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Old 10th April 2015, 08:17 AM   #41
Giordano
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How about ABEs- After Birth Experiences? I have had a lot of these. Many of them quite interesting. And I have photos, too!
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Old 10th April 2015, 08:19 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
To have an OBE, to see the tunnel, then the light, then the words: 'it's not your time yet' assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the dying brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.
Two minutes of Googling gave me this paper from 1994, which reports that in various studies:
  • Indians report seeing messengers from Yama, and no out-of-body experiences.
  • Melanesians report sorcerers, but no tunnels.
  • Native Americans report no tunnels; they get eagles or moose.
  • Medieval Europeans reported tunnels, but no lights or deceased relatives.
  • Even contemporary Westerners don't always get the white light.
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Old 10th April 2015, 08:24 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Yes, but 'the light', 'the OBE', the tunnel and the lifereview are very common.
And the explanation for it is very common, in fact a normal process apaprently. Did you bother read it up ?
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Old 10th April 2015, 10:16 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I disagree here. Most NDE's are very specific. The OBE, the tunnel, the light, the words: it's not your time yet. That's very specific.
Show us the research that shows that this specific experience is experienced by "most".

The words "it is not your time yet" is probably a cultural thing: these people know what is expected for an NDE will tend to remember exactly that.
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Old 10th April 2015, 03:33 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by steenkh View Post
The words "it is not your time yet" is probably a cultural thing: these people know what is expected for an NDE will tend to remember exactly that.
I would not be surprised if many people in our culture "hear" those words just before they actually do die. I don't think I'll be surprised if I do. Even if I am capable of that at that time.
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Old 10th April 2015, 08:41 PM   #46
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"More evidence that near death experiences are related to brain activity, not the supernatural"

http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/04/more...-supernatural/
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Old 10th April 2015, 10:45 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I don't know. That can be the case, but I'm not convinced.
I recommand you to listen to the testimonies of many NDE'ers on Youtube.
You and I have dramatically different ideas about what constitutes evidence. Individual testimonies on YouTube is not evidence. They are not even close to evidence. There are myriad reasons why YouTubers who never had a NDE might claim to have had one.
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Old 11th April 2015, 12:00 AM   #48
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No one has yet read any of the secret messages in actual experiments.

AWARE Results Finally Published – No Evidence of NDE
Quote:
This is a prospective study of cardiac arrest patients to not only describe their NDEs when they occur, but to conduct a large prospective test looking for objective evidence of conscious awareness during resuscitation. The lead researcher, Sam Parnia, is a believer in NDEs, but designed a study theoretically capable of finding objective evidence.
The multi-center study involved placing an image in a location that was hidden from normal view but could be viewed by a person floating above their body during an NDE. This could be a way to objectively differentiate between the two leading hypotheses. Parnia and others believe that reports of NDEs represent actual awareness during cardiac arrest when the brain is not functioning. This, of course, would be compelling evidence for cognition separate from brain function. ...
... Well that’s disappointing. However, apparently there were no cases of cardiac arrest patients who were able to see, remember, and report the hidden images. Collecting data was more difficult than they hoped, but the results they did get were negative.
Sadly, after the study, the authors published cherry picked results ignoring the most important (or only real) evidence.
Quote:
Failing to obtain any actual evidence that NDEs represent non-corporeal cognition, Parnia apparently decided to fall back on the old, let’s just report what people say and present that as if it were actual objective evidence.

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Old 11th April 2015, 07:11 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
"More evidence that near death experiences are related to brain activity, not the supernatural"

http://doubtfulnews.com/2015/04/more...-supernatural/
Well, obviously, that just proves that whatever supernatural force is responsible for NDEs in humans is also fond of rats. The rats, if they were revived and could speak, would all tell of a Great Cheese at the end of a maze. I mean, duuuhhhhh...
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Old 11th April 2015, 11:29 PM   #50
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I don't think it proves that the NDE is just a delusion. The brain activity in these experiments indicates the perception of something.
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Old 12th April 2015, 03:23 AM   #51
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Perhaps the perception of oxygen starvation?
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Old 12th April 2015, 03:25 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
I don't think it proves that the NDE is just a delusion. The brain activity in these experiments indicates the perception of something.
It's the perception of cerebral hypoxia (if that qualifies as a perception; perhaps 'experience' is more apt).

Neurons short of oxygen and/or overloaded with CO2 and other metabolic toxins, due to reduced blood flow, will fire spontaneously, particularly in the absence of significant sensory input.
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Old 12th April 2015, 09:58 AM   #53
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Delusion is an experience.
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Old 12th April 2015, 09:59 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
I don't know. That can be the case, but I'm not convinced.
The eyes have it.
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Old 12th April 2015, 10:17 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
When you are unconscious, you cannot report having a NDE.
A very perceptive comment! It's all post hoc — spoken in words which spring from the soil of culture, fruiting phrases sown deep in our minds by memory we had no will but to form.

To speak, perchance to Recall; Aye, there's the hubbub,
For in that sleep of near death, what memes may come,
When we haven't utterly shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us applause.

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Old 12th April 2015, 10:20 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Olowkow View Post
Why not a very elaborate jewel and precious metal encrusted bridge with lasers and flashing strobes or those super bright LED flashlights and a neon sign a thousand feet high flashing "HEAVEN"?
No, you silly billy. That's $cientology's Near Dearth Experience. It's what you see when you spend your very last cent, just before the Operating Thetans drag you off to the hole.
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Old 12th April 2015, 10:48 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
A very perceptive comment! It's all post hoc — spoken in words which spring from the soil of culture, fruiting phrases sown deep in our minds by memory we had no will but to form.

To speak, perchance to Recall; Aye, there's the hubbub,
For in that sleep of near death, what memes may come,
When we haven't utterly shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us applause.

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Old 17th April 2015, 10:56 PM   #58
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I'm curious about NDE's myself, always have been since I heard the story when I was a kid about my grandfather having one when the Spanish flu almost killed him back in 1919 or so.

So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.

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Old 17th April 2015, 11:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by BobR View Post
I'm curious about NDE's myself, always have been since I heard the story when I was a kid about my grandfather having one when the Spanish flu almost killed him back in 1919 or so.

So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.
Even if they did indeed flat line for a period there was brain activity before and after that period. There is no reason to assume any experiences they later relate occurred during the flatline period rather than before or after it. Claims of experiencing externally verifable occurrences during the flat line period never stand up to investigation, and experiments attempting to obtain objective evidence of such claims have had negative results.
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Old 18th April 2015, 12:01 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Other argument: these experiences are not chaotic at all,
You don't know that. Not all NDEs proceed according to your idealized model.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
what you expect from an injuried dying brain.
Who's this "you", kemosabe? Can you cite where the expectations of an injured, dying brain have been established?

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
A dying brain cannot produce such harmonious experiences full of meaning and very vividly.
Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
It's a contradicition.
Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
A good working brain can produce these beautiful experiences. But not a dying damaged brain.
Bald assertion with no basis whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
From a dying brain you expect chaotic hallucinations.
Again with the "you" stuff. Who is "you? Can I suggest that you either speak for yourself or cite sources for more general assertions.

In short, you post was simply vacuous.
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Old 18th April 2015, 03:05 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by BobR View Post
So, what's the skeptical explanation for the fact that people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time? Seems to me it's hard to explain this phenomenon in terms of anomalous brain activity when there isn't any such activity going on.
This is brain activity measured via EEG, a summation of millions or billions of neurons firing in synchrony. Not detecting neural activity via EEG doesn't necessarily mean there's no neural activity, it may mean it's too disorganised (insufficiently synchronous) to sum above background noise, or that it's too weak to be detected, or it's too deep (e.g. the cortex is not significantly active). It's conceivable that auditory input could be processed by the deep brain while the cortex is minimally active, and recalled later.

Also, as Pixel42 says, it's difficult to establish the precise temporal correspondence between reported experiences and brain activity. All NDEs are retrospective. For 'traditional' NDEs involving tunnels, lights, meeting relatives, etc., the activity that generates the recalled experience may occur before the brain becomes incapable of it (assuming it does become so incapable) as hypoxia set in, or afterwards, as the brain recovers (as the blood supply is restored, perhaps analogously to the 'pins & needles' of peripheral sensory nerves).

You say, "people who have these often do so when their brain wave activity has flatlined, especially those who describe externally verifiable occurrences during that time". I'd like to see your evidence for this - how many? how often? which descriptions of external events have really been verified? perhaps some links to examples?

I do wonder in how many emergency situations of this kind - where there may be a great deal of confusion, or well-drilled staff are busy focusing on their tasks - a sufficiently precise temporal record of events around the patient is kept to validate reports of conversation, etc., and correlate them with specific times of minimal brain activity. The AWARE study was specifically set up to investigate this in the cardiac emergency/resuscitation rooms of 25 major medical centers, and found only 2% reports of visual awareness during cardiac arrest, and just one 'verifiable period of conscious awareness during which time cerebral function was not expected' (though this expectation was based on the assumption that cerebral function is 'ordinarily absent or at best severely impaired' during cardiac arrest, and wasn't supported with EEG measurement).
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Old 19th April 2015, 04:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
You and I have dramatically different ideas about what constitutes evidence. Individual testimonies on YouTube is not evidence. They are not even close to evidence. There are myriad reasons why YouTubers who never had a NDE might claim to have had one.
That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.
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Old 19th April 2015, 05:14 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.
Hereby you admit it's not scientific; that it's fuzzy. Hereby you admit there's nothing to your ideas. So, what have you learned over the course of this thread?

Seems to me you have two choices:
1. Double-down and keep insisting that your "only evidence" is good enough.
2. Admit that NDEs happen in the mind, which is in the brain, which is the head, while it all faces peril and then returns to normal.
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Old 19th April 2015, 09:15 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case studies with interviews.
Maartenn, if the best you can do for evidence is the vague statistical noise of some other folks' experiences (no, let's don't rehash this, ok? You can go back to the previous page if you don't understand what I mean by that), then you're simply asking a question that's unanswerable by any rational test except one- your own experience. I understand that this is something you need deeply to believe; but you'll find out soon enough. Knowing now one way or the other won't change anything, will it? Just let it go, man- how can you enjoy the life you have now when you're so wrapped up in the death you must have in its own time?
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Old 19th April 2015, 10:29 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
That's the only evidence we have.

Then we have no good evidence.
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:18 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible. Eye witness testimony anecdotes is the only thing you have to investigate this. Case anecdote studies with interviews.
Corrections by Daylightstar

There you go, much better.
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Old 19th April 2015, 11:39 AM   #67
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There's nothing new about this theory.

The brain structure and the evolved responses to near-death experiences would be in all people for natural reasons. Any similarity in hallucination and dissociation would be easily explained by this and not proof of the afterlife. This is claimed as good evidence for the afterlife precisely because it is so ambiguous and rejects attempts for legitimate research, not because it is an explanation that rules out all natural explanations...
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Old 19th April 2015, 02:08 PM   #68
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The remarkable point about these experiences is that each area of the brain processes multiple functions and that "conscious” states such as seeing, thinking, feelings and emotions are mediated in many areas at the same time. What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people (OBE, Seeing the tunnel, experiencing feelings of piece, going through the tunnel (motor cortex) seeing the light (occipital lobs), lifereview (long-term memory), empathie during lifereview (mirrorneurons) etc). This exact same pattern and the exact same sequence of parts of the brain are fyring in a dying person? What are the chances? Very low, in my opinion.
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Old 19th April 2015, 02:23 PM   #69
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I'm not saying he is a liar just an outlier. hehe. As in, the vast consensus is that in cases where zero brain activity is claimed, even if it were accepted that there was low brain activity for a time, the time in between a coma and waking is enough time for these dreams. All of the debunkings of the claims of Eben Alexander go into detail about this.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/this-must-be-heaven

As you'll see, Alexander's claims all rely on how his brain had zero activity, and these claims are all stupid, and delusional.

For example...

Quote:
This poetic interpretation of his experience is not supported by evidence of any kind. As you correctly point out, coma does not equate to “inactivation of the cerebral cortex” or “higher-order brain functions totally offline” or “neurons of [my] cortex stunned into complete inactivity”. These describe brain death, a one hundred percent lethal condition. There are many excellent scholarly articles that discuss the definitions of coma. (For example: 1 & 2)

We are not privy to his EEG records, but high alpha activity is common in coma. Also common is “flat” EEG. The EEG can appear flat even in the presence of high activity, when that activity is not synchronous. For example, the EEG flattens in regions involved in direct task processing. This phenomenon is known as event-related desynchronization (hundreds of references).
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Old 19th April 2015, 02:28 PM   #70
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Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?
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If the time interval of one second is everywhere the same for you, wherever you are in the universe, and you follow a straight path (in a curved spacetime) to you, your clock and your local idea of a straight path will determine what you will observe as being curved or expanded space outthere.

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Old 19th April 2015, 02:29 PM   #71
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An oct '14 article on ur buddy Parnia...

http://www.skeptic.com/insight/scien...-edge-of-life/

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Old 19th April 2015, 02:31 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Joey, I chanced my post, sorry. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?
The phenomenon isn't exactly the same. There are similarities, but there aren't any that are always the same in every case, it's a grouping of reports. It's not exact in any way. In another thread you are trying to teach me about irreducible complexity, and you're making the same mistake here. Something appearing to be amazing and "too much of a coincidence" doesn't preclude a naturalistic explanation.
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Old 19th April 2015, 04:30 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?
What happens when a car runs low on oil? It overheats. Friction on bearings, pistons, etc. increases. The metal expands. Continued operation eventually causes the engine to seize and DIE.

Doesn't matter what make and model of car. Diesel or gasoline. Manufactured in Japan, Russia, Sweden, etc. Hot weather or cold. In the northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere.

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What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering events in all these patiens cars in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?
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Old 19th April 2015, 05:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?
Man, this takes argument from incredulity to a whole new level of silly. Why do you find it so hard to believe that so many of what you yourself admit are basically the same brain undergoing the same process might, in some cases, have the same experience?
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:04 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Joey, I chanced my previous post, sorry for that. Ok. But what do you think about the fact that a certain sequence of networks must fyer in the brain to construct this OBE and NDE.
And in all these brains of dying people, the same procedure of fyering neuronetworks is active. What are the chances?

We are talking about the occipital lobs, the frontal lobs (interpretation), long term memory (livereview), deep feelings of piece, mirrorneurons for empathy etc.

What are the chances that this sequence of neurons are fyering in all these patiens in (almost) the same ordre and their interpretation is almost equal?
The chances are excellent. Just as they are that multiple women will describe the experience of childbirth in a similar way.

When the same thing happens to a similar organ (brain, uterus, whatever), people tend to experience the same types of things. In fact, either explanation for NDEs relies on this.

No matter if the experience is generated by a lack of oxygen or contact with another realm, you are relying on similar causes to produce similar experiences and similar reports. Look elsewhere for a sense of mystery. The similarity of reports tells you nothing important.
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Old 19th April 2015, 07:58 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
The chances are excellent. Just as they are that multiple women will describe the experience of childbirth in a similar way.
Indeed, they are called "Near Birth Experiences"
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Old 20th April 2015, 03:54 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Dessi View Post
Indeed, they are called "Near Birth Experiences"
I (as a male) had one of those about 9 months before the kidlet popped out. Is that "near" enough?
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Old 20th April 2015, 04:17 AM   #78
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I have a new argument pro BSEs:

According to current neuroscience many parts of the brain are involved in the experience of the bed spinning, the wobbling, the nauseus feeling, the words 'Make it stop. I'm going to throw up' etcetera. All after a heavy night on the booze before crashing on the bed.

The verbal cortex, the occipital lobes, the inner ear etc. All must be involved.

Chances are low that the sequence of electric activity in the brain of hundreds of people are almost exactly the same in such a way that they have the same sort of experiences.

To have a BSE, to feel the bed, indeed the whole room wildly spinning, assumes a certain patern of electric activity in the brain.
It must be a big coincidence that the intoxicated brains of all these people are functioning so well that they have the same sequence and patern of electric activity.

It's also about the ontological status of 'the wildly gyrating bed' when many people have the same experience, independent from each other.
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Old 20th April 2015, 04:37 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
That's the only evidence we have. You cannot go and measure the tunnel or the light with your instruments. Impossible.
Actually, we can.

Quote:
Eye witness testimony is the only thing you have to investigate this.
Oh, and you know what those testimonies tell us ? That oxygen-deprived brains produce these experiences, giving us one possible explanation for NDEs that doesn't involve magical fairies.
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Old 20th April 2015, 04:39 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people
Pretty good, actually, since our brains all work in pretty much the same way.

Your argument is one of incredulity, used to support beliefs you already have.
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