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Tags donald trump , Trump administration , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:14 AM   #161
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Regarding Trump's statement that the media is "the enemy of the people" ...


Starry-eyed, butthurt liberals with their hysterical ways. Right?
What is that link supposed to be?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #162
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Originally Posted by varwoche View Post
Regarding Trump's statement that the media is "the enemy of the people" ...


Starry-eyed, butthurt liberals with their hysterical ways. Right?
Your link goes to a Google News page that does not appear to contain anything to do with the rest of your post. The top story, for instance, is from Fox News titled "Conservatives flock to CPAC to chart agenda under Trump."


eta: ninja'd
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:16 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Even if the Democrats do not plan ahead to oppose things simply because they are being done by Republicans, how do you think the Republican majority will spin Democrats not simply voting yes for every odious bill the Republican propose? How has Trump been framing Democratic obstruction to his patently unqualified nominees (that the R's are happy to vote on through for the most part)? If you are going to be painted as obstructionist for not enthusiastically throwing away your ideals and going along with Republican attempts to destroy the ACA, SS, the EPA, etc, why not actually be obstructionist? Again, it didn't hurt the R's in the voters eyes.
I'm not certain that's the case. There's more involved in this last election than the past behavior of congresscritters.

My personal opinion is that if dems become actively and purposefully obstructionist it will turn off their base. A majority of moderate dem supporters will be unhappy with that behavior and will be less likely to vote dem. A majority of independents will be unhappy with that behavior. It's not a black-and-white thing - most people aren't party-line voters.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:21 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I'm not certain that's the case. There's more involved in this last election than the past behavior of congresscritters.

My personal opinion is that if dems become actively and purposefully obstructionist it will turn off their base. A majority of moderate dem supporters will be unhappy with that behavior and will be less likely to vote dem. A majority of independents will be unhappy with that behavior. It's not a black-and-white thing - most people aren't party-line voters.
I'm not sure you are correct about most people not being party-line voters. We have all heard that 40-some percent of voters are listed as Independent, but very many people lean Republican or Democrat, and pretty much always vote that way. eta: Evidence

Also, I'd like to think that people realize that they have 2 choices, R or D. Not voting for the D because they are better than the R but still not good enough for one's precious principles means one gets the worst choice (see: Trump). It's short-sighted behavior which hurts the one doing it as well as everyone else.

Last edited by wareyin; 23rd February 2017 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:26 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Just what test or interview questions do you think an in-person assessment would ask that would contribute to the reliability of the diagnosis?

If you can tell me specifically what is needed in this in-person interview (key word: specific) you might have a case. But you can't. Trump's behavior is so widely viewable in the public sphere, there is nothing more an in-person visit could possibly add.
You appear to be relying on a lack of expertise about the specific evaluation questions in order to discount this argument. There is no reason to expect that an average person would know the specific in person evaluation process - it's something that professionals should be expected to know. But the average person would reasonably know that a professional diagnosis of a mental health disorder requires a comprehensive evaluation by a qualified practitioner. It is perfectly reasonable for an average person to discount the second-hand opinion of a person with incomplete information from highly filtered sources as being not credible.

You've implied that you have some involvement in the mental health field, but you've not elaborated on your credentials and expertise. Are you a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist? Are you a licensed mental health counselor?

What are your credentials that would lead us to accept your expert opinion on this matter?

If you're going to appeal to your personal expertise for your argument, it seems reasonable to provide a solid explanation of your applicable credentials.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:30 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I don't think there's much doubt about that.

It's the same sort of hopeless naivety that has let the Republicans get where they are today. Nice guys finish last in the race to political office. Democrats are the chumps who stood on principle.
In my naivety, I would rather finish last than pander.

Of course, this may be related to my pathetic earning potential.

I want the Democrats to be willing to work with the Republicans. I'd like for the Republicans to be wiling to work with the Democrats. I want a functional government, and I don't want folk to make decisions based on narrow partisan grounds, because that isn't good for me.

The Republicans have been abysmal for years, and were willing to be abysmal for years more (McCain, a mostly decent guy, said that no Clinton appointee to the Supreme Court would get a hearing, and that's disgraceful). I don't want either side to be disgraceful and I don't want the Democrats to force a point so that the Republicans nuke the filibuster --- unless, of course, the point really, really matters. If it matters so much that the nuclear option is worth it, if the principle is so important, then damned well go for it.

I want a functional government, a rational decision maker, party be damned. We're a fair distance from what I want.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:30 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Who is talking about committing Trump?

As far as I know you don't commit people with pathologic personality disorders. And the things you cite only go to underlying causes not to the diagnosis itself. An MMPI is not going to magically provide a different diagnosis.

See my above post, the diagnosis is not the key issue. What's relevant is how Trump's behavior is affecting his ability to do the job of POTUS.
Bob001 has a very good point, that you appear to be dismissing out of hand. Part of a diagnosis is ruling out other potential causes. My diagnosis of seizure disorder included ruling out cancers, tumors, brain lesions and injuries, metabolic disorders that affect mineral levels, and even celiac disease. Of course, seizure disorders, like migraine, is an exclusionary diagnosis. But many mental health disorders require the ruling out of other potential physical causes. My recollection, which is not professional, is that *most* of them require ruling out other potential causes.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:31 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Which means that no Americans are winning as things stand.
We aren't.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:33 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Perhaps I'm hopelessly naive, but I'd rather lose with dignity than win by purely partisan measures.

In any case, the Democratic and Republican bases are different, and what works for one may not work for the other.
QFT
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:35 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Nice guys finish last in the race to political office.
That's a problem with politicians. It's part of why so many people are completely disgusted with the establishment. It's part of why so many people voted for a clearly jerkish snake-oil salesman as preferable to yet another established part of the broken system.

Taking pains to make sure that the party that is marginally better than the other turns into something at least as bad as them is a horrible idea.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:36 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
But losing, whether or not it is with dignity, ensures that the only sane party cannot help or protect the American people from the Republican party. Sometimes, it is more honorable to make sure you have the power to block, say, Devos from becoming Education Secretary and screwing up education for all, than it is to refuse to do what it takes to win and allow the Republicans to dismantle public education, gut Social Security, etc.
Right. It's a hard choice.

I'm not a strong man, by any stretch. But I still think that in the political realm, one ought to act honorably. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I should prefer being a foolish loser to one who panders to the lowest common denominator.

Trump succeeded largely because of ridiculous celebrity and preposterous posturing. Should the Democrats try that same *********** strategy in four years, I sure as hell will not vote for either major party. I want a grownup government and I won't put my stamp on anything less.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:38 AM   #172
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I saw a PBS NewsHour report last night about when Trump was campaigning in Erie Pa. He told the people there that their shutdown factories were "so sad" and "we're going to bring those jobs back, we're going to reopen those factories." I saw an earlier PBS report when he told people at a rally in Johnstown Pa. that their closed down steel mills were "so sad," that "we're going to bring those jobs back, we're going to reopen those mills."

PBS interviewed people in both places post-election who said they believed Trump's promises and voted for him on that basis. None of them seem to think, if the plants don't reopen, if the jobs don't come back, then that will mean Trump will have failed. Most said, "Well it will mean, at least he tried."

The ironic fact is, when I looked online I discovered, Erie Pa. is actually doing pretty well economically. They still have a lot of manufacturing jobs, but in smaller plants. Plastic manufacture is apparently thriving there.


This campaign and election are the damnedest turn of events I've ever witnessed. People vote for Trump because he made them promises that they don't even seem to expect him to keep. It was enough that he said it.
Well, when the other option told people that she was going to close down their jobs, what do you expect?

Sure, she said she'd work to bring in other options... but she led with intending them to lose their jobs.

South park really naild it: it was a choice between a giant douche and **** sandwich. I'm not sure which is which though.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:40 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
I'm not sure you are correct about most people not being party-line voters. We have all heard that 40-some percent of voters are listed as Independent, but very many people lean Republican or Democrat, and pretty much always vote that way. eta: Evidence

Also, I'd like to think that people realize that they have 2 choices, R or D. Not voting for the D because they are better than the R but still not good enough for one's precious principles means one gets the worst choice (see: Trump). It's short-sighted behavior which hurts the one doing it as well as everyone else.
Do you expect right-leaning people to vote against their principles... but for left-leaning people to vote for their principles? Do you think that other people's principles are less valid to them than your own are to you?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:42 AM   #174
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Right. It's a hard choice.

I'm not a strong man, by any stretch. But I still think that in the political realm, one ought to act honorably. Maybe that makes me a fool, but I should prefer being a foolish loser to one who panders to the lowest common denominator.

Trump succeeded largely because of ridiculous celebrity and preposterous posturing. Should the Democrats try that same *********** strategy in four years, I sure as hell will not vote for either major party. I want a grownup government and I won't put my stamp on anything less.
Seems to me like you're way too principled for this old world. I say we create a virtual one for ourselves and spend the rest of our lives hooked into it with like-minded people.

I'll start right away!
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:43 AM   #175
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Trump condemning the media is nothing new.

But I'm wondering if now that he is president, do his words have more credibility ?
In theory, he should be one of the best informed people in the world. But he has made it clear that he trusts FoxNews and Infowars over his Intelligence briefings.

It seems to me that Trump is still appealing to his crowd as "Trump the Outsider", not as "President Trump".
So effectively, him calling the press the enemy of the people isn't as bad as, say, Bill Clinton or George Bush doing it.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:44 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
That's a problem with politicians. It's part of why so many people are completely disgusted with the establishment. It's part of why so many people voted for a clearly jerkish snake-oil salesman as preferable to yet another established part of the broken system.

Taking pains to make sure that the party that is marginally better than the other turns into something at least as bad as them is a horrible idea.
Yeah, that might be part of why Trump was elected, but let's be honest here. The whole notion that politicians tend to be dishonest, so instead I'll vote for an obvious and unrepentant liar, really isn't the best evidence of rational capabilities.

There is no doubt that of all the candidates, Trump is literally the worst of the pack, no matter one's political values. A perfectly rational conservative should not have voted this child into office.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:47 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Yeah, that might be part of why Trump was elected, but let's be honest here. The whole notion that politicians tend to be dishonest, so instead I'll vote for an obvious and unrepentant liar, really isn't the best evidence of rational capabilities.

There is no doubt that of all the candidates, Trump is literally the worst of the pack, no matter one's political values. A perfectly rational conservative should not have voted this child into office.
I did not intend to imply that the choice was rational. It is explainable and understandable in some cases... but that doesn't make it rational by any stretch.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:48 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well, when the other option told people that she was going to close down their jobs, what do you expect?

Sure, she said she'd work to bring in other options... but she led with intending them to lose their jobs.

South park really naild it: it was a choice between a giant douche and **** sandwich. I'm not sure which is which though.
No, it's not.

Clinton is competent. She's not purely self-interested. She has done much that is questionable, but I can live with that, compared to Trump's gross incompetence.

Not a *********** question at all. Really isn't. One of the two candidates is likely to lead us to disastrous foreign relations and the other isn't.

Too late now, but dear Cat, let's not pretend that it was an even choice. It *********** wasn't.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:48 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
In my naivety, I would rather finish last than pander.

Of course, this may be related to my pathetic earning potential.

I want the Democrats to be willing to work with the Republicans. I'd like for the Republicans to be wiling to work with the Democrats. I want a functional government, and I don't want folk to make decisions based on narrow partisan grounds, because that isn't good for me.

The Republicans have been abysmal for years, and were willing to be abysmal for years more (McCain, a mostly decent guy, said that no Clinton appointee to the Supreme Court would get a hearing, and that's disgraceful). I don't want either side to be disgraceful and I don't want the Democrats to force a point so that the Republicans nuke the filibuster --- unless, of course, the point really, really matters. If it matters so much that the nuclear option is worth it, if the principle is so important, then damned well go for it.

I want a functional government, a rational decision maker, party be damned. We're a fair distance from what I want.
In a perfect world, we'd all want that. But working with the other side only works if both sides are willing to work together. The Republicans must also be willing to work with the Dems, and they simply are not.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:50 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Do you expect right-leaning people to vote against their principles... but for left-leaning people to vote for their principles? Do you think that other people's principles are less valid to them than your own are to you?
What principles did Republicans show by voting in Betsy Devos?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:50 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Seems to me like you're way too principled for this old world. I say we create a virtual one for ourselves and spend the rest of our lives hooked into it with like-minded people.

I'll start right away!
Sounds great, so long as I am not stuck with you in my world.

Got anything with shapelier[1] curves and a tendency to dwell on pointless philosophical topics?

[1] Yes, I know you're more or less ovoid, but that's not what I mean.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:52 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, it's not.

Clinton is competent. She's not purely self-interested. She has done much that is questionable, but I can live with that, compared to Trump's gross incompetence.

Not a *********** question at all. Really isn't. One of the two candidates is likely to lead us to disastrous foreign relations and the other isn't.

Too late now, but dear Cat, let's not pretend that it was an even choice. It *********** wasn't.
To you and I? Probably not. But the determination of whether it was an even choice is heavily influenced by the rankings within one's value set. I don't assume that everyone has the same value set as I do. And I can understand, and even empathize, with value sets where Clinton's positions and campaign lost out to Trump's. For someone in the mid-west, with depressing job prospects, who see their way of life as being threatened... Trump's perspective is likely to rank higher in their value sets than Clinton's. I may not agree with that ranking based on my own experiences and perspective, but that doesn't invalidate it.

It doesn't make another person's value ranking wrong.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:53 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I did not intend to imply that the choice was rational. It is explainable and understandable in some cases... but that doesn't make it rational by any stretch.
Fair enough.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:55 AM   #184
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
What principles did Republicans show by voting in Betsy Devos?
Christian principles. You and I might not agree with them, that doesn't make them not-principles. And it doesn't mean that they voted her in against their principles or without principles.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:55 AM   #185
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
In a perfect world, we'd all want that. But working with the other side only works if both sides are willing to work together. The Republicans must also be willing to work with the Dems, and they simply are not.
In which case, I have not suggested any changes to the Democratic intransigence.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 10:59 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Yeah, that might be part of why Trump was elected, but let's be honest here. The whole notion that politicians tend to be dishonest, so instead I'll vote for an obvious and unrepentant liar, really isn't the best evidence of rational capabilities.

There is no doubt that of all the candidates, Trump is literally the worst of the pack, no matter one's political values. A perfectly rational conservative should not have voted this child into office.
I disagree with your last statement. I am betting a pretty good hunk of those who voted for Trump in the general election did so in the hopes that he could be controlled by the GOP leadership. I think they are now realizing they made a huge mistake.
BTW, I think the his foreign Policy is Trump Achilles Heel with a lot of Republicans. He seems intent on his won foreign policy,with advisors who are as ignorant of foreign policy as he is.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:02 AM   #187
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
To you and I? Probably not. But the determination of whether it was an even choice is heavily influenced by the rankings within one's value set. I don't assume that everyone has the same value set as I do. And I can understand, and even empathize, with value sets where Clinton's positions and campaign lost out to Trump's. For someone in the mid-west, with depressing job prospects, who see their way of life as being threatened... Trump's perspective is likely to rank higher in their value sets than Clinton's. I may not agree with that ranking based on my own experiences and perspective, but that doesn't invalidate it.

It doesn't make another person's value ranking wrong.
I appreciate your sensitivity to opposing views, but when it comes to Trump, it goes too far.

Decent, well-reasoned folk might well have chosen Romney over Obama.

Trump, on the other hand, is transparently a con artist. Anyone outside of his wealthy enclave who thinks that Trump literally cares about them has been hornswaggled. In this, I include everyone in my immediate family (siblings and parents, not wife and offspring). They have been taken to the cleaners and you and I know it.

Yes, they made their choice based on their view of self-interest, but the factual bits that went into that choice were simply false. They were conned. Damn shame for them and a bigger shame for the nation as a whole.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:05 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I disagree with your last statement. I am betting a pretty good hunk of those who voted for Trump in the general election did so in the hopes that he could be controlled by the GOP leadership. I think they are now realizing they made a huge mistake.
BTW, I think the his foreign Policy is Trump Achilles Heel with a lot of Republicans. He seems intent on his won foreign policy,with advisors who are as ignorant of foreign policy as he is.
It's a matter of principle. A decent conservative doesn't work to elect a child just because maybe he can be controlled. A decent conservative (and voter generally) puts his mark on the candidate because he supports that candidate, not because he thinks that his handlers will bring him to heel.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:10 AM   #189
wareyin
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Christian principles. You and I might not agree with them, that doesn't make them not-principles. And it doesn't mean that they voted her in against their principles or without principles.
That's the first time I've heard it stated as the Christian thing to elect an incompetent boob to office. I know a lot of Christian teachers, for instance, who didn't want her. Can you explain how that was a demonstration of Christian principles?

Until such time as you can, it sure looks like she was voted in without principles, to me.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:11 AM   #190
wareyin
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
In which case, I have not suggested any changes to the Democratic intransigence.
Maintain the course which prevents them from helping the country, then?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:18 AM   #191
varwoche
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What is that link supposed to be?
Sorry about that. Here it is.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:31 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
(McCain, a mostly decent guy, said that no Clinton appointee to the Supreme Court would get a hearing, and that's disgraceful).
It was a factually true statement. A McCain crossover vote would have done nothing, so he took the opportunity to sound reactionary, which a lot of his constituents like. That's politics.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:34 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Sounds great, so long as I am not stuck with you in my world.
Sorry, but I'll be the admin.

Quote:
Got anything with shapelier[1] curves and a tendency to dwell on pointless philosophical topics?
No idea. But one thing's certain, you'll have to kill a lot of monsters to reach even level 2.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:38 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
It makes sense. SC keeps re-electing Lindsay Graham, even though he has a low approval rating . Ditto McCain. Every now and then they throw raw meat to the base.

The Hill says McCain and Graham will hold a town hall.

Last edited by Minoosh; 23rd February 2017 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:40 AM   #195
phiwum
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Maintain the course which prevents them from helping the country, then?
Yes, I'm afraid so. First, of course, there is the question regarding whether obstructionism helps the Democrats in the way that it helped the Republicans, but let's suppose so.

Obstructionism for purely political reasons is a damned shame. Work together when appropriate, refuse to do so when it violates one's principles. This is what I desire from my elected officials. What the Republicans did in the past eight years was a damned shame, and I don't want the Democrats to do the same.

Gorsuch is an example. He could be worse, he's well regarded. I don't approve of previous obstructionism regarding the SC nominee, but if this guy is okay, then best to let him pass. Some Democrats will think that Gorsuch isn't a reasonable nominee, and that's okay. They ought to follow their consciences. But decent Senators don't vote him down merely for their own political advantage.

As I've said, I may be a bit naive on these issues.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:42 AM   #196
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Sorry, but I'll be the admin.



No idea. But one thing's certain, you'll have to kill a lot of monsters to reach even level 2.
Sorry, but are there any other games at this table?
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:46 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Yes, I'm afraid so. First, of course, there is the question regarding whether obstructionism helps the Democrats in the way that it helped the Republicans, but let's suppose so.

Obstructionism for purely political reasons is a damned shame. Work together when appropriate, refuse to do so when it violates one's principles. This is what I desire from my elected officials. What the Republicans did in the past eight years was a damned shame, and I don't want the Democrats to do the same.

Gorsuch is an example. He could be worse, he's well regarded. I don't approve of previous obstructionism regarding the SC nominee, but if this guy is okay, then best to let him pass. Some Democrats will think that Gorsuch isn't a reasonable nominee, and that's okay. They ought to follow their consciences. But decent Senators don't vote him down merely for their own political advantage.

As I've said, I may be a bit naive on these issues.
You're adorable.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:51 AM   #198
phiwum
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You're adorable.
You coming on to me? I'm happily married.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 11:56 AM   #199
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You coming on to me? I'm happily married.
No, I want to purchase you and put you on a shelf somewhere. That way my Japanese wife can say "Kawaii" whenever she sees you.
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Old 23rd February 2017, 12:02 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I disagree with your last statement. I am betting a pretty good hunk of those who voted for Trump in the general election did so in the hopes that he could be controlled by the GOP leadership. I think they are now realizing they made a huge mistake.
BTW, I think the his foreign Policy is Trump Achilles Heel with a lot of Republicans. He seems intent on his won foreign policy,with advisors who are as ignorant of foreign policy as he is.
Like the idea that Mexico without complaint, would absorb 11 million people deported there.
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