Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election. - Page 5

ponderingturtle · 17th November 2016, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

This is from a few days ago:

There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America'
Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror.
Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm

Linky to the rest

For a different view

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...-say/93681294/

"What may seem like a dramatic rise in the number of hate harassment and hate incidents happening across the country in the wake of Tuesday's general election is not in anyone's imagination, experts say.

There indeed has been a spike in the number of reports of such incidents, say representatives for two organizations that track such occurrences. A representative for one group, in fact, said the rise appears to be even worse that what was took place immediately after the terror attacks in 2001."

rwguinn · 17th November 2016, 02:47 PM

I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"

casebro · 17th November 2016, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in.

There's thousands of places you can talk about hate crimes.

This supposedly Sketic';s site thread is about a " Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election".

And my post above seems to have gotten it back on topic, you're welcome.

tyr_13 · 17th November 2016, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"

Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable.

rwguinn · 17th November 2016, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable.

???

tyr_13 · 17th November 2016, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

???

Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase.

As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well.

rwguinn · 17th November 2016, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by tyr_13

Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase.

As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well.

Certainly I have noticed (with the emphasis on "noticed") an apparent increase in people's use of language that is offensive/denigrating. Whether it is because I am more sensitive to it or it's real, I cannot affirm.
But I get sent things like "Muslim Firebombed on Highway", or "6 stabbed in Dallas Racist attack", and I find nothing more recent than 2012, I get a bit testy.
And there have been folks, emboldened by perceived leniency because of the elections, who ARE putting racist/sexist things out--fliers at SMU, for example.
As far as I can see, even in Texas, the authorities are coming down hard on those they catch. They don't catch all of them, though.

marplots · 17th November 2016, 07:10 PM

It's probably a false flag. Just as soon as all the racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist bigots come out of the closet to parade their nasty, as just as soon as we document them all - THAT'S WHEN THE HAMMER FALLS!

Well played NSA, well played.

Foolmewunz · 17th November 2016, 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Dane

This is from a few days ago:

There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America'
Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror.
Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm

Linky to the rest

If you want to disprove "news" it's always best to go to the sources. Alternately, it might be best to just ignore anecdotes. I don't find that article terribly convincing. People lie on Facebook? Gasp! Twitter is for ********? Don't tell me!

Meanwhile there are legitimate news articles every day on actual cases, including video footage of the perp(s) and arrests in at least one case... but the incidents are generally cowardly sneak-attacks of graffiti. No one's likely to be so emboldened by Trump's victory to tell someone to move to the back of the bus, finger a weapon and tell them their time is coming or any such B-Movie made-up crap.

I suspect most of the graffiti is kids. I don't think for a second that Stormfront is shouting "Woo Hoo, We Won, Time to Attack!"

So? Racist violence? Probably no greater than before the election, but count on it getting reported as though it is. Racist vandalism? I think it's probably on the upswing. Mob mentality, and all that.

Darth Rotor · 17th November 2016, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Agatha

Brexit made racism acceptable but electing Trump made racism preferable.

I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement.

Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots?

Delphic Oracle · 17th November 2016, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Darth Rotor

I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement.

Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots?

Because if someone can espouse hateful views and not face consequences for it (aside from it rightfully being called hateful), that normalizes it. It becomes "one of many acceptable viewpoints." This is similar to why many people objected to Bill Nye accepting a debate against Ken Hamm, regardless of the outcome, it gives the appearance of equivalence between two arguments.

Now, if someone can espouse hateful views and be elevated, in part, because of it, that can be read as those views being admirable or preferable.

This effect occurs regardless of whether the hateful rhetoric is 'why' he was elevated, since people will read what they want to into it.

In studying social uprisings, I've encountered that one of the earliest strategies for organization is the use of a common symbol. It reveals to people how many stand against the reigning orthodoxy. It suggests that this contrary viewpoint has power and widespread support. So when a demagogue preaching hate is seen to have a great deal of support (and/or lack of resistance), people who share that view grow bolder and begin to embrace even more overt gestures. It's a very fundamental part of social organization engaged in by a social species.

Klimax · 18th November 2016, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I get that all the time. That damn fool Alumemnon keeps stealing my thunder!

There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in.

No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides.

IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly.

uke2se · 18th November 2016, 06:13 AM

Originally Posted by Klimax

There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.

No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides.

IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly.

I'd say there's a difference. Not all states have hate-crime legislation. Statistics from those states won't show any rise in hate-crimes.

Belz... · 18th November 2016, 06:15 AM

Originally Posted by Klimax

There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.

You sitll haven't answered my question.

Cainkane1 · 18th November 2016, 06:18 AM

Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton.

I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before.

My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race.

catsmate · 18th November 2016, 06:19 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I keep checking back on this thread looking for some actual stats on an actual rise in hate crime.

Call me back when you get some.

Given that US LEA don't bother to maintain proper stats on hate crimes this effectively isn't possible.

catsmate · 18th November 2016, 06:21 AM

Originally Posted by rwguinn

I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"

http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/
https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html

Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?

uke2se · 18th November 2016, 06:28 AM

Originally Posted by Cainkane1

Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton.

I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before.

My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race.

All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots.

The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse.

rwguinn · 18th November 2016, 06:34 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/
https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html

Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?

Don't read very well, do you? If I had seen that one posted on FB, I'd have looked for it.

theprestige · 18th November 2016, 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by catsmate

http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/
https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html

Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?

That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class.

And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press.

Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem.

Belz... · 18th November 2016, 07:17 AM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place.

I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.

Degeneve · 18th November 2016, 08:02 AM

Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...

mijopaalmc · 18th November 2016, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Degeneve

Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...

You mean:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Or in meme form:

marplots · 18th November 2016, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Degeneve

Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...

I like that phrasing. I'm just not sure if a fear years is more or less than a dreadful.

Emily's Cat · 18th November 2016, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by catsmate

http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/
https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html

Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?

I'm kind of on the fence here. If this is legitimate work by white nationalists, I find it extremely disturbing. On the other hand, however, all of the Hitler-related rhetoric I've heard has been coming from Clinton supporters who are equating Trump with Hitler. Until they have the vandals in hand, I'm not going to assume that this was Trump supporters. Nor am I going to assume that it was Clinton supporters.

I'm going to assume that it was crass hate-filled idiots... which seem to have a fairly equal chance of being on either side of the aisle right now.

dudalb · 18th November 2016, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class.

And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press.

Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem.

That is a huge set of blinders you have got on, slick.

dudalb · 18th November 2016, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.

And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won.

The Big Dog · 18th November 2016, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by uke2se

All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots.

The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse.

you think there are no the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots in the democrat party?

adorable

The Big Dog · 18th November 2016, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

.

absolutely, there is one that uses a Swastika in place of "T" in Trump.

That ain't no proTrump sign, and to think otherwise you'd have to have blinders on.

Emily's Cat · 18th November 2016, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won.

I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here.

theprestige · 18th November 2016, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.

Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same?

More to the point: Is this really the high water mark of a "massive wave of hate crimes against minorities"?

Belz... · 18th November 2016, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same?

If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.

Cavemonster · 18th November 2016, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat

I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here.

One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy.

A statement similar to the one made by the NC GOP would be fine.

If it were me, I'd go farther with something like:

"I do not stand for white supremacy or white nationalism, my campaign and my deepest desire have been to make America great for all Americans, regardless of their skin color, religion, sexuality or where their ancestors came from. If the North Carolina KKK believes that I support their hatred, they are dead wrong. If they believe my victory at the polls was a victory for their hatred, they are dead wrong. I have no tolerance for their hatred and I will not allow them to pretend that I support their twisted views."

If he really condemns their racism, then now is the time to make that kind of statement in clear, unquestionable terms. The only downside I can see to such a statement is that he may lose the support of people who believe he supports their racist ideals. If their support is that important to him, then he certainly confirms some of the worst suppositions about him.

Graham2001 · 18th November 2016, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.

Sounds like a case of the Duncan Anderson Effect (Allegedly in one match the soccer player was shown a red card and responded "If I'm to be accused of it I might as well as done it" and then knocked out the referee.")

Of slightly more and disturbing interest are these remarks from Kanye West, discussed by Snopes:

Quote:

Thank you ... that’s a woman right there, saying “I love you,” after I just said that there was things that I liked about Trump’s campaign. That’s not supposed to happen, right? Case in point. I guess we’re just not gonna sell out the rest of the tour now.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/18/kan...-donald-trump/

And this 'document' that turned up in my inbox, I find the opening disclaimer amusing:

Quote:

[Content warning: hate crimes, Trump, racism. I have turned off comments to keep out bad people who might be attracted by this sort of thing. Avoid sharing in places where this will attract the wrong kind of attention, as per your best judgment. Please don’t interpret anything in this article to mean that Trump is not super terrible]

[Epistemic status: A reduction of a complicated issue to only 8000 words, because nobody would read it if it were longer. I think this is true but incomplete. I do not deny that Trump is being divisive and abusing identity politics in more subtle ways. I will try to discuss missing parts at more length later.]

http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16...l-crying-wolf/

theprestige · 18th November 2016, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.

I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it.

Again, Many people on the left connected Bush with Hitler. Just likening someone to Nazis doesn't make you a racist. What makes you think that the authors of this graffitti are ~~pro Trump~~ ~~Trump-inspired~~ racists?

Belz... · 18th November 2016, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by theprestige

I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it.

Ah, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I'm speed-reading all these threads and my think can't brain sometimes.

theprestige · 18th November 2016, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by Argumemnon

Ah, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I'm speed-reading all these threads and my think can't brain sometimes.

No worries, glad to clear it up. I'm just relieved to dodge an argument with the king of arguments himself :P

phiwum · 18th November 2016, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Cavemonster

One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy.

A statement similar to the one made by the NC GOP would be fine.

If it were me, I'd go farther with something like:

"I do not stand for white supremacy or white nationalism, my campaign and my deepest desire have been to make America great for all Americans, regardless of their skin color, religion, sexuality or where their ancestors came from. If the North Carolina KKK believes that I support their hatred, they are dead wrong. If they believe my victory at the polls was a victory for their hatred, they are dead wrong. I have no tolerance for their hatred and I will not allow them to pretend that I support their twisted views."

If he really condemns their racism, then now is the time to make that kind of statement in clear, unquestionable terms. The only downside I can see to such a statement is that he may lose the support of people who believe he supports their racist ideals. If their support is that important to him, then he certainly confirms some of the worst suppositions about him.

Well said.

Delphic Oracle · 18th November 2016, 08:47 PM

I'd say at least half of the cabinet or agency head picks so far are doing a great job of dispelling any illusions that the hateful rhetoric was just a ploy to get elected and then govern in an inclusive, enlightened fashion.

Jeff Sessions, who once tried to use the Voting Rights Act to punish black people for voting, as Attorney General illustrates the point quite nicely.

Foolmewunz · 18th November 2016, 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle

I'd say at least half of the cabinet or agency head picks so far are doing a great job of dispelling any illusions that the hateful rhetoric was just a ploy to get elected and then govern in an inclusive, enlightened fashion.

Jeff Sessions, who once tried to use the Voting Rights Act to punish black people for voting, as Attorney General illustrates the point quite nicely.

The Sessions appointment has me wondering if I made the wrong bet on Trump pursuing prosecution of Clinton. He's in the background but he's bosom buddies, politically, with Bannon/Bossie/Coulter - the troika of Hillary Hate.

17th November 2016, 01:56 PM	#161
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 43,142	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane This is from a few days ago: There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America' Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror. Elizabeth Nolan Brown\|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm Linky to the rest For a different view http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...-say/93681294/ "What may seem like a dramatic rise in the number of hate harassment and hate incidents happening across the country in the wake of Tuesday's general election is not in anyone's imagination, experts say. There indeed has been a spike in the number of reports of such incidents, say representatives for two organizations that track such occurrences. A representative for one group, in fact, said the rise appears to be even worse that what was took place immediately after the terror attacks in 2001."
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

17th November 2016, 02:47 PM	#162
rwguinn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 11,063	I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

17th November 2016, 04:53 PM	#163
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 15,246	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in. There's thousands of places you can talk about hate crimes. This supposedly Sketic';s site thread is about a " Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election". And my post above seems to have gotten it back on topic, you're welcome.
	__________________ Great minds discuss ideas. Medium minds discuss events. Small minds spend all their time on U-Tube and Facebook.

17th November 2016, 06:26 PM	#164
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by rwguinn I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable" Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

17th November 2016, 06:35 PM	#165
rwguinn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 11,063	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable. ???
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

17th November 2016, 06:42 PM	#166
tyr_13 Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 15,443	Originally Posted by rwguinn ??? Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase. As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well.
	__________________ Circled nothing is still nothing. "Nothing will stop the U.S. from being a world leader, not even a handful of adults who want their kids to take science lessons from a book that mentions unicorns six times." -UNLoVedRebel Mumpsimus: a stubborn person who insists on making an error in spite of being shown that it is wrong

17th November 2016, 07:03 PM	#167
rwguinn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 11,063	Originally Posted by tyr_13 Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase. As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well. Certainly I have noticed (with the emphasis on "noticed") an apparent increase in people's use of language that is offensive/denigrating. Whether it is because I am more sensitive to it or it's real, I cannot affirm. But I get sent things like "Muslim Firebombed on Highway", or "6 stabbed in Dallas Racist attack", and I find nothing more recent than 2012, I get a bit testy. And there have been folks, emboldened by perceived leniency because of the elections, who ARE putting racist/sexist things out--fliers at SMU, for example. As far as I can see, even in Texas, the authorities are coming down hard on those they catch. They don't catch all of them, though.
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

17th November 2016, 07:10 PM	#168
marplots Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 29,167	It's probably a false flag. Just as soon as all the racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist bigots come out of the closet to parade their nasty, as just as soon as we document them all - THAT'S WHEN THE HAMMER FALLS! Well played NSA, well played.

17th November 2016, 09:09 PM	#169
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 38,159	Originally Posted by Eddie Dane This is from a few days ago: There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America' Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror. Elizabeth Nolan Brown\|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm Linky to the rest If you want to disprove "news" it's always best to go to the sources. Alternately, it might be best to just ignore anecdotes. I don't find that article terribly convincing. People lie on Facebook? Gasp! Twitter is for ********? Don't tell me! Meanwhile there are legitimate news articles every day on actual cases, including video footage of the perp(s) and arrests in at least one case... but the incidents are generally cowardly sneak-attacks of graffiti. No one's likely to be so emboldened by Trump's victory to tell someone to move to the back of the bus, finger a weapon and tell them their time is coming or any such B-Movie made-up crap. I suspect most of the graffiti is kids. I don't think for a second that Stormfront is shouting "Woo Hoo, We Won, Time to Attack!" So? Racist violence? Probably no greater than before the election, but count on it getting reported as though it is. Racist vandalism? I think it's probably on the upswing. Mob mentality, and all that.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

17th November 2016, 10:59 PM	#170
Darth Rotor Salted Sith Cynic Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 38,517	Originally Posted by Agatha Brexit made racism acceptable but electing Trump made racism preferable. I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement. Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots?
	__________________ Helicopters don't so much fly as beat the air into submission. "Jesus wept, but did He laugh?"--F.H. Buckley____"There is one thing that was too great for God to show us when He walked upon our earth ... His mirth." --Chesterton__"If the barbarian in us is excised, so is our humanity."--D'rok__ "I only use my gun whenever kindness fails."-- Robert Earl Keen__"Sturgeon spares none.". -- The Marquis

17th November 2016, 11:49 PM	#171
Delphic Oracle Master Poster Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 2,393	Originally Posted by Darth Rotor I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement. Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots? Because if someone can espouse hateful views and not face consequences for it (aside from it rightfully being called hateful), that normalizes it. It becomes "one of many acceptable viewpoints." This is similar to why many people objected to Bill Nye accepting a debate against Ken Hamm, regardless of the outcome, it gives the appearance of equivalence between two arguments. Now, if someone can espouse hateful views and be elevated, in part, because of it, that can be read as those views being admirable or preferable. This effect occurs regardless of whether the hateful rhetoric is 'why' he was elevated, since people will read what they want to into it. In studying social uprisings, I've encountered that one of the earliest strategies for organization is the use of a common symbol. It reveals to people how many stand against the reigning orthodoxy. It suggests that this contrary viewpoint has power and widespread support. So when a demagogue preaching hate is seen to have a great deal of support (and/or lack of resistance), people who share that view grow bolder and begin to embrace even more overt gestures. It's a very fundamental part of social organization engaged in by a social species.
	Last edited by Delphic Oracle; 17th November 2016 at 11:56 PM.

18th November 2016, 05:56 AM	#172
Klimax NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 12,318	Originally Posted by Argumemnon I get that all the time. That damn fool Alumemnon keeps stealing my thunder! There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own. Originally Posted by ponderingturtle Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in. No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides. IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly.
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18th November 2016, 06:13 AM	#173
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 11,661	Originally Posted by Klimax There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own. No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides. IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly. I'd say there's a difference. Not all states have hate-crime legislation. Statistics from those states won't show any rise in hate-crimes.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

18th November 2016, 06:15 AM	#174
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 72,392	Originally Posted by Klimax There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own. You sitll haven't answered my question.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness

18th November 2016, 06:18 AM	#175
Cainkane1 Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The great American southeast Posts: 8,473	Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton. I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before. My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race.
	__________________ If at first you don't succeed try try again. Then if you fail to succeed to Hell with that. Try something else.

18th November 2016, 06:19 AM	#176
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,351	Originally Posted by casebro I keep checking back on this thread looking for some actual stats on an actual rise in hate crime. Call me back when you get some. Given that US LEA don't bother to maintain proper stats on hate crimes this effectively isn't possible.
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th November 2016, 06:21 AM	#177
catsmate No longer the 1 Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 19,351	Originally Posted by rwguinn I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable" http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/ https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840 http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?
	__________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.

18th November 2016, 06:28 AM	#178
uke2se Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 11,661	Originally Posted by Cainkane1 Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton. I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before. My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race. All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots. The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse.
	__________________ Before you say something stupid about climate change, check this list. "If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. " Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies Vol. 1

18th November 2016, 06:34 AM	#179
rwguinn Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 11,063	Originally Posted by catsmate http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/ https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840 http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder? Don't read very well, do you? If I had seen that one posted on FB, I'd have looked for it.
	__________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275

18th November 2016, 07:00 AM	#180
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 27,147	Originally Posted by catsmate http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/ https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840 http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder? That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe? Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian. They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative. When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class. And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press. Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem.

18th November 2016, 07:17 AM	#181
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 72,392	Originally Posted by theprestige That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe? Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness

18th November 2016, 08:02 AM	#182
Degeneve Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 784	Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...
Degeneve Muse Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 784

18th November 2016, 08:31 AM	#184
marplots Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 29,167	Originally Posted by Degeneve Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years... I like that phrasing. I'm just not sure if a fear years is more or less than a dreadful.

18th November 2016, 02:27 PM	#185
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Pacific Northwet Posts: 9,979	Originally Posted by catsmate http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/ https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840 http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder? I'm kind of on the fence here. If this is legitimate work by white nationalists, I find it extremely disturbing. On the other hand, however, all of the Hitler-related rhetoric I've heard has been coming from Clinton supporters who are equating Trump with Hitler. Until they have the vandals in hand, I'm not going to assume that this was Trump supporters. Nor am I going to assume that it was Clinton supporters. I'm going to assume that it was crass hate-filled idiots... which seem to have a fairly equal chance of being on either side of the aisle right now.
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18th November 2016, 02:33 PM	#186
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,470	Originally Posted by theprestige That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe? Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian. They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative. When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class. And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press. Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem. That is a huge set of blinders you have got on, slick.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

18th November 2016, 02:34 PM	#187
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39,470	Originally Posted by Argumemnon I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign. And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won.
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

18th November 2016, 02:34 PM	#188
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,281	Originally Posted by uke2se All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots. The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse. you think there are no the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots in the democrat party? adorable
	__________________ Godspeed Buddy! Keep on Making America Great Again!

18th November 2016, 02:36 PM	#189
The Big Dog Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 24,281	Originally Posted by theprestige That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe? Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian. They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative. . absolutely, there is one that uses a Swastika in place of "T" in Trump. That ain't no proTrump sign, and to think otherwise you'd have to have blinders on.
	__________________ Godspeed Buddy! Keep on Making America Great Again!

18th November 2016, 02:55 PM	#190
Emily's Cat Rarely prone to hissy-fits Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: Pacific Northwet Posts: 9,979	Originally Posted by dudalb And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won. I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here.
	__________________ I am me. I am just me. I'm a little like other cats... but mostly I am just me.

18th November 2016, 04:20 PM	#191
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 27,147	Originally Posted by Argumemnon I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign. Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same? More to the point: Is this really the high water mark of a "massive wave of hate crimes against minorities"?

18th November 2016, 04:25 PM	#192
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 72,392	Originally Posted by theprestige Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same? If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness

18th November 2016, 04:36 PM	#193
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,869	Originally Posted by Emily's Cat I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here. One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy. A statement similar to the one made by the NC GOP would be fine. If it were me, I'd go farther with something like: "I do not stand for white supremacy or white nationalism, my campaign and my deepest desire have been to make America great for all Americans, regardless of their skin color, religion, sexuality or where their ancestors came from. If the North Carolina KKK believes that I support their hatred, they are dead wrong. If they believe my victory at the polls was a victory for their hatred, they are dead wrong. I have no tolerance for their hatred and I will not allow them to pretend that I support their twisted views." If he really condemns their racism, then now is the time to make that kind of statement in clear, unquestionable terms. The only downside I can see to such a statement is that he may lose the support of people who believe he supports their racist ideals. If their support is that important to him, then he certainly confirms some of the worst suppositions about him.
Cavemonster Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 4,869	__________________ The weakness of all Utopias is this, ... They first assume that no man will want more than his share, and then are very ingenious in explaining whether his share will be delivered by motorcar or balloon. -G.K. CHESTERTON

18th November 2016, 05:24 PM	#194
Graham2001 Graduate Poster Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,177	Originally Posted by Argumemnon If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought. Sounds like a case of the Duncan Anderson Effect (Allegedly in one match the soccer player was shown a red card and responded "If I'm to be accused of it I might as well as done it" and then knocked out the referee.") Of slightly more and disturbing interest are these remarks from Kanye West, discussed by Snopes: Quote: Thank you ... that’s a woman right there, saying “I love you,” after I just said that there was things that I liked about Trump’s campaign. That’s not supposed to happen, right? Case in point. I guess we’re just not gonna sell out the rest of the tour now. http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/18/kan...-donald-trump/ And this 'document' that turned up in my inbox, I find the opening disclaimer amusing: Quote: [Content warning: hate crimes, Trump, racism. I have turned off comments to keep out bad people who might be attracted by this sort of thing. Avoid sharing in places where this will attract the wrong kind of attention, as per your best judgment. Please don’t interpret anything in this article to mean that Trump is not super terrible] [Epistemic status: A reduction of a complicated issue to only 8000 words, because nobody would read it if it were longer. I think this is true but incomplete. I do not deny that Trump is being divisive and abusing identity politics in more subtle ways. I will try to discuss missing parts at more length later.] http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16...l-crying-wolf/
	__________________ "I need hard facts! Bring in the dowsers!" 'America Unearthed' Season 1, Episode 13: Hunt for the Holy Grail Everybody gets it wrong sometimes...

18th November 2016, 05:48 PM	#195
theprestige Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 27,147	Originally Posted by Argumemnon If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought. I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it. Again, Many people on the left connected Bush with Hitler. Just likening someone to Nazis doesn't make you a racist. What makes you think that the authors of this graffitti are ~~pro Trump~~ ~~Trump-inspired~~ racists?

18th November 2016, 05:53 PM	#196
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In the details Posts: 72,392	Originally Posted by theprestige I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it. Ah, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I'm speed-reading all these threads and my think can't brain sometimes.
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