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Old 15th February 2017, 04:09 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Once we've stopped uncontrolled immigration from the EU of unskilled migrants, we'll be able to allow immigrants in from all over the world providing they have the skills we want. That will include Australian nationals. Please explain why you think this is a lie.
Because we can do the second part now?
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:16 AM   #282
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And, of course, we still need unskilled labour.
The idea that these people are coming over here "just because" is a nonsense that needs to die a fiery death.
They come here because there is work to be done.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:19 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There's nothing to stop EU people still coming here after Brexit, providing they still want to and they have the skills that we want.
Why would they come here today if they didn't have a job here?
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:20 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And, of course, we still need unskilled labour.
The idea that these people are coming over here "just because" is a nonsense that needs to die a fiery death.
They come here because there is work to be done.
Aha ! But what you fail to realise is that if they don't come over, employers will have to entice those already working here to do the work by raising wages, improving conditions, cutting hours and so forth which will apparently help the UK to become more competitive on the global stage - for reasons that elude me
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:22 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Why would they come here today if they didn't have a job here?
The weather.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:27 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
And, of course, we still need unskilled labour.
The idea that these people are coming over here "just because" is a nonsense that needs to die a fiery death.
They come here because there is work to be done.
The whole thing is nonsense on stilts. The idea somehow that we can kick out a Romanian cleaner and replace them with an Indian engineer now that we are leaving the EU is ridiculous on its face. And a lie.

Is the Indian engineer going to clean toilets here?
If there is demand for the Indian engineer to do engineering then why on Earth should their admittance to the UK be based on kicking out someone else first?
Is kicking out a Spanish nurse and replacing them with a Bangladeshi nurse somehow of benefit to us?
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:29 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
I have never said that all Brexit voters were Little Englanders. When I talk about them I am talking about a specific subset. But there are plenty in urban areas too. They just tend to be few of them in the middle of big cities proportionally.

Some people who voted were more your BNP EDL NF types. These are not Little Englanders typically. They are just your outright racists.
It does seem to hold that in many areas with high number of immigrants say 5% people tended to vote for remain. It is the fear of "them" from the false narrative that seems to have fed into a lot of people's decision to vote leave. When people know the truth they are not as scared or even scared at all about immigration.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:41 AM   #288
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And the other thing about housing and infrastructure we in fact have plenty of housing, just in the wrong places! People often think the extreme problems seen in the SE of the UK are the same everywhere.

If you want to do something about the issues the SE has with housing and infrastructure there are much better solutions than coming out of the EU. Indeed if we are expecting the jobs the EU nationals do now to be done by UK folk we will see an increase in demand for housing and infrastructure ion the SE. The reason for this is that UK folk won't accept living 8 to a room, with one bathroom and one kitchen between 40 people. Lots of EU migrant workers will accept that because they see the UK as a temporary stay and they want to save as much money as they can. UK folk tend to want to live with their family and have their own place (rent or purchase).
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Old 15th February 2017, 05:22 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And the other thing about housing and infrastructure we in fact have plenty of housing, just in the wrong places! People often think the extreme problems seen in the SE of the UK are the same everywhere.

If you want to do something about the issues the SE has with housing and infrastructure there are much better solutions than coming out of the EU. Indeed if we are expecting the jobs the EU nationals do now to be done by UK folk we will see an increase in demand for housing and infrastructure ion the SE. The reason for this is that UK folk won't accept living 8 to a room, with one bathroom and one kitchen between 40 people. Lots of EU migrant workers will accept that because they see the UK as a temporary stay and they want to save as much money as they can. UK folk tend to want to live with their family and have their own place (rent or purchase).
As you point out immigrants come here to work. The come to the areas with the lowest unemployment because businesses can not get local people with the expertise and/or willingness to do the job.

This "modest rise" "influx","flood" or whatever term you use puts pressure on local services. However this is minor compared to the pressure that would be put if UK citizens were compulsory relocated (benefits stopped unless they moved) to take up the jobs. Young single Europeans (including Brits) will happily travel to work. If this was stopped and the older unemployed Brits were forced to relocate from the areas of high unemployment,k they will want to move with their families. This will put even more pressure on services in the areas where jobs are being created than we currently see

Part of the problem is that the recent Governments have not intervened in the market to allow councils to give incentives for new businesses to establish in areas of the highest unemployment. Instead they see competition between counsels as the way forward. London and the South East is such a big draw that it is where most new businesses will want to locate. It is job creation that has created any infrastructure problems. Unless the Government does something to move those jobs (the preferred solution) or improve the infrastructure in the areas the jobs are created (the alternative) things will not change. Brexit will certainly not help unless it does so by moving jobs out of the UK.

Last edited by Lothian; 15th February 2017 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 15th February 2017, 05:33 AM   #290
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Just a little aside observation:

Today I received my Annual Tax Summary for 2015-2016, and the "How your tax was spent in 2015-2016" shows that I paid a paltry £171 to the UK contribution to the EU budget, and I am a higher-rate tax payer. This is peanuts; I'd happily pay more, a lot more.
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:28 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by Blue Bubble View Post
Just a little aside observation:

Today I received my Annual Tax Summary for 2015-2016, and the "How your tax was spent in 2015-2016" shows that I paid a paltry £171 to the UK contribution to the EU budget, and I am a higher-rate tax payer. This is peanuts; I'd happily pay more, a lot more.
Don't worry you will.


If the WTO tariffs apply you will be spending £585 extra a year on your shopping never mind the other benefits the EU gives us that you will have to pay to replace.
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:54 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I don't need evidence for self-evident truths.
Wallpaper words. To those with actual economic expertise the fact that Brexit will be an economic disaster for the UK is also self-evident.
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:14 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Wallpaper words. To those with actual economic expertise the fact that Brexit will be an economic disaster for the UK is also self-evident.
The people you mention were largely the ones for whom it was self evident that Britain would not vote to leave, and that President Trump could never even be chosen as the Republican candidate, let alone win the presidential race.

In other words they were wrong.
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:17 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The people you mention were largely the ones for whom it was self evident that Britain would not vote to leave, and that President Trump could never even be chosen as the Republican candidate, let alone win the presidential race.

In other words they were wrong.
Another lie. Is that a dozen now?
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Old 15th February 2017, 09:49 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
In the days of empire there were no restrictions on imperial subjects coming to the UK. What has changed?
Quite simply that the EU isn't the British Empire.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:30 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The people you mention were largely the ones for whom it was self evident that Britain would not vote to leave, and that President Trump could never even be chosen as the Republican candidate, let alone win the presidential race.

In other words they were wrong.
Nope, a lot were worried that Brexit and Trump would be disastrous for the UK and US. There is a difference.

Where happened to the £350-million a week?
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:48 AM   #297
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I see the EU bastards are looking to fine us for breaching safe air pollution levels. Sooner we get out of this damn union and can get back to poisoning the population with impunity the better.
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Old 15th February 2017, 12:08 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
It does seem to hold that in many areas with high number of immigrants say 5% people tended to vote for remain. It is the fear of "them" from the false narrative that seems to have fed into a lot of people's decision to vote leave. When people know the truth they are not as scared or even scared at all about immigration.
That certainly is my experience - living in a rural area, and working in a metropolitan area.
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Old 15th February 2017, 12:29 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Quite simply that the EU isn't the British Empire.
Sigh. There were admirable upsides to the British Empire. There were lots of horrible downsides to it also.

It matters not a whit. The Empire is long gone, Britannia does not rule the waves, nor has for decades thanks to government evisceration of their defence forces, the UK is not a world power.

Live with it.

I am not even british, but I can see how successive governments in the UK chose to sabotage their own country. The UK could have been a world leader. It chose to decline the opportunity.
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Old 15th February 2017, 12:41 PM   #300
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Just saying.

https://twitter.com/SKZCartoons/stat...57305591058432
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Old 15th February 2017, 12:53 PM   #301
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appears mucho all of those rape claims farage used were fake.
the pledge to fishermen ain't gonna happen.
there isn't much left of the promises boris, gove and farage made.
no wonder there wasn't anything on the white paper, leave eu join wto, is only four words long.
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Old 15th February 2017, 01:04 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
George Osborne has warned he would be forced to introduce an emergency Budget with tax hikes and spending cuts if the UK votes to leave the European Union.
Which he would have been if the existing deficit target stood. Of course it's been let rip instead after he felt the need to resign.

"There are 177 EU regulations about pillows."
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Old 15th February 2017, 01:15 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Sigh. There were admirable upsides to the British Empire.
The way some Brits tell it.

Quote:
There were lots of horrible downsides to it also.
Agreed.

Quote:
It matters not a whit. The Empire is long gone, Britannia does not rule the waves, nor has for decades thanks to government evisceration of their defence forces, the UK is not a world power.
You seem to imply that the UK could have afforded to remain a world power after two World Wars. Would they have made India pay for it?

Quote:
Live with it.
I'm glad I never had to live with an effort to keep the British Empire. The French tried to keep theirs and look where it got them.

Quote:
I am not even british, but I can see how successive governments in the UK chose to sabotage their own country. The UK could have been a world leader. It chose to decline the opportunity.
The NHS, university education for the masses, no conscription. Not exactly sabotage. And what was lost?
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Old 15th February 2017, 01:31 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The way some Brits tell it.
Like it or not, there were. That is not to conceal the frankly awful things they did.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
You seem to imply that the UK could have afforded to remain a world power after two World Wars. Would they have made India pay for it?
Of course they would if it were even vaguely possible. However, by then the empire had already functionally flung itself apart, so it was useless.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I'm glad I never had to live with an effort to keep the British Empire. The French tried to keep theirs and look where it got them.
Brexit is a direct result of that thinking. Brexit has no effect on foreign migrants from non-EU territories. All of those repulsive brown people will keep on arriving.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
The NHS, university education for the masses, no conscription. Not exactly sabotage. And what was lost?
Turing. A man who broke the Nazi codes and was instrumental in winning the war. What was his reward? Trial and conviction for the flaw of being gay, chemical castration, and eventual despairing suicide. Such are the rewards for serving the british former empire.

How nice.
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Old 15th February 2017, 01:52 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The people you mention were largely the ones for whom it was self evident that Britain would not vote to leave, and that President Trump could never even be chosen as the Republican candidate, let alone win the presidential race.

In other words they were wrong.
It was self evident to economist because they saw it as a disaster. But they did not count with people being idiot and chasing after 350m a week or pretension that UK does not control its immigration, when as mentioned above and as shown in the graph, the non EU migration also grew, and the UK did nothing to slow it down. Only bad economic time slowed it down.

But more to the point, when I want an advise on polling or who will be elected as president in the US I don't ask an economist, I ask gallup or nate silver. When i want to know the possible effect of stuff like brexit, I don't ask gallup or the people in the street or nate silver, I ask an economist.

So your comparison and contention that it was "the same people" is downright terminally baseless.

But hey since you do not trust the economist or probably any expert, no wonder you can't make a damn difference between polls and economist estimate.

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Old 15th February 2017, 03:36 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by imodium View Post
appears mucho all of those rape claims farage used were fake.
the pledge to fishermen ain't gonna happen.
there isn't much left of the promises boris, gove and farage made.
no wonder there wasn't anything on the white paper, leave eu join wto, is only four words long.
The UK fishermen sold their quotas to the Spanish.

There is also the small matter that the quotas are set in an attempt to preserve the stocks, but are quite possibly set too high.

As an aside, that was one reason I am in favour of offshore windfarms. They act as reefs, and also would prevent trawling in their area, so would probably benefit the marine environment and fish stocks.
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Old 15th February 2017, 03:45 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Of course they would if it were even vaguely possible.
Why keep the British Empire?

Quote:
However, by then the empire had already functionally flung itself apart, so it was useless.
I have no idea what "funcionally flung itself apart" means.

Quote:
Brexit is a direct result of that thinking. Brexit has no effect on foreign migrants from non-EU territories. All of those repulsive brown people will keep on arriving.
Your point completely escapes me.

Quote:
Turing.
We lost Turing because we lost the Empire? Homosexuality was illegal during the Empire, and in many places outside it. Homophobia was the norm until quite recent times.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:09 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Why keep the British Empire?
No idea. The British ruling class thought it was a great idea. Why? I have no idea. Nobody else did.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
I have no idea what "funcionally flung itself apart" means.
When one chooses to commit genocide, one is done. The British empire tried it and they were done.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Your point completely escapes me.
Brexiteers are lost in the illusion that there is any such thing as a british empire anymore. It is long gone.

Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
We lost Turing because we lost the Empire? Homosexuality was illegal during the Empire, and in many places outside it. Homophobia was the norm until quite recent times.
Are you really going to attempt to make the disgusting attempt to excuse how Turing was treated? Really?
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:34 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Brexiteers are lost in the illusion that there is any such thing as a british empire anymore. It is long gone.
I have spoken (online) to more than one brexiteer who is absolutely certain that we can get it all back if we stop the evil EU from preventing it. It's inevitable, apparently. When we put the Great back into Britain. I really hope they aren't representative.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:45 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
I have spoken (online) to more than one brexiteer who is absolutely certain that we can get it all back if we stop the evil EU from preventing it. It's inevitable, apparently. When we put the Great back into Britain. I really hope they aren't representative.
How can anyone be that delusional? Not only will the Empire not return, the UK is likely to lose Scotland and Northern Ireland also.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:48 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
How can anyone be that delusional? Not only will the Empire not return, the UK is likely to lose Scotland and Northern Ireland also.
Because Britain is Great. We are better than all of those foreign types. If they are challenged on this, they will invariably fall back on pointing out that all those immigrants want to come here, because we're so Great. Again, I trust that this is not a majority viewpoint, nor indeed, I hope, a very significant minority.
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Old 15th February 2017, 04:59 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post

Where happened to the £350-million a week?
That's the gross figure. For the next two years, at least, we'll still be paying it to the EU.
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Old 15th February 2017, 05:52 PM   #313
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I don't agree with some of this but it's an analysis that ought to be read.

https://www.commonspace.scot/article...dnt-see-coming
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Old 15th February 2017, 05:57 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
No idea. The British ruling class thought it was a great idea. Why? I have no idea. Nobody else did.

When one chooses to commit genocide, one is done. The British empire tried it and they were done.

Brexiteers are lost in the illusion that there is any such thing as a british empire anymore. It is long gone.

Are you really going to attempt to make the disgusting attempt to excuse how Turing was treated? Really?
He was treated no differenty to any other homosexual at the time.
What has it got to do with Brexit?
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:26 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are you really going to attempt to make the disgusting attempt to excuse how Turing was treated? Really?
Of course not. I'm simply pointing out that it has no connection to the point in hand. Which is, you may recall, your original contention :

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
I am not even british, but I can see how successive governments in the UK chose to sabotage their own country. The UK could have been a world leader. It chose to decline the opportunity.
The UK did make that choice (eventually; we shouldn't forget Suez), but it wasn't in any sense sabotage. There's nothing we could gain by being a "world power" that would remotely justify the cost.
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:42 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
How can anyone be that delusional? Not only will the Empire not return, the UK is likely to lose Scotland and Northern Ireland also.
Northern Ireland's no loss any more, and Scotland wouldn't dare - they're dependent on English gold, don't you know. Bought and paid for - there are old songs about it so it must be true.
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Old 15th February 2017, 06:47 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's the gross figure. For the next two years, at least, we'll still be paying it to the EU.
Which is not quite encapsulated in "Why don't we give it to the NHS?", I'm sure you'll agree. That implies net, not gross.

Anyway, moving on to the next Remain lie, if you'd be so kind?
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Old 15th February 2017, 07:15 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with some of this but it's an analysis that ought to be read.

https://www.commonspace.scot/article...dnt-see-coming
Stuff will happen, no doubt about that, some of it unexpected. (I doubt Farage saw Irish unification coming out of it, but I'm starting to think it will.) I can't see any of it being good. Particularly bad, I suspect, is the extra inter-generational aggravation, of which there is more than enough already.

What comes across most clearly from the Leave side is their sheer vacuousness. Boris "Basil" Johnson promises us "jumbo trade deals", wtf? We'll have control over our non-EU immigration policy, like we already do. May says we'll be a more global Britain (wtf?) while presenting the two bared arses of Farage and Johnson as our face on the world. It's awful beyond words.

I suppose our only comfort lies in the Remain predictions which have turned out to be porkies. If the number of Leave lies in my locker is anything to go by there are a goodly few to come.
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:25 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Anyway, moving on to the next Remain lie, if you'd be so kind?
What is your candidate Leave lie this time?
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Old 15th February 2017, 11:38 PM   #320
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