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Tags general discussion , holocaust , holocaust denial , World War II history

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Old 28th July 2016, 04:20 PM   #361
Nick Terry
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Originally Posted by EtienneSC View Post
This was a controversial period of intellectual activity in Germany, when areas of scholarship divested themselves of philosophical and theological oversight. It was not seen by all as an advance at the time.
This misses the point about the Rankean paradigm, which was primarily about research methodology, above all placing archives at the centre of historical research. Social sciences likewise organised themselves to a significant degree around distinctive research methodologies, e.g. ethnography for anthropology, or social surveys for sociologists, or the testing laboratory for psychologists.

It was precisely these social science methods and their influence that led to 20th Century innovations like the systematic gathering of eyewitness accounts and oral histories - the 2,300 oral histories of former slaves gathered in the mid-1930s were some of the first examples of this. The British Mass Observation diary-writing project was another example - mainly revolving around 480 diarists.

What is now 'archived' is vastly more expansive than was the case in Ranke's day, the state was never the only institution to preserve archives, churches always did, but now a plethora of other social groups do this, and they preserve or collect a wide range of materials, from diaries and letters to oral history videos they have conducted themselves. All this goes hand in hand with a growth in the types of history that are written, as well as cross-pollination between them.

The state-worshipping forms of 'Great Man' history typical of Ranke's era are decidedly old-fashioned.

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Why, for example, would we need different doctrines of the epistemology of testimony for history, law, etc? - it is a unitary subject. Authors of the "Two Germanys" school (e,g, Muirhead) regarded this as a cultural decline
Well, no, it's not a unitary subject, because testimony takes radically different forms and is collected and preserved in different ways, at different times after an event. Criminal lawyers frequently deal with the testimonies of eyewitnesses to singular events, and so the psychological research that exists to support them has been geared towards the questions that concern lawyers, especially the problems of witness identification and 'weapon focus'. Some of this research translates very well to historical questions, but it is relatively useless for the problems confronting many other historians.

Social historians might use life histories recorded orally by interviewers, or they might conduct interviews themselves. Testimony about extended periods of someone's life is different to testimony about the events of a few minutes or hours, as might be the case in court.

I have seen two history PhD students talk about their oral history research this past academic year alone, one working on a social and cultural history of the Sixties in Britain, the other working on anti-apartheid activists in 1980s Soweto. In both cases, gender issues became a significant factor influencing what was said and how the respective memories were constructed 30-50 years later.

In both cases also, the interviews were necessary to get at things which are not preserved in other sources; while contemporary media recorded the broad outline of 'what happened', they don't necessarily tell us how the events were experienced and understood. Anti-apartheid activists were operating in clandestine conditions and wrote little down; what was written down was often seized by the police, and what was seized by the police was destroyed deliberately before the transition to full democracy. Similarly, while many teenagers and some twentysomethings were writing 'dear diary' and sending each other potentially telling letters in 1965, these sources aren't necessarily archived - the authors threw them away when they moved, still hold on to them or have passed them onto relatives who have forgotten them in their attics. Maybe when the next generation is sorting out their grandparents' effects and come across a diary explaining how excited they were to see the Beatles they might think to deposit it in an archive. Or not.

Testimony has a sociology as well as a psychology - who gives a testimony is socially constructed, whether that be the refusal of a witness to testify against a gang that are making threats, or it's the decision of a now retired housewife to accept a request from an Oxford PhD student to talk about her late teens in the mid-1960s.

Cultural differences also come into play; western cultures are used to testifying as individuals in a variety of different contexts even without having been in a court, whereas a number of African societies take a far more collective approach - they will testify to things they did not see themselves because the events were talked about by the whole village or 'street', and not see anything odd about this, as we would.

Collective memory, social memory and cultural memory are therefore all concepts that have to be absorbed to understand testimony in a wide variety of contexts. They then trigger certain methodological corollaries, such as analysing the body of testimonies collectively, rather than singling out one testimony at a time. That is what judges and juries do when weighing up the sum total of testimonies in a particular legal case; this doesn't stop them discounting one witness and believing another.

As for the epistemology of testimony, this is a distinct field within philosophy now, and is decidedly interdisciplinary precisely because history, law and psychology have all developed discipline-specific concerns. C.A.J. Coady's Testimony (1992) is a foundational work and mounts a counteroffensive against reductivist interpretations of testimony. Social epistemologists like Jennifer Lackey now research testimony extensively. Also relevant for this discussion is Miranda Fricker's work on epistemic injustice, specifically testimonial injustice, where the testimony of women and other non-dominant groups is devalued explicitly or implicitly in social or legal settings. Much other philosophy examining testimony does so through a legal prism, e.g. Douglas Walton's Witness Testimony Evidence; Walton is also very good on corroboration and the convergence of evidence. Philosophers of legal evidence and the philosophy of evidence in general all tackle similar themes as well (eg William Twining, David Schum, Susan Haack).

In case you forgot, I am a university historian, and I teach the philosophy of history and historical theory at masters' level; I've used some of these texts in seminars. Teaching legal history in the form of the history of war crimes trials is another context in which this theme is explicitly addressed in class.

But I look around at my colleagues' courses, their fields and the literature that exists for them and I find them using memoirs, oral histories, diaries and other testimonial sources, along with the critical literatures about these source types, so once again, this stuff isn't unique to the history of the Holocaust in the slightest.

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What I find with holocaust history, is that the more cautious an author is, the more modest his conclusions and hence the more consistent with revisionism.
The example you give below doesn't follow from this statement at all.

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For example, looking at the start of Wolfgang Benz's Dimensionen des Völkermords (1996), Benz quotes two reports of remarks by Eichmann from the Nuremberg trials about the scale of killings - without endorsing them (pages 1-2). One states that 4 million died in camps, which I think is no longer believed (900,000 in Auschwitz, 1.5 million AR, 150,000 elsewhere is not 4 million). Benz does not address this at this point in the text (he is not obliged to), but states that Eichmann did not deny their accuracy in Jerusalem. None of this implies that what Eichmann reportedly said is true or that he really said it. This is sound method, but although it creates an impression on the non-revisionist reader, it proves nothing about the fate of the Jews.
You're referring to Hoettl's affidavit (2738-PS) which was the source cited in the Nuremberg judgement to support an estimate of 6 million Jews murdered by the Nazis. This source and the judgement were of course one of the reasons why 'six million' caught on and became the standard number mentioned. So Hoettl's affidavit will always have a historical significance irrespective of what it actually said and whether that single testimony is of probative value.

But the IMT judgement cited it because the tribunal had heard many different sources, from Nazi documents to investigative reports to other testimonies offering statistics and figures for the number of murdered Jews, including one from Dieter Wisliceny reporting a similar hearsay statement of Eichmann about 5 million victims, and another from Rudolf Hoess, also attributed to Eichmann that evidently conflated the total number deported (2.5 million) with the number deported to Auschwitz alone, which Hoess soon enough repudiated and corrected, already while at Nuremberg.

Benz cited Hoettl in the introduction to an edited collection examining the demographics of the Holocaust in individual countries, i.e. by definition the main body of the book did not rely on Hoettl and was examining other sources to produce numbers for France, Germany, etc. In other words, he cited Hoettl (a) because it's the acknowledged source of the post-1945 popular acceptance of 'the six million' and (b) because various idiot deniers have over the years made the rookie mistake, which you are now repeating, of thinking that they can debunk what is in essence a tertiary source of data - hearsay (1) that may or may not have been remembered correctly from Eichmann (2) who may or may not have remembered statistics passing through his office (3) correctly - and make the slightest dent in the sum total of the evidence.

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I made the remark in light of a specific discussion elsewhere of German Einsatzgruppen records held in Maryland, USA. I understand that one set of these were discovered by the Soviets in Berlin in 1945 and handed to the Americans.
Your understanding of the provenance of the Ereignismeldungen (whose originals are now in the Bundesarchiv Berlin-Lichterfelde, by the way; NARA has microfilm copies only) is incorrect.

They were not handed to the US Army by the Soviets; US document teams had captured the larger pile of documents independently, and it took over a year before investigators stumbled across them amidst the enormous pile of paper.

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Vincent Reynouard has added up the fatalities on one set of Meldungen ("reports"). It appears that these may exist at several levels and have been collated.
You are correct, there are 11 summary Taetigkeits- und Lageberichte of the Einsatzgruppen compiled on a monthly basis, by editing together verbatim parts of the Ereignismeldungen. Textual comparison proves the link irrefutably.

This is important, because a full set of the TuLBs was found in the Foreign Office records which were, incidentally, originally captured by the British. They are therefore independent sources, and since they mention enough of the big, revisionist-disturbing massacres, refute any attempt to claim that Soviet secret agents manipulated the texts for the Americans to find, which is the only claim that can be justified since the Soviets DID NOT HAND THEM OVER. Got it?

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Some doubts about authenticity and provenance can be raised.
No, they cannot.

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There was an order to report the numbers of Jews in each region, but the reports refer to "Jews executed". There is no reason intrinsic to the documents to doubt their authenticity. Reynouard arrived at figures in the region of 335,000 Jews reported killed and totals killed in the region of 445,000 by adding up the numbers in all the reports.
I do love it when revisionists reinvent the wheel and confirm what is already known by historians.

Gerd Robel in his chapter on the USSR in the Benz collection you mentioned above already covered this twenty five years ago. The Ereignismeldungen give a number of headline statistics reported by the four Einsatzgruppen by spring 1942. Added up, these come to indeed around 445,000. But the texts of the reports do not identify all of the actions carried out by each group; some actions are known from other sources while others are known from testimonies. It would be a basic fail to assume that the reports are comprehensive and that 'only' 335,000 executions were really being claimed.

The bigger fail is ignoring the contribution of some Sicherheitspolizei commands set up after the Einsatzgruppen passed through, as well as the contributions of the Ordnungspolizei, Waffen-SS, Wehrmacht, Romanian Army, Romanian Gendarmerie, assorted collaborators and pogromchiki, not to mention the rhythm and pacing of the waves of mass murders, since the 'first wave' of Einsatzgruppen murders was followed in 1942 by a 'second wave'.

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However, apparently the Maryland records total to something a little short of 2 million.
Nope. The sum total of documents recording mass executions of Jews in the occupied Soviet Union, drawn from western as well as East European archives, not forgetting Romanian sources, quantifies about 75-80% of the 2 million death toll from shootings in the USSR. The remainder are quantified from postwar exhumations and investigations, diaries, underground reports, and eyewitnesses, the sum total being checked against demographics and survivor numbers depending on the republic in question. There are likely further possibilities for hardening up numbers still left in archives and contemporary Axis documents.

Compared to many other outbreaks of mass violence, that's a stunningly high percentage to be attributed to perpetrator sources.

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Mattogno apparently intends to publish on the subject late in 2017.
Whereas conventional historians have been publishing steadily on this since 1981...

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I have no problem with that in principle, only with the priority and probative value attributed to them when they are not supported by official records.
Then you really should not be a revisionist, because everything of significance regarding the Holocaust is supported by official records one way or another.

The surviving records establish a solid framework that contains gaps and holes on matters of detail, which are then filled in using non-Nazi contemporary sources, some of which are technically just as 'official' as Nazi records, and postwar sources. These sources are then corroborated by the survival of official Nazi documents for analogous cases.

For example, the Korherr report's use of special treatment in the original draft (as proven by a separate document) applied to the three Reinhard camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka as well as to Chelmno (by inference regarding its use for the Warthegau deportations). In both cases we have further documents referring to special treatment in connection to the Reinhard camps as well as Chelmno. The Nazi governor-general of Poland, Hans Frank, repeatedly referred to the destruction of the Jews, which is wholly relevant context for BST. Globocnik's reports on Einsatz Reinhard, while avoiding discussing gassing, killing, destruction or special treatment, confirm what is known from other sources as well, namely that the personnel of these camps were drawn from the T4 euthanasia program. Documents prove the use of gassing in T4. There is finally the explicit report on the use of gas vans at Chelmno.

If there were no surviving witnesses and no contemporary Polish underground reports regarding Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, one would still have to conclude that the most probable fate of Jews deported to those camps was to be gassed, the only thing that would be less clear is the precise method, since the inference from overlap-in-the-Korherr report with Chelmno might suggest gas vans, while the inference from the T4 connection might suggest the use of bottled carbon monoxide. The use of engines to generate carbon monoxide in static gas chambers is not "documented", but that is what the witnesses and contemporary reports agree on, once one has thrown out the hearsay rumours of wilder methods. There are no surviving Nazi documents saying that the Nazis gassed Jews at Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka, but these are not needed because of the contextual and analogous Nazi documentation, which then corroborates the non-Nazi contemporary and postwar evidence stating the claim.

This conclusion sits inside further Russian dolls of inference constructed from Nazi documents, such as the fact that the deportation documents show transports ending at these camps, or speak of 'intakes' (Zugang, as used in the Hoefle telegram), and the fact that leading Nazis such as Heinrich Himmler spoke explicitly of killing Jewish women and children when discussing Polish Jews, even though they did not feel the need to describe the mechanics of gassing in these statements.

A further inference seals the deal, namely inference to the best explanation, i.e. comparing the interpretation of the sum total of evidence pointing to gassing and mass murder at these camps, with the evidence that might be interpreted to point in another direction, such as 'resettlement' and 'transit'.

The pile of evidence pointing to extermination is colossally larger than for 'resettlement', the quality of the evidence for 'transit' is infinitely worse than for murder - nearly all of it is hearsay - a lot of the sources claimed to support it are demonstrably being misinterpreted out of context by revisionists, and there are far, far more gaps and holes in the 'resettlement' thesis than the other way around, to the point where it cannot stand up on its own independently and be taken seriously.

The evidence for mass murder can be synthesised into a coherent narrative, whereas resettlement cannot - revisonists haven't even tried to do the latter. Moreover, the interpretation of mass murder can explain and incorporate in all the anomalies of supposed resettlement evidence whereas the resettlement interpretation cannot incorporate all the "anomalies" of extermination evidence into its narrative.

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I originally downloaded your (collective) book on AR as a pdf which was unreadable in Kindle format. I now see that it is available in a Kindle-compatible (.mobi) format on Archive.org. I was not previously aware of this document, so will review your work more thoroughly. It is widely felt that the history of the camps on both sides is unsatisfactory, partly through lack of documentation.
Sara Berger's Experten der Vernichtung (2013) is also available on Kindle, albeit for purchase (21.99 euros, £15.99, £21.43). This book factored in many more sources than we included, yet I now know of even more sources that were not used either in our critique back in 2011 or in Berger's book.

A revised and expanded edition of our critique will be out next year.

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They have referred to some aspects on the basis of declassified British documents, discussed the role of Ben Hecht in the USA, Ilya Ehrenburg in the Soviet Union, Polish/Jewish sources, etc. I'm not sure why brief discussions "don't count".
Because they don't add up to a comprehensive account of the entire phenomenon (knowledge of and reporting of news of mass murder), nor do they establish causative significance to the examples you mention.

The news of the Holocaust did not originate with Ben Hecht, he was about six steps removed from the fugitives reporting what was happening in the death camps

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If Treblinka was a mere transit camp, it would not be identified as a point of origin.
Utter BS. The Nazis identified *real* transit camps in their documents and they also identified from where people had originated if they were evacuated, expelled, resettled or deported. There are plenty of documents specifying Drancy-Auschwitz as a journey, there are also documents specifying that Jews, Poles or Russians originating from district abc had been moved to district xyz.

1. There aren't any documents mentioning resettled Jews in large numbers anywhere in Eastern Europe
2. There aren't any documents mentioning Jews resettled from Warsaw in large numbers anywhere in Eastern Europe
3. There aren't any documents mentioning Jews resettled from Treblinka in large numbers to anywhere else in Eastern Europe

Take your pick; the sources you need simply don't exist. You can clutch at straws and claim they were destroyed, lost or some other get-out clause, but they don't exist. Ergo you cannot say anything historical about this subject.

Remember, your own epistemology emphasises documents, yet you don't have any!

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Overall, there is little point me wasting your time further before I have studied your (collective) work.
And the nearly five years of blog posts since the critique.

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Plainly, without names, the granularity on the holocaust side is itself not ideal.
The historical record is never "ideal". As I said before: historians have managed to prove all manner of economic, political, social, military and genocidal developments across the ages and around the world without always disposing of name lists.

But since you want names, here's a link to the digitised archive of the Lodz ghetto Jewish council, with name lists for deportees in 1942 and 1944, as well as masses of other granular material - 700,000 pages worth, in all.

As you should know, Chelmno was the first death camp to be set up, so it would only be fair to ask that revisionists can debunk it first (properly - as in proving an alternative), and if they cannot, then they might consider shutting up and getting a life.

I know your hero Mattogno has written a slim booklet on the camp, and I'd enjoy discussing the sources for Lodz and Chelmno, as a change from other camps.
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Old 30th July 2016, 07:34 AM   #362
JimRizoli
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Show me how it happened.....

Please show me how the HoloHoax happened....

What I want to see is the HoloHuxsters showing me how it happened in a mock up scenario....
Get on that roof in Krema 1 in auschwitz through those ZB pellets on the floor and lets see what happens.
Not a complicated thing......I say NOTHING will happen. No poof of gas NOTHING.
That is why in the USA when the "gassed" a criminal in a real live gas chamber it took a lot of apparatus to accomplish the deed.
You can't gas 800 people in a 1000 sq ft rm the way the rooms were set up then......Please show me with a mock set up.
All events can be recreated, the JFK assignation has been recreated, 911 building mock ups, other crime scenes to forensically show how things happened .....but not the Holohoax.......WHY? Why hasn't the biggest so called murder scene to ever come on the face of this earth not be recreated forensically to prove what happened?

Sure the HoloHoax movies show it happening but those are moves to entertain and can make anything happen, but to recreate a real live homicidal gassing using not people with sensitive instruments to show ZB readings in the room that would actually cause the death of a person thats what I'm talking about.
It's not done because it can't be done using the data that is coming from those that say it happened.
Is what I am asking not reasonable.....then if you can prove it I would have to finally admit I was wrong in my findings and research done.
Just like I asked the Jews in my town to debate me on the HoloHoax guess what NO takers........

Reason why they would have to answer some hard hitting questions. Thats why you never see the HoloHoax debated in court....
If the HoloHuxsters are cross examined they would be torn apart by a good lawyer....or me.
The last time there was a cross examination of the HoloHoax topic in court, that was revealing excluding the David Irving trial, was in 1985 with the Zundel Trial, when the trial was continued in 1988 no more witnesses showed up.....I wonder why..... LOL

I have permission to use this "copyrighted" material by Germar Rudolf......so all you copyright freaks back off.......
a little long but worth reading.....Lets talk about those so called "Eye" witnesses......

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GERMAR RUDOLF,LECTURES ON THE HOLOCAUST 369
...
To date, the only trial in which any such (revealing) cross-examination ever took place was the so-called “Zündel trial” in 1985, at which two Jewish witnesses, Arnold Friedman and Rudolf Vrba, were cross-examined by defense attorney Douglas Christie, advised by Prof. Dr. Robert Faurisson.
...
Edited by jsfisher:  Edited for compliance with Rule 4 of the Membership Agreement. Quote tags added to appropriately isolate copied text. Original content is available at this link.

Last edited by jsfisher; 30th July 2016 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 30th July 2016, 01:24 PM   #363
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A TAKE ON THE POPE'S VISIT TO AUSCHWITZ

A take on this event from a friend of mine in TALBOT TALES #4

But the Pope could not have met anyone who was there as a child – because we’ve been told time and time again that all children were immediately sent to the gas chamber upon arrival. So are these “survivors” impostors?
But I note that the Pope was introduced to Helena Dunicz Niwinska, a 101-year-old woman who played the violin in the Auschwitz orchestra. I’ve no doubt that Helena met my late Aunt Miriam who also performed in the women’s orchestra at the Birkenau camp. She played the Harp – while her sister-in-law, Esther, was the proud possessor of a Tuba. But unfortunately for poor Esther, she was sent to the gas chamber. But this was not due to poor, or mediocre, performances – but because the Tuba is a brass instrument that has to be played upright with the wide conical bore facing upwards towards the sky. Well, of course, the orchestra was mostly performing outdoors, and all the human ash that belched out of the crematorium chimneys soon fell back to earth and descended straight into the wide, gaping cone of Esther’s Tuba and swiftly gunged up all the pipes and valves making the instrument unplayable.

The distraught conductor of the orchestra reported the problem to the SS guard, who barked out orders “that if prisoner number 549623 couldn’t play a musical instrument, then she must sing instead”. But, oh dear – poor Esther could only render high-pitched Yiddish folk songs that she had learned back in the Polish Shtetl, and the SS guard was aghast at such a dreadful din. He certainly didn’t want any mournful shrieking in his death camp. Mass murder, genocide, and exterminations should only be accompanied by light operettas, and upbeat polonaises and mazurkas so as to get the victims in the right mood for the final solution. Therefore, the guard informed her regretfully, that she was superfluous to requirements and must be sent immediately to the gas chamber.

Of course, Aunt Miriam was terribly upset about the fate of her sister-in-law, but just a couple of days later, Miriam herself was given orders to leave Auschwitz and board a train – along with her harp – on a transport of prisoners to Sobibor. Unbeknown to her at the time, this was due to the commandant at the Rheinhardt camp requesting that a musician be sent to Sobibor because its death camp – unlike all the others – had an exceptionally long “Street to Heaven” in which the naked victims were whipped on their way to the gas chamber. The commandant thought that it would be a good idea to deploy a musician who could play the harp, in order to pacify the victims and get them in the right mood for their imminent departure into the next world. The sweet, divine, angelic sounds of a harp would be perfect in his estimation.

So Aunt Miriam was ordered to set up her position at the entrance to the “Street to Heaven” and played a repertoire of delightful tunes that soothed the victims fears and apprehensions. She would continue plucking the strings until the last Jew had passed through the narrow pathway into the gas chamber, whereupon she would be directed by the commandant to cease playing. Then, immediately afterwards, an SS guard would throw a stick at a nearby flock of geese, which would immediately start honking and quacking loudly to drown out the screams of the doomed victims inside the chamber.
Everything went smoothly at Sobibor right through until the early autumn of 1943 when some of the sondercommandos decided to revolt, and escape from the camp. The inmates grabbed Aunt Miriam’s harp and used it as a battering ram to force their way through the gate of the camp, which of course gravely damaged the delicate instrument. After the revolt was over, the Sobibor camp was soon closed down, but the commandant promised Miriam that he would have the harp repaired so that she could play some carols and seasonal music at the forthcoming SS Christmas Party. All the honking geese of Sobibor were slaughtered by having their necks wrung, and after they were fully plucked, were roasted on the burning pyres – but unlike the human bodies that were fully consumed into ash, the geese were gently cooked until they were nicely done and then served at the party. Even Aunt Miriam was occasionally tossed a few scraps of meat and goose-fat by an indulgent SS guard if she agreed to play his musical request on the harp.
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Old 30th July 2016, 03:48 PM   #364
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Please show me how the HoloHoax happened....

What I want to see is the HoloHuxsters showing me how it happened in a mock up scenario....
Some were shot.

Some were gassed in vans designed to pump the exhaust into the back.

Some were gassed.

Some were starved to death.

Which do you wish to try out first? The rest of the demonstrations may be problematic.





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Old 30th July 2016, 05:07 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Which do you wish to try out first? The rest of the demonstrations may be problematic.
"Eichmann suggests shooting."
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Old 31st July 2016, 11:29 AM   #366
JimRizoli
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Where is the Proof....

Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Some were shot.

Some were gassed in vans designed to pump the exhaust into the back.

Some were gassed.

Some were starved to death.

Which do you wish to try out first? The rest of the demonstrations may be problematic.
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Sounds good now prove it.....lots of talk but NO forensics proof.
Sure you say you have all the proof but like all HoloHuxsters it's all talk.
Dead bodies prove what? Show me a real homicidal gas chamber...
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Old 31st July 2016, 02:07 PM   #367
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Sounds good now prove it.....lots of talk but NO forensics proof.
Sure you say you have all the proof but like all HoloHuxsters it's all talk.
Dead bodies prove what? Show me a real homicidal gas chamber...
You asked for a "mock up scenario." In turn you were asked which you wished to have first - shooting, gassing in a van, gassing (in a fixed chamber), or starvation. You were warned that your first choice would be problematic for subsequent trials. Now you ask for something else. Please stay with your own train of thought - which method would you like trying first? Eichmann recommended shooting . . . do you doubt the efficacy of death by shooting?
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Old 31st July 2016, 07:23 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Please show me how the HoloHoax happened....
(remainder snipped)
Holocaust: A Layman's Guide to Auschwitz-Birkenau at the Nizkor Project. Read especially this entry on Zyklon B.

I keep in mind the adage that it is difficult to reason someone out of a position that he/she has reasoned himself into. Therefore if you wish not to believe something that has occurred with the memories of people who are still living, there is little hope that merely presenting facts will change your position. We see that as well with 9/11 "truthers," climate change deniers, and Flat Earthers.
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Old 31st July 2016, 08:02 PM   #369
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Sounds good now prove it.....lots of talk but NO forensics proof.
You were already given this information before you were banned from the Skeptics Society Forum last week. Did you look it up?

"During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay......"
Justice Lukaszkiewicz 1945 Polish investigation of Treblinka II
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Old 31st July 2016, 08:22 PM   #370
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Holocaust: A Layman's Guide to Auschwitz-Birkenau at the Nizkor Project. Read especially this entry on Zyklon B.

I keep in mind the adage that it is difficult to reason someone out of a position that he/she has reasoned himself into. Therefore if you wish not to believe something that has occurred with the memories of people who are still living, there is little hope that merely presenting facts will change your position. We see that as well with 9/11 "truthers," climate change deniers, and Flat Earthers.
Van Pelt's The Case for Auschwitz has dozens of sketches showing how the Auschwitz killing installations were set up and operated. Van Pelt is also part of the Evidence Room project, which grew out of the work in The Case for Auschwitz: ‘The Evidence Room’: Architects Examine the Horrors of Auschwitz; The Evidence Room presents "the worst crime ever committed by an architect". Here is a long paper submitted by Richard J. Green in the Irving trial on Auschwitz forensic investigation: Report of Richard J. Green, PhD.

Still, I'd like to have the poster explain, as a first case, why he requires a "mock up" of how shooting can kill people, as, contrary to his implications, about 2 million Jews were shot to death by the Germans and their associates ("Mass Shootings 1941-43 c. 2 million in USSR, Poland, Yugoslavia")
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Old 31st July 2016, 10:44 PM   #371
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Please show me how the HoloHoax happened....

What I want to see is the HoloHuxsters showing me how it happened in a mock up scenario....
Get on that roof in Krema 1 in auschwitz through those ZB pellets on the floor and lets see what happens.
Not a complicated thing......I say NOTHING will happen. No poof of gas NOTHING.
That is why in the USA when the "gassed" a criminal in a real live gas chamber it took a lot of apparatus to accomplish the deed.
You can't gas 800 people in a 1000 sq ft rm the way the rooms were set up then......Please show me with a mock set up.
All events can be recreated, the JFK assignation has been recreated, 911 building mock ups, other crime scenes to forensically show how things happened .....but not the Holohoax.......WHY? Why hasn't the biggest so called murder scene to ever come on the face of this earth not be recreated forensically to prove what happened?

Sure the HoloHoax movies show it happening but those are moves to entertain and can make anything happen, but to recreate a real live homicidal gassing using not people with sensitive instruments to show ZB readings in the room that would actually cause the death of a person thats what I'm talking about.
It's not done because it can't be done using the data that is coming from those that say it happened.
Is what I am asking not reasonable.....then if you can prove it I would have to finally admit I was wrong in my findings and research done.
Just like I asked the Jews in my town to debate me on the HoloHoax guess what NO takers........

Reason why they would have to answer some hard hitting questions. Thats why you never see the HoloHoax debated in court....
If the HoloHuxsters are cross examined they would be torn apart by a good lawyer....or me.
The last time there was a cross examination of the HoloHoax topic in court, that was revealing excluding the David Irving trial, was in 1985 with the Zundel Trial, when the trial was continued in 1988 no more witnesses showed up.....I wonder why..... LOL

I have permission to use this "copyrighted" material by Germar Rudolf......so all you copyright freaks back off.......
a little long but worth reading.....Lets talk about those so called "Eye" witnesses......



Edited by jsfisher:  Edited for compliance with Rule 4 of the Membership Agreement. Quote tags added to appropriately isolate copied text. Original content is available at this link.
It really doesn't take too much apparatus to make the gas chambers in the United States to work. An airtight room, a solid material is dropped into a bucket of a solution [I'm sorry but I don't feel like looking up the exact chemical composition of these material] and hydrogen cyanide gas is produced. It isn't complicated. Zyklon B produced hydrogen cyanide gas by being exposed to the air. So why wouldn't dropping ZB into an airtight room kill anybody in that room?

It's a well known fact that Zyklon B was used to delouse clothing and bedding and barracks at all the German concentration camps. In fact, most of the Zyklon B was used for this purpose. Do you deny the fact that the Germans deloused clothes and barracks?
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Old 1st August 2016, 06:26 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by EtienneSC View Post
It is not easy. There was a TV program a few years ago trying to trace one family (that of the actor Jane Seymour). Plainly there are no resources to multiply that effort a million fold. Where are the names of the 1,274,166 sent through the AR camps - in which archive are they held? The only back up document cited is generally a British intelligence decrypt. Perhaps it would be possible to do some tracing on the basis of small but a statistically significant sample. It is not mathematically possible to deal with totals when there is more than one missing, dubious or ambiguous figure, as there is more than one solution to any equation.
I'll give you a significant sample.

Between 2 March and 20 July 1943, there were 19 transports from transit camp Westerbork in the Netherlands to Sobibor. Together, they contained at least 34,313 Jews. Their transport lists have been preserved and can be found in the Dutch National Archives. According to the research of Jules Schelvis, there were only around 20 survivors of these transports (himself included).

To make it easier for you, there's also the digital "Jewish Monument" with the names and fates of all the over 104,000 Dutch Jews murdered in the Holocaust.

In order to establish the credibility of your doubts, why don't you give me one name - just one name - out of those 34,000 Dutch Sobibor victims who was still alive on 9 May 1945.

I've asked this question earlier on (previous parts of) this thread, in response to other deniers, and no-one has yet answered the question with a name.
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Old 1st August 2016, 08:57 AM   #373
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How about giving me ONE name of a person who in ANY of the camps was shown forensically to be gassed with ZB.
And a picture of the "gas" chamber.

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Old 1st August 2016, 08:59 AM   #374
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Not interested in shooting recreation....LOL just a picture of a homicidal gas chamber will do.

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Old 1st August 2016, 09:02 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Not interested in shooting recreation....LOL just a picture of a homicidal gas chamber will do.

Jim Rizoli
USA
So you stipulate to about 2 million Jews shot by the Germans and their associates?

Good to hear, but you now make it unclear what you're after, as there's a great deal on the operation and efficacy of gas murder as CaptainHowdy tells you - and in sources cited in this thread (and others).
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Old 1st August 2016, 09:03 AM   #376
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
How about giving me ONE name of a person who in ANY of the camps was shown forensically to be gassed with ZB.
And a picture of the "gas" chamber.

Jim Rizoli
So you cannot deal with the information provided by ddt? It stands not only unrefuted but not even commented on.
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Old 1st August 2016, 09:09 AM   #377
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Ashes don't prove how people were killed.
Why do you people skirt around the issues......Again show me a body that was killed in a homicidal gas chamber.....There has to be ONE in all the pictures that were taken of the camps.

...snip...
Edited by jsfisher:  Content edited for compliance with Rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.


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Old 1st August 2016, 09:59 AM   #378
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Prove to me forensically that 2 million people were shot by the E...
Were were they buried? Thats a lot of people there must be a trace of them somewhere.....but guess what? Poof no one to show for it.
More HoloHuxster B/S.....like all the rest that they parrot from their Holohuxsters handlers.

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Old 1st August 2016, 10:30 AM   #379
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This link might illuminate some as to how and whether they might reply to the latest postings in this thread.

http://ccfiile.com/
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Old 1st August 2016, 12:02 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Prove to me forensically that 2 million people were shot by the E...
Were were they buried? Thats a lot of people there must be a trace of them somewhere.....but guess what? Poof no one to show for it.
More HoloHuxster B/S.....like all the rest that they parrot from their Holohuxsters handlers.

Jim Rizoli
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.


Multiple mass graves, often of considerable size, have been discovered in the years and decades since. I recommend you read "the Holocaust by Bullets" by Desbois.

Your claim that the number was 2 million is a totally inaccurate strawman that you know is crap.

Last but not least, your requests and their nature are ridiculous. History does not work that way, one does not request autopsies for Christians murdered by the Romans or for footage of Gladiator matches.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
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Old 1st August 2016, 12:08 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Prove to me forensically that 2 million people were shot by the E...
Were were they buried? Thats a lot of people there must be a trace of them somewhere.....but guess what? Poof no one to show for it.
More HoloHuxster B/S.....like all the rest that they parrot from their Holohuxsters handlers.

Jim Rizoli
There is a great deal of convergent evidence - that is, evidence from different kinds of sources - concerning the open-air shootings in the occupied Soviet Union. Among this evidence are indeed the results of forensic investigations, for example a recent survey of Holocaust killing sites; a map showing killing sites investigated by Yahad-in Unum in recent years; this blog entry on photographic evidence of mass murder at Kerch; this description of findings at Ponary in Lithuania; photographic evidence concerning Ponary; and various blog pieces here, here, here, here, and here by Roberto Muehlenkamp;

Those interested in understanding what happened in the past properly do not restrict themselves to one kind of evidence but look at the range of evidence available in order to draw conclusions. The physical investigations align with what we discover in other sources about these murders in the East.

Perhaps you will explain to us which of these killing sites you've invesitaged in detail and summarize for us what you've found and the problems with the evidence.
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Old 1st August 2016, 12:19 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by LemmyCaution View Post
Perhaps you will explain to us which of these killing sites you've invesitaged in detail and summarize for us what you've found and the problems with the evidence.
Edited by zooterkin:  <SNIP>
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Please refer to the Membership Agreement you signed up to.

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Old 1st August 2016, 12:21 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Sounds good now prove it.....lots of talk but NO forensics proof.
Ah, yet another poster who thinks that they can show that the holocaust didn't happen through sheer ignorance.
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Old 1st August 2016, 12:55 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Ashes don't prove how people were killed.
Shot, gassed, starved to death, killed by diseases allowed to run rampant in the camps, killed by lethal injection, beaten to death... Dead is dead.

All those methods were used to decimate Jews and others, why do you deniers just constantly bleat the same party lines about the gas chambers?
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:30 PM   #385
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Well put, Mondial! I'm enjoying your discussion.
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:34 PM   #386
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Actually they haven't been discovered, these so-called mass graves. There have been alleged sites where a couple of bones or teeth were found, but NOTHING mass - except the Katyn Massacre in Poland, FIRST attributed to the Germans but later discovered, these were atrocities (one of many) from the Soviets. Another point. Because there is an alleged mass grave, doesn't confirm method of death, yet that's what we are told.

Like the 'pile of clothes' in the mausoleums they call holohoax museums - though there is no proof of the owners' demise, they trot out the pile of clothes with the accompanying placard of 'proven death by gassing'. We are supposed to believe it.
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:37 PM   #387
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Like I said lots of talk NO proof!
So some of you here are forensics specialist....you can look at a corpse from a picture and tell us how they died....pretty impressive!


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Old 1st August 2016, 02:39 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Dash80 View Post
Shot, gassed, starved to death, killed by diseases allowed to run rampant in the camps, killed by lethal injection, beaten to death... Dead is dead.

All those methods were used to decimate Jews and others, why do you deniers just constantly bleat the same party lines about the gas chambers?
Thanks for the update how about some forensic proof?

Jim Rizoli
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:40 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by DianeKayKing View Post
Actually they haven't been discovered, these so-called mass graves. There have been alleged sites where a couple of bones or teeth were found, but NOTHING mass - except the Katyn Massacre in Poland, FIRST attributed to the Germans but later discovered, these were atrocities (one of many) from the Soviets. Another point. Because there is an alleged mass grave, doesn't confirm method of death, yet that's what we are told.

Like the 'pile of clothes' in the mausoleums they call holohoax museums - though there is no proof of the owners' demise, they trot out the pile of clothes with the accompanying placard of 'proven death by gassing'. We are supposed to believe it.
Refute the material in the links I posted - a handwave and an empty phrase don't cut it. You are not supposed to believe anything - you are however expected to engage with the material and refer to it honestly and accurately. Show where the material in the links is incorrect.
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Old 1st August 2016, 02:41 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Like I said lots of talk NO proof!
So some of you here are forensics specialist....you can look at a corpse from a picture and tell us how they died....pretty impressive!


Jim Rizoli
Your method is to ignore that which doesn't fit your preconceptions?

And, again, it is the variety of evidence, including physical, that tells us what happened and how.
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Old 1st August 2016, 03:29 PM   #391
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I'm still waiting for proof.....
Not rhetoric...


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Old 1st August 2016, 03:32 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Thanks for the update how about some forensic proof?

Jim Rizoli
How about you do your own homework?
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Old 1st August 2016, 03:52 PM   #393
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
I'm still waiting for proof.....
Not rhetoric...


Jim Rizoli
I posted links to several lengthy, substantive discussions of physical evidence for open-air shootings of Jews in the occupied east. And you think it is rhetoric and are still waiting for something? It appears more like you're looking for ways not to answer (or perhaps even read) the proof you claim to be waiting for.
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Old 1st August 2016, 03:52 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
Thanks for the update how about some forensic proof?

Jim Rizoli
Please examine the links supplied by LemmyCaution, and read "Holocaust by Bullets" by Desbois. It was a read that I enjoyed.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:00 PM   #395
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Originally Posted by DianeKayKing View Post
Actually they haven't been discovered, these so-called mass graves.
The Polish investigaating comissions directed at Chemno and Treblinka found remains of graves with ashes and charred bones. A Polish archaeological team found 33 mass graves at Belzec and a large number at Sobibor. And that is just what I can recall right now.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:02 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
I'm still waiting for proof.....
Not rhetoric...


Jim Rizoli
It has been supplied, in large, easily accessible doses. It is a question of your willingness, or, if we must consider it, capability, to examine what is presented.
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Old 1st August 2016, 04:26 PM   #397
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Ah yes the old tactics of 'demand and deny'.
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Old 1st August 2016, 08:15 PM   #398
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No offense guys but this site really sucks no one answers any questions you avoid any debate on the topic you don't show any facts of what you say pretty boring here.


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Old 1st August 2016, 09:51 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
No offense guys but this site really sucks no one answers any questions you avoid any debate on the topic you don't show any facts of what you say pretty boring here.


JR
This seems untrue. As far as I can tell links were posted to exactly the evidence you asked for, and then you just kept asking, without offering any reason the evidence did not satisfy your points.

Why do you avoid debating the evidence offered or making direct reference to it?
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Old 1st August 2016, 10:06 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by JimRizoli View Post
No offense guys but this site really sucks no one answers any questions you avoid any debate on the topic you don't show any facts of what you say pretty boring here.
On the contrary, every denialist assertion has been thoroughly demolished here with well grounded historical references.
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