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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:40 AM   #121
Resume
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Here's a transcript of one of his speeches. I don't agree with all of it, but I think it's one of the best analyses of the election results.
Yeah, I've seen this analysis in other venues. Here's the thing; white working class folks were never a franchise exclusive to the democrats, even in an urban environment.
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Last edited by Resume; 2nd February 2017 at 09:42 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:42 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Think this needs to be put in perspective. I've not read much on specific numbers with BBC saying hundreds protesting and LA Times saying 1,500 protesting. Number of rioters numbered in the dozens to a couple hundred. UC Berkeley has 38,200 students enrolled for the year 2015, which is not to mention non-student population in the area. Or people from out of the local area showing up.

So would it be fair to say that at most 4% of Berkeley students were even interested enough to simply protest this event, with an even tinier percentage of those students causing trouble/rioting/burning **** etc. Assuming of course that all people participating are actually students there. Is that really a need for the pulling of federal funds?

Should we be setting behavior standards for the federal funds that are given? And who's going to set those standards for us..
Given the size of the university, and the small number of people participating in the protest, it should have been a simple matter for the campus police to provide adequate security. Everybody knows that protests stay peaceful when there is reasonable ratio of police to protesters (1 to 5, say). Perhaps it was an honest mistake in planning, but I suspect the Cal administration wouldn't have made such a mistake if a controversial left-winger had come to speak.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:42 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
Are you claiming he was shot by someone in opposition of their demonstration? Evidence?
erm, yeah...

Originally Posted by Guardian
The shooter was a Trump supporter who sent a Facebook message to Yiannopoulos asking for an autograph while waiting in line for the controversial event
On what are you basing your claim that it was "one of their own"?
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Last edited by caveman1917; 2nd February 2017 at 09:44 AM.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:44 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
I don't agree with your definition of a "bad person."
Are you arguing that you can be a good person and a racist who actively hurts minorities?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:45 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What your video shows is an armed Milo supporter walking into a protesting crowd, getting blocked and pushed back[*] by a couple of people in the crowd, and then opening fire on someone..
Well, that is certainly one "way' of looking at it.

What it actually shows is a solitary individual being swarmed by hoards of fanatics, with one running through the crowd and striking the victim, who protected himself the only way he could.

The fanatic chose poorly.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:46 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you arguing that you can be a good person and a racist who actively hurts minorities?
Probably.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:49 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
What the hell are you talking about? He speaks all over the place. He "powns" and "schools" fools and libtards on the youtubes all the doo-dah-day. His irresistible gayboy tour (or whatever he calls it) got cancelled on the last stop. He got paid, got his "message" (whatever that is) out, and will reap the PR rewards of this silly debacle for quite awhile.

We've spoken before on this issue and free speech doesn't mean you get to spew consequence free everywhere, all the time.
It doesn't mean you will be free from consequences, it means you have the right to speak freely. The guy has been denied that right.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:49 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
What your video shows is an armed Milo supporter walking into a protesting crowd, getting blocked and pushed back[*] by a couple of people in the crowd, and then opening fire on someone.

* which seems a rational response given the history of armed extreme right-wingers and crowds of people who disagree with them (for example Breivik).
This looks to be in a public space.

Do they have some justification for impeding this man being in a public space?

If not, then they shouldn't be impeding, physically initimidating, or assaulting people in a public space.

While I'm a rather strong advocate for incrementalism when it comes to escalation of force (I think the gun coming out was a bit hasty given the level of threat at that point), at the end of the day there is really only 1 step of escalation of force, which is the choice to use violence at all.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:51 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you arguing that you can be a good person and a racist who actively hurts minorities?
Where did this part come from? If you take that out, then the answer is yes. If you leave it in, then the answer becomes "it depends."
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:57 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
It doesn't mean you will be free from consequences, it means you have the right to speak freely. The guy has been denied that right.
Chris B.
No he wasn't. This was a promotional speaking tour for which he was paid to speak at a number of venues. This engagement was cancelled. His "message" can be heard at the click of a mouse.


ETA: I don't know if this particular speaking engagement was paid for by the university so I remove that claim.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:58 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Where did this part come from? If you take that out, then the answer is yes. If you leave it in, then the answer becomes "it depends."
That part comes from what most of us refer to as "reality".
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:58 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Think this needs to be put in perspective. I've not read much on specific numbers with BBC saying hundreds protesting and LA Times saying 1,500 protesting. Number of rioters numbered in the dozens to a couple hundred. UC Berkeley has 38,200 students enrolled for the year 2015, which is not to mention non-student population in the area. Or people from out of the local area showing up.

So would it be fair to say that at most 4% of Berkeley students were even interested enough to simply protest this event, with an even tinier percentage of those students causing trouble/rioting/burning **** etc. Assuming of course that all people participating are actually students there. Is that really a need for the pulling of federal funds?

Should we be setting behavior standards for the federal funds that are given? And who's going to set those standards for us..
I think that minimizes things a bit. Both from the population involved and the effect of the action in shutting down free speech. Imagine if it had been a little southern town of 38,000 rednecks and they responded to a black family moving in by having 1,500 KKK show up and burn a cross (albeit less than 1500 would actually be lighting fires)... we wouldn't be saying that it was 'at most 4% of the town turning up and even less burning stuff so there's no need for the Feds to take a look' - we'd be saying that it was a cesspit of hate and change is needed.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:59 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
This looks to be in a public space.

Do they have some justification for impeding this man being in a public space?

If not, then they shouldn't be impeding, physically initimidating, or assaulting people in a public space.
A bit like: suppose an armed KKKer walks into a Black Panthers meeting, can he expect everything to go over smoothly?

Quote:
While I'm a rather strong advocate for incrementalism when it comes to escalation of force (I think the gun coming out was a bit hasty given the level of threat at that point)
Can you point out when exactly the gun came out?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 09:59 AM   #134
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I had never heard of Milo until videos of BLM closing down one of his talks started making the rounds on Youtube.

Milo comes off to me as a real life troll. He is entertaining at times, but I think I would still not know who he was if his talks did not draw such dramatic, violent protests.

I do not expect people who disagree with him to not protest his event, but the violent, obstructive protests that I see feel like an assault on first amendment rights. The protesters are making themselves (and the left by extension) look bad, and making Milo look important than he really may be.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:00 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Pretty sure Hitler said something similar when he sent out the Brownshirts to disrupt and intimidate opponents speeches.

Sad to see it put forward on this forum.

("different tactics" - nice euphemism for fascist bully boy violence)
You'd be horrified by my grandfather, then. He actually shot Nazis out of the sky, and dropped bombs on them. Such intolerance!
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:04 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
A bit like: suppose an armed KKKer walks into a Black Panthers meeting, can he expect everything to go over smoothly?
what a terrible analogy...

This was a public space. while it appears that certain Jar jar protesters think that they "own" the space, that is not how it works.

The gun came out after the lone individual was assaulted by the Jar jar protester who came bounding across the public space at him.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:04 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
That part comes from what most of us refer to as "reality".
Do you care about racists who actively hurt majorities? What is the difference between a minority and a majority?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:07 AM   #138
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A bunch of people in black masks show up to a peaceful protest and start attacking everyone. Riot ensues. Liberals are blamed.

I can only blame the Liberals for allowing the provokers to succeed.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:07 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You'd be horrified by my grandfather, then. He actually shot Nazis out of the sky, and dropped bombs on them. Such intolerance!
That makes sense as a retort if the USA was currently in an actual civil war. However, if we are in a society that aspires to make changes via debate, persuasion and laws, then your retort is moronic (unless you wish that democrats and republicans actually were shooting each other... which is also kind of moronic).
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:07 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
No he wasn't. This was a promotional speaking tour for which he was paid to speak at a number of venues. This engagement was cancelled. His "message" can be heard at the click of a mouse.


ETA: I don't know if this particular speaking engagement was paid for by the university so I remove that claim.
What message did he deliver at Berkeley? I thought his event had been cancelled.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:09 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Sad doesn't even come close.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/P...C-10901829.php



Yet look who started all of the violence. Look who is being targeted. This is bad even for Berkeley.



I don't read Breitbart and I don't know who Milo is (I do now) and it is irrelevant.

More intolerance (to say the least) from the left. I'd say it was only a few individuals who ruined it, but it was not.

Dozens of masked students started fires, stormed barricades, threw bricks, fireworks and "smoking objects" at police, knocked over and vandalized a generator and light that were set up, smashed windows....I forget the rest.

I wonder if they were actually students at all.

I guess Berkeley, along with government officials all over the state, don't care that 74% of Californians are against sanctuary cities.

According to Berkeley's own newspaper....

http://news.berkeley.edu/2015/09/04/...y-flexibility/

Unfortunately only a sample size of over a thousand people, but...


I know 3 or 4 very liberal friends and none of them are for sanctuary cities. I've never heard anybody say otherwise actually.

Why would anyone want that? To give free reign of the entire state to illegals (there are millions here already in Cali...millions.), AND to have the taxpayers pay for their legal defense? Get stuffed!

I already expect some "Cali is stupid you should sink into the sea" posts - save it, you're preaching to the choir.

This state is completely out of control.

Any Californians here think making Cali a sanctuary state is a good idea? If so, please tell me why, especially if you actually pay taxes in this state.

Why am I asking - this state voted in Jerry Brown - AGAIN! Holy gawddam...
I'm not sure where you came up with your statistics. I'd bet that they were pulled out of someone's ass. But nevertheless I don't care what a 'majority' of people think and neither do you. I care about what is right. There was a time that a majority of people that thought slavery was OK. A majority of Muslims think Sharia is a good thing. A majority of American voters preferred Hillary Clinton. Get the point?

Right now with the Der Fuhrer acting like a total moron and his brownshirts trying to dehumanize people I think you can expect resistance.and I'm damn glad these people are resisting.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:10 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
What message did he deliver at Berkeley? I thought his event had been cancelled.
Chris B.
Yes, it was a speaking engagement that was cancelled. The first amendment doesn't guarantee speaking "events," just speech. He can (and does) speechify to his heart's content.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
what a terrible analogy...
Not at all.

Quote:
This was a public space. while it appears that certain Jar jar protesters think that they "own" the space, that is not how it works.
Yes, an armed KKKer walking into a public Black Panthers meeting, can he expect everything to go over smoothly?

Quote:
The gun came out after the lone individual was assaulted by the Jar jar protester who came bounding across the public space at him.
Evidence?

By your logic, can the "Jar jar protesters" now shoot "Police" when they get assaulted by them?
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Not at all.

By your logic, can the "Jar jar protesters" now shoot "Police" when they get assaulted by them?
I think you have that backwards, the question is whether the Police can shoot the Jar Jars when they assault the police and happily enough, the answer thus far has been no, they have not.

Quote:
Yes, an armed KKKer walking into a public Black Panthers meeting, can he expect everything to go over smoothly?
He did? Evidence? I need more detail
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
A bunch of people in black masks show up to a peaceful protest and start attacking everyone. Riot ensues. Liberals are blamed.

I can only blame the Liberals for allowing the provokers to succeed.
I think Milo (as well as Spencer and others) will happily take volunteers to protect their organizing efforts.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
That makes sense as a retort if the USA was currently in an actual civil war. However, if we are in a society that aspires to make changes via debate, persuasion and laws, then your retort is moronic (unless you wish that democrats and republicans actually were shooting each other... which is also kind of moronic).
We're in a culture war. The side that values tolerance is losing because it's tolerating too much. The options are to stop tolerating absolutely everything, or lose. If the other side wins there will be much less tolerance, as it does not like tolerance.

And I'm too polite to respond in kind to your gratuitous insults, but I will point out that you're not being very tolerant of my opinion. You already pick and choose who you tolerate, it seems.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Do you care about racists who actively hurt majorities? What is the difference between a minority and a majority?
Historical oppression.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:19 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Where did this part come from?
NoahFence said:

Quote:
You (general you) show intolerance to people based solely on race, religion, sexual orientation, or where they're from, and you're a bad person.
Highlights mine.

You said you disagreed with his definition. It stands to reason that you don't think being intolerant towards minorities, which definitely ends up hurting them, either directly or indirectly, is not incompatible with being a good person.

Quote:
If you leave it in, then the answer becomes "it depends."
I think we may have entirely incompatible value systems.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:20 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Do you care about racists who actively hurt majorities?
For myself: yes.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:21 AM   #150
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"This looks bad for democrats." No it does not. In the same manner the KKK is 100% behind Trump. These are the fringes.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:22 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Yes, it was a speaking engagement that was cancelled. The first amendment doesn't guarantee speaking "events," just speech. He can (and does) speechify to his heart's content.
LOL "speechify" I knew you had some humor in there somewhere.

I'm gonna concede your point because although I still don't think it was right to cancel his event, I agree with him not speaking there.

Yet if Berkeley shows some sort of habit of limiting extreme speakers to only those they agree with, I still see a problem.

Chris B.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:26 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
NoahFence said:



Highlights mine.

You said you disagreed with his definition. It stands to reason that you don't think being intolerant towards minorities, which definitely ends up hurting them, either directly or indirectly, is not incompatible with being a good person.
Intolerance isn't the same as actively hurting them. Quite clearly, the liberals in this thread think that making a speech that some minorities consider offensive is an example of intolerance. Sometimes, intolerance can help. If you're intolerant of bad behavior, or of identity politics, I think that's a good thing.

Quote:
I think we may have entirely incompatible value systems.
Well, mine is logically consistent. That will naturally be incompatible with a value system which is logically inconsistent.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:28 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
For myself: yes.
Even if all those racists are doing is stripping majorities of their unearned "privileges?"
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:29 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by Dumb All Over View Post
Milo has appeared at many campuses without the left starting riots.
And it's always the left that does this. But then they'll blame the right.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:31 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who gives a rip? We're supposed to be angels of virtue while the minority alt-right takes over the government and drags it toward the drain or WWIII, it's unclear which at this point.

And you start a thread whining about some protestors who have had enough! Color me unconcerned.
Lol

Proof the left supports this, I'm glad SG has the courage to admit it.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:32 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by banquetbear View Post
..."the left" didn't start a riot.

Some people started a riot.

And here's the thing. This won't be the last.

Get used to this America. As long as the Trump administration holds unlimited power and it treats the constitution as a doormat there will be people that will protest.

This is going to get ugly. Real ugly. I'm not going to condone the violence that will happen. I'm not going to defend what happened at Berkeley.

But we are in the middle of a propaganda war. And the Trump Administration will be doing exactly the same as what has already started to happen in this thread: they will use this as an example of how the "left hates free speech." And they will say this while they quietly and quickly work behind the scenes to dismantle the "checks and balances" that were once a hallmark of what was the United States of America.

It won't take a lot for the Trump Administration to escalate in response. And they will escalate. No amount of "milo could not have asked for better publicity" is going to mitigate that. We could all appeal for calm but there is so much fear and anxiety out there that if things didn't explode here, they would explode somewhere else. This isn't something anyone can control. Not until a proper form of leadership forms itself out of the disparate groups that are opposing the Trump regime.

The very least that we can do here is not to become mouthpieces for the Administration. Milo is a disgusting, repulsive human being, and we should not be helping him by being sucked into his talking points. Milo is a professional troll and getting people irrationally angry is what he does. He succeeded here. We don't need to signal boost his success.
More justification, bet this wouldn't happen in states that allow deadly force to protect property.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:33 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
We're in a culture war. The side that values tolerance is losing because it's tolerating too much. The options are to stop tolerating absolutely everything, or lose. If the other side wins there will be much less tolerance, as it does not like tolerance.

And I'm too polite to respond in kind to your gratuitous insults, but I will point out that you're not being very tolerant of my opinion. You already pick and choose who you tolerate, it seems.
I'm not saying "tolerate", I'm saying "argue non-violently".

You appear to be mistaking a societal culture war for an actual shooting war.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:33 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
LOL "speechify" I knew you had some humor in there somewhere.

I'm gonna concede your point because although I still don't think it was right to cancel his event, I agree with him not speaking there.

Yet if Berkeley shows some sort of habit of limiting extreme speakers to only those they agree with, I still see a problem.

Chris B.
I think Berkeley was wise to cancel; who knows how out of hand things might have turned out. But I do wish the invitation could've been honored, along with reasoned protests. Milo won here and it's too bad because he's kind of a ****.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:33 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by Wayward son View Post
Not going to happen. What is going to take control is an increasingly authoritarian Trump government which will gain more and more support from the middle who will soon be demanding an end to senseless violence and disorder. These idiots make it much, much easier for Republican senators and congress members (as well as Democrats in republican heavy areas and states) to support whatever the Trump administration does.
True, but the government may allow citizens to protect themselves and property.
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Old 2nd February 2017, 10:36 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Yes, but that takes maturity, which is something LIBERAL college kids aren't known for.


FIFY
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