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Old 20th June 2015, 08:31 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Selective bias. The Gorilla experiment = science. When you don't accept science when you don't like it = not really good critical thinking.
That would be an irrational misrepresentation of your actual position, which is:
Gorilla experiment = support for OOB.

When you assign your belief to scientific experiments = not really good critical thinking.
A flaw which you abundantly demonstrate again and again and again.
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Old 26th June 2015, 02:49 AM   #162
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double
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spacetime exists 'outthere'. It's all events together.
We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

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Old 26th June 2015, 04:06 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
double
Has this, in your opinion, some meaning?
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Old 26th June 2015, 04:33 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Has this, in your opinion, some meaning?
He edited a repeated post that's also in his new thread on the tired old subject.

Come on over for the rumble: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post10731391
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Old 26th June 2015, 09:20 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
He edited a repeated post that's also in his new thread on the tired old subject.

Come on over for the rumble: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...1#post10731391
Which now has been merged with the existing Maartenn100 thread. Excellent choice
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Old 26th June 2015, 04:47 PM   #166
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Every moment of life is a near death experience.
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Old 27th June 2015, 07:46 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The remarkable point about these experiences is that each area of the brain processes multiple functions and that "conscious” states such as seeing, thinking, feelings and emotions are mediated in many areas at the same time. What are the chances that the same sequence of networks are active in brains of dying many people (OBE, Seeing the tunnel, experiencing feelings of piece, going through the tunnel (motor cortex) seeing the light (occipital lobs), lifereview (long-term memory), empathie during lifereview (mirrorneurons) etc). This exact same pattern and the exact same sequence of parts of the brain are fyring in a dying person? What are the chances? Very low, in my opinion.
What kind of throw is an occipital lob? I know occipital and I know lob, but I have no idea what the connection you speak write of is...
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Old 27th June 2015, 07:51 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Please provide proof that a soul exists. Can I see a soul, weigh it, have gravity affect it, or some other sort of scientific test to show it exists?
Reminds me of iirc a Swedish experiment back in the sixties/early 70s where they supposedly put a dying person on a bed scale and supposedly noticed a tiny loss of mass when he died. Also iirc, it was said later it was most likely just the final expiration of breath.
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Old 27th June 2015, 07:53 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
I thought dead men tell no tales.
No interesting ones anyway!!!
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Old 27th June 2015, 08:03 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Scientists are willing to believe in multiversa, but when someone is talking about 'being an another dimension' (a near death experience), suddenly they don't believe in portals to other dimensions anymore. Because the people who were in other dimensions are no scientists. And because nature forbids scientists to go their with their intstruments.
Just believe in multiversa, and you understand this portal to another realm...
Multiverses are not the same thing as dimensions. Multiverses, if they exist at all may be infinite. Although I am not up on the latest, I believe science currently figures about eleven dimensions. Just to be helpful I will run a quick check (you could do this yourself I imagine). (37 seconds to find that) Ah, I am behind, as of this year they believe there may be an infinity of same!! so you were right on that. However, dimension and universe are still not the same thing.
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Old 27th June 2015, 08:09 PM   #171
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Multiverse?

Actually, only a few scientists have proposed a multiverse as a hypothesis to solve some problems in current physics. It is not the case, as is implied by saying "scientists are willing to believe in a multiverse", that most scientists believe in a multiverse.
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Old 27th June 2015, 08:11 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
An out of body experience (seeing from above) is 'existing in a parallel universe' f.e. Physicists who talk about parallel universes suddenly don't except the existence of it when people are talking about being in such a universe. That's not very consistent.
This, on the other hand is not claimed by any scientist. I could buy (though not accept it as correct) that the see-er might be on a different plane of existence intersecting ours. Note I said different plane of existence, not different universe, They are not the same thing (with no offense, you do like to conflate things a lot for some reason) and I have not heard physicists saying anything about different planes of existence - particularly since that is the realm of the scam things like astral projection/oob experiences.
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Old 27th June 2015, 08:16 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
Do you really think you can have knowledge about this? We stare in total darkness about this. We lose everything (when we die) when we get knowledge about this 'dimension' or whatever we want to call The Unknown or The Unseen. Do you think you can understand what's going on during an NDE? I can't understand it. Whatever brain we have, it's been given to us (by Nature) and it will be talken away from us (by Nature).

Skeptic Ginger, remember this: your life (and my life too) is not for eternity.

And whatever is beyond this life is hidden for our knowledge. No 'scientific' device can discover this. Scientific devices cannot go there. When we get the opportunity to meet this Light, we are defenseless and naked. No way to get knowledge when it is not been given to you. It reveals itself to us or not. That's not up to us.

We may not think that our science is holey and we are immortal with it. There are doors of knowledge which stay closed for our best tools of science.
More and more I am being forced to believe that all of this is headed to what others have mentioned much priorly: a proof/indicator of the existence of some form of god/heaven/afterlife. If it makes you feel better, fine for you, but please do not lay that on scientists or try to make others think that deluded way..
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Old 29th June 2015, 02:02 AM   #174
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One thing I do know. Some medication don't work the right way for people. So some body parts might work. Let take sound. If the victim hears voices even in a semi dream state . They could take that voice and paint a picture of there faces to it and use sound location. Your mom could be to the right of you and your dad could be to the left. Other family and friends could be around the bed. All you are doing in this Haze is hearing them talk and not even know it.

This could also be true with eyesight. They might not remember it but could view the room while in a dream state. You know your eyes are somewhat open and your mind might pick up the image of the room.

Same thing while someone in emergency room. Both in trauma and medicated and the affects are not quite what it should be. So they hear the people around them they see some of their faces they are touching different parts of the body and there pain in other parts. Your mind is in a haze. Where your mind dreams of it self above the body.

It just a few idea what really could be happening. It also dose not mean the person out of body.
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Old 29th June 2015, 02:05 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Atol View Post
This could also be true with eyesight. They might not remember it but could view the room while in a dream state. You know your eyes are somewhat open and your mind might pick up the image of the room.
That's a good observation.
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Old 1st July 2015, 03:38 PM   #176
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The brain does not need the eyes to be open. It builds a mental model all the time, even when wearing ear muffs and a blindfold the brain is generating a model of the 'self' and its surroundings. These models don't need to be 100% accurate to be useful, or convincing.

Visual imagery uses many of the same brain regions as vision itself. In addition, senses also 'cross over' into multi-modal or poly-sensory processing. So I can work out your spatial location, relative to me, from your voice, or where on my body you touch me. None of this requires vision, but the resultant internal model may well have visuo-spatial attributes.

This is one reason why blind people can have NDEs and OBEs....its no problem for neuroscience.....
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Old 1st July 2015, 03:45 PM   #177
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In addition, the original question about how do we explain that people have exactly the same experience in NDEs is really easy to answer. They don't.

The question is loaded and logically flawed. People have experiences that may share some thematic similarity - but in over 20 years of studying this field, I've never met any patients who report EXACTLY the same thing, not even 80% the same.

We can explain why people have thematically similar experiences, in that we all have similar brains that work in similar ways and breakdown and hallucinate in a similar fashion. Some aspects of the NDE are higher-level hallucinations and these components are influenced by culture, and indeed history and so will vary.

Other aspects (like the tunnel) are more low-level and tend to be shared to some degree across cultures - because they reflect core structural and functional aspects of the brain.

The frustrating thing is that these answers have been with us for 20 years or more and yet, the woo's remain blissfully unaware......
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Old 1st July 2015, 03:52 PM   #178
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Have you noticed why NDEers report travelling down a tunnel and never travelling backwards through a tunnel? Why might this be and how does science explain this (let alone woo)?

Well, we typically move through the world in a forward manner and cells in the retina and early visual cortex have a biased weighting for visual information that moves from the centre of vision to the surround. Video driving games exploit this. When excessive cortical disinhibition takes place in the cortex, and spreads to motion areas, the phosphenes tend to move outwards - known as foveofugal drift (representing the optic flow of the world). However, this gives you the impression you're moving towards the light in central vision.

Foveopatal movement is the opposite.
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Old 1st July 2015, 03:57 PM   #179
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Finally, the argument of how do you explain the sequential 'order' of the NDE - well, its pointless and impossible because you're not researching dynamic perception in real time - you're researching a memory of an event that took place some time earlier and memory puts things into order. I think some have mentioned this earlier, but thought I'd reiterate the woo's often missed point that an NDE report is not a veridical account of the order of the different components.

Of course, I think it still needs to be explained why people 'tend' to experience things in a certain order, even if it is a false memory - but it must be acknowledged that just because an NDEer reports seeing dead relatives after travelling down a tunnel, does not mean that these hallucinatory percepts actually happened in that order.
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Old 1st July 2015, 07:57 PM   #180
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Thanks for that info Dr B. I have read it in other places, but it was a nice summary.
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Old 2nd July 2015, 05:29 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Thanks for that info Dr B. I have read it in other places, but it was a nice summary.
Thank you and you're very welcome

Great discussion here and well done to all of you for dealing with frustrating misrepresentations of science and theory in an informative and relatively cordial manner.
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Old 2nd July 2015, 05:34 AM   #182
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The notion of 'similar' experiences meaning its paranormal has always confused me as an argument.

Henrich Kluver noted, in the 1960s, the presence of thematically similar hallucinatory imagery in drug users. He termed these Stage 1 form constants, one of which is a tunnel / spiral form. They are all low-level geometric forms and patterns of certain types

Ronald Siegal(1970s / 1980s) applied the same logic to higher-level imagery - Stage 2 form constants - involving unreal perspectives, landscapes, figures, unreal worlds.

So these 'similar' components have been well documented in science for decades

More recently, Jack Cowan and Paul Bressloff have developed computer models of the visual cortex to seek to explain the existence of stage 1 form constants based on the Euclidean geometry of the visual cortex.

Point is - everyone in the field knows, that relatively similar experiences occur in hallucinations....this is not a mystery
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Old 2nd July 2015, 06:12 AM   #183
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Indeed, some of my own … ah … field experience has shown that to be true.
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Old 2nd July 2015, 11:48 AM   #184
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Old 4th July 2015, 02:05 PM   #185
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The testimony of a sceptical atheÔst scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VM9wcYvnCc
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We, minds, experience moment by moment the unfolding of events. But that's not how the phenomena exist outthere. In spacetime all events already exist simultaniously. Only the interaction with a mind, establishes the experience of time

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Old 4th July 2015, 03:19 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The testimony of a sceptical atheÔst scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VM9wcYvnCc
Argumentum ad Yoob Toob?

What does the 'sceptical atheist scientist" have to say about the issue?
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Old 4th July 2015, 03:36 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The testimony of a sceptical atheÔst scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VM9wcYvnCc
Nancy Rynes says about herself; science writer (0:19), doing sciency type stuff (0:28), somebody who is a scientist (1:16)
Yeah sure.

The YouTube video description says "She died."
But apparently she did not.

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Old 4th July 2015, 10:16 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Indeed, some of my own Ö ah Ö field experience has shown that to be true.
I would be obliged if you could send me any data you have collected, so I can compare with field experiences I intend to conduct in the near future.
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Old 4th July 2015, 11:43 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
The testimony of a sceptical atheÔst scientist:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VM9wcYvnCc
This confirms what I've been saying for a while - doing carefully designed experiments and having them peer reviewed only slows things and gets in the road of real scientific work.

Everybody knows that all the real science these days is published in Youtube. By people who aren't scientists...
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Old 5th July 2015, 01:25 AM   #190
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She also describes herself as 'blissfully agnostic'.
So not an atheist either.
This gets more credible by the minute.
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Old 5th July 2015, 03:49 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by Susheel View Post
I would be obliged if you could send me any data you have collected, so I can compare with field experiences I intend to conduct in the near future.
The data dripped down the fluorescent painted walls to the mystic minor scales of Pink Floyd. It flowed through my hands, heedless of cells or laws.

My best advice for you is to expect the veil to remain even as you are soaked with clarity and grasp the core of mystery now laid bare and coherent. Tomorrow you will be a stranger.
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Old 5th July 2015, 04:17 AM   #192
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Do you really think that NDE's or OBE's can be a subject for experiments? No, that's impossible. Science is limited. It cannot investigate everything. Consciousness and what people experience is a 'forbidden territory' for science.

People say that 'The NDE is more real then what we experience here in our daily lives'.

We are talking here about a parallel reality. A tptally different dimension. A reality wich cannot be discovered by science, because the scientific method is limited.
The neuroscientist can't go there with his instruments.
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Old 5th July 2015, 04:23 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
Originally Posted by Atol View Post
This could also be true with eyesight. They might not remember it but could view the room while in a dream state. You know your eyes are somewhat open and your mind might pick up the image of the room.
That's a good observation.
Actually, it very much is. I've seen people in comas or under deep anaesthesia where their eyes are partially open.
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Old 5th July 2015, 04:32 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Maartenn100 View Post
We are talking here about a parallel reality. A tptally different dimension. A reality wich cannot be discovered by science, because the scientific method is limited.

If something "cannot be discovered", then we have no means of differentiating it from a hallucination. We know that people have dreams and hallucinations; we have no evidence for this "parallel reality" of yours.

What would William of Ockham do?
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Old 5th July 2015, 04:48 AM   #195
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
What would William of Ockham do?
He'd travel by mule to the nearest monastery. There he'd find a copy of "Ye Gloaming Ground" and therein would enter another dimension.
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Old 5th July 2015, 06:02 AM   #196
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Originally Posted by Daylightstar View Post
Nancy Rynes says about herself; science writer (0:19), doing sciency type stuff (0:28), somebody who is a scientist (1:16)
Yeah sure.

The YouTube video description says "She died."
But apparently she did not.

Mighty lively corpse, seems they can do wonders with preservation these days.
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Old 5th July 2015, 06:03 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
The data dripped down the fluorescent painted walls to the mystic minor scales of Pink Floyd. It flowed through my hands, heedless of cells or laws.

My best advice for you is to expect the veil to remain even as you are soaked with clarity and grasp the core of mystery now laid bare and coherent. Tomorrow you will be a stranger.
Flashback?
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Old 5th July 2015, 06:07 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Flashback?
How did you know?
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Old 5th July 2015, 06:21 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by Donn View Post
How did you know?

Been on that trip a few times.
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Old 5th July 2015, 07:46 AM   #200
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Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
This confirms what I've been saying for a while - doing carefully designed experiments and having them peer reviewed only slows things and gets in the road of real scientific work doing sciency type stuff.

Everybody knows that all the real science these days is published in Youtube. By people who aren't scientists...
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