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Old 21st December 2016, 04:18 PM   #361
Stout
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Out of curiosity, has anybody actually looked at the FBI data being quoted by these journalist?
Yep. It's kind of useless as far as this thread with it's massive wave is concerned because the data is from 2015
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Old 21st December 2016, 04:18 PM   #362
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Well I'll be darned....

Mississippi church member charged in ‘Vote Trump’ arson
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Old 21st December 2016, 04:21 PM   #363
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Has this one been mentioned in this thread yet : https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.e0aa41120ac1 ?

Quote:
A University of Michigan student who told police that a stranger threatened to set her on fire if she didnít remove her hijab could soon face a felony charge for false reporting.

Police say there is no evidence proving the studentís report to authorities in November, when she claimed that an intoxicated man threatened her outside the Ann Arbor campus. The investigation will be turned over to the Washtenaw County prosecutorís office, which will decide if the student should be charged.
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Old 21st December 2016, 04:29 PM   #364
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In case anybody is interested, I enacted the labour. See attachments for the top level view of what the FBI data shows. They went from recording ethnicity as a separate category (which was just Hispanic and other), to including that in race a couple of years ago, so I've added them back in. For some reason there was no data for 2009. I'd have liked to include data for trans hate crime, but they only started collecting that as a separate category in 2013, so struggle to draw reliable conclusions from it. Having said that, it's gone from 25 per year to 75 cases in 3 years. If one was going to go crazy about percentage increases, I don't know why the don't pick the jump from 25 to 69 cases between 2013 and 2014 rather than the jump from 69-75 from 2014-2015.

I ask you though, does telling people that there was a 6 percent increase in hate crime last year give an accurate idea of the data? I don't see how they can legitimately tell the difference between that change and noise.. Based on this data, Trump is coming in off the back of a generationally low level of hate crime.
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Last edited by shuttlt; 21st December 2016 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 21st December 2016, 04:43 PM   #365
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yep. It's kind of useless as far as this thread with it's massive wave is concerned because the data is from 2015
I nearly didn't look further back either ;-)
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Old 21st December 2016, 07:21 PM   #366
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Out of curiosity, has anybody actually looked at the FBI data being quoted by these journalist?
Yes I did.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
In case anybody is interested, I enacted the labour. See attachments for the top level view of what the FBI data shows. They went from recording ethnicity as a separate category (which was just Hispanic and other), to including that in race a couple of years ago, so I've added them back in. For some reason there was no data for 2009. I'd have liked to include data for trans hate crime, but they only started collecting that as a separate category in 2013, so struggle to draw reliable conclusions from it. Having said that, it's gone from 25 per year to 75 cases in 3 years. If one was going to go crazy about percentage increases, I don't know why the don't pick the jump from 25 to 69 cases between 2013 and 2014 rather than the jump from 69-75 from 2014-2015.

I ask you though, does telling people that there was a 6 percent increase in hate crime last year give an accurate idea of the data? I don't see how they can legitimately tell the difference between that change and noise.. Based on this data, Trump is coming in off the back of a generationally low level of hate crime.
After many years of decreasing hate crimes (which speaks against the assertion that 'hate crimes have been increasing ever since hating became a crime' and the 'Obama has caused the worst racial divide in decades' BS), there was what the FBI considers a sharp increase, the fastest increase since 9/11, and this was fulled by that sharp raise in religious hate crimes against Muslims. Look at the religious line.

Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
I nearly didn't look further back either ;-)
What do you think it indicates? That after falling hate-crimes, they're back on the increase.

And it must absolutely have no connection to Trump's rhetoric, because, because. Anecdotally, the bigotry I heard today was a man suggesting violence against children who might be gay friendly 'to keep they from waving a rainbow flag with their pants down', followed by him literally saying, "It's about making America great again brother," to his friend. No connection to Trump at all.

But I must be faking that too. It's sad all these false reports are out there, not only because they're harmful to those they wrongly accuse, but also because it provides hand-wave fuel to those inclined to dismiss the entire idea.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 03:59 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
After many years of decreasing hate crimes (which speaks against the assertion that 'hate crimes have been increasing ever since hating became a crime' and the 'Obama has caused the worst racial divide in decades' BS), there was what the FBI considers a sharp increase, the fastest increase since 9/11
Is there a quote from the FBI describing the overall change as a sharp increase and the sharpest since 2001? I don't see anything in the New York Times piece quoting them saying that. In any case, there was a sharper increase in 2006. The numbers go up one year and down the next.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
and this was fulled by that sharp raise in religious hate crimes against Muslims. Look at the religious line.
I know, I've looked at all of this data. Sure, 2015 was a bad year for terrorism against the West. I'm less sure of the numbers, but it looks like the worst in a decade or more. Without the impact of Islamic terrorism, I'd expect the overall figure for hate crime would have fallen in 2015.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What do you think it indicates? That after falling hate-crimes, they're back on the increase.
Nonsense.
They fell in 1997, fell in 1998, rose in 1999, rose in 2000, rose in 2001, fell in 2002, rose in 2003, rose in 2004, fell in 2005, rose in 2006, fell in 2007, rose in 2008, there is no data for 2009 but by 2010 it had fallen, fell in 2011, fell in 2012, rose in 2013, fell in 2014, rose in 2015. The numbers bob up and down. The number for 2015 is less than the number for 2013.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
And it must absolutely have no connection to Trump's rhetoric, because, because.
I don't see any evidence for that in the FBI data. Was Trump's rhetoric responsible for the level of hate crime in 2013 being higher than it is now? 2015 looks to be an all time low for hate crime against Hispanics. Is that also because of Trump's rhetoric? 2015 and 2001 were both big years for Islamic terrorism against the West. What reason is there to look for another explanation? Is it your contention that if I look at other countries in the West who haven't been subject to Trump's malign influence, I won't see a surge in reporting in 2015.

Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Anecdotally, the bigotry I heard today was a man suggesting violence against children who might be gay friendly 'to keep they from waving a rainbow flag with their pants down', followed by him literally saying, "It's about making America great again brother," to his friend. No connection to Trump at all.

But I must be faking that too. It's sad all these false reports are out there, not only because they're harmful to those they wrongly accuse, but also because it provides hand-wave fuel to those inclined to dismiss the entire idea.
I think one can accept that many of the reports are true and also accept that there is no real evidence of widespread trends. For myself I've seen far more bile, hatred and verified cases of violence from the anti-Trump camp, than the Trump camp. Does this prove something terrible about the Left, and Hillary? Maybe there are real trends and at some point there will be data to put all of this into perspective?

Last edited by shuttlt; 22nd December 2016 at 04:03 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 04:49 AM   #368
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FWIW I've fixed the broken link for 2009. The data there changes nothing.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 05:05 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
'Obama has caused the worst racial divide in decades'
Was the crux of this that Trump, or Republicans, or some other group were arguing that Blacks or Hispanics were the victims of increasing numbers of hate crimes? The data clearly refutes that. If it shows anything it is that anti-black and anti-hispanic hate crime has been going down solidly through the Obama presidency, while anti-white hate crime has increased in his second term to a stable plateau about 25% more than the low it hit in 2011.

Last edited by shuttlt; 22nd December 2016 at 05:10 AM.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 09:58 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Speaking of hoaxes, youtube hoaxer claims he was booted off plane for speaking Arabic.

People want to boycott Delta because of course they do.
I'm not buying this guy's story one reason being that when Saleh complains about "six white people against us bearded men" there's clearly a non white bearded man wearing a high viz vest standing right behind the woman in the red jacket.

So 24 hours later, more of the story comes out. Link that includes a link to a Reddit thread authored by someone who claims to have been on the plane at the time.

Guess we won't really know what happened until the lawyers get involved.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 10:04 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
I'm not buying this guy's story one reason being that when Saleh complains about "six white people against us bearded men" there's clearly a non white bearded man wearing a high viz vest standing right behind the woman in the red jacket.

So 24 hours later, more of the story comes out. Link that includes a link to a Reddit thread authored by someone who claims to have been on the plane at the time.

Guess we won't really know what happened until the lawyers get involved.
Should we even *care* what really happened with this story?
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Old 22nd December 2016, 10:19 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Should we even *care* what really happened with this story?
Yes, if it results in a massive judgement against this hoaxer.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 10:50 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Newtons Bit View Post
Yes, if it results in a massive judgement against this hoaxer.
Fair enough.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 11:10 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Should we even *care* what really happened with this story?
Well it is a thread about a massive wave of hate crimes since Trump and Saleh is an American so, YMMV.

I'm curious if, this story does turn out to be a hoax, whether Saleh's social media accounts will get suspended or terminated under the fake news philosophies that are emerging.

When even The Guardian is questioning your story, you know you have a problem.

To steal a line from that story.

"Alleging discrimination where none occurred is a dangerous and damaging game. Thatís why itís so important to find out the facts"
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Old 22nd December 2016, 11:27 AM   #375
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So, three big national hate crime stories. One a hoax. One probably a hoax. One a fraud covering up another mundane crime.

Productive day.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 01:09 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Is there a quote from the FBI describing the overall change as a sharp increase and the sharpest since 2001? I don't see anything in the New York Times piece quoting them saying that. In any case, there was a sharper increase in 2006. The numbers go up one year and down the next.
There is no quote from the FBI saying it was the sharpest since 2001, that's a quote from the Southern Poverty Law Center, based on the FBI numbers. Sorry for my sloppy use of the comma. It's not the sharpest increase in overall hate crimes, but against Muslims (and a sharp increase against transgender, while religious wise, crimes against Jews are still the highest number). The rate of attacks on people perceived as Arab grew even more.


Quote:
I know, I've looked at all of this data. Sure, 2015 was a bad year for terrorism against the West. I'm less sure of the numbers, but it looks like the worst in a decade or more. Without the impact of Islamic terrorism, I'd expect the overall figure for hate crime would have fallen in 2015.

I don't think anyone has claimed that Trump's rhetoric is the sole driving factor. I am saying they are connected, and how much each direction or how much other factors are driving them both might be up for debate, but as far as plausible mechanisms go, this isn't far from absolutely proven. (This being rhetoric can cause violence, and that Trump's rhetoric has.) Even before the election, people were looking at the numbers and highlighting the correlation.


Quote:
Nonsense.
They fell in 1997, fell in 1998, rose in 1999, rose in 2000, rose in 2001, fell in 2002, rose in 2003, rose in 2004, fell in 2005, rose in 2006, fell in 2007, rose in 2008, there is no data for 2009 but by 2010 it had fallen, fell in 2011, fell in 2012, rose in 2013, fell in 2014, rose in 2015. The numbers bob up and down. The number for 2015 is less than the number for 2013.
And now they've risen, and almost all of that raise happens to be in the category most demonized by the president-elect. They are back on the raise. What you're saying is that they might not stay back on the raise because of previous years, but the jumps aren't the same distribution as previous years. Even looking only at the FBI data shows this, and we in no way only have to look at the FBI data.

Other categories continued falling. Some stayed almost the same.


Quote:
I don't see any evidence for that in the FBI data. Was Trump's rhetoric responsible for the level of hate crime in 2013 being higher than it is now? 2015 looks to be an all time low for hate crime against Hispanics. Is that also because of Trump's rhetoric? 2015 and 2001 were both big years for Islamic terrorism against the West. What reason is there to look for another explanation? Is it your contention that if I look at other countries in the West who haven't been subject to Trump's malign influence, I won't see a surge in reporting in 2015.
We don't have to limit ourselves to the FBI data. We don't have to limit our explanations to single factors.


Quote:
I think one can accept that many of the reports are true and also accept that there is no real evidence of widespread trends. For myself I've seen far more bile, hatred and verified cases of violence from the anti-Trump camp, than the Trump camp. Does this prove something terrible about the Left, and Hillary? Maybe there are real trends and at some point there will be data to put all of this into perspective?

There probably will be, eventually. That doesn't mean we can't be concerned now, oppose plausible mechanisms now, and that irrational hateful rhetoric shouldn't be called out regardless.

And yes, those on the left calling for violence and committing it should be opposed as well (right now, I don't know what future events might justify), yet the big difference is that we don't have any high level people on the left calling for a registry of conservatives, nor banning immigration from conservative regions, nor calling for violence (take them out on a stretcher). It is amusing though that in your comparison here, it puts the Trump people in the place of the terrorists, providing the other mechanisms for raise in crimes against the group.
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Old 22nd December 2016, 04:54 PM   #377
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And the Right is already compiling their own database of fake hate crimes which they are trying to use to dismiss all the reports.

To quote Coast2Coast AMs 'Science Advisor':

Quote:
...this entire list is instructive. First of all, the distribution of fake hate crimes is not even. A vast majority are being committed by leftists or Muslims aimed at discrediting the right or western civilization. Thus, the claim that the election of Donald Trump has sparked more rightwing racism against minorities or the left is shown to be bogus, right from the start.
http://behindtheblack.com/behind-the...e-hate-crimes/

The list itself is linked below, it's about page is well worth looking at for all the warning signs of partisanship.

http://www.fakehatecrimes.org/
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Old 27th December 2016, 10:24 AM   #378
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Denton family finds vehicles set on fire, racial slur spray-painted on garage

Quote:
A Denton family was awoken early Monday by a neighbor pounding on their door.
The man told them that a truck in their driveway was on fire, Jenny Williams wrote in a blog post,

A motorcycle also had been set ablaze ó and, Williams and husband David discovered, someone had spray-painted "[N-word] lovers" on their garage door.

Firefighters quickly extinguished the vehicles and even offered the Williamses' four children a tour of their firetruck, Jenny Williams said.
Luckily the culprit was quickly identified.

Denton man set his vehicles ablaze, painted racial slur on own garage door, wife says

Quote:
A Denton woman says her husband confessed to torching a truck and motorcycle at the family's home and spray-painting a racial slur on the garage.
Jenny and David Williams were awoken early Dec. 12 by a neighbor pounding on their door in the 600 block of Aspen Drive.
The man alerted them to the burning truck in their driveway, and they later discovered the vandalized garage door, which read "[N-word] lovers."

Firefighters quickly arrived and extinguished the blaze ó and gave the family's four children a tour of their firetruck ó but Jenny Williams was left wondering why someone would target her home.

...

A GoFundMe account set up for the family raised more than $5,000; Williams said the fundraiser's organizer was working to refund those donations.
In her Facebook post, Mrs. Williams reminds people that GoFundMe deducts 8%, which they will be unable to repay.
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Old 27th December 2016, 10:29 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by Cylinder View Post
Denton family finds vehicles set on fire, racial slur spray-painted on garage



Luckily the culprit was quickly identified.

Denton man set his vehicles ablaze, painted racial slur on own garage door, wife says



In her Facebook post, Mrs. Williams reminds people that GoFundMe deducts 8%, which they will be unable to repay.
Why do progressives work so hard to create fake news?
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Old 27th December 2016, 10:40 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do progressives work so hard to create fake news?
Milo Yiannopolis, among others, are starting to call it a supply and demand problem. There are too many diversity activists and feminists and such and not enough real world discrimination to go around, so there is a market for the stuff. And considering how eagerly even so-called skeptics are to uncritically lap up these stories, he's onto something.
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Old 27th December 2016, 11:59 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why do progressives work so hard to create fake news?
How do you know that he's progressive? For all we know, it was attempted insurance fraud. Or maybe he's flat our crazy and hearing voices in his head. He was placed in a mental health facility.

Why do right-wingers knee-jerk to self-serving conclusions?
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Old 27th December 2016, 12:13 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
How do you know that he's progressive? For all we know, it was attempted insurance fraud. Or maybe he's flat our crazy and hearing voices in his head. He was placed in a mental health facility.
Oh. That is unfortunate. Perhaps if the progs didn't try so hard to create fake news, people wouldn't be driven to act out the false narrative like this.

Quote:
Why do right-wingers knee-jerk to self-serving conclusions?
Humans do what humans do. Probably for more or less the same reasons left-wingers spam self-serving lies.
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Old 27th December 2016, 12:50 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Oh. That is unfortunate. Perhaps if the progs didn't try so hard to create fake news, people wouldn't be driven to act out the false narrative like this.
'Guy performs hate crime on self' is at a slightly different scale than, say, 'Iraq has WMDs' or 'Social Security is failing and the only way we can save it is by privatizing it.'

Quote:
Humans do what humans do. Probably for more or less the same reasons left-wingers humans spam self-serving lies.
FTFY.

Another thing I see often in humans is being both over-broad and selective in application at the same time.
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Old 27th December 2016, 01:33 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
'Guy performs hate crime on self' is at a slightly different scale than, say, 'Iraq has WMDs' or 'Social Security is failing and the only way we can save it is by privatizing it.'
Your begged questions are not on topic. If you are interested in debating those points, find one of the many threads devoted to them. Meanwhile "Guy performs yet another fake hate crime" is at exactly the scale relevant to this thread.

Quote:
FTFY.
Unbalancing a perfectly cromulent call-and-response is really more of a break than a fix.

Quote:
Another thing I see often in humans is being both over-broad and selective in application at the same time.
That would certainly explain why you bothered to "fix" my post, but left varwoche's post, which commits the same "error", unmolested.
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Old 27th December 2016, 01:52 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Your begged questions are not on topic. If you are interested in debating those points, find one of the many threads devoted to them. Meanwhile "Guy performs yet another fake hate crime" is at exactly the scale relevant to this thread.
Please continue pretending your generic 'lib'-bashing was devoted to the spotless honor of the topic title. You've truly got Academy Award potential with that kind of writing.

You'll also notice I didn't deny that people who are liberals lie, I simply made sure it was understood not to be an exclusive trait.

Quote:
Unbalancing a perfectly cromulent call-and-response is really more of a break than a fix.

That would certainly explain why you bothered to "fix" my post, but left varwoche's post, which commits the same "error", unmolested.
Given that I'm coming from the position of neither side being perfect to begin with, that would seem a bit redundant. Though I can't help but notice you just floated a self-serving conclusion up to explain my behavior.

I do believe you've got something on your shoe...
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Old 27th December 2016, 03:45 PM   #386
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That would certainly explain why you bothered to "fix" my post, but left varwoche's post, which commits the same "error", unmolested.
It's possible that Delphic Oracle recognized my post for what it was, that being sarcastic mockery.
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Old 27th December 2016, 03:56 PM   #387
theprestige
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
It's possible that Delphic Oracle recognized my post for what it was, that being sarcastic mockery.
Fair enough. This is definitely the thread for sarcastic mockery.
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Old 27th December 2016, 04:09 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
Please continue pretending your generic 'lib'-bashing was devoted to the spotless honor of the topic title. You've truly got Academy Award potential with that kind of writing.
That's the beauty of this thread's topic. One doesn't need to go beyond it to make the point. But to avoid even the appearance of being "generic": The 'libs' are heavily invested in pushing a false narrative about hate crimes, up to and including manufacturing hate crimes. This has several pernicious effects. One is that it creates the impression that hate criminals are far more populous, and far more prolific, than reality indicates. Another is that it poisons the well against real claims of hate crimes.

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You'll also notice I didn't deny that people who are liberals lie, I simply made sure it was understood not to be an exclusive trait.
I had in fact made sure of it already, in the very post of mine you quoted.

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Given that I'm coming from the position of neither side being perfect to begin with, that would seem a bit redundant. Though I can't help but notice you just floated a self-serving conclusion up to explain my behavior.
Redundancy didn't seem to bother you when you were trying to "fix" my post. And claiming to be fair and balanced is not a proxy for acting fair and balanced. It's not an excuse that works for Fox News, and it's not an excuse that works here.

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Old 4th January 2017, 07:11 PM   #389
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White guy tortured on Facebook live by black perps in Chicago.

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story
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Old 4th January 2017, 07:40 PM   #390
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
White guy tortured on Facebook live by black perps in Chicago.

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story

I blame slavery.

ETA: and Jim Crow laws.
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Old 4th January 2017, 09:49 PM   #391
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
White guy tortured on Facebook live by black perps in Chicago.

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story
Wait a second. Why didn't he just use his white privilege?
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Old 4th January 2017, 09:50 PM   #392
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
White guy tortured on Facebook live by black perps in Chicago.

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story
He's lucky they were perps and not thugs.
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Old 4th January 2017, 10:30 PM   #393
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Hope you guys feel better about yourselves now.
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Old 4th January 2017, 11:00 PM   #394
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hope you guys feel better about yourselves now.
Fish in a barrel. You can never feel good about a big ol' cheeseball right down the middle of the plate.
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Old 4th January 2017, 11:03 PM   #395
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This was an obvious hate crime. And on all the reddit threads I read, they are saying these 4 have to be charged with a hate crime. My question is. What difference does it make in the sentencing? Does it increase the sentence by some predictable percentage?
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Old 4th January 2017, 11:27 PM   #396
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hope you guys feel better about yourselves now.
Was there some reason I was supposed to feel worse about myself?
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Old 5th January 2017, 01:20 AM   #397
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hope you guys feel better about yourselves now.
Well, I'm happy that the massive wave of hatecrimes against minorities didn';t materialise.

I'm considerably less happy about my recent realisation that white people are far more likely to be the victims of racist violence than I thought, sometimes with South Africanesque overtones.
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Old 5th January 2017, 03:37 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
White guy tortured on Facebook live by black perps in Chicago.

http://www.fox32chicago.com/news/crime/227116738-story
Idiocy like that will only help those who support Trump, I hope that Black leaders realize this and condemn it quickly.
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Old 5th January 2017, 05:38 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Hope you guys feel better about yourselves now.
Huh? Isn't debunking rubbish and reporting real news what a skeptics site is for?
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Old 5th January 2017, 05:53 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Idiocy like that will only help those who support Trump, I hope that Black leaders realize this and condemn it quickly.
I wonder if Trump will tweet about it?

"It's unfortunate that they had to bring my name into it. Very sad."
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