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Old 14th December 2016, 01:14 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Thanks for addressing that one-off.
You're welcome!
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Old 14th December 2016, 04:28 PM   #322
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I suspect it's also confirmation bias at play here. There are hate crimes committed every day, and have been for as long as there have been humans. For example, the news reports that someone wrote "Darkies back to Africa! Hail Trump!!!" on the wall of a black church. Is that because Trump was elected? Maybe. But I would suggest that the same person would have only wrote "Darkies back to Africa!" 2 years ago, and it would barely have made the news.

The topic needs research, not random data points.
I'm not even convinced the topic needs research.
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Old 14th December 2016, 06:03 PM   #323
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Oh My

Teen accused of making up story of anti-Muslim harassment on NYC subway
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Old 14th December 2016, 06:33 PM   #324
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Looks like these hate crimes are dropping like flies, at least we still have Joe and Pat Jude from Cincinnati who had their home vandalized. Hopefully that story won't turn out to be something like The Judes were slumlords and this was a disgruntled tenant out for some eviction revenge.

Oh wait

What's this ?

Noooooooooooo.
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Old 14th December 2016, 07:05 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Thanks for addressing that one-off.
It's starting to look like it's one-offs all the way down.
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Old 14th December 2016, 07:21 PM   #326
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Lol, what a car wreck this thread is.

Of course the classic hate crime turned out to be a drug deal gone bad.
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Old 14th December 2016, 08:39 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Now she has been arrested for filing a false report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yasmin-s...on-nyc-subway/

Quote:
NEW YORK Police on Wednesday said a New Hyde Park teen made up a story about being verbally attacked on a New York City subway train because she is Muslim, CBS New York reported.

Yasmin Seweid, 18, was in police custody Wednesday afternoon, police told CBS New York.

Police told CBS News she was charged with filing a false report and obstructing governmental administration.

Seweid claimed that she was verbally assaulted by a group of three men on the subway around 10 p.m. Thursday, Dec. 1.
Well, so much for the "massive wave of hate crimes". More like a "massive wave of hoaxes and unverifiable claims". I did see a story about this and I was skeptical but I didn't comment on it here.

I am very-much Anti-Trump, but this sort of falsely "calling wolf" when there isn't a wolf just makes it harder for real victims, if there are any, to be believed. Get a grip snowflakes, and stop making **** up!!
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Old 14th December 2016, 09:56 PM   #328
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post

I am very-much Anti-Trump, but this sort of falsely "calling wolf" when there isn't a wolf just makes it harder for real victims, if there are any, to be believed. Get a grip snowflakes, and stop making **** up!!

I heard it refereed to a supply and demand problem. There is huge demand of racist marauding Trump supporters, not a big supply though. So the SJW left is now having to make the supply themselves.
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Old 15th December 2016, 12:09 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
PT is being sarcastic. He really thinks this was a real hate crime.
Thanks for clarifying, in a time of so much nonsense, it's hard to keep it all straight :9.
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Old 15th December 2016, 12:18 AM   #330
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When hate becomes a crime, only haters will hate. Or something.


ETA: When I do it, it isn't hate, it's "actioned annoyance."

Last edited by marplots; 15th December 2016 at 12:20 AM.
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Old 15th December 2016, 03:34 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Now she has been arrested for filing a false report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yasmin-s...on-nyc-subway/



Well, so much for the "massive wave of hate crimes". More like a "massive wave of hoaxes and unverifiable claims". I did see a story about this and I was skeptical but I didn't comment on it here.

I am very-much Anti-Trump, but this sort of falsely "calling wolf" when there isn't a wolf just makes it harder for real victims, if there are any, to be believed. Get a grip snowflakes, and stop making **** up!!
As long as we keep focusing on the fake ones, there's no massive wave.

If we look at the statistics, we see a spike after the election. Of course, they could all be fake, and a few posters no doubt wants us to believe that based on a few fake ones being revealed. Then again, one of those same posters flagged for the possibility of the massive wave being even massiverer due to hate crimes against white people being underreported. So, what to believe?

Personally, I'm going with the statistics.
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Old 15th December 2016, 07:14 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not even convinced the topic needs research.
I was being charitable.
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:00 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Now she has been arrested for filing a false report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yasmin-s...on-nyc-subway/



Well, so much for the "massive wave of hate crimes". More like a "massive wave of hoaxes and unverifiable claims". I did see a story about this and I was skeptical but I didn't comment on it here.

I am very-much Anti-Trump, but this sort of falsely "calling wolf" when there isn't a wolf just makes it harder for real victims, if there are any, to be believed. Get a grip snowflakes, and stop making **** up!!
And of course all the proven ones get ignored. Because they got resolved and no one cares anymore.
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:12 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As long as we keep focusing on the fake ones, there's no massive wave.

If we look at the statistics, we see a spike after the election. Of course, they could all be fake, and a few posters no doubt wants us to believe that based on a few fake ones being revealed. Then again, one of those same posters flagged for the possibility of the massive wave being even massiverer due to hate crimes against white people being underreported. So, what to believe?

Personally, I'm going with the statistics.
All those sightings of UFO's. Only a few debunked. Guess we should believe that we are being visited by ET? The numbers don't lie!!
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:24 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
All those sightings of UFO's. Only a few debunked. Guess we should believe that we are being visited by ET? The numbers don't lie!!
Yep, nobody is trying to diminish hate crimes in this thread at all. After all, hate crimes are just fantasies, like UFOs or ETs.
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:32 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
Now she has been arrested for filing a false report:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/yasmin-s...on-nyc-subway/



Well, so much for the "massive wave of hate crimes". More like a "massive wave of hoaxes and unverifiable claims". I did see a story about this and I was skeptical but I didn't comment on it here.

I am very-much Anti-Trump, but this sort of falsely "calling wolf" when there isn't a wolf just makes it harder for real victims, if there are any, to be believed. Get a grip snowflakes, and stop making **** up!!
Same here, false claims, like fake news, simply hand ammunition to people who want to claim that all claims are false, worse as you have pointed out it makes it harder for the real victims to be heard. The 'satanic panic' in the late 80s did more to help real pedophiles than their victims thanks to all the false claims that were made.
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:35 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As long as we keep focusing on the fake ones, there's no massive wave.
LOLZ!
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:36 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
Yep, nobody is trying to diminish hate crimes in this thread at all. After all, hate crimes are just fantasies, like UFOs or ETs.
Not diminishing them at all, when they happen.

The problem here is that twitter anecdotes are being explicitly treated as data. On a sceptics board.


Repeat after me: "The plural of anecdote is not data"
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Old 15th December 2016, 08:03 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Not diminishing them at all, when they happen.

The problem here is that twitter anecdotes are being explicitly treated as data. On a sceptics board.


Repeat after me: "The plural of anecdote is not data"

What?
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Old 16th December 2016, 04:21 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Not diminishing them at all, when they happen.

The problem here is that twitter anecdotes are being explicitly treated as data. On a sceptics board.


Repeat after me: "The plural of anecdote is not data"
We're discussing data. And you are attempting to diminish the importance of the data.
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Old 16th December 2016, 04:41 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As long as we keep focusing on the fake ones, there's no massive wave.

If we look at the statistics, we see a spike after the election. Of course, they could all be fake, and a few posters no doubt wants us to believe that based on a few fake ones being revealed. Then again, one of those same posters flagged for the possibility of the massive wave being even massiverer due to hate crimes against white people being underreported. So, what to believe?

Personally, I'm going with the statistics.
Isn't believing the lies and damned lies good enough for you?
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Old 16th December 2016, 06:58 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by uke2se View Post
As long as we keep focusing on the fake ones, there's no massive wave.
......................
I guess all we need then, are a few of the real ones, that we can, you know, verify, and then we can get to work on that massive wave..
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Old 16th December 2016, 07:42 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I guess all we need then, are a few of the real ones, that we can, you know, verify, and then we can get to work on that massive wave..
This has been the election where skepticism died.
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Old 16th December 2016, 09:17 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I guess all we need then, are a few of the real ones, that we can, you know, verify, and then we can get to work on that massive wave..
Well you could, you know, follow the links that show the verified events, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center. You could also use the FBI data that shows a sharp increase last year, especially in some specific categories.

'Spike' or 'wave' (say, what does a wave look like?), there was an increase and there does appear to be a connection to the election. The extent of 'massive' or how much was driven by the election might be debatable, but the fact that it happened and that at least some of it is, isn't realistically in question. They simply aren't all fakes.
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Old 17th December 2016, 09:55 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well you could, you know, follow the links that show the verified events, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center. You could also use the FBI data that shows a sharp increase last year, especially in some specific categories.

'Spike' or 'wave' (say, what does a wave look like?), there was an increase and there does appear to be a connection to the election. The extent of 'massive' or how much was driven by the election might be debatable, but the fact that it happened and that at least some of it is, isn't realistically in question. They simply aren't all fakes.
Last year?

Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election.

Try gain.

The SPLC's "data" have been discussed already (protip: it is not really data)
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Old 17th December 2016, 10:27 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Last year?

Massive Wave of Hate Crimes against minorities follows Trump election.

Try gain.

The SPLC's "data" have been discussed already (protip: it is not really data)

Sorry, it should have read 'in the last year' as in 2016. Also, the SPLC data is being refined to remove false reports by going through each to verify them, as my latest link reflects. This is cleaning up the data set, and it still shows an increase right after the election. Perhaps this will disappear with further refinement, but so far it hasn't. The ratios have stayed close as well.

And the implication being made here seems to be, 'if it wasn't right after the election day, it wasn't important' or 'original claim busted, nothing to see here', when the information still shows an increase in hate crimes tied to the campaign by echoing the exact demographics targeted by Trump's rhetoric. It's possible they're both being caused by the same mechanism instead of one contributing to the other, but I'm highly skeptical that the rhetoric didn't contribute to the raise in this type of crime. Normalizing hate and fear of a group is going to contribute. The fewer obstacles to a crime will increase the crime. This includes perceived social acceptance.

There is no reason to dismiss the entire issue. The assertion that they're all fake is false. The assertion they're all just liberals whining is false. The assertion that there has been no increase, by the best data we have, is false. Even if it's more convenient to hand-wave it, it's not true that this isn't an existent phenomena.
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Old 17th December 2016, 12:45 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well you could, you know, follow the links that show the verified events, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center. You could also use the FBI data that shows a sharp increase last year, especially in some specific categories.

'Spike' or 'wave' (say, what does a wave look like?), there was an increase and there does appear to be a connection to the election. The extent of 'massive' or how much was driven by the election might be debatable, but the fact that it happened and that at least some of it is, isn't realistically in question. They simply aren't all fakes.
How do you know there is not a connection to a Roll-Back on the price of corn flakes at Walmart?
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Old 17th December 2016, 12:55 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
How do you know there is not a connection to a Roll-Back on the price of corn flakes at Walmart?
Because of the largest increases being against Muslims, and Trump's rhetoric against Muslims was strong to the point of advocating for unconscionable and unconstitutional actions. You don't see a connection between the two?

Attacks on transgender people also sharply increased. Not as much of a connection there.

Do you concede that hate crimes have been on the raise, and that there are many examples of hate crimes and over the top bigotry that happened after the election? Let's try to get the basic agreed facts out there. Do you believe it's acceptable to dismiss the problem as a whole?

An edit to a post above, the FBI data is indeed from 2015, not 2016.
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Old 17th December 2016, 06:40 PM   #349
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I concede that hate crimes have been on the rise ever since hating became a crime...
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Old 17th December 2016, 08:37 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg View Post
I concede that hate crimes have been on the rise ever since hating became a crime...
This lets me know that you have no intention of arguing in good faith. Thanks for that at least.
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Old 17th December 2016, 09:01 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
This lets me know that you have no intention of arguing in good faith. Thanks for that at least.
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Old 18th December 2016, 07:26 AM   #352
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In my line of work, a transient spike in events is usually not a problem. We don't even bother to investigate them half the time. When we do investigate, they often turn out to be anomalies in data collection.

A massive wave, on the other hand, indicates a serious ongoing problem with major impact. We give it our full attention and work nonstop until we've mitigated the impact and solved the problem.

Even a small wave, in the sense of a swell in events above the baseline that persists for more than one reporting period is a cause for concern.

So that's what I think of, when I see "massive wave". There's been a swell of hate crimes running for a while now--probably since the term was invented. That's a problem we need to take seriously.

There may have been a transient spike after the election. At least, some people seem to have walked back to that claim. It might be interesting to investigate the spike, whatever. It's truthy, and that seems to be enough for some people.

But a "massive wave", indicating a serious worsening of the situation that demands substantial effort to understand and address? I think we can all agree that there was no such thing.
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Old 18th December 2016, 07:58 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post

There may have been a transient spike after the election. At least, some people seem to have walked back to that claim. It might be interesting to investigate the spike, whatever. It's truthy, and that seems to be enough for some people.

But a "massive wave", indicating a serious worsening of the situation that demands substantial effort to understand and address? I think we can all agree that there was no such thing.
In this post-truth era, I am beginning to despair of that.

The attitude of many here to skepticism is akin to erdogan' attitude to democracy; you take it to where you want to go and get off. It's a temporary tactic to be discarded when no longer useful.
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Old 18th December 2016, 10:08 AM   #354
Cl1mh4224rd
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In my line of work, a transient spike in events is usually not a problem. We don't even bother to investigate them half the time. When we do investigate, they often turn out to be anomalies in data collection.

This seems ridiculous in the current context. If a child sneezes into your mouth, a subsequent spike in your body temperature shouldn't be ignored. You've become ill and need to do something about it. Sure, it may be likely to pass on its own, but to pretend that nothing's wrong is stupidity of the highest order.

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Old 18th December 2016, 03:07 PM   #355
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
In my line of work, a transient spike in events is usually not a problem. We don't even bother to investigate them half the time. When we do investigate, they often turn out to be anomalies in data collection.

A massive wave, on the other hand, indicates a serious ongoing problem with major impact. We give it our full attention and work nonstop until we've mitigated the impact and solved the problem.

Even a small wave, in the sense of a swell in events above the baseline that persists for more than one reporting period is a cause for concern.

So that's what I think of, when I see "massive wave". There's been a swell of hate crimes running for a while now--probably since the term was invented. That's a problem we need to take seriously.

There may have been a transient spike after the election. At least, some people seem to have walked back to that claim. It might be interesting to investigate the spike, whatever. It's truthy, and that seems to be enough for some people.

But a "massive wave", indicating a serious worsening of the situation that demands substantial effort to understand and address? I think we can all agree that there was no such thing.
That's simply untrue. Reporting of hate crimes is one of those areas that the US doesn't do very well despite having good cause to measure it (there seems to be a lot of those areas in the US for some reason). However, the evidence we do have has seen increases and decreases. The last time there was an increase this dramatic (as in the increase in 2015) was after the 9/11 attacks. Whatever is driving the increase, it's had almost as much of an effect as 9/11. That's damn well worth investigating. 2011 was a ten year low.

The spike isn't 'truthy', it (by the best data we have right now) is just plain old fashioned true. A spike after a, dare I say, wave increase is worth figuring out, especially if the plausible mechanism at play could get worse.

And just what is the cost in calling out such bigotry as unacceptable anyway? Keeping such things socially unacceptable is something we should do anyway.

Basically, no, I disagree with your last line. It's worth it to figure this out and address it, because it could very well get worse.
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Old 18th December 2016, 03:24 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Because of the largest increases being against Muslims, and Trump's rhetoric against Muslims was strong to the point of advocating for unconscionable and unconstitutional actions. You don't see a connection between the two?

Attacks on transgender people also sharply increased. Not as much of a connection there.

Do you concede that hate crimes have been on the raise, and that there are many examples of hate crimes and over the top bigotry that happened after the election? Let's try to get the basic agreed facts out there. Do you believe it's acceptable to dismiss the problem as a whole?

An edit to a post above, the FBI data is indeed from 2015, not 2016.
You're under the impression that the constitution prohibits excluding foreign Muslims from immigrating?

It would be amusing to watch the founders trigger you to no end as they listed all the things you find unconscionable which they saw as not only permitted by the constitution they wrote, but absolutely obvious and basic steps to keep the nation as intended.
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Old 18th December 2016, 03:29 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post
You're under the impression that the constitution prohibits excluding foreign Muslims from immigrating?

It would be amusing to watch the founders trigger you to no end as they listed all the things you find unconscionable which they saw as not only permitted by the constitution they wrote, but absolutely obvious and basic steps to keep the nation as intended.
I know you're upset blacks can no longer be slaves, but that's something I'm happy to disappoint some of the founders on that point.

And yes, the constitution does indeed prevent that, and the Muslim registry.
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Old 21st December 2016, 11:13 AM   #358
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Speaking of hoaxes, youtube hoaxer claims he was booted off plane for speaking Arabic.

People want to boycott Delta because of course they do.
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Old 21st December 2016, 12:20 PM   #359
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/20/us...rmer.html?_r=0

More basic trolling. Why are the police reacting I thought that a few internet threats were not a big deal? So what if they doxed the jews?
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Old 21st December 2016, 03:16 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Well you could, you know, follow the links that show the verified events, such as the Southern Poverty Law Center. You could also use the FBI data that shows a sharp increase last year, especially in some specific categories.

'Spike' or 'wave' (say, what does a wave look like?), there was an increase and there does appear to be a connection to the election. The extent of 'massive' or how much was driven by the election might be debatable, but the fact that it happened and that at least some of it is, isn't realistically in question. They simply aren't all fakes.
Out of curiosity, has anybody actually looked at the FBI data being quoted by these journalist?
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