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Old 20th March 2017, 04:18 AM   #1121
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
You forget, British is best. Our products are the best in the world. Who needs common standards and quality control.
Our cars, ships, motorbikes, locomotives, airliners, televisions etc were the best in the world. Foreign manufacturers didnít play fair.
Look at motorbikes, Japanese manufacturers seduced buyers with electric starters, disk brakes, 12 volt electrics, more performance, comfort and reliability. It was underhand.
You've forgotten the least sportsmanlike of all. Keeping the oil on the inside. If we'd only thought of that one first.
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:32 AM   #1122
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
You've forgotten the least sportsmanlike of all. Keeping the oil on the inside. If we'd only thought of that one first.
That oil stops corrosion - it's not a bug it's a feature
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:23 AM   #1123
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BBC Newsflash

Article 50 will be triggered on 29 March

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

Oh well, it was nice being part of the EU with all the advantages for both individuals and the economy at large. It will come as no surprise to you all that IMO Brexit will be an utter fiasco with the end "deal" exceeding our worst expectations
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:26 AM   #1124
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
BBC Newsflash

Article 50 will be triggered on 29 March

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

Oh well, it was nice being part of the EU with all the advantages for both individuals and the economy at large. It will come as no surprise to you all that IMO Brexit will be an utter fiasco with the end "deal" exceeding our worst expectations
Money quote:

In response to the news, Mr Tusk tweeted: "Within 48 hours of the UK triggering Article 50, I will present the draft Brexit guidelines to the EU27 Member States."

EU is manifestly ready. I can't say the same for UK.

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Old 20th March 2017, 05:39 AM   #1125
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We've got our guidelines!
You must have seen them!
They were the ones written in crayon, with point 4 being "EU gives us all a pony".
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:44 AM   #1126
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
We've got our guidelines!
You must have seen them!
They were the ones written in crayon, with point 4 being "EU gives us all a pony".
Do you know what Europeans do to ponies?

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B67D5W/the-...ers-B67D5W.jpg

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Old 20th March 2017, 05:47 AM   #1127
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
I agree with the highlighted part.... but disagree with the rest. The sense I get is that continental EU wants the UK to be clear on the kind of Brexit that it wants and first and foremost they want the process to get started. I don't get the sense that a hard Brexit is what is being pursued with much vigour.
The problem is, there are few viable alternatives between In and Out that would not lead to making concessions that would make a shambles of the EU enterprise. This makes Out the default if the UK stays its course. Any concessions are likely to be mostly in the area of letting displaced citizens carry on without uprooting their lives or careers. But the elephant in the room, relatively free market access, can only be a choice between the two extremes, In or Out, as In implies levels of integration the UK has explicitly rejected already.
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:48 AM   #1128
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Do you know what Europeans do to ponies?

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B67D5W/the-...ers-B67D5W.jpg

McHrozni
I've never understood the squeamishness about eating horse if, like me, you're willing to eat pig, sheep or cow
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:50 AM   #1129
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The problem is, there are few viable alternatives between In and Out that would not lead to making concessions that would make a shambles of the EU enterprise. This makes Out the default if the UK stays its course. Any concessions are likely to be mostly in the area of letting displaced citizens carry on without uprooting their lives or careers. But the elephant in the room, relatively free market access, can only be a choice between the two extremes, In or Out, as In implies levels of integration the UK has explicitly rejected already.
.....and yet we were repeatedly assured by the Leave campaign that we would continue to have unfettered access to the EEA

I don't know how many people voted Leave on that basis but they were sold a pup IMO.
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:53 AM   #1130
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According to a tweet by Alyn Smith MEP, the governments of Wales, N Ireland and Scotland weren't told about the triggering of Art 50 before the news was released to the media.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:14 AM   #1131
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The problem is, there are few viable alternatives between In and Out that would not lead to making concessions that would make a shambles of the EU enterprise. This makes Out the default if the UK stays its course. Any concessions are likely to be mostly in the area of letting displaced citizens carry on without uprooting their lives or careers. But the elephant in the room, relatively free market access, can only be a choice between the two extremes, In or Out, as In implies levels of integration the UK has explicitly rejected already.
Sure... but that is the choice of the UK government. It's not something that's being pushed by the EU.
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:22 AM   #1132
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
According to a tweet by Alyn Smith MEP, the governments of Wales, N Ireland and Scotland weren't told about the triggering of Art 50 before the news was released to the media.
Did anyone expect any different?
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Old 20th March 2017, 08:28 AM   #1133
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Did anyone expect any different?
One had expected that Ms. May and her government might have realised the damage they were doing to their own standing in the other home nations and have acted accordingly.

As a nationalist, I'm not disappointed that they failed to do so.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:16 AM   #1134
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Originally Posted by Amazer View Post
Sure... but that is the choice of the UK government. It's not something that's being pushed by the EU.
Agreed.
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Old 20th March 2017, 09:56 AM   #1135
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Money quote:

In response to the news, Mr Tusk tweeted: "Within 48 hours of the UK triggering Article 50, I will present the draft Brexit guidelines to the EU27 Member States."

EU is manifestly ready. I can't say the same for UK.

McHrozni
So much for Ceptimus "EU is not ready". (yes this is still reversing the burden , the UK has to present a plan, the EU does not, but it is funny to see that contrary to his claim, and in spite of the burden being on UK side, tehre still seems to be something ready).

Last edited by Aepervius; 20th March 2017 at 09:58 AM.
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Old 20th March 2017, 11:47 AM   #1136
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From elsewhere



Article 50 Day - what will you do?

Originally Posted by liverpoolmiss
It is soon that annual tradition in the English calendar, A50 day. Historians hypothesise it dates back to the year 2017 when a bunch of mad ****ers trashed the country, but all historical records of this were lost in the Great Collapse.

The tradition is for everyone on this day to do something reckless with consequences that are both long term and completely unknown.

I'm going to tie myself to a wind turbine blade and set it going. Will I be flung off? Will I just get dizzy? Will I be decapitated? No one knows! And that's the fun.
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:33 PM   #1137
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Try the Blindfold Motorway Dash.
Wear a blindfold, when you think it's the right moment dash across the motorway, try to reach the other side unscathed.
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Old 20th March 2017, 12:46 PM   #1138
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Try the Blindfold Motorway Dash.
Wear a blindfold, when you think it's the right moment dash across the motorway, try to reach the other side unscathed.
I think you should spin yourself round first, to attune your sense of direction to the Brexiteers'
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:25 PM   #1139
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From that same thread:

Originally Posted by Blackcountryboy
I have been reading the comments of Brexiteers, on the internet; they are euphoric. The only time there has been such euphoria in Britain was the outbreak of the First World War.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:39 PM   #1140
P.J. Denyer
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
That oil stops corrosion - it's not a bug it's a feature
And as it burns off the fins of an aircooled engine it provides a handy smokescreen at traffic lights.
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Old 20th March 2017, 11:17 PM   #1141
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What makes me laugh about the whole sad affair is that within 10 years or so, the UK will realize that the 1998 agreements with the PIRA were the demarcation of it's loss to the Irish, and not any sort of victory. After about 70 years of fighting and getting stomped, the PIRA realized that if it could make demographics and political circumstance an ally, then they could eventually rip Northern Ireland from the UK. And that is exactly what is to happen, and the UK can no longer do a damned thing to stop it.

Demographics and Brexit will rip Northern Ireland from the UK. That's the deal. What was negotiated to end a war in 1998, will be the tool by which the PIRA gains ultimate victory.

Strange, huh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

This is so sad for the UK:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-34830144.html

Last edited by Jules Galen; 20th March 2017 at 11:22 PM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:03 AM   #1142
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EU says talks should begin 4-6 weeks after A50 is triggered.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...50-on-29-march

Almost as if they knew UK will be desperate for a deal and wanted to maximize their leverage, really. Don, if you want to retire by 2020, I recommend you pour all of your savings into a stockpile of lubricant and then sell it for profit in excess of 300% in two years' time.

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Old 21st March 2017, 12:17 AM   #1143
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Originally Posted by Jules Galen View Post
What makes me laugh about the whole sad affair is that within 10 years or so, the UK will realize that the 1998 agreements with the PIRA were the demarcation of it's loss to the Irish, and not any sort of victory. After about 70 years of fighting and getting stomped, the PIRA realized that if it could make demographics and political circumstance an ally, then they could eventually rip Northern Ireland from the UK. And that is exactly what is to happen, and the UK can no longer do a damned thing to stop it.

Demographics and Brexit will rip Northern Ireland from the UK. That's the deal. What was negotiated to end a war in 1998, will be the tool by which the PIRA gains ultimate victory.

Strange, huh?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement

This is so sad for the UK:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-34830144.html
In other words a majority of the population will come to support a United Ireland, and that will be achieved peacefully. What's wrong with that? Why do you call it "ripping" the UK? The only thing that is a "rip" is the border that divided Ireland for a century. If Scotland too chooses independence peacefully and democratically, will you say that the Scots are ripping the UK apart? Why not acknowledge in that event: it is the wish of the people that the union should come to an end?

During the Troubles, unionists used to claim: the IRA use the gun because they and their cause can never win using the ballot box. If the nationalists do in fact attain their aims using the peaceful constitutional route, what's your problem?

I too am applying for a Republic of Ireland passport, in defiance of this Brexit rubbish, on the strength of my grandmother who was born in Co Antrim, of Protestant descent, during the nineteenth century; and was as hostile to Irish independence as it is possible to be. I think that is poetic justice, and it is neither violent nor in my opinion "sad".

The United Kingdom is essentially an imperial structure. The Empire died in 1956, when the UK was restrained by the USA from chastising Egypt. It was then only a matter of time until the union also dissolved. Let us be thankful if it comes to a peaceful end, rather than a bloody and violent one. Unlike Wordsworth when he contemplated the Extinction of the Venetian Republic, I have no inclination to
... grieve when even the Shade
Of that which once was great is pass'd away.

Last edited by Craig B; 21st March 2017 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 12:42 AM   #1144
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
In other words a majority of the population will come to support a United Ireland, and that will be achieved peacefully. What's wrong with that? Why do you call it "ripping" the UK? The only thing that is a "rip" is the border that divided Ireland for a century. If Scotland too chooses independence peacefully and democratically, will you say that the Scots are ripping the UK apart? Why not acknowledge in that event: it is the wish of the people that the union should come to an end?

During the Troubles, unionists used to claim: the IRA use the gun because they and their cause can never win using the ballot box. If the nationalists do in fact attain their aims using the peaceful constitutional route, what's your problem?

I too am applying for a Republic of Ireland passport, in defiance of this Brexit rubbish, on the strength of my grandmother who was born in Co Antrim, of Protestant descent, during the nineteenth century; and was as hostile to Irish independence as it is possible to be. I think that is poetic justice, and it is neither violent nor in my opinion "sad".

The United Kingdom is essentially an imperial structure. The Empire died in 1956, when the UK was restrained by the USA from chastising Egypt. It was then only a matter of time until the union also dissolved. Let us be thankful if it comes to a peaceful end, rather than a bloody and violent one. Unlike Wordsworth when he contemplated the Extinction of the Venetian Republic, I have no inclination to
... grieve when even the Shade
Of that which once was great is pass'd away.
I got no problems with any of this, and I think that NI's future is quite bright compared to it's past. And i am glad the ultimate resolution will be peaceful. But, the 1998 Good Friday Agreement - which was brought about by Force of the PIRA in no small part - was instrumental in setting the stage for NI's future departure from the UK.

After 70-years-or-so of being beaten up by the British (and the Protestants), the PIRA did it right: they figured out how to fight the British and they figured out how to make a peace that was ultimately beneficial to them from a long-term perspective. I mean, after you fought for over 70 years, what's 30-or-so more years in the big scheme of things. It's a long war...and the PIRA kept its focus.

Nevertheless, there are a lot of ex-PIRA people that don't even fully appreciate what was negotiated in 1998 and what it will mean for the future or NI. These types - these "shoot 'em up" simpletons, see winning wars as nothing but body counts and "Flag Planting". They totally missed it....and probably still don't see it.

Seriously, I saw this coming from as far back as 2011 after reading an article entitled, "IRA vs. Al Qaeda: I Was Wrong' in the exiled written by the "War Nerd". http://exiledonline.com/wn-38-ira-vs...a-i-was-wrong/

I'm sure that people who were actually paying attention saw it as far back as 1998 - when it happened!

An amazing development.

Last edited by Jules Galen; 21st March 2017 at 12:45 AM.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:32 AM   #1145
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A group of 72 MPs have written to the BBC accusing it of being pessimistic and skewed in its Brexit coverage - in the months since the vote on the EU.

In a letter to the director general, they said the BBC is "unfairly representing" Leave voters by focusing on those who regret their decision.

The MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

Threatening the BBC?

Seems they are learning from Trump.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:37 AM   #1146
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
A group of 72 MPs have written to the BBC accusing it of being pessimistic and skewed in its Brexit coverage - in the months since the vote on the EU.

In a letter to the director general, they said the BBC is "unfairly representing" Leave voters by focusing on those who regret their decision.

The MPs warned the future of the BBC "will be in doubt" if it is not seen as a impartial broker.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39335904

Threatening the BBC?

Seems they are learning from Trump.
Nothing must stand in the way of the Brexit narrative that "everything is OK and everything will be great after we have rid ourselves of the albatross which is the EU"
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:47 AM   #1147
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I'm quite jealous of people who have the right to an Irish passport, or indeed any other passport at all. I don't. My only way out of this mess is if a Scottish passport becomes possible.
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Old 21st March 2017, 02:49 AM   #1148
The Don
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I'm quite jealous of people who have the right to an Irish passport, or indeed any other passport at all. I don't. My only way out of this mess is if a Scottish passport becomes possible.
How dare you attempt to shirk your responsibility to dig the Leave supporters out of the ever-deeper hole they appear to be digging for themselves
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:20 AM   #1149
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post

Seems they are learning from Trump.
I bet this is closer to the money that you might think. All of those political spin doctors will be watching Trump closely to see just how much you can get away with.
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:26 AM   #1150
Jules Galen
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I bet this is closer to the money that you might think. All of those political spin doctors will be watching Trump closely to see just how much you can get away with.
I think Ronald Reagan got away with a lot more than Trump ever will. His opening Presidential Campaign Speech still sets the low-water mark for American Politics in the last century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reagan...ghts%22_speech
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:37 AM   #1151
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Do you know what Europeans do to ponies?

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/B67D5W/the-...ers-B67D5W.jpg

McHrozni
Indeed I do - I ate one of those Tesco Lasagnas
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Old 21st March 2017, 03:45 AM   #1152
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I've never understood the squeamishness about eating horse if, like me, you're willing to eat pig, sheep or cow
I actually find it rather tasty But as I understand it people of Anglo-Saxon descent have a problem with eating what they see as companion animals - horses, dogs, cats, etc. I believe I mentioned you guys are weird a couple of times now

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Old 21st March 2017, 03:50 AM   #1153
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
The problem is, there are few viable alternatives between In and Out that would not lead to making concessions that would make a shambles of the EU enterprise. This makes Out the default if the UK stays its course. Any concessions are likely to be mostly in the area of letting displaced citizens carry on without uprooting their lives or careers. But the elephant in the room, relatively free market access, can only be a choice between the two extremes, In or Out, as In implies levels of integration the UK has explicitly rejected already.
The only thing the UK explicitly rejected was EU membership, and that only by a small plurality of the electorate. There was no consensus sought, let alone reached in UK about EEA or Customs union. This is a pet project of the PM and her goons who weren't able to look into the dangers of leaving without a deal a month after saying leaving no deal would be preferable to leaving with a bad deal. UK endorsed the level of integration it already reached.

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Old 21st March 2017, 04:21 AM   #1154
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The only thing the UK explicitly rejected was EU membership, and that only by a small plurality of the electorate. There was no consensus sought, let alone reached in UK about EEA or Customs union. This is a pet project of the PM and her goons who weren't able to look into the dangers of leaving without a deal a month after saying leaving no deal would be preferable to leaving with a bad deal. UK endorsed the level of integration it already reached.

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I guess if people accept that the primary reason for leaving the EU was to "get control over immigration" then I suppose it flows that leaving the EEA is inevitable too because free flow of people is a prerequisite for membership.

The thing is that it's not that clear what the drivers behind Brexit were. For every Leave campaigner saying it was about immigration, there's another saying that it's not a big factor and instead it's about free trade or being free of EU regulations (either specific ones or to be generally free of "foreign interference") or something else entirely. It was a bit like a buffet where people could pick what they wanted or indeed just vote Leave to cock a snook at the establishment.

IMO there's no doubt that a lot of Leave voters would be unhappy with a version of Brexit which left us with the free flow of EU citizens but then again those same leave voters are likely to be equally unhappy if post-Brexit net migration does not reduce significantly. Of course a majority of Leave voters may not be a majority of the population at large.

I suppose the only thing in favour of a "diamond hard" out-out-out Brexit is that it's likely to give nearly all Leave voters something they wanted (even the ones who voted Leave just to create chaos ).
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:31 AM   #1155
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I guess if people accept that the primary reason for leaving the EU was to "get control over immigration" then I suppose it flows that leaving the EEA is inevitable too because free flow of people is a prerequisite for membership.

The thing is that it's not that clear what the drivers behind Brexit were. For every Leave campaigner saying it was about immigration, there's another saying that it's not a big factor and instead it's about free trade or being free of EU regulations (either specific ones or to be generally free of "foreign interference") or something else entirely. It was a bit like a buffet where people could pick what they wanted or indeed just vote Leave to cock a snook at the establishment.

IMO there's no doubt that a lot of Leave voters would be unhappy with a version of Brexit which left us with the free flow of EU citizens but then again those same leave voters are likely to be equally unhappy if post-Brexit net migration does not reduce significantly. Of course a majority of Leave voters may not be a majority of the population at large.

I suppose the only thing in favour of a "diamond hard" out-out-out Brexit is that it's likely to give nearly all Leave voters something they wanted (even the ones who voted Leave just to create chaos ).
The referendum question was unambiguous:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

The only thing it set out to do was to answer the question whether UK should leave the EU or not. It provides us with no information about whether this is about controlling immigration or standards or maybe about providing paychecks to the members of the European parliament or about EU flag flying alongside the Union jack. As such we should avoid any conjecture about "what drove Brexit". We should instead acknowledge we don't know in any acceptable democratic way what drove voters to go for Brexit and accept there is no democratic mandate to do anything, except maybe to exit the EU without giving up on all aspects of membership that can still be retained.

After all, the electorate did know about what membership entailed in 1972 and voted in favor. It also knew and had the ability to influence what membership evolved into since then. You can't just trump that on conjecture "uh, well, most people I talked to say X was the problem, so we should do that" or maybe "newspapers mainly focus on Y, so we should do that instead". You don't run a democratic state based on rumors, hearsay or newspaper articles. One couldn't manage even a single person household in that way, let alone a major country.

This is how irresponsible the British government is.

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Old 21st March 2017, 04:37 AM   #1156
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I actually find it rather tasty But as I understand it people of Anglo-Saxon descent have a problem with eating what they see as companion animals - horses, dogs, cats, etc. I believe I mentioned you guys are weird a couple of times now

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Well, there was the whole furore about horsemeat in the burgers at certain establishments. On one hand, sure, if you advertise 100% beef and it turns out to be horse, that is outright false advertising, fair enough. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong with horse meat per se. One will find it on many menus around europe as an actual dish.
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:38 AM   #1157
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The continued drop in the value of the pound has resulted in the CPI measure of inflation creeping up to 2.3% - the RPI measure (which includes mortgage interest payments) is just over 3%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909
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Old 21st March 2017, 04:40 AM   #1158
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Well, there was the whole furore about horsemeat in the burgers at certain establishments. On one hand, sure, if you advertise 100% beef and it turns out to be horse, that is outright false advertising, fair enough. Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong with horse meat per se. One will find it on many menus around europe as an actual dish.
The problem with undocumented horse meat is that horses are also used for racing. Those horses can be laced with hormones and medicines (antibiotics) illegal for animals intended for human consumption. Illegal horse meat can come from such animals, so the furor was rather justified, irrespective of your feelings towards the tasty, tasty horses

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Old 21st March 2017, 04:43 AM   #1159
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
The continued drop in the value of the pound has resulted in the CPI measure of inflation creeping up to 2.3% - the RPI measure (which includes mortgage interest payments) is just over 3%

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39337909
Pound holds steady at about 1.15 Euros to the pound. It lost about 7% of its' value permanently, I think.

I don't advice you calculate that in real terms to see how much Brexit cost you already, you'll likely get angry. I know I would.

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Old 21st March 2017, 05:23 AM   #1160
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The problem with undocumented horse meat is that horses are also used for racing. Those horses can be laced with hormones and medicines (antibiotics) illegal for animals intended for human consumption. Illegal horse meat can come from such animals, so the furor was rather justified, irrespective of your feelings towards the tasty, tasty horses

McHrozni
Sure. QC needs to pervade the food industry. My point is, however, that there is nothing per se wrong with horse meat as a foodstuff.

For most, the squeamishness about it arises not from any quality consideration, but from a rose tinted conception of Dobbin wearing a straw hat and looking cute.
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