General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[John Nowak]

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

If I recall correctly, depending on the historical scholarly research source looked at, the estimated number killed ranges from a low of 4.8 million to a high of 5.7 million.

IIRC, the earliest back-of-an-envelope lowball estimate came up with a figure of 5.5 million. Under those circumstances, rounding up to 6 is entirely legitimate. Later estimates would vary, naturally enough.

Thing is, I can't recall where this came up. John Toland's biography of Hitler?

[Blue Mountain]

Also check out nizkor.org at http://www.nizkor.org. They've accumulated and archived a lot of material, and have extensive resources on both the Holocaust and Holocaust denial.

Here's hoping your son realizes he's been fed a bunch of lies by the denialists, and learns a few things about conspiratorial thinking and skepticism.

[Corsair 115]

Originally Posted by RogueKitten

We went through that whole "Hitler didn't order the Jews killed" line already and I shut that down.

One point of logic you may want to employ to forestall any Holocaust denial tendency in your son is this:

The country with the most to gain by demonstrating the Holocaust didn't happen is Germany. In which case, shouldn't German citizens and historians be the first to present evidence disproving the Holocaust? Their country would restore its reputation and remove a historical black mark against itself. So why then isn't that happening?


In one of the older Holocaust denial threads in the Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories section, poster Nick Terry did masterful work in demolishing the claims of Holocaust deniers, by citing many historical references, including works by German researchers and historians. It may be worth going through the older threads and searching for his posts. (Not sure if he's active here anymore.)

[grmcdorman]

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

In one of the older Holocaust denial threads in the Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories section, poster Nick Terry did masterful work in demolishing the claims of Holocaust deniers, by citing many historical references, including works by German researchers and historians. It may be worth going through the older threads and searching for his posts. (Not sure if he's active here anymore.)

The thread's still active, actually, and Nick Terry himself is indeed still active - as well as at least one of our resident holocaust deniers.

See http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=279600 for the latest clone of the thread (part III, in fact). A lot of the holocaust denialism is destroyed in those threads.

[KDLarsen]

As for where the actual numbers come from, the Korherr Report and the Höfle Telegram are usually good places to start. The former details the overall dwindling number of jews in Europe (Soviet Union excluded), and the latter details the number of jews killed in the Aktion Reinhard camps in Poland in 1942.

[shemp]

The exact numbers can never be determined and don't really matter once you get above an arbitrary number. It's like asking, "How many people does one have to kill to be a serial killer?" We can argue how many people Luis Garavito killed (somewhere from 140-300+), but no matter what number we argue, he's still a serial killer. This is something that Holocaust deniers willfully and knowingly ignore.

[Magrat]

Awesome info, thanks guys!

[ComfySlippers]

Originally Posted by Craig4

I'd recommend Robert Jay Lifton's "The Nazi Doctors". He goes into excruciating detail of the selection process from the point of view of the doctors and medical staff carrying it out.

Originally Posted by RogueKitten

Does it cover the record keeping?

I think I've read that. Check my Kindle books.

ETA: no, it was "Doctors from Hell".

If you check my latest additions you'll see "Debunking Holocaust Deniers".
I haven't started it yet but I think it was free, as were several of my new additions.

Don't read that "Free" one about Auschwitz you mentioned to me, it's a friggin' advert for vitamins.

[Kyoon]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.

Thanks.

[Kyoon]

Originally Posted by Kyoon

I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Note: never broadcasted again, after the premiere in 2000.

[Kyoon]

Originally Posted by ddt

Guido Knopp is the "house historian" of ZDF, the second German public TV channel, and has made a string of documentaries, and accompanying books, on the Third Reich.

Guido Knopp is behind ALL 20 History TV documentaries with the highest audience in Germany, either as Director, Producer, Writer or Production Manager.

Beginning with his job at German State Television that allowed Guido Knopp access to historical footage that was unpublished all the way to the end times constellation that made possible for him to continue his work for over 10 years, the result was documentaries that:

- included archived footage that was kept secret until then, and often was never included again in other films after.

- are essential to understand the true story of World War I, World War II, the Holocaust of the Jews, how nuclear holocaust was postponed and the beginning of World War III.

In other words: his documentaries are key pieces in the picture that surfaces from the End Times puzzle.

[ComfySlippers]

Originally Posted by Kyoon

Note: never broadcasted again, after the premiere in 2000.

Lots of things are never rebroadcast. Especially documentaries.
The book's still there, as is the documentary.
Or are we talking about something different?

[tinribmancer]

Originally Posted by Kyoon

Guido Knopp is behind ALL 20 History TV documentaries with the highest audience in Germany, either as Director, Producer, Writer or Production Manager.

Beginning with his job at German State Television that allowed Guido Knopp access to historical footage that was unpublished all the way to the end times constellation that made possible for him to continue his work for over 10 years, the result was documentaries that:

- included archived footage that was kept secret until then, and often was never included again in other films after.

- are essential to understand the true story of World War I, World War II, the Holocaust of the Jews, how nuclear holocaust was postponed and the beginning of World War III.

In other words: his documentaries are key pieces in the picture that surfaces from the End Times puzzle.

Which only exists in Twooferland.

[Magrat]

Originally Posted by ComfySlippers

I think I've read that. Check my Kindle books.

ETA: no, it was "Doctors from Hell".

If you check my latest additions you'll see "Debunking Holocaust Deniers".
I haven't started it yet but I think it was free, as were several of my new additions.

Don't read that "Free" one about Auschwitz you mentioned to me, it's a friggin' advert for vitamins.

I will check your list, and really? Vitamins? How'd they play that angle?

[Ranb]

Check out this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCERa40KP64 NOVA Holocaust on Trial 2000

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I watched it years ago and am reminded of the description (at 43:00 in the video) of how the crematoria operated anytime I get a flame-up on a grill while making hamburgers.

Ranb

[Magrat]

Originally Posted by Ranb

Check out this; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCERa40KP64 NOVA Holocaust on Trial 2000

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

I watched it years ago and am reminded of the description (at 43:00 in the video) of how the crematoria operated anytime I get a flame-up on a grill while making hamburgers.

Ranb

but thank you!

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Kyoon

I suggest the film "Holocaust", a series of 6 documentaries from 2000 by historian Guido Knopp.

Guido Knopp never made a documentary called "Holocaust".
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0461368/

[Kyoon]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard

Guido Knopp never made a documentary called "Holocaust".
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0461368/

Yes, he did.
A TV documentary series, consisting of six parts of 45 minutes each.

IMDB has it listed as "Hitler's Holocaust" (USA)
... aka "Holokaust" (2000) TV Series (producer)

[Craig4]

Originally Posted by zooterkin

I suggest you read the post you replied to again. I suspect you have misread it, unless you believe the Holocaust didn't happen.

Right, well never mind, must have been drunk.

[Hercules56]

I have several questions for Holocaust deniers:

1. We have records showing around 800,000 Jews were shipped to Treblinka from around central Europe. There are no records of even 50,000 Jews being shipped out of Treblinka.

So where did the Jews go?

2. We know there were between 2.8 and 3.3 million Jews in Poland in 1938. We know after WW2, there were maybe 300,000 left. We know that at most, only around 250,000 fled east into the USSR.

So where are the missing Jews?

3. Based on preWW2 and postWW2 census data, millions of Jews are missing from Europe. We know they didn't go to Israel, the USA, Canada, etc, as we have exact migration figures for those nations and the numbers just don't add up.

So where are the missing millions?

These are direct questions and I expect direct answers with logical or rational theories that can be supported by actual documented evidence.

[shemp]

It's simple: ever since 1945, census officials have left millions of Jews off the records. There are over 5,000,000 more Jews in Europe than the official records show. And millions more have been taken away by UFOs!

See how easy it is?

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

I have several questions for Holocaust deniers:

This forum has a dedicated anti-holocaust denial thread.
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=279600

In essence, there simply are not many holocaust deniers left and you are unlikely to get a response. There was a spurt of growth for deniers as the internet arose, but that spurt has fizzled again. I think that the forensic examination of Treblinka II in 2014 simply left them nowhere to go as the evidence supporting the conventional view on history is overwhelming.

However that's not the current problem. The devoted "hard core" deniers have died off. The new problem is the idiots who believe in multiple "woo" themes simultaneously. They will simply justify their belief in, say a "government conspiracy to hide UFOs" by saying "Well, you know the holocaust didn't happen and we never landed on the moon" and that's the most they ever actually thought about the holocaust or moon landings.

The Rense Organisation is a neo-nazi website that carries David Duke's radio show about how much David Duke loves America. ( David Duke lives in Austria). The Rense Organisation promotes a mixture of holocaust denial and UFOs/Aliens/Remote viewing/Alien lizard people control the world/Jewish Illuminati bankers control the world....and so on. Their aim is to simply get young idiots to add holocaust denial to their "badges of honour" as wooists.

Example of Rense Organisation Neo-Nazi Propaganda
http://www.rense.com/general50/itle.htm

It is my personal opinion that, as at today, it is a waste of time allocating resources to fight hard core holocaust deniers, as they have died out. The better aim is let the general education arms of the Skeptic Society and JREF to promote critical thinking to the general public and simply fight poor logic in the general community.

[Hercules56]

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

Got a link?

Thanks.

[A'isha]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

Got a link?

Thanks.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5062114.html

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Forensic study of Treblinka 2?

http://blogs.staffs.ac.uk/archaeolog...mination-camp/

Dr Coll's final paper is not available yet. However as you can see the basic information is already available from Staffordshire University.

The first academic forensic investigation into Treblinka II was in 1946, headed by Justice Łukaszkiewicz. He found the human body ash and primary evidence.

The key discovery by Dr Colls in 2014 was identifying the empty mass graves capable of holding the bodies originally buried, that were dug up and cremated in Sonderaktion 1005. (This was the action to hide German war crimes when Germany started losing the war)

If you need more info, ask the anti-holocaust denial team at the Skeptic Society forum. There are a couple of real historians there, who are experts on this topic.
http://www.skepticforum.com/viewforum.php?f=39

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

We know there were between 2.8 and 3.3 million Jews in Poland in 1938. We know after WW2, there were maybe 300,000 left.

Before the war, there were 50,000 Jews in Warsaw. After the war, there were 50.

[Hans]

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Hans

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

Yes. The IPIS, a public propaganda arm of Ahmadinejad Iranian government promoted and paid for the Tehran holocaust denial conferences in the last decade.

The trick was to inform the anti-Iranian nationalists so as to reduce donations to holocaust deniers who were proxy workers for Iran. This certainly reduced US donations to David Duke, who attended.

We had two Australian idiots at the conference and thus the connection to Australia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intern..._the_Holocaust

http://www.affarinternazionali.it/Do...0191.01.07.pdf

[Mondial]

Originally Posted by Corsair 115

The country with the most to gain by demonstrating the Holocaust didn't happen is Germany. In which case, shouldn't German citizens and historians be the first to present evidence disproving the Holocaust? Their country would restore its reputation and remove a historical black mark against itself. So why then isn't that happening?

The post 1945 German government and constitution had to toe the line of the Allied occupation forces. Therefore they have to follow the official propaganda version when it comes to World War 2 and the holocaust. And then there is the law against holocaust revisionism in Germany -
www.codoh.com/library/document/3568/
- in case any individual politician feels like challenging the status quo. But this hasn't stopped others from speaking out -
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10448

[Mondial]

Elie Wiesel who was probably the most famous holocaust survivor in the world has died aged 87. He was a fraud and a pathological liar -
www.eliewieseltattoo.com
http://codoh.com/library/document/858/
https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10475

[A'isha]

I deliberately didn't post anything about Wiesel's death when it happened because I knew the deniers here would immediately attempt to smear their feces all over it.

[EtienneSC]

Originally Posted by A'isha

I deliberately didn't post anything about Wiesel's death when it happened because I knew the deniers here would immediately attempt to smear their feces all over it.

The main revisionist work on Wiesel is Warren B Routledge's book Holocaust High Priest: Elie Wiesel, "Night", the Memory Cult and the Rise of Revisionism (2015):
http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?author_id=23
It is also available on Amazon. The main non-revisionist works on him (Michael Berenbaum, Frederick Downing) seem to focus on theology and literary criticism.

[EtienneSC]

Originally Posted by A'isha

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5062114.html

There is a revisionist take-down of the Sturdy Colls investigation here:
https://youtu.be/6D2HhLHed7U
As Matthew Ellard notes, Sturdy Colls main work has not yet been published. The main public findings to date seem to be the location of buildings (shower rooms or gas chambers).

[EtienneSC]

Originally Posted by Hans

Matthew while most of the notorious western deniers have died off. Non English speaking denial seems quite wide spread in the Muslim world

There are numerous revisionists in the English-speaking world, mostly based on the USA, despite the lack of academic sponsorship for their work. The works of many European revisionists are also available in English through the holocaust handbooks series.

One important link to the Muslim world was the French revisionist Roger Garaudy, a major French philosopher who converted to Islam and wrote against fundamentalism (l'intégrisme):
http://rogergaraudy.blogspot.co.uk/p/bibliographie.html
His reputation was trashed in France in the 1990s because of his revisionism. This was unfortunate as he was a significant link between the West and Islam at a time of concern about political islam - one of many distorting effects on culture of the cult of the holocaust.

[Dash80]

Originally Posted by EtienneSC

There is a revisionist take-down of the Sturdy Colls investigation here:
https://youtu.be/6D2HhLHed7U
As Matthew Ellard notes, Sturdy Colls main work has not yet been published. The main public findings to date seem to be the location of buildings (shower rooms or gas chambers).

Take-down? LOL.

Eyewitnesses, including the SS and Ukrainians who operated them, stated there were gas chambers. Your YouTube revisionist has "taken down" nothing.

Also... I love the irony of you pointing out the study is not yet fully published. Remind us when Krege published his Treblinka "work" again?

[EtienneSC]

Originally Posted by Dash80

Eyewitnesses, including the SS and Ukrainians who operated them, stated there were gas chambers. Your YouTube revisionist has "taken down" nothing.

Eye-witness testimony is unreliable where uncorroborated, e.g. the reports of "steam chambers" and "electric current" (Nuremberg Document PS-3311). http://www.cwporter.com/textfile1.htm
If we doubt those, why should we accept another version of the same kind? Who are these witnesses by the way - Kurt Gerstein for the SS?

Originally Posted by Dash80

Also... I love the irony of you pointing out the study is not yet fully published. Remind us when Krege published his Treblinka "work" again?

Fair point. There was a brief report:
"'Vernichtungslager' Treblinka: archaelogisch betrachtet," by Ing. Richard Krege, in Vierteljarhreshefte für freie Geschichtsforschung, June 2000 [4. Jg., Heft 1], pp. 62-64.
Obviously it would be better if both were published. However, the point of scientific work is that it can be reproduced. We are still waiting.

[Dash80]

Originally Posted by EtienneSC

Eye-witness testimony is unreliable where uncorroborated, e.g. the reports of "steam chambers" and "electric current" (Nuremberg Document PS-3311). http://www.cwporter.com/textfile1.htm
If we doubt those, why should we accept another version of the same kind? Who are these witnesses by the way - Kurt Gerstein for the SS?

You probably know just as well as anyone that the "steam" chamber reports came from observers OUTSIDE the camps. The reports of the Polish underground speculated about the method of killing, but when all is said and done... show there was mass murder going on.

Nice dodge by the way. Dozens of SS men served at the Reinhard camps, the majority of them from the Euthanasia programme.

Try Franz Stangl, who commanded both Sobibor and Treblinka.

Or Heinrich Matthes, who was in charge of the part of the camp where the chambers were.

Or Franz Suchomel.

If you really want to stick with the Gerstein theme, how about Wilhelm Pfannenstiel?

[Degeneve]

Originally Posted by EtienneSC

One important link to the Muslim world was the French revisionist Roger Garaudy, a major French philosopher who converted to Islam and wrote against fundamentalism (l'intégrisme):

As a matter of fact Garaudy has never been considered as a "major French philosopher". And he was also not an historian.

His book "The Founding Myths of Modern Israel" is mainly a copy/paste of the existing denialists books, mainly those of Faurisson.

When he was a communst he was denying the existence of the goulag and when he became a muslim (after having been christian in between) he started to deny the holocaust. A men of great intellectual and moral probity...

[KDLarsen]

Originally Posted by Dash80

Nice dodge by the way. Dozens of SS men served at the Reinhard camps, the majority of them from the Euthanasia programme.

Try Franz Stangl, who commanded both Sobibor and Treblinka.

Or Heinrich Matthes, who was in charge of the part of the camp where the chambers were.

Or Franz Suchomel.

If you really want to stick with the Gerstein theme, how about Wilhelm Pfannenstiel?

Especially Suchomel, given that his eyewitness report is readily available in an easy-to-consume manner, courtesy of the secret recording from the Shoah film.

[A'isha]

Originally Posted by Dash80

You probably know just as well as anyone that the "steam" chamber reports came from observers OUTSIDE the camps. The reports of the Polish underground speculated about the method of killing, but when all is said and done... show there was mass murder going on.

What else do you expect from someone who cites Carlos Porter?