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Old 15th February 2017, 11:49 PM   #321
McHrozni
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Hm. To call this one fake news would be to give it undue credit. It's ******** Fake News.

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Old 16th February 2017, 12:07 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hm. To call this one fake news would be to give it undue credit. It's ******** Fake News.

McHrozni
It is also more than 18 months old so it's not just fake news, it's old fake news
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Old 16th February 2017, 12:18 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by MCel58 View Post
It is also more than 18 months old so it's not just fake news, it's old fake news
Stupid censorship eliminated a fairly important additional adjective which had to do with the feces of a male B.Taurus.

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Old 16th February 2017, 12:33 AM   #324
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Hm. To call this one fake news would be to give it undue credit. It's ******** Fake News.

McHrozni
It's an example of a lie from the leave campaigners that got huge coverage during the referendum campaign.
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Old 16th February 2017, 12:36 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with some of this but it's an analysis that ought to be read.

https://www.commonspace.scot/article...dnt-see-coming
If you like fantasy. The first question I would ask the author in this scenario is how Scotland copes with the millions of refugee English that would presumably be seeking asylum in this apocalyptic dream (has someone been reading the book of revelations?)

If you think Brexit case had lies this is the worst sort of case for remain it is so false that it makes me think that if this is best argument remainers have then they have none!
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Old 16th February 2017, 01:28 AM   #326
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Pesky foreigners, coming over here, filling vital roles in vital public services. Honestly, the cheek of 'em.


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk

"The Welsh NHS Confederation, which represents the health boards and trusts, called for long-term workforce planning to meet the nation's health and social care needs.

It warned that the NHS across the UK was "heavily reliant" on EU and other overseas workers."
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Old 16th February 2017, 01:44 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you like fantasy. The first question I would ask the author in this scenario is how Scotland copes with the millions of refugee English that would presumably be seeking asylum in this apocalyptic dream (has someone been reading the book of revelations?)

If you think Brexit case had lies this is the worst sort of case for remain it is so false that it makes me think that if this is best argument remainers have then they have none!


If you think that's the best argument for remaining in the EU you must have your head firmly inserted up your backside. You just don't care, do you? You have ignored everything the experts have said. The arrogance of your minority of voters who swung a stupid vote for a bs vision of lies and myths.
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Old 16th February 2017, 01:54 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
That's the gross figure. For the next two years, at least, we'll still be paying it to the EU.
And after that?
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Old 16th February 2017, 01:59 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with some of this but it's an analysis that ought to be read.

https://www.commonspace.scot/article...dnt-see-coming
It's overboard on all levels, roughly comparable to what counts as analysis on the Brexitard side.

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Old 16th February 2017, 02:11 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's overboard on all levels, roughly comparable to what counts as analysis on the Brexitard side.

McHrozni
I agree, it does seem a little downbeat, even for me
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Old 16th February 2017, 02:34 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree, it does seem a little downbeat, even for me
That's a fairly impressive bar, actually.

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Old 16th February 2017, 02:48 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
And after that?
I'm guessing something involving Unicorns and fairy dust.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:09 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you like fantasy. The first question I would ask the author in this scenario is how Scotland copes with the millions of refugee English that would presumably be seeking asylum in this apocalyptic dream (has someone been reading the book of revelations?)

If you think Brexit case had lies this is the worst sort of case for remain it is so false that it makes me think that if this is best argument remainers have then they have none!
Its not really a case for remain is it. It's just someone playing out an extreme scenario. As for refugees. Presumably English ones would be happy being treated they way they suggest everyone else is. Face down in the North Sea for them then.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:12 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you like fantasy. The first question I would ask the author in this scenario is how Scotland copes with the millions of refugee English that would presumably be seeking asylum in this apocalyptic dream (has someone been reading the book of revelations?)
Probably the same way the Roman emperor Hadrian used to solve a similar issue back in the day.

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Old 16th February 2017, 03:25 AM   #335
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If and when Turkey becomes a full EU member, then Turkish people will have the right of free movement within the EU.

If you think that's a lie, please explain why you do.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:28 AM   #336
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Bloomberg has a sober analysis. By all accounts UK cabinet has no idea what it intends to achieve in negotiations.

This part is particularly stinging:

What is May willing to offer the EU?

The U.K. could offer some cash, though not much, to compensate for the budgetary loss of its departure. May has also indicated that if talks turn sour then current joint work on security, intelligence and military collaboration could stop, but does she really mean it?



https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...till-won-t-say

All the talk is about what will UK secure from EU, as if it is about to impose an unequal treaty. Fact of the matter is that will require consent from 28 states, some of whom individually roughly match the UK and who are collectively as powerful as any state or organization on the planet - and it's not like they don't know it either. Plus they have strong political and economic incentives for Brexit to be hard on UK. Political because this keeps the Union stronger and economic because businesses moving from UK will most likely move to a EU country instead.

The best British hope for assistance in this dire situation is ... Donald Trump. A president who is not only haunted by conflicts of interest and scandals in the first month of his presidency, but also whose only consistent wow is America first. The only way UK can realistically hope for meaningful assistance from him is if it applies for membership in USA. I would recommend becoming a federal territory in that case, since it would become a major tax heaven.

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Old 16th February 2017, 03:43 AM   #337
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If and when Turkey becomes a full EU member, then Turkish people will have the right of free movement within the EU.

If you think that's a lie, please explain why you do.
It's certainly true, in the same way that if China becomes a full EU member, Chinese people will have the same right.
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:44 AM   #338
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If and when Turkey becomes a full EU member, then Turkish people will have the right of free movement within the EU.

If you think that's a lie, please explain why you do.
The valid bit of your post is highlighted. Given that Turkey doesn't meet a number of requirements of EU membership at the moment. Further even if it did meet the requirements any member state can veto membership so if it was such a concern to the UK it could veto Turkey's membership rather than vote to leave the EU and then go and instantly try to set up trade deals with Turkey. And further even if no veto was applied and Turkey did eventually join the EU transitional arrangement on freedom of movement are available.

So given that the likelihood of Turkey joining the EU during the lifetime of the average Brexit voter (or even the lifetime of the average toddler) is close as makes no difference to zero the whole thing was such an obvious red herring. Yet it was repeated endlessly by the towering figures of integrity leading the leave campaign (I include the tabloid press in that group).
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Old 16th February 2017, 03:58 AM   #339
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And the way Turkey is currently moving under Erdogan, the already tiny chance of them joining the EU in anything approximating the near future has shrunk to, let's be honest, nothing.

And, as Mid says, we had a veto...and freedom of movement is restricted initially. Well, it can be. Of course the UK might have decided (as it did when the eastern countries joined up) to not actually apply any. You know...our government...what we voted for...that we've left the EU apparently because we wanted to hand power back to Westminster to restrict migration...the same Westminster that allowed free movement from the get-go when they had an option not to.

It's just all utter, utter bollocks.
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:06 AM   #340
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
It's certainly true, in the same way that if China becomes a full EU member, Chinese people will have the same right.
Exactly!

Of course it's vanishingly unlikely that China will ever become a member, but before Erdoğan's recent excesses Turkey was moving in the direction of joining and Prime Minister Cameron was spending UK taxpayers' money to help Turkey along with the process.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...by-helping-fu/

Last edited by ceptimus; 16th February 2017 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 16th February 2017, 04:49 AM   #341
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly!

Of course it's vanishingly unlikely that China will ever become a member, but before Erdoğan's recent excesses Turkey was moving in the direction of joining and Prime Minister Cameron was spending UK taxpayers' money to help Turkey along with the process.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...by-helping-fu/
Well that's what the Leave campaign kept claiming, and the Remain campaign kept pointing out the near-insurmountable barriers that Turkey would have to deal with in order to join the EU. Seems like one again, early indications are that the Remain campaign had it right
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:22 AM   #342
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
If and when Turkey becomes a full EU member, then Turkish people will have the right of free movement within the EU.

If you think that's a lie, please explain why you do.
"IF"

That's the bit that you seem to want to overlook.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:25 AM   #343
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Exactly!

Of course it's vanishingly unlikely that China will ever become a member, but before Erdoğan's recent excesses Turkey was moving in the direction of joining and Prime Minister Cameron was spending UK taxpayers' money to help Turkey along with the process.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...by-helping-fu/
If the UK stayed they could block it, once they leave they will have no say in the matter.

If, then, Turkey joins they will have freedom of travel all the way to the UK's borders and we all know how porous those are.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:38 AM   #344
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
If, then, Turkey joins they will have freedom of travel all the way to the UK's borders and we all know how porous those are.
The last time I checked the British borders involved unusually wide and deep moats. Maybe Brexitards think sand people don't want to ride on poison water?

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Old 16th February 2017, 05:39 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
"IF"

That's the bit that you seem to want to overlook.
Starting a sentence with 'if' does not make that sentence a lie. You know that.

There was a good chance that Turkey would eventually join at the time the article you posted was written. Are you denying that? If you are, what do you think were Cameron's motives in providing UK funds to help Turkey in the process towards EU membership?

That Cameron did provide UK funds to Turkey to assist with their moves towards EU membership is undeniable.

Last edited by ceptimus; 16th February 2017 at 05:42 AM.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:41 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Brexitards
Nice example of what Leave supporters think passes for critical thinking debate.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:47 AM   #347
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There was a good chance that Turkey would eventually join at the time the article you posted was written. Are you denying that?
That's not what the lying article claimed and you know it. They claimed it was imminent. They also omitted the key data that the UK would decide if and when they were to be admitted.

Funny that the usual suspects seem to think that it is impossible for Scotland to join the EU and yet Turkey will be admitted any day now.

It's almost as if they are just making **** up to suit.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:48 AM   #348
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Anyway, despite any of you failing to show that the possibility of Turkey joining the EU was a lie, I'll play along with another Remain lie.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-prices-brexit

House prices have actually risen. I know you'll respond with "we've not triggered article 50 yet", so I challenge you to predict how much you think house prices will fall during 2017 following the March triggering of Article 50.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:48 AM   #349
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
The last time I checked the British borders involved unusually wide and deep moats.
Not the one between Northern Ireland and the EU. The one that Brexiteers don't like to talk about.
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Old 16th February 2017, 05:50 AM   #350
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Anyway, despite any of you failing to show that the possibility of Turkey joining the EU was a lie, I'll play along with another Remain lie.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-prices-brexit

House prices have actually risen. I know you'll respond with "we've not triggered article 50 yet", so I challenge you to predict how much you think house prices will fall during 2017 following the March triggering of Article 50.
So you have a lie that even you admit isn't a lie because we haven't left the EU yet?

Incidentally are we supposed to be responding to the headline or the actual claim - they seem to be different.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:18 AM   #351
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you like fantasy. The first question I would ask the author in this scenario is how Scotland copes with the millions of refugee English that would presumably be seeking asylum in this apocalyptic dream (has someone been reading the book of revelations?)

If you think Brexit case had lies this is the worst sort of case for remain it is so false that it makes me think that if this is best argument remainers have then they have none!

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
It's overboard on all levels, roughly comparable to what counts as analysis on the Brexitard side.

Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I agree, it does seem a little downbeat, even for me

It is explicitly presented as a dystopian fantasy. It's certainly not the "best argument remainers have", whatever gave you that idea.

The point is to show that bad things can happen and the possibility of bad things happening is actually real. Many many people within living memory have seen the entirety of their world collapse and we assume it can't happen to us. But it can.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:46 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
Northern Ireland's no loss any more, and Scotland wouldn't dare - they're dependent on English gold, don't you know. Bought and paid for - there are old songs about it so it must be true.
The Parcel of Rogues are long dead.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:48 AM   #353
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Starting a sentence with 'if' does not make that sentence a lie. You know that.

There was a good chance that Turkey would eventually join at the time the article you posted was written. Are you denying that? If you are, what do you think were Cameron's motives in providing UK funds to help Turkey in the process towards EU membership?

That Cameron did provide UK funds to Turkey to assist with their moves towards EU membership is undeniable.
Yes I am denying the narrative the Daily express was peddling which was millions of those Turks swarming into the UK. That was a lie then as it is today.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:55 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Incidentally are we supposed to be responding to the headline or the actual claim - they seem to be different.
Quite:
Quote:
The Office for Budget Responsibility predicts a rise of 9.4% over the next two years, meaning the government forecast suggests homes would be worth between 0.6% and 8.6% less in cash terms than they are now.
Since inflation is on the way up, and the recent house price rise is a side effect of the rate drop which itself was done to pump money into the economy, it'll be interesting to see just what happens when the rates start to head upwards.
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Old 16th February 2017, 06:57 AM   #355
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Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
I don't agree with some of this but it's an analysis that ought to be read.

https://www.commonspace.scot/article...dnt-see-coming
I suspect the slide will not be as total as predicted in that piece and the rump UK will stabilise at around 1992 Russia levels, though without the long term recovery potential.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:04 AM   #356
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Probably the same way the Roman emperor Hadrian used to solve a similar issue back in the day.

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And he didn't have concrete, razor wire, electrified fences, land mines, machine guns, biometric identification and implantable RFIDs...
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:10 AM   #357
ceptimus
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Yes I am denying the narrative the Daily express was peddling which was millions of those Turks swarming into the UK. That was a lie then as it is today.
The Daily Express didn't say it would happen straight away. It said it could happen if and when Turkey became an EU member. That was, and still is, true.

Since the article was written, it's become much less likely that Turkey will join the EU in the near future. We all agree that's true.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:16 AM   #358
ceptimus
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https://www.theguardian.com/politics...or-trade-talks

This doesn't qualify as an outright lie, as it's probably what Obama really was intending for the USA to do, should the UK decide to leave the EU. In any case he was just doing it to help out his mate Dave, knowing that he wouldn't be around to actually carry out the threat.

Anyway, it's turned out that it was a false threat, and we're now told that the UK will be at the head of the queue.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:21 AM   #359
Rat
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...or-trade-talks

This doesn't qualify as an outright lie, as it's probably what Obama really was intending for the USA to do, should the UK decide to leave the EU. In any case he was just doing it to help out his mate Dave, knowing that he wouldn't be around to actually carry out the threat.

Anyway, it's turned out that it was a false threat, and we're now told that the UK will be at the head of the queue.
We are told this. By Donald Trump. Who has never knowingly told truth.
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Old 16th February 2017, 07:29 AM   #360
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Originally Posted by Rat View Post
We are told this. By Donald Trump. Who has never knowingly told truth.
Donald Trump has never knowingly said that Britain will be at the head of the queue either. Michael Gove said that and Trump responded with "you're doing great." Brexiters have imagined that Trump said what they wanted him to say.

We do know from his inauguration speech that every trade deal will be about America First and he wants people to buy American and hire American.
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