidemic: adaptive, maladaptive, and neutral viewpoints. (PubMed, 2013)
The author looks at three (hypothetical) explanations (mentioned in the abstract):In Similar articles, you’ll notice that there are more research papers about this theme.

So the explanation may be epigenetic, like for instance the mechanism that makes girls with eating disorders grow more body hair. In the girls, this mechanism seems to be the body's reaction to being too thin. So it doesn't seem unlikely that the body might react to food insecurity by giving (some) people exposed to this condition gluttonous appetites.
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Old 30th May 2018, 05:41 AM   #122
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Another relevant study:

Change in food cravings, food preferences, and appetite during a low-carbohydrate and low-fat diet

Quote:
Compared to the LFD, the LCD had significantly larger decreases in cravings for carbohydrates/starches and preferences for high-carbohydrate and high-sugar foods.

--------------------

The results also indicate that the LCD group was less bothered by hunger compared to the LFD group and that men had larger reductions in appetite compared to women.
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Old 30th May 2018, 10:14 AM   #123
dann
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Interesting.
Food cravings and appetite ought to be included in most dietary studies.
I've already mentioned that I don't have a problem with those, but I can imagine how awful it must feel to be both overweight and hungry. And I know that I would never have the willpower to refrain from eating when hungry that some people blame the obese for not having when they're 'indulging' ...
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 31st May 2018, 03:34 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You can go on believing in your tautology. I won't stop you.
CICO has repeatedly been shown to be true, despite people claiming otherwise. Other factors, like culture, SES, sleep, genetics, hormones, etc. might be factors for why people consume enough calories to become overweight/obese, but they don't contradict CICO. It's still the rules of the road.

Quote:
1) Your favourite slogan implies that everybody wants to be thin. That is not the case. And when you want to be fat(ter), eating more than you burn isn't "eating too much." It's eating just right!
This is quite silly. You seem to have shifted to semantics rather than CICO.

Quote:
2) And nevertheless, everybody is "eating more than you burn." I explained that 9 years ago in the thread that I linked to above, post 109. A lot of the calories you eat are not digested to the extent where they enter the bloodstream and are carried on to be burned in the cells. You excrete them undigested.
3) And that doesn't only go for calories/energy. It's the reason why sunflower seeds are not as dangerous as it was assumed at first when their contents of nickel and cadmium were discovered. Most of the sunflower seeds pass through your bowels undigested and end of being consumed by sewer rats.
I'll combine these two and throw in the microbiome and other factors that pertain to the CI side of the equation. How do these disprove CICO? You seem to be making a strawman position that CI means to ignore these factors.

Quote:
4) It's possible to get obese in spite of always eating too little to feel full. Feel free to think that the people who are getting obese this way are still eating too much. The science of nutrition has moved on since most people thought this way.
You are mixing "too little/much" between calories and satiety levels in an unhelpfully misleading way, and again focusing on semantics. Yes, whether you are eating a surplus or deficit in calories does not necessarily equate to high or low satiety levels. Again, that doesn't contradict CICO.

Quote:
5) Obesity and poverty. But who cares, right?! We all know that those poor people always overindulge ...
Now you are mixing "too much" in calorie terms with "overindulge" in monetary or moral terms. It turns out that (at least in the US and UK) low income people consume more calories, and are more obese. Again, CICO isn't disproven. Is there a dynamic at play for what they eat? Yes, but it still goes by CICO for why they are obese.

Quote:
6) As mentioned above, recreation. What used to be too much suddenly isn't if children get access to proper recreational facilities.
Now you are focusing on the CO side and acting like CICO functioning as expected somehow disproves CICO? Yes, "too much" is referring to the relation between CI and CO.

Most of these points seem to be focused on various different connotations and misreadings you can apply to the term "too much", rather than what is literally meant in terms of calorie balance.
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Last edited by Tsukasa Buddha; 31st May 2018 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 31st May 2018, 03:46 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That claim would also be absurd. However, one of the articles says that: Unreliable food supplies, rather than too much food, may lead to obesity:




The interesting thing here is that poor people don't simply 'eat too much.' The article tries to explain the mechanism that makes them eat to the point of obesity - and sometimes diabetes type 2.
The article literally says they are overeating calorie rich foods to become obese. Again, you seem to be making the phrase "eat too much" mean whatever you want it to mean rather than what CICO entails.

Quote:
In poor countries, even when food is available, it may not be sufficiently calorie-rich for people to put on much weight before the next episode of scarcity strikes. But waistbands can expand as fast as access to high calorie foods in developing countries, even if periods of food insecurity remain. Extreme obesity among Pacific islanders could be case in point – consumption of locally-produced foods is being replaced by imported fast food, sugary drinks and fatty meats, leading to both greater vulnerability to food insecurity and record rates of obesity.
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Old 31st May 2018, 11:18 PM   #126
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I'm aware of what CICO entails. What you don't seem to be aware of is what you ignore in the quotation: the "periods of food insecurity" and how they affect people's food cravings.

This also isn't true: "It turns out that (at least in the US and UK) low income people consume more calories, and are more obese. They don't necessarily consume more calories than high-income people. If that was the problem, ”parks and recreational programs” wouldn’t be the solution as mentioned above:


Originally Posted by dann View Post
6) As mentioned above, recreation. What used to be too much suddenly isn't if children get access to proper recreational facilities.

These children shouldn't eat less instead of too much. When they have access to recreational facilities they may actually have to eat more because they now exercise. The 'too much' is 'semantics': It is used to condemn victims of poverty. Mypoint is that CICO doesn't explain why or even how people become obese (and type-2 diabetics) - in spite of being mathematically correct - and it also doesn't help people slim down. So much for "semantics."
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2018, 05:25 AM   #127
dann
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Lowering Food Cravings/Appetite

Two new articles, both in Danish:

Quote:
Some people are genetically predisposed to get fat. But new research says that they can be helped with the right treatment.
(...)
Liraglutide is an artificial form of a natural appetite-diminishing hormone that is secreted from the bowels when we eat.
New discovery: People with fat gene can lose weight with the right medicine (dr.dk, May. 31, 2018)

However, considering possible adverse effects, even though they don't seem to be significant, I think that I would prefer treatment without drugs if I needed to lower my appetite:

Quote:
One hour of vigorous training increases the concentration of an appetite-lowering hormone, says new study.
New research: Vigorous training makes you less hungry (dr.dk, Feb. 21, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2018, 04:12 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm aware of what CICO entails. What you don't seem to be aware of is what you ignore in the quotation: the "periods of food insecurity" and how they affect people's food cravings.

This also isn't true: "It turns out that (at least in the US and UK) low income people consume more calories, and are more obese. They don't necessarily consume more calories than high-income people. If that was the problem, ”parks and recreational programs” wouldn’t be the solution as mentioned above:





These children shouldn't eat less instead of too much. When they have access to recreational facilities they may actually have to eat more because they now exercise. The 'too much' is 'semantics': It is used to condemn victims of poverty. Mypoint is that CICO doesn't explain why or even how people become obese (and type-2 diabetics) - in spite of being mathematically correct - and it also doesn't help people slim down. So much for "semantics."
See, it would save a lot of time if you didn't make silly claims about CICO being a tautology or playing semantic games with "too much".

You keep cherry-picking random papers, but the bulk of the data disagrees with you. Especially because obese people tend to have larger energy expenditures than normal weight people, and physical activity is a small portion of energy expenditure. Some studies found some associations for some populations, but overall the picture is much less clear.

Quote:
Although lower levels of PA have been found to correlate with obesity in some studies, urging obese children to “get off the couch” to address their excess weight is too simplistic and unlikely to result in meaningful weight losses. Furthermore, such a suggestion may undermine children’s motivation toward healthy active living. Evidence is showing that obese children and adolescents are expending as much, if not more energy, than their lean peers (5).
Linky.

Quote:
“The change in body fat cannot be explained by change in physical activity,” says Steinsbekk. "They actually got thinner because of a lower intake − they simply consumed fewer calories.”

This find is backed up by several other studies.

According to Steinsbekk, studies of children and adults show that a change in diet is more effective than increasing physical activity, although the latter is an important part of the treatment.

Physical activity is essential to our health and it appears to be especially important for maintaining a reduction in weight among adults.

Nevertheless, for reducing fat the most effective measure is to reduce intake of energy. This is probably because one has to be so extremely physically active to compensate for a large consumption of energy. If a 10-year-old eats 100-gramme bar of milk chocolate, for instance, he has to run for an hour and a half to ‘burn’ that chocolate off.
Linky.

Quote:
Among children and men, support for an association between food insecurity and weight status has been mixed. Women who experience food insecurity are more likely to be overweight or obese compared to women with adequate household resources for food; however, there is little evidence that food insecurity promotes increased weight gain over time.
Linky.

Your focus on a these possible mechanisms is also odd given that obesity has been increasing for every income level, age, gender, and race for the past decades. They also fail to sufficiently explain why people are overeating, or why they are increasingly doing so, unless you want to claim that food insecurity has been increasing dramatically that past few decades.

Lastly, even if they were 100% true, it does not follow that advising to diet according to CICO would be unhelpful, especially since you aren't proposing any solutions that are within an individual's control. Consuming fewer calories is within an individual's control, regardless of environmental situation. As mentioned before, "too much" is in terms of calories, not satiety. Many low income people consume large amounts of non-sating calories, such as sodas, which does not fit with your model of hunger due to insecurity.
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Old 1st June 2018, 07:24 PM   #129
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dann, your points all seem to question *why* obese people are eating too much, rather than *if* they are. Honestly, I'm just too lazy to go through things point by point. Been there, done that, just like I'm too lazy to argue with creationists.

There's no doubt about *if* obese people are consuming too many calories, otherwise they wouldn't be obese.

The *why* is deeply complex. The ubiquity of cheap food requiring no prep, the modern snack food and drink industry, the effects of appetite and satiety (plus being able to recognize it) etc...
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Old 1st June 2018, 10:35 PM   #130
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That is why you get it wrong and conclude that obese people eat too much because there's lots of cheap food so they just eat and eat. You may argue - and that is what you always see people doing - that they would not have been obese if there was no food, but that does not explain why affluence affects poor people much more than the rich in this respect.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2018, 10:54 PM   #131
dann
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
See, it would save a lot of time if you didn't make silly claims about CICO being a tautology or playing semantic games with "too much".

You keep cherry-picking random papers, but the bulk of the data disagrees with you. Especially because obese people tend to have larger energy expenditures than normal weight people, and physical activity is a small portion of energy expenditure. Some studies found some associations for some populations, but overall the picture is much less clear.
Quote:
Although lower levels of PA have been found to correlate with obesity in some studies, urging obese children to “get off the couch” to address their excess weight is too simplistic and unlikely to result in meaningful weight losses. Furthermore, such a suggestion may undermine children’s motivation toward healthy active living. Evidence is showing that obese children and adolescents are expending as much, if not more energy, than their lean peers (5).
Linky.

You are the cherry-picker, and so are some of your sources, apparently.
If you notice the "(5)" in your quotation, it refers to the study Widespread misconceptions about obesity, which makes for very interesting reading:

Quote:
Obese boys average fewer steps (10 256 steps per day) than their normal-weight counterparts (12 584 steps per day), but they have a larger body to carry. Translating this physical activity level into calories expended (kcal per day) would likely show that obese boys actually burn more calories on a daily basis.

It only says "would likely show." And it doesn't exactly support your CICO idea:

Quote:
Simplistic notions based on “energy in and energy out” have proven largely ineffective both when dealing with individuals and with populations. This might be owing to the fact that current interventions do not take into account the complex biopsychological responses to defend body weight or the notion that only overconsumption of food and physical inactivity are the root causes of obesity.

And its conclusion about PA is that
Quote:
Rather than focusing on burning calories, interventions should aim at reducing sedentary activities and increasing physical activities to improve overall health and general well-being.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 1st June 2018, 11:42 PM   #132
dann
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Quote:
Among children and men, support for an association between food insecurity and weight status has been mixed. Women who experience food insecurity are more likely to be overweight or obese compared to women with adequate household resources for food; however, there is little evidence that food insecurity promotes increased weight gain over time.
Linky.

You are cherry-picking again, Tuskasa Buddha. Why do you ignore the conclusion of that study? When your quotation says that "there is little evidence", you seem to be in denial of what actual researchers do in that situation: They go look for evidence!!! From your own link:

Quote:
Additional research addressing the limitations of current studies is needed to fully understand the observed linkages between food insecurity and risk for obesity. Nevertheless, there is substantial evidence these nutritional problems coexist, and it is critical that future efforts to eliminate hunger consider opportunities to promote healthy food choices and physical activity. Evaluations of policy changes and other intervention strategies are needed to determine the potential for food and nutrition assistance programs to more effectively reduce obesity among participants.
Get the idea?!

Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Your focus on a these possible mechanisms is also odd given that obesity has been increasing for every income level, age, gender, and race for the past decades. They also fail to sufficiently explain why people are overeating, or why they are increasingly doing so, unless you want to claim that food insecurity has been increasing dramatically that past few decades.

No, probably not dramatically, but it is there (Wikipedia, and also Worldhunger.org), and an awful lot of children grow up in poverty (CNN). As almost all the articles about food insecurity point out, food insecurity in times of scarcity doesn't make you fat. There is no food to get fat from! But when food insecurity is followed by times of abundance, the pattern may have been established. And food scarcity exists even in times of food abundance, but you would probably describe it as an individual problem only ...


Quote:
Lastly, even if they were 100% true, it does not follow that advising to diet according to CICO would be unhelpful, especially since you aren't proposing any solutions that are within an individual's control.

Of course I am! Unlike you, I'm looking at all possibilities, even the medicinal ones (in spite of not being a big fan of those solutions): http://www.internationalskeptics.com...0#post12312090

Quote:
Consuming fewer calories is within an individual's control, regardless of environmental situation.

It doesn't come as a surprise at all that you belong to the willpower crowd. But, no, it's not really "within an individual's control", and ignoring people's environmental situations is a very luxurious attitude to the problems of food scarcity, poverty, obesity and diabetes type 2.

Quote:
As mentioned before, "too much" is in terms of calories, not satiety. Many low income people consume large amounts of non-sating calories, such as sodas, which does not fit with your model of hunger due to insecurity.

Yes, it does! And you would have known if your reading of the articles about this theme was a little less biased. That sodas are substandard nutrition appears to be the one thing we can agree on. But they are available, and I don't know about your country, but in mine they are much, much cheaper than milk.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2018, 12:21 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
Quote:
“The change in body fat cannot be explained by change in physical activity,” says Steinsbekk. "They actually got thinner because of a lower intake − they simply consumed fewer calories.”

This find is backed up by several other studies.

According to Steinsbekk, studies of children and adults show that a change in diet is more effective than increasing physical activity, although the latter is an important part of the treatment.

Physical activity is essential to our health and it appears to be especially important for maintaining a reduction in weight among adults.

Nevertheless, for reducing fat the most effective measure is to reduce intake of energy. This is probably because one has to be so extremely physically active to compensate for a large consumption of energy. If a 10-year-old eats 100-gramme bar of milk chocolate, for instance, he has to run for an hour and a half to ‘burn’ that chocolate off.
Linky.

"they simply consumed fewer calories."

Interesting, but also old (2012) if you consider the progress made by the science of nutrition since then. Nobody (but you) would look only at CICO nowadays. They would consider the kinds of food fed to children because they now know how they affect not only the overall health of children but also weight loss.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2018, 03:08 AM   #134
dann
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Sorry, I made a mistake above:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, probably not dramatically, but it is there (Wikipedia, and also Worldhunger.org), and an awful lot of children grow up in poverty (CNN).

13 million food-insecure households in the USA! That is more than 10%. In my opinion, that actually is dramatic!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 2nd June 2018, 05:44 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Two new articles, both in Danish:




However, considering possible adverse effects, even though they don't seem to be significant, I think that I would prefer treatment without drugs if I needed to lower my appetite:
Drat,. Victoza in America, it works by increasing insulin production rather than reducing insulin resistance.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 06:07 PM   #136
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I've often wondered whether our cells need to send some kind of message that would lead to relieving the insulin resistance. Something like a ketone from fat burning. It would say "we are out of sugar, we are burning fat. Open the insulin receptors, insulin so we can burn up more sugar". And that is why the ketogenic Atkins diet works. Maybe.

Alcohol also lowers sugar*, it's why they tell diabetics not to drink. Alcohol breaks down into a ketone...

I still may try a drink mixed with acetone instead of alcohol. But it sounds like instant hang over.

*The docs tell me to diet to lower sugar. Exercise to lower sugar. Take pills to lower sugar. Take shots to lower sugar. but DO NOT TAKE ALCOHOL. Because it lowers sugar. Morons. But their big concern is that if I go low, and feint, people will think I am drunk rather than low. Seems like a social concern, more than medical. Anyhow, I have a glass of wine with dinner. Big glass, but exactly the ONE. WITH the meal. Test strips have shown it to drop my sugar about 25 points.
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Old 2nd June 2018, 06:16 PM   #137
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Have you tried just lowering your sugar to lower sugar?
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Old 3rd June 2018, 06:25 AM   #138
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I'll drink to that!
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Old 3rd June 2018, 08:30 AM   #139
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Skål!

Small amounts of alcohol help clean the brain (University of Copenhagen, Feb. 2, 2018)
Beneficial effects of low alcohol exposure, but adverse effects of high alcohol intake on glymphatic function (Nature, Feb. 2, 2018)
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Old 4th June 2018, 06:11 PM   #140
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White wines go better with white meat, soooo,....
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Old 10th June 2018, 03:12 AM   #141
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Brand new study:
Plasma metabolites and lipids predict insulin sensitivity improvement in obese, nondiabetic individuals after a 2-phase dietary intervention
(The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Jun. 6, 2018)
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th June 2018, 09:53 AM   #142
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Back to the OP:

It's not just "thrifty genes" and the fat storage.

In times of plenty, much appetite and eating, insulin resistance kicks in. So the boby's feedback system raises insulin levels in order to maintain healthy glucose level. Continue with times of plenty, more resistance, higher insulin levels yet. The body can maintain the healthy glucose level until the extreme limit of insulin output is reached. It is only at that time that "diabetes" happens.

But in the mean time, that outrageous high quantity of insulin acts like "Insulin like growth factor", IGF. (Who would have thunk that insulin would act like an insulin like compound? Duh.) IGF is what body builders take, it is their "roid". Greatly excessive mounts cause giantism or Actromegaly. Moderate amounts cause soft tissue growth- bigger bones, stronger muscles and tendons. Bigger stronger people make for better hunter-gatherers in times of plenty. And there is a good theory of the positive evolutionary effect of T2DM. And why it hasn't died out.


I have so many symptoms I actually talked the docs into doing a brain scan, looking for the tumor that might be the cause of my "acromegaly". While awaiting the results, hmmm, I wondered, if I don't have Acro, I wonder if there is such a thing as "Pseudo Acromegaly"...

Skin tags, colon polyps, heart murmur, trigger finger, carpal tunnel, ruptured discs, hypertension, cardiomyopathy, scalloped vertebra, sleep apnea, tennis elbow, bone spurs, spinal stenosis, enlarged liver, .... to 43 items related to IGF. What I got from doctors was repeatedly "we see a lot of that among diabetics". And a bunch of those symptoms had started a decade before Diabetes actually became diagnosable. And before I became obese. It's not the glucose level or the obesity, it's the steroid that is detrimental to health.

Which accounts for the fact that some studies do show that obesity is not bad for health- unless you are also diabetic. Typically, Lard Ass is OK, the diabetic Beer Belly is not.

Obesity and diabetes are symptoms, the disease is Insulin Resistance.
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Old 14th June 2018, 12:11 PM   #143
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Very good (and l-o-n-g) article:

On the one hand,

Quote:
The energy equation—that calories consumed=calories expended +/- calories stored (as body fat or glycogen)—is always true. Obesity develops if absorbed dietary energy (calories) from foods exceeds energy expenditure for a considerable period (box 1).

That corresponds to what Tsukasa Buddha called CICO in post 124.

On the other hand,

Quote:
The “victim blaming” view that individuals are responsible for their afflictions has been persistent and destructive. Although some people at risk can resist obesity through vigilance, external factors are hard to overcome. Evidence indicates a recent environmentally led global epidemic, mediated by obesogenic factors such as frequent eating out, large portion sizes, and the commercial normalisation of routinely consuming high sugar, high fat snacks and sweetened drinks between meals.
Making progress on the global crisis of obesity and weight management (British Medical Journal, Jun. 13, 2018)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th June 2018, 05:36 PM   #144
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Interesting link in the other thread about statins:http://www.internationalskeptics.com...=329614&page=2

Quote:
https://www.pharmaceutical-journal.c...irstPass=false However, there are four separate lines of reasoning that question this thesis. Firstly, while obesity prevalence and diabetes prevalence correlate, they are not concordant[17]. There are countries with populations who are obese without being diabetic (such as Iceland, Mongolia, and Micronesia), and there are countries with populations who are diabetic without being obese, such as India, Pakistan, and China (they manifest a diabetes prevalence of 11%; the United States, one of the world’s most obese country, has a 9.3% diabetes prevalence).
Seems the diabetes/insulin resistance is not neccessarily linked to obesity. The talk of obese Mongolians and Islanders who do NOT get diabetes, and also slim Indians and other Asians who do. Genes trump will power. Nature triumphs over nurture- this time.
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Old 14th June 2018, 07:25 PM   #145
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The rise of obesity and type 2 diabetes in the US has been concurrent with the increased consumption of sugar and other refined carbohydrates.
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Old 14th June 2018, 09:56 PM   #146
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https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4911377/

"Genetics of Insulin Resistance and the Metabolic Syndrome"
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Old 18th June 2018, 11:16 AM   #147
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Very long (but also very comprehensive) article in British Medical Journal: Making progress on the global crisis of obesity and weight management (BMJ, Jun. 13, 2018)

See for instance: "Box 2: Failures of willpower centric view"
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 18th June 2018, 01:17 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Very long (but also very comprehensive) article in British Medical Journal: Making progress on the global crisis of obesity and weight management (BMJ, Jun. 13, 2018)

See for instance: "Box 2: Failures of willpower centric view"
But that obesity centric view of poor health is wrong. Without insulin resistance, there are few detriments to obesity.
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Old 18th June 2018, 01:55 PM   #149
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Here is an article about the genes involved in Insulin Resistance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4911377/

Table 1
Variants associated with insulin resistance identified by candidate gene association studies, linkage analysis and GWAS
SNP Nearby gene Chromosome Ref
rs13081389 PPARG 3 [27, 28]
rs972283 KLF14 7 [29]
rs2943641 IRS1 2 [31]
rs780094 GCKR 2 [17]
rs8050136 FTO 16 [29, 36, 76]
rs7903146 TCF7L2 10 [37, 38]
rs1208 NAT2 8 [13]
rs6723108,
rs998451 TMEM163 2 [43]
rs35767 IGF1 12 [17]
rs12970134 MC4R 18 [46, 77]
rs17046216 SC4MOL 4 [48]
rs7077836 TCERG1L 10 [48]
rs702634
rs4311394 ARL15 12 [49, 78]

Gene snips are the rs___ number of several digits, followed by gene initials.

I compared this list to my 23&Me data. I have the pathenogenic variant for 4 of those genes. For one, I am homozygous- bad variant from both parents. That is the IRS-1 gene. Which is the Insulin Receptor Substrate gene. Not good for insulin resistance. But also, that substrate is used for other receptors. One of which is the growth hormone recpetor that triggers production of Insulin-like Growth Factor, IGF-1. My IGF level is 2 sd low, IIRC 4th percentile level.

And the two receptors are inter-meshed, and the two substrates (Insulin and IGF) are inter-meshed, such that injected IGF lowers blood sugars. Wah-la, a direct treatment for Insulin Resistance.

Bonafide medical use of IGF-1 is for treatment of "Laron Syndrome", a lack of growth/dwarfism. If you google images, you will see a familiar Little Person look. But unless at 6'3" I am the worlds largest midget, I don't have that problem. Also mentioned as an effect of low IGF, higher mentality. But as I mentioned numerous times in various threads, excess insulin acts like IGF-1. Possibly related to the other IR genes I have? IIRC, victims of Laron Syndrome are known for NOT getting diabetes OR cancer. Hmm, back to the OP, them other IR genes I have are protecting my progeny from being dwarfs.

Hmmn, maybe I should do what eh body builders do- buy some IGF-1/LR off the net, mix it with acetic acid and water, inject with an insulin needle, and wah-la, cure my diabetes, heal my aching muscles (need IGF to heal), lower my IQ, and catch cancer too!

My HMO diabetes NP splits her time with the genetics dept. Next appt is a few weeks away.
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Old 19th June 2018, 05:19 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But that obesity centric view of poor health is wrong. Without insulin resistance, there are few detriments to obesity.
Right...
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Old 20th June 2018, 12:49 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The rise of obesity and type 2 diabetes in the US has been concurrent with the increased consumption of sugar and other refined carbohydrates.
But that trend has been reversed for a while now, obesity continued rising.
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Old 20th June 2018, 01:17 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Very good (and l-o-n-g) article:

On the one hand,




That corresponds to what Tsukasa Buddha called CICO in post 124.

On the other hand,
Right. If we look at a population level, I don't think japan and South Korea are filled with fastidious calorie counting monks and that the US and Australia are filled with degenerates. Or that there has been a decline in moral fibre over the past 100 years. That's silly. Even on an individual level, I think "willpower" is a dubious concept for understanding human behavior.

But I maintain to accurately understand the obesogenic environment, you have to understand CICO, and any explanation that contradicts CICO is probably barking up the wrong tree.

I also believe that through behavior we can change our personal environment, which can influence our behavior. It is not a one-way street (it's a dialectic ), and we are not passive "victims" of our environments. I don't believe this is the same as "willpower".
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Old 20th June 2018, 01:19 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Right...

Who would have guessed that rustypouch believed in the now obsolete willpower idea and the fat-shaming that went along with it, both of which nutritional science has proven wrong at long last ...

Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
too much food

Yeah, right!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th June 2018, 01:32 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Tsukasa Buddha View Post
It is not a one-way street (it's a dialectic ), and we are not passive "victims" of our environments. I don't believe this is the same as "willpower".

No, if socio-economic circumstances make us eat fastfood and drink sodas, we are active victims of our environments, but victims nonetheless. From the BMJ article I linked to in post 147:

Quote:
- There is insufficient investment in effective treatments for obesity, thus numerous profitable non-evidence-based approaches are promoted, with inflated claims to meet popular desire for easier weight control
- Intense media coverage of commercial “treatments” that are not evidence based or are minimally effective contribute to mass confusion and undermine professional advice
- The view that food companies are not responsible for the obesity epidemic leaves them free to create and promote an increasing variety of tempting obesogenic products
- Less obesogenic food products tend to be more expensive per calorie, which is a barrier to population shifts towards healthier eating habits
- Willpower centricity leads to an underdevelopment of population directed measures that avoid individual accountability
- Government funding for obesity treatment is less than for other diseases relative to numbers of resulting disability or deaths
Failures of willpower centric view
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th June 2018, 01:37 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
But that obesity centric view of poor health is wrong. Without insulin resistance, there are few detriments to obesity.
I question this. I am not certain of research specifically looking at risks with respect to insulin resistance, but many have been done on the idea of obesity without metabolic syndrome (some include insulin resistance in their definition of it, otherwise it is just closely related).

Quote:
The prevalence of obesity has increased worldwide over the past 30 years, making it a major public health concern [1]. Obesity is associated with a reduced life expectancy, largely because obese individuals are at an increased risk of type 2 diabetes, cardiovascular disease (CVD), and several types of cancer [2]. However, not all obese subjects are at a higher risk of mortality, which suggests that there is a subset of healthy obese individuals, i.e., those exhibiting so-called “metabolically healthy obesity” (MHO) [3-6]. MHO is characterized by the absence of metabolic abnormalities such as dyslipidemia, insulin resistance, hypertension, and an unfavorable inflammatory profile [3-6]. In addition, a subgroup of normal-weight individuals with abnormal metabolic parameters (those exhibiting metabolically unhealthy non-obesity [MUNO] or metabolically obese normal weight [MONW]) has also been suggested [7]. Thus, a range of metabolically healthy and unhealthy obese and non-obese phenotypes exists, which has been recognized since the 1980s (Fig. 1) [5].
Linky.

Even if we limited things to the conditions most effected by insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome, like Type II Diabetes and CVD, MHO are still higher risk. Add to that the fact that a large proportion of metabolically healthy obese people become metabolically unhealthy, and it is difficult to say if MHO is benign.
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Old 20th June 2018, 02:04 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, if socio-economic circumstances make us eat fastfood and drink sodas, we are active victims of our environments, but victims nonetheless. From the BMJ article I linked to in post 147:
See, this is the determinism I object to. I don't want to turn this into "if I could pull myself up by my bootstraps", but for illustration purposes:

I stopped eating fast food and drinking sodas without changing my socioeconomic circumstances. How can that be is socioeconomic circumstances "make" us do things and we are victims of it?

Why did I eat fast food previously? Because I didn't pack a lunch to work. Why did I stop eating fast food? Because I started making sandwiches and bringing a water bottle. It was actually less expensive and less time consuming than getting fast food. Because I wasn't drinking a third of my calories, I could eat more satiating food.

People, even low SES people, can change their material conditions which can change their behavior, so they don't have to rely on willpower.

I'm not saying there aren't population level factors in many communities in the US and elsewhere, or that people are moral failures, or that food companies bear no blame, or anything else. I don't think these views are contradictory.
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Old 20th June 2018, 03:25 AM   #157
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A very obvious example of anecdotal evidence: I did it so population averages don't really count!
By the way, this is how the American Dream is maintained generation after generation: Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos became billionaires, so being born poor (which they never were, of course) is no obstacle to a making it big in the US of A!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 20th June 2018, 03:38 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
A very obvious example of anecdotal evidence: I did it so population averages don't really count!
TB specifically discusses the implications of those population level statistics, and I don't think there's any disagreement about them.

The anecdote you refer to is a counter-example to the deterministic view you present, and one counter example is all that's necessary to show that a claim is wrong. But I doubt your objection is that you don't think the counter example is true. Rather you probably object that it's an outlier.

I think TB would agree with you about that. Yet the fact that such actions are possible, even if uncommon, is meaningful. The question as to why they are uncommon is also meaningful, probably even moreso.

And as TB points out, the answer to that last question is probably more related to socio-economic factors than an imagined decline in willpower, how ever we might even go about measuring such a thing*.

Quote:
By the way, this is how the American Dream is maintained generation after generation: Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos became billionaires, so being born poor (which they never were, of course) is no obstacle to a making it big in the US of A!
Being born poor is obviously an obstacle. There is certainly a correlation between parent's wealth and their children's wealth at, say, age 50.

*Not that I think doing so would be impossible, but it's certainly not likely to be a simple undertaking.
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Old 20th June 2018, 05:37 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
,,,,,, The question as to why they are uncommon is also meaningful, probably even moreso.
because genes.

We don't ALL have the insulin resistance gene variants. And it is multi-genic. I think I linked upthread to a list of 14 SNPs. I have 5 pathogenic variants. Each is pretty common, found in from 5% to 40% of the population. Now let's try some math- 40% x 25% x 20% x 10% x 5% = .00015%. That makes my combination nearly unique at 1 1/2 per 10,000. We are each a rare combination of common gene varaiants. Your combination is rare too.

So sure, your genetic combination allowed you to easily lose that extra 10 pounds. My genes, not so easy. And complicated by the muscle pain that cuts down on the likely hood of heavy exercise- did I mention that the growth factor needed to heal achy muscles is related to insulin resistance?

It's a positive feedback loop. Hard to break it. Hard to prevent it from recurring. Not impossible, but very difficult.
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Old 20th June 2018, 06:07 AM   #160
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And also, fat floats. We are harder to be drowned.

Which brings up the thought that since I used to sink like a rock, my lean mass was very high. Which means I suffered from insulin resistance before I was obese.
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