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Old 17th November 2016, 01:56 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
This is from a few days ago:

There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America'

Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror.
Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm



Linky to the rest
For a different view

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2...-say/93681294/

"What may seem like a dramatic rise in the number of hate harassment and hate incidents happening across the country in the wake of Tuesday's general election is not in anyone's imagination, experts say.

There indeed has been a spike in the number of reports of such incidents, say representatives for two organizations that track such occurrences. A representative for one group, in fact, said the rise appears to be even worse that what was took place immediately after the terror attacks in 2001."
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Old 17th November 2016, 02:47 PM   #162
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I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"
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Old 17th November 2016, 04:53 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in.
There's thousands of places you can talk about hate crimes.

This supposedly Sketic';s site thread is about a " Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election".

And my post above seems to have gotten it back on topic, you're welcome.
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Old 17th November 2016, 06:26 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"
Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable.
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Old 17th November 2016, 06:35 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, USA Today is so disreputable.
???
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Old 17th November 2016, 06:42 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
???
Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase.

As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well.
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Old 17th November 2016, 07:03 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Sorry, I see that you were looking for some specific ones on Facebook, rather than if there was a more general increase.

As I said before, going from 'zero' to 'daily' was a local increase. The number of swastika I've seen has increased from 'one sometimes carved into a public bathroom stall' to 'spray painted on the university', and overtly racist conversation went from 'hushed tones' to 'blatant'. The videos of the schools with people chanting things seems to be rock solid documentation as well.
Certainly I have noticed (with the emphasis on "noticed") an apparent increase in people's use of language that is offensive/denigrating. Whether it is because I am more sensitive to it or it's real, I cannot affirm.
But I get sent things like "Muslim Firebombed on Highway", or "6 stabbed in Dallas Racist attack", and I find nothing more recent than 2012, I get a bit testy.
And there have been folks, emboldened by perceived leniency because of the elections, who ARE putting racist/sexist things out--fliers at SMU, for example.
As far as I can see, even in Texas, the authorities are coming down hard on those they catch. They don't catch all of them, though.
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Old 17th November 2016, 07:10 PM   #168
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It's probably a false flag. Just as soon as all the racist, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist bigots come out of the closet to parade their nasty, as just as soon as we document them all - THAT'S WHEN THE HAMMER FALLS!

Well played NSA, well played.
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Old 17th November 2016, 09:09 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Eddie Dane View Post
This is from a few days ago:

There Is No Violent Hate-Crimewave in 'Trump's America'

Please stop spreading unsubstantiated stories of Trump-induced terror.
Elizabeth Nolan Brown|Nov. 11, 2016 12:40 pm



Linky to the rest
If you want to disprove "news" it's always best to go to the sources. Alternately, it might be best to just ignore anecdotes. I don't find that article terribly convincing. People lie on Facebook? Gasp! Twitter is for ********? Don't tell me!

Meanwhile there are legitimate news articles every day on actual cases, including video footage of the perp(s) and arrests in at least one case... but the incidents are generally cowardly sneak-attacks of graffiti. No one's likely to be so emboldened by Trump's victory to tell someone to move to the back of the bus, finger a weapon and tell them their time is coming or any such B-Movie made-up crap.

I suspect most of the graffiti is kids. I don't think for a second that Stormfront is shouting "Woo Hoo, We Won, Time to Attack!"

So? Racist violence? Probably no greater than before the election, but count on it getting reported as though it is. Racist vandalism? I think it's probably on the upswing. Mob mentality, and all that.
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Old 17th November 2016, 10:59 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Brexit made racism acceptable but electing Trump made racism preferable.
I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement.

Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots?
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Old 17th November 2016, 11:49 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I do not follow your logic, but I sense significant emotion and bias in your statement.

Where, pray tell, did the election of Trump make racism preferable? It sure didn't around here, where I live. Are the people near where you live simple idiots?
Because if someone can espouse hateful views and not face consequences for it (aside from it rightfully being called hateful), that normalizes it. It becomes "one of many acceptable viewpoints." This is similar to why many people objected to Bill Nye accepting a debate against Ken Hamm, regardless of the outcome, it gives the appearance of equivalence between two arguments.

Now, if someone can espouse hateful views and be elevated, in part, because of it, that can be read as those views being admirable or preferable.

This effect occurs regardless of whether the hateful rhetoric is 'why' he was elevated, since people will read what they want to into it.

In studying social uprisings, I've encountered that one of the earliest strategies for organization is the use of a common symbol. It reveals to people how many stand against the reigning orthodoxy. It suggests that this contrary viewpoint has power and widespread support. So when a demagogue preaching hate is seen to have a great deal of support (and/or lack of resistance), people who share that view grow bolder and begin to embrace even more overt gestures. It's a very fundamental part of social organization engaged in by a social species.

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Old 18th November 2016, 05:56 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I get that all the time. That damn fool Alumemnon keeps stealing my thunder!
There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Got it, we can't talk about hate crimes for several years until we have the statistics in.
No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides.

IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:13 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.



No evidence of actual rise means fairly weak discussion with unchecked bias and personal interpretations for both sides.

IIRC Brexit showed up in statistics fairly quickly.
I'd say there's a difference. Not all states have hate-crime legislation. Statistics from those states won't show any rise in hate-crimes.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:15 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
There were similar posts to yours which crossed the line with faulty association to yours own.
You sitll haven't answered my question.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:18 AM   #175
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Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton.

I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before.

My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:19 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
I keep checking back on this thread looking for some actual stats on an actual rise in hate crime.

Call me back when you get some.
Given that US LEA don't bother to maintain proper stats on hate crimes this effectively isn't possible.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:21 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
I've been looking for some.of the ones that appear on Facebook and there is absolutely nothing on any reputable news outlets, unless you consider a blogging in Portland Oregon or Sacramento as "reputable"
http://buffalonews.com/2016/11/09/di...-election-day/
https://twitter.com/SDSUPD/status/796535405667491840
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/clout/400560361.html

Not looking very hard are you? Why is that I wonder?
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:28 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Cainkane1 View Post
Trump didn't tell them to do that. He told them to stop in fact. While there are low life's supporting Trump there are even more low life's supporting Hillary Clinton.

I'm nearly seventy years old and I;ve never seen a post-election like this ever. Riots, broken windows, fires, beatings all coming from Hillarys supporters and from some of Trumps supporters too. Never have I seen anything like this before.

My generation sometimes rioted against social injustices but never for something so petty as losing a Presidential race.
All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots.

The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:34 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Don't read very well, do you? If I had seen that one posted on FB, I'd have looked for it.
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Old 18th November 2016, 07:00 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class.

And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press.

Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem.
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Old 18th November 2016, 07:17 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place.
I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.
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Old 18th November 2016, 08:02 AM   #182
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Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...
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Old 18th November 2016, 08:27 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...
You mean:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Or in meme form:

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Old 18th November 2016, 08:31 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
Some American should maybe learn how "Davon haben wir nichts gewusst!" translates into English. It could become a useful sentence in a fear years...
I like that phrasing. I'm just not sure if a fear years is more or less than a dreadful.
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:27 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
I'm kind of on the fence here. If this is legitimate work by white nationalists, I find it extremely disturbing. On the other hand, however, all of the Hitler-related rhetoric I've heard has been coming from Clinton supporters who are equating Trump with Hitler. Until they have the vandals in hand, I'm not going to assume that this was Trump supporters. Nor am I going to assume that it was Clinton supporters.

I'm going to assume that it was crass hate-filled idiots... which seem to have a fairly equal chance of being on either side of the aisle right now.
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:33 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

When I think of hate crimes, I think of violent crimes against members of protected classes, motivated in part because of their membership in that class.

And I expect to know about them the same way I know about other crimes: because they get reported in regional and national mainstream press.

Like these swastika graffiti stories you found, for example. If that's the worst you can find, then I don't think there's much of a problem.
That is a huge set of blinders you have got on, slick.
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:34 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.
And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won.
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:34 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
All lowlifes support Trump. He's got the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots.

The reason you've never seen a post-election period like this is because this isn't normal. You haven't elected a normal president. You've elected an authoritarian racist. This is going to get a lot worse.
you think there are no the racists, conspiracy theorists, the misogynists, the anti-science folks and the religious bigots in the democrat party?

adorable
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:36 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
That hardly seems like a massive wave of hate crimes directed at minorities. A ripple of hate misdemeanors, maybe?

Assuming they're even pro Trump, anti minority graffiti in the first place. They could be disgruntled minorities calling Trump out as Hitlerian.

They could even be hoaxes. We know progressives aren't above manufacturing petty hate crimes to advance their narrative.

.
absolutely, there is one that uses a Swastika in place of "T" in Trump.

That ain't no proTrump sign, and to think otherwise you'd have to have blinders on.
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Old 18th November 2016, 02:55 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And Trump does not seem willing to dump the bigots now that he has won.
I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here.
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Old 18th November 2016, 04:20 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think them being pro Trump is necessary, just that it is inspired by the victory of his hate-filled campaign.
Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same?

More to the point: Is this really the high water mark of a "massive wave of hate crimes against minorities"?
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Old 18th November 2016, 04:25 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Yes, but inspired in whom? George W Bush inspired a lot of "Bush=Hitler" type rhetoric... on the left. How do we know this isn't more of the same?
If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.
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Old 18th November 2016, 04:36 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not following. How does one go about "dumping" citizens of the country? I fear I'm missing something here.
One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy.

A statement similar to the one made by the NC GOP would be fine.

If it were me, I'd go farther with something like:

"I do not stand for white supremacy or white nationalism, my campaign and my deepest desire have been to make America great for all Americans, regardless of their skin color, religion, sexuality or where their ancestors came from. If the North Carolina KKK believes that I support their hatred, they are dead wrong. If they believe my victory at the polls was a victory for their hatred, they are dead wrong. I have no tolerance for their hatred and I will not allow them to pretend that I support their twisted views."

If he really condemns their racism, then now is the time to make that kind of statement in clear, unquestionable terms. The only downside I can see to such a statement is that he may lose the support of people who believe he supports their racist ideals. If their support is that important to him, then he certainly confirms some of the worst suppositions about him.
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Old 18th November 2016, 05:24 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.
Sounds like a case of the Duncan Anderson Effect (Allegedly in one match the soccer player was shown a red card and responded "If I'm to be accused of it I might as well as done it" and then knocked out the referee.")

Of slightly more and disturbing interest are these remarks from Kanye West, discussed by Snopes:

Quote:
Thank you ... thatís a woman right there, saying ďI love you,Ē after I just said that there was things that I liked about Trumpís campaign. Thatís not supposed to happen, right? Case in point. I guess weíre just not gonna sell out the rest of the tour now.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/11/18/kan...-donald-trump/

And this 'document' that turned up in my inbox, I find the opening disclaimer amusing:

Quote:
[Content warning: hate crimes, Trump, racism. I have turned off comments to keep out bad people who might be attracted by this sort of thing. Avoid sharing in places where this will attract the wrong kind of attention, as per your best judgment. Please donít interpret anything in this article to mean that Trump is not super terrible]

[Epistemic status: A reduction of a complicated issue to only 8000 words, because nobody would read it if it were longer. I think this is true but incomplete. I do not deny that Trump is being divisive and abusing identity politics in more subtle ways. I will try to discuss missing parts at more length later.]
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16...l-crying-wolf/
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Old 18th November 2016, 05:48 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If they're inspired to be racists because they were called racists then they're even bigger idiots than I thought.
I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it.

Again, Many people on the left connected Bush with Hitler. Just likening someone to Nazis doesn't make you a racist. What makes you think that the authors of this graffitti are pro Trump Trump-inspired racists?
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Old 18th November 2016, 05:53 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm talking specifically about the graffitti that connects Trump with Nazism. Without interviewing the perpetrators, it's impossible to say whether they were inspired to celebrate his racism or denounce it.
Ah, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I'm speed-reading all these threads and my think can't brain sometimes.
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:24 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ah, ok. Sorry for the confusion. I'm speed-reading all these threads and my think can't brain sometimes.
No worries, glad to clear it up. I'm just relieved to dodge an argument with the king of arguments himself :P
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Old 18th November 2016, 06:31 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
One step that I'd highly recommend- Denounce the KKK parade in NC celebrating his victory as a victory for white supremacy.

A statement similar to the one made by the NC GOP would be fine.

If it were me, I'd go farther with something like:

"I do not stand for white supremacy or white nationalism, my campaign and my deepest desire have been to make America great for all Americans, regardless of their skin color, religion, sexuality or where their ancestors came from. If the North Carolina KKK believes that I support their hatred, they are dead wrong. If they believe my victory at the polls was a victory for their hatred, they are dead wrong. I have no tolerance for their hatred and I will not allow them to pretend that I support their twisted views."

If he really condemns their racism, then now is the time to make that kind of statement in clear, unquestionable terms. The only downside I can see to such a statement is that he may lose the support of people who believe he supports their racist ideals. If their support is that important to him, then he certainly confirms some of the worst suppositions about him.
Well said.
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Old 18th November 2016, 08:47 PM   #199
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I'd say at least half of the cabinet or agency head picks so far are doing a great job of dispelling any illusions that the hateful rhetoric was just a ploy to get elected and then govern in an inclusive, enlightened fashion.

Jeff Sessions, who once tried to use the Voting Rights Act to punish black people for voting, as Attorney General illustrates the point quite nicely.
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Old 18th November 2016, 09:23 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
I'd say at least half of the cabinet or agency head picks so far are doing a great job of dispelling any illusions that the hateful rhetoric was just a ploy to get elected and then govern in an inclusive, enlightened fashion.

Jeff Sessions, who once tried to use the Voting Rights Act to punish black people for voting, as Attorney General illustrates the point quite nicely.
The Sessions appointment has me wondering if I made the wrong bet on Trump pursuing prosecution of Clinton. He's in the background but he's bosom buddies, politically, with Bannon/Bossie/Coulter - the troika of Hillary Hate.
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