IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags acromegaly , diabetes , sugar

Reply
Old 20th November 2018, 09:24 AM   #201
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,194
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
My cursory googling didn't turn it up either. Except that membranes use a glyco-(somhtiung or other, protein?) which may require the fructose. If so, we can get it by breaking down some starches to get the fructose they hold. (but I just wanted to park this here for now, too tired to dig some more) (eta": blood glucose is 209, I'll take my dinner insulin shot, might perk me up)
type 1 here, what scale is that?
my blood testing kit gives results between 6 and 8 for normal levels and below 4 for a hypo?
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 12:58 PM   #202
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
TFor those who hear about ' high fat ' diets, and perhaps dismiss it without looking too closely; the fats that are advocated in a high fat way of eating are generally those that were available before the industrial age.

It particularly doesn't include foods deep fried in oil, and refined vegetable oils.

If by refined vegetable oils you mean trans fats, then yes, definitely. They should be avoided. They're almost as bad as smoking: Trans fat: Public response and regulation: Denmark (Wikipedia)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 02:02 PM   #203
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
type 1 here, what scale is that?
my blood testing kit gives results between 6 and 8 for normal levels and below 4 for a hypo?
USA uses mg/dl rather than the international std of um Micro Moles?

The more I look inti it, the more I'm convince that sugar levels of T2DM is not of much concern. The culprit is the Insulin Resistance, causing high insulin levels, which then act as growth factor. Artylining grow, causing narrowing. Tendons grow, pinching nerves (Carpal Tunnel). Or the tendons cause Trigger Finger, etc etc etc. PLus something screws up calcoim metabolism, so bine spurs and 'lucent lesions' of calcium deficiency within bones. I'm screwed up.

See <UKPDS study> which showed that the tightest possible control of glucose levels didn't prevent any end points. Then the follow up, UKPDS 2, showed the tight group only had lower Diabetic Retinopathy.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 02:08 PM   #204
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
The highlights are worth mentioning:


Insulin sensitivity is maintained in both men and mice with high PUFA or SFA intake


Hepatic glucose production and de novo lipogenesis are decreased with high fat intake


High fat intake decreases fasting insulin and triacylglycerol levels


High fat intake changes the plasma proteome in an immune-supporting direction



For those who hear about ' high fat ' diets, and perhaps dismiss it without looking too closely; the fats that
are advocated in a high fat way of eating, are generally those that were available before the industrial age.

It particularly doesn't include foods deep fried in oil, and refined vegetable oils.
I bet my life that the only harmful fats/oils are the trans fats in Hydrogenated Veggie Oils. HVO got lumped in with Sat Fats for the Framingham study. It never was the sat fats, it was the up to 45% Trans in the HVO. It's still made that way for commercial use- the frosting that the do-nut shop gets in the five gallon bucket, the factory made cup cakes, notice how the frosting doesn't melt?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 02:11 PM   #205
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
Originally Posted by dann View Post
If by refined vegetable oils you mean trans fats, then yes, definitely. They should be avoided. They're almost as bad as smoking: Trans fat: Public response and regulation: Denmark (Wikipedia)
By 'refined', I mean just about anything that is not cold pressed, i.e., heating and solvent extraction.

Various seed oils such as , corn. sunflower, safflower, soybean, peanut, canola ( rapeseed). and etc.


Example:

Safflower oil: An industrial ingredient — Prior to the 1960s, safflower oil was used primarily in manufacturing paints, varnishes and other surface coatings.


I have no problem with most animal fats that are classified as ' trans '..

All in moderation, of course.
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "

Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 20th November 2018 at 02:14 PM.
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 04:15 PM   #206
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post

I have no problem with most animal fats that are classified as ' trans '..

......
You may have the wrong definition of "trans fat". It is not interchangeable with "saturated fats". Animal fats have very little Trans, naturally, like 1/2%. But when they hydrogenate veggie oil it can have up to 45%. Even today's warning labels that say "Zero grams trans fats" can have less than 1/2 gram per serving, which may be 5% of a 10g serving.

Look up "The oiling of America" by Mary Enig for the history of veggie oils.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 04:27 PM   #207
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,194
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
USA uses mg/dl rather than the international std of um Micro Moles?
Ah thanks for that.

Originally Posted by casebro View Post
The more I look inti it, the more I'm convince that sugar levels of T2DM is not of much concern. The culprit is the Insulin Resistance, causing high insulin levels, which then act as growth factor. Artylining grow, causing narrowing. Tendons grow, pinching nerves (Carpal Tunnel). Or the tendons cause Trigger Finger, etc etc etc. PLus something screws up calcoim metabolism, so bine spurs and 'lucent lesions' of calcium deficiency within bones. I'm screwed up.

See <UKPDS study> which showed that the tightest possible control of glucose levels didn't prevent any end points. Then the follow up, UKPDS 2, showed the tight group only had lower Diabetic Retinopathy.
re: the highlighted, it never occurred to me that insulin resistance would cause more insulin being produced, interesting.
Like I said, I'm type 1 so am coming from a point of view of no insulin being produced at all.

Last edited by p0lka; 20th November 2018 at 04:32 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 05:38 PM   #208
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Ah thanks for that.


re: the highlighted, it never occurred to me that insulin resistance would cause more insulin being produced, interesting.
Like I said, I'm type 1 so am coming from a point of view of no insulin being produced at all.
Yeah, you take 30-50 units per day. With my insulin resistance I need 135, down from a high of 220.

But be warned- the insulin resistance gene is quite common. you may have it too. It is not unusual for T1s to need more as they age.

Gene involved is IRS-1, "insulin receptor substrate#1". The substrate is also used to make Growth Hormone Receptor. So I don't trigger the production of IGF-1, "Insulin like growth factor #1". But loads of insulin works like Insulin Like GF. Otherwise I would have gobs of insulin on top of normal IGF level, I would be Andre the Giant. My IGF 'Z score' is -2.2 sd, 7th percentile. Which gives me "Pseudo Acromegaly".
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th November 2018, 07:27 PM   #209
p0lka
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: near trees, houses and a lake.
Posts: 2,194
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
Yeah, you take 30-50 units per day. With my insulin resistance I need 135, down from a high of 220.

But be warned- the insulin resistance gene is quite common. you may have it too. It is not unusual for T1s to need more as they age.

Gene involved is IRS-1, "insulin receptor substrate#1". The substrate is also used to make Growth Hormone Receptor. So I don't trigger the production of IGF-1, "Insulin like growth factor #1". But loads of insulin works like Insulin Like GF. Otherwise I would have gobs of insulin on top of normal IGF level, I would be Andre the Giant. My IGF 'Z score' is -2.2 sd, 7th percentile. Which gives me "Pseudo Acromegaly".
Again, I'm lost with the US conversions, doh.
I take 1 unit of humalog fast acting insulin for about every 10 grams of carbs I eat (plus levimir background insulin), so over a day it would be about 10-12 units ignoring the levimir.

I'm not a particularly tall or wide person though, so maybe I just don't eat that much.
EDIT: actually, including the levimir which is 10 units every 12 hrs that would put me on 32 units every day, I was only counting the insulin that dealt with my meals so yeah ignore me haha.

Last edited by p0lka; 20th November 2018 at 07:46 PM.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2018, 02:47 AM   #210
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I bet my life that the only harmful fats/oils are the trans fats in Hydrogenated Veggie Oils. HVO got lumped in with Sat Fats for the Framingham study. It never was the sat fats, it was the up to 45% Trans in the HVO. It's still made that way for commercial use- the frosting that the do-nut shop gets in the five gallon bucket, the factory made cup cakes, notice how the frosting doesn't melt?

When frosting doesn't melt, it may just be because of the sugar.


About trans fats in the USA:

Quote:
On 7 November 2013, the FDA issued a preliminary determination that trans fats are not "generally recognized as safe", which was widely seen as a precursor to reclassifying trans fats as a "food additive," meaning they could not be used in foods without specific regulatory authorization. This would have the effect of virtually eliminating trans fats from the US food supply. The ruling was formally enacted on 16 June 2015, requiring that within three years, all food prepared in the United States must not include trans fats, unless approved by the FDA.
The FDA agreed in May 2018 to give companies one more year to find another ingredient for enhancing product flavors or grease industrial baking pans. Also, while new products can no longer be made with trans fats, they will give foods already on the shelves some time to cycle out of the market.
Trans fats: Public response and regulation: United States (Wikipedia)

Business considerations seem to be much more important than people's cardio-vascular systems ...
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 21st November 2018 at 02:51 AM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2018, 08:26 AM   #211
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
You may have the wrong definition of "trans fat"..
I can understand that my wording may have suggested a misunderstanding.

I meant to say " I have no problem with the amount of trans fat found in animal products. "
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2018, 08:46 AM   #212
RecoveringYuppy
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 10,681
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I can understand that my wording may have suggested a misunderstanding.

I meant to say " I have no problem with the amount of trans fat found in animal products. "

You mean because there isn't any, or virtually none?
RecoveringYuppy is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st November 2018, 10:33 AM   #213
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by RecoveringYuppy View Post
You mean because there isn't any, or virtually none?
I would answer "yes".

I do all my cooking with beef shortening or butter.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th July 2019, 11:45 PM   #214
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I bet my life that the only harmful fats/oils are the trans fats in Hydrogenated Veggie Oils. HVO got lumped in with Sat Fats for the Framingham study. It never was the sat fats, it was the up to 45% Trans in the HVO.

New article in British Medical Journal:

Quote:
But while consensus exists on the health benefits of eliminating industrially produced trans fatty acids, the evidence linking saturated fat to cardiovascular disease and death is less clear, they say.
Experts question WHO advice to reduce saturated fat to curb chronic disease (BMJ, July 3, 2019)

You might be interested in this one, too:

Quote:
intake of milk and dairy products was associated with a neutral or reduced risk of type 2 diabetes and a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease, particularly stroke.
Milk and dairy products: good or bad for human health? An assessment of the totality of scientific evidence. (PubMed, Nov. 22, 2016)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 09:46 AM   #215
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Two more in the same discussion of WHO's advice:

Expert reaction to opinion piece questioning WHO draft guidance on saturated fat (Science Media Centre, July 3, 2019)

Ditching saturated fats may 'do more harm than good' (Daily Heralds, July 4, 2019)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 11:08 AM   #216
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
On a related note , what's normal in contemporary medical science?


Blood tests: There are BIG differences between “normal” and ideal

Quote:
Sometimes, “normal” is regarded as the level of a lab value that suggests that prescription medications are not yet necessary.
( I understand that William Davis will get flagged for some ' woo ' ideas, but he has some worthwhile insight in to the problems with today's standard of medical care, which focuses on throwing drugs at symptoms, rather than addressing the cause. )
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 03:50 PM   #217
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
On a related note , what's normal in contemporary medical science?


Blood tests: There are BIG differences between “normal” and ideal



( I understand that William Davis will get flagged for some ' woo ' ideas, but he has some worthwhile insight in to the problems with today's standard of medical care, which focuses on throwing drugs at symptoms, rather than addressing the cause. )
Some tests I've taken grade on the curve- the top 5% is abnormal. Lead is that way, and some hormones.My IGF-1 has a Z score of -2. But since I'm at 7th percentile, not <5, , I'm "normal" Whaaa? No efficacy study ever down?
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 5th July 2019, 05:34 PM   #218
EHocking
Philosopher
 
EHocking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 8,523
Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
And not only that, some of the risk factors for Type 2 diabetes (obesity, lack of exercise, smoking) were probably not problems that our ancestors had to deal with.
I haven’t checked the thread to see if there were any responses to this but, while the disease was not known nor understood at the time, the symptoms of diabetes were recognised as far back as 1,550 BC.
__________________
"A closed mouth gathers no feet"
"Ignorance is a renewable resource" P.J.O'Rourke
"It's all god's handiwork, there's little quality control applied", Fox26 reporter on Texas granite
You can't make up anything anymore. The world itself is a satire. All you're doing is recording it. Art Buchwald
EHocking is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 09:27 AM   #219
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
Type 2 used to be known as " adult onset diabetes "... Can't call it that any more, now that so many children have it..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 6th July 2019, 11:23 AM   #220
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
New study about increased protein intake and diabetes:

Quote:
Higher protein intake (g · kg–1 · d–1) was associated with a lower risk of pre-diabetes and diabetes. Associations were substantially attenuated after adjustments for BMI and waist circumference, which demonstrates a crucial role for adiposity and may account for previous conflicting findings.
Protein intake and the incidence of pre-diabetes and diabetes in 4 population-based studies: the PREVIEW project (The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, May 3, 2019)

And an interesting new study about weight and low-calorie sweeteners:

Quote:
Sucrose and saccharin consumption led to increased body weight across the 12-wk intervention (Δweight = +1.85 ± 0.36 kg and +1.18 ± 0.36 kg, respectively; P ≤ 0.02) and did not differ from each other.
A randomized controlled trial contrasting the effects of 4 low-calorie sweeteners and sucrose on body weight in adults with overweight or obesity (The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, April 27, 2019)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 7th July 2019, 11:59 PM   #221
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Also based on the BMJ article mentioned in post 214: Cutting back on fatty foods might be bad for you: study (New York Post, July 5, 2019)
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 07:10 PM   #222
Red Baron Farms
Philosopher
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 5,172
Ok well I skimmed the thread and didn't see it mentioned. So starting with type II diabetes. Actually there are many adult onset diabetes caused by a variety of things. But if you mean the gene SLC16A11 (and there may be more), then it was inherited from Neanderthals and the likely evolutionary advantage was it played an important role in preventing starvation.

Diabetes Risk May Come from Neanderthal Gene

I watched a few lectures on Neanderthal genomes given by Svante Pääbo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. He mentions finding the gene and making the evolutionary advantage hypothesis, but cautions that there are likely more genes involved and more research needs done. He also was clear to point out a gene beneficial to hunter gatherers wouldn't necessarily be beneficial to people eating a modern diet at all, since they are so different.

As for the trans fats resulting from the hydrogenation process, although supposedly removed from the food supply, don't be so sure in that. Industry found a loophole in the labeling laws that allows them to claim 0% transfats from the exact same hydrogenated fats they have always used from the beginning. Basically just by claiming a smaller "serving size" and rounding the fractions down, they are able to continue using transfats without much change at all.

Here is the original FDA final ruling : Small Entity Compliance Guide: Trans Fatty Acids in Nutrition Labeling, Nutrient Content Claims, and Health Claims which is still current as of: 09/20/2018

Oh and BTW certainly cutting healthy fats is not good for you at all. The problems are :
  1. Most Vegetable oils are way too high in n6 fatty acids Omega-6 vegetable oils as a driver of coronary heart disease: the oxidized linoleic acid hypothesis
  2. All hydrogenated oils still contain harmful transfats the body has difficulty metabolizing properly Trans Fats
  3. Animal fats can be healthy, but in US and many other industrialized nations, approximately 97%+ are not healthy due to the animals being raised in the industrialized CAFO factory farming methods and their lipid profiles are dramatically out of balance. A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef
So while sure fats are important, finding healthy fats is not nearly so easy. The easiest healthy source being nuts.
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 8th July 2019 at 07:37 PM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th July 2019, 08:12 PM   #223
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
[*]Animal fats can be healthy, but in US and many other industrialized nations, approximately 97%+ are not healthy due to the animals being raised in the industrialized CAFO factory farming methods and their lipid profiles are dramatically out of balance. A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef[/list]So while sure fats are important, finding healthy fats is not nearly so easy. The easiest healthy source being nuts.
Let me know when you find a study showing different outcomes in PEOPLE, not different lab analyses.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 07:45 AM   #224
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Ok well I skimmed the thread and didn't see it mentioned. So starting with type II diabetes. Actually there are many adult onset diabetes caused by a variety of things. But if you mean the gene SLC16A11 (and there may be more), then it was inherited from Neanderthals and the likely evolutionary advantage was it played an important role in preventing starvation.

Diabetes Risk May Come from Neanderthal Gene

If diabetes risk came from the Neanderthals, then it's weird that African Americans are disproportionately affected by diabetes.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 09:45 AM   #225
Red Baron Farms
Philosopher
 
Red Baron Farms's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 5,172
Originally Posted by dann View Post
If diabetes risk came from the Neanderthals, then it's weird that African Americans are disproportionately affected by diabetes.
Can you read? "Actually there are many adult onset diabetes caused by a variety of things."

Now why would you completely skip that part and go back to a false generalization fallacy? I mean I could accept it if you were simply ignorant of the fact there are many different causes for adult onset diabetes. The headline of the article I cited makes is seem that way. But I literally said it in the sentence just prior, just so people wouldn't be trolled by a poorly written headline! I even specifically named the gene that only comes from Neanderthals so you couldn't make a mistake in what precisely I was discussing.

Sometimes I wonder about people at this forum. The critical thinking skills found here sometimes are pretty good, but way too often I see complete fails.

Quote:
__________________
Scott
"Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison
Biome Carbon Cycle Management

Last edited by Red Baron Farms; 13th July 2019 at 09:54 AM.
Red Baron Farms is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th July 2019, 12:57 PM   #226
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Can you read? "Actually there are many adult onset diabetes caused by a variety of things."

Now why would you completely skip that part and go back to a false generalization fallacy? I mean I could accept it if you were simply ignorant of the fact there are many different causes for adult onset diabetes. The headline of the article I cited makes is seem that way. But I literally said it in the sentence just prior, just so people wouldn't be trolled by a poorly written headline! I even specifically named the gene that only comes from Neanderthals so you couldn't make a mistake in what precisely I was discussing.

Sometimes I wonder about people at this forum. The critical thinking skills found here sometimes are pretty good, but way too often I see complete fails.

Yes, I can read. Can you?!
And, yes, the headline of the article you cited made it seem that way, which is why I confronted it with a very obvious objection: That the segment of the American population with the fewest Neanderthal genes is also the one that is disproportionally affected by diabetes.
That the group of researchers mentioned in the article you link to are focussed on a pharmacological solution to the problem of diabetes type 2 (instead of diet and exercise) is something that you might have noticed if you had read the article carefully:

Quote:
These insights could "illuminate new pathways to target with drugs and a deeper understanding of the disease," study co-author José Florez, from the Broad Institute and Harvard Medical School, said in a statement.

Sometimes I wonder about (some) people at this forum ....
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 13th July 2019 at 12:58 PM.
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2019, 03:28 AM   #227
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,232
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I can read. Can you?!
And, yes, the headline of the article you cited made it seem that way, which is why I confronted it with a very obvious objection: That the segment of the American population with the fewest Neanderthal genes is also the one that is disproportionally affected by diabetes.
That the group of researchers mentioned in the article you link to are focussed on a pharmacological solution to the problem of diabetes type 2 (instead of diet and exercise) is something that you might have noticed if you had read the article carefully:




Sometimes I wonder about (some) people at this forum ....

Are you suggesting that there is an inconsistency between the facts that people with fewer Neanderthal genes are less likely to get diabetes and that a particular Neanderthal gene leads to greater diabetes risk?

If so, your logic is flawed.

If not, I'm not seeing what your objection is.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2019, 04:59 AM   #228
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Then I'll recommend that you read the article c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y - and maybe some other articles as well. This one, for instance:

Quote:
Racial and ethnic minorities, defined as American Indians and Alaska Natives, black or African Americans, Hispanics or Latinos, and Asian Americans, Native Hawaiians, and other Pacific Islanders, have a higher prevalence and greater burden of diabetes compared to whites, and some minority groups also have higher rates of complications. Despite medical advances and increasing access to medical care, disparities in health and health care still persist. In 2003, the Institute of Medicine released a landmark report titled “Unequal Treatment: Confronting Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Health Care,” providing evidence that racial and ethnic minorities are treated differently from whites in the U.S. health care system, resulting in poorer health for millions of Americans. Specifically, the report noted that African Americans, Hispanics, and Native Americans experience a 50–100% higher burden of illness and mortality from diabetes than white Americans.
The Disparate Impact of Diabetes on Racial/Ethnic Minority Populations (American Diabetes Association, July 2012)

The statistics in the same article are amazing.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th July 2019, 06:43 AM   #229
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Roboramma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,232
Originally Posted by dann View Post
Then I'll recommend that you read the article c-a-r-e-f-u-l-l-y - and maybe some other articles as well. This one, for instance:




The statistics in the same article are amazing.
Can you just clearly state exactly what it is you want me to carefully discover by reading that?
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2020, 05:36 AM   #230
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I've often wondered whether our cells need to send some kind of message that would lead to relieving the insulin resistance. Something like a ketone from fat burning. It would say "we are out of sugar, we are burning fat. Open the insulin receptors, insulin so we can burn up more sugar". And that is why the ketogenic Atkins diet works. Maybe.

Alcohol also lowers sugar*, it's why they tell diabetics not to drink. Alcohol breaks down into a ketone...

I still may try a drink mixed with acetone instead of alcohol. But it sounds like instant hang over.

*The docs tell me to diet to lower sugar. Exercise to lower sugar. Take pills to lower sugar. Take shots to lower sugar. but DO NOT TAKE ALCOHOL. Because it lowers sugar. Morons. But their big concern is that if I go low, and feint, people will think I am drunk rather than low. Seems like a social concern, more than medical. Anyhow, I have a glass of wine with dinner. Big glass, but exactly the ONE. WITH the meal. Test strips have shown it to drop my sugar about 25 points.

You will appreciate this new Swedish study:
Quote:
Ett glas rödvin till maten ger lägre blodsocker och stillar hungern bättre än ett alkoholfritt alternativ. Det visar en färsk studie från Linköpings universitet
Ny studie: Rödvin ger lägre blodsocker (SvenskaDagbladet.se, Dec. 12, 2020)
A glass of red wine with your meal lowers blood sugar and increases satiety better than an alternative without alcohol, according to a new study from the University of Linköping.
New study: Red wine lowers blood sugar
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2020, 08:05 AM   #231
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by dann View Post
You will appreciate this new Swedish study:

A glass of red wine with your meal lowers blood sugar and increases satiety better than an alternative without alcohol, according to a new study from the University of Linköping.
New study: Red wine lowers blood sugar
I'll drink to that! Skoal!

Yup, a moderate amount of alcohol is better for a diabetic than Statins are purported to be. A half carafe per day for me, with dinner and after. Down from a case of beer in two hours.
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2020, 05:39 PM   #232
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
I would like see more..

Were there any control groups with meals besides:

Quote:
.... a high-calorie meal consisting of a Big Mac and a Triple Chocolate Cookie, their blood sugar levels were lower than when they received non-alcoholic wine in the glasses .
Lower? Lower than what?

I would like to see the results after a high calorie meal of bacon and eggs - at one hour and 2 hours...

If this is supposed to be science, it's really bad science..

Is the idea supposed to be, that it's OK eat crap as long as you chase it with some wine?

Who funded this study?

Hopefully, it wasn't McDs' along with some winery...
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2020, 05:55 PM   #233
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
 
casebro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 18,628
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I would like see more..

Were there any control groups with meals besides:



Lower? Lower than what?

I would like to see the results after a high calorie meal of bacon and eggs - at one hour and 2 hours...

If this is supposed to be science, it's really bad science..

Is the idea supposed to be, that it's OK eat crap as long as you chase it with some wine?

Who funded this study?

Hopefully, it wasn't McDs' along with some winery...
Greg, where have you been for the last several decades?

It's a well known fact that alcohol lowers sugar. In fact, the reason the medicos were adamant about diabetics NOT drinking was that the booze might lower your sugar enough to cause a faint, and people won't treat the sugar because they think you passed out drunk. So I figured that that is more of a social reason than a medical reason. I've been diabetic for 40 years now, drinking all the while except for 13 years of T-total. Then I realized you folks are more fun if I've been drinking....
__________________
Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.
casebro is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th December 2020, 05:58 PM   #234
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
HansMustermann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 17,977
I wouldn't be surprised either way, but I don't think they literally meant "it's OK eat crap as long as you chase it with some wine." It just says it reduced the blood sugar levels after something that normally raises it sky high. It doesn't say it's ok to have that as the main part of your nutrition, just that a glass of wine somewhat mitigates it. In fact, the whole point of picking that "crap" for the experiment seems to be that, yes, it is actually rather extreme instead of normal or good, in its effects on your blood sugar level.

Which doesn't seem to me like necessarily bad science. Testing stuff in extreme conditions is done all the time. In fact, most of the stuff around you, from binning your CPU to the rebar in the walls, has (hopefully) been tested under stresses way outside the normal use they'll see, to make sure there's a safety margin.

And I don't think they said such a diet would be "good" in any other metric. E.g., they don't say that the sodium content of that big mac is ok or not. Again, they just say that a bit of alcohol somewhat mitigates against ONE factor.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2020, 01:56 PM   #235
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Lower? Lower than what?

It says so: Lower with alcohol than without alcohol:

Quote:
Tre timmar efter det att studiens friska frivilliga deltagare – sju män och sju kvinnor, samtliga läkarstudenter – hade druckit ett glas rödvin till en kaloririk måltid bestående av en Big Mac och en Triple Chocolate Cookie var deras blodsockervärden lägre än när de fick alkoholfritt vin i glasen.
Three hours after the healthy volunteers in the study - seven men and seven women, all medical students - had had a glass of red wine with a high-calorie meal consisting of a Big Mac and a Triple Chocolate Cookie, their blood sugar levels were lower than when they had non-alcoholic wine in the glasses.

It doesn't say that their blood sugar values were low after the meal!
There is also this: Light drinking may be beneficial in type 2 diabetes: Further research needed (ScienceDaily, Sep 16, 2019)
The Swedish study is "further research" that seems to support the idea.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2020, 04:06 PM   #236
Skeptical Greg
Agave Wine Connoisseur
 
Skeptical Greg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' .
Posts: 16,915
Are you suggesting how high it was doesn't matter?

Are they good with " wine drinkers were only 130, while the non wine group was 150 " ?

"Light drinking may be beneficial in type 2 Diabetes.."

Really ?

How about lower carbohydrate intake?

If it's low enough, over a long enough period, remission usually occurs..

But never mind... Take your meds and have a glass of wine..
__________________
" The main problem I have with the idea of heaven, is the thought of
spending eternity with most of the people who claim to be going there. "
Skeptical Greg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th December 2020, 10:50 PM   #237
Puppycow
Penultimate Amazing
 
Puppycow's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Yokohama, Japan
Posts: 25,726
Originally Posted by casebro View Post
T2D is such a common genetic disease there must be an advantage to it, or it would have been eliminated from the gene pool.
I question the premise. It could be that there is neither an evolutionary advantage, nor an evolutionary disadvantage.

It may also be the case that in the past it was less of a problem than it has become in an environment where people can be sedentary and overconsume so easily. Just as obesity is more common now than it was in the past. Change the environment and something that used to be neutral or advantageous may become a disadvantage. Humans have changed their own environment faster than we could have time to fully adapt to on a genetic level. I think that we are evolving, but it may take many more generations to catch up to the environment we currently occupy. By then, the environment may have changed again.
__________________
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.
William Shakespeare
Puppycow is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 14th December 2020, 03:24 AM   #238
dann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,518
Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
Are you suggesting how high it was doesn't matter?

Are they good with " wine drinkers were only 130, while the non wine group was 150 " ?

"Light drinking may be beneficial in type 2 Diabetes.."

Really ?

How about lower carbohydrate intake?

If it's low enough, over a long enough period, remission usually occurs..

But never mind... Take your meds and have a glass of wine..

I haven't found the Swedish study, but by giving the people in the study identical meals, it seems to have avoided one major problem with many studies of this issue: very unleliable self-reporting. Same meal with wine, in one case with alcohol, in another without.

It would be a good idea to carry out the same test with low-calorie or low-carbohydrate meals.

The study doesn't seem to say that this is to be considered as a cure for type-2 diabetes.
I personally don't take meds, I don't drink much, and I don't have diabetes.
__________________
/dann
"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
dann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th December 2020, 05:37 PM   #239
Louden Wilde
Thinker
 
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: NYC
Posts: 149
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I question the premise. It could be that there is neither an evolutionary advantage, nor an evolutionary disadvantage.

It may also be the case that in the past it was less of a problem than it has become in an environment where people can be sedentary and overconsume so easily. Just as obesity is more common now than it was in the past. Change the environment and something that used to be neutral or advantageous may become a disadvantage. Humans have changed their own environment faster than we could have time to fully adapt to on a genetic level. .
This! Modern humans are thought to have been around > 200,000 years. It's only in the last few thousand that many of us have had the combination of nearly unlimited access to calories and ability to lead to a sedentary life. Note that restricting calories and/or time-restricted eating and/or fasting all increase insulin sensitivity - I've posted a number of references to get into the lit in this thread

To be clear, no I don't think T2DM was selected for, rather genotypes that
were selected for now predispose to T2DM susceptibility under current "western" conditions (prolonged increased calorie intake/reduced activity)
Louden Wilde is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th December 2020, 02:50 PM   #240
CORed
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 10,077
Originally Posted by dann View Post
It says so: Lower with alcohol than without alcohol:


Three hours after the healthy volunteers in the study - seven men and seven women, all medical students - had had a glass of red wine with a high-calorie meal consisting of a Big Mac and a Triple Chocolate Cookie, their blood sugar levels were lower than when they had non-alcoholic wine in the glasses.

It doesn't say that their blood sugar values were low after the meal!
There is also this: Light drinking may be beneficial in type 2 diabetes: Further research needed (ScienceDaily, Sep 16, 2019)
The Swedish study is "further research" that seems to support the idea.
I'm a type 2 diabetic. This coincides with my personal observation that light alcohol consumption seems to lower blood sugar.
CORed is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.