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Old 8th March 2017, 05:29 AM   #1
applecorped
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A day without women

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn...ols/index.html


It's so much quieter already
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Old 8th March 2017, 05:46 AM   #2
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http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ldwide-n730021

"Taking a day off of work isn't possible for everyone, and the Women's Strike has faced criticism as some have dubbed it 'A Day Without Privileged Women.' The strike's organizing team in the U.S. has responded to the critics by pointing out their own diverse backgrounds."
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Old 8th March 2017, 05:58 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ldwide-n730021

"Taking a day off of work isn't possible for everyone, and the Women's Strike has faced criticism as some have dubbed it 'A Day Without Privileged Women.' The strike's organizing team in the U.S. has responded to the critics by pointing out their own diverse backgrounds."
Ah, yes. No action should be taken unless it can be guaranteed to be perfect in every respect.
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Old 8th March 2017, 06:33 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Clearly a reason to include male quotas in schools. Maybe that will reduce the gender gap that forms early on in education.

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Old 8th March 2017, 06:46 AM   #5
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From the OP's link:

Quote:
The national strike movement on Wednesday coincides with International Women's Day. It aims to draw attention to inequities working women face compared to men, from wage disparity to harassment to job insecurity.
Wage disparity? Not that myth again! The disparity is one of earnings, not wage.

And what do they mean by job insecurity? Are women somehow more likely to get fired or something?
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Old 8th March 2017, 08:10 AM   #6
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I guess we'll just have to replace women with young and feminine cross-dressing guys just for today then. They can take the place of women.
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Old 8th March 2017, 08:29 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/...ldwide-n730021

"Taking a day off of work isn't possible for everyone, and the Women's Strike has faced criticism as some have dubbed it 'A Day Without Privileged Women.' The strike's organizing team in the U.S. has responded to the critics by pointing out their own diverse backgrounds."
I hate, let me repeat, hate the trend of ******** on anything because of the background of the person.

If a Nazi had a good Idea is still a good idea, attack the arguement not the person.
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Old 8th March 2017, 08:32 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes. No action should be taken unless it can be guaranteed to be perfect in every respect.
And further more you best be a transgender Muslim Latino with one leg, otherwise take your Privileged full ass right out of the ring of social justice.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
From the OP's link:



Wage disparity? Not that myth again! The disparity is one of earnings, not wage.

And what do they mean by job insecurity? Are women somehow more likely to get fired or something?
According to a study in Economic Inquiry, yes.

Quote:
The report found that 7.2 percent of women executives left their jobs, compared to 3.8 percent of men. Both the voluntary rates (4.3 percent versus 2.8 percent for men) and the involuntary rates (2.9 versus 0.9 percent) were higher for women executives.
Granted, that's for executives, so the numbers may not hold up across other areas of employment. However, considering the number of issues women face as opposed to men (needing breaks to deal with menstrual flow, breastfeeding, taking time off to give birth, the effects being pregnant can have on your brain functions, etc) I would suspect there is more than one firing out there that occurred as a result of a strictly feminine issue more so than there are ones relating to strictly masculine issues. We're an issue for some employers strictly because of our biology. We do tend to get paid less than men as well; the most often cited numbers I see are that women get paid approximately $.73 for the same work as a man getting paid a dollar. I'm not sure why that isn't an issue of wage in your book.

ETA: The AAUW breaks it down nicely here. I was off slightly on my numbers; on average, women are paid only eighty cents to do the same work a man gets paid a dollar for, and by their best estimates, that difference will not go away until somewhere between 2059 and 2152.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:22 AM   #10
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The AAUW has no credibility. None.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:27 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
The AAUW has no credibility. None.
And you base this assertion on... what, exactly?
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:28 AM   #12
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so would this explain the excessive belching and farting in the office today?
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:30 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Ah, yes. No action should be taken unless it can be guaranteed to be perfect in every respect.
This action is a long way from having to worry about not being perfect.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:35 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
The AAUW has no credibility. None.
I must here second Sabrina's curiosity about this. Please supply supporting material - flat accusations without such are pointless.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Whip View Post
so would this explain the excessive belching and farting in the office today?
of course it would - or eating too many hotdogs (do you know what is really in those things ) not to mention what it looks like when you are eating them!!!!!!

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Old 8th March 2017, 09:53 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
We do tend to get paid less than men as well; the most often cited numbers I see are that women get paid approximately $.73 for the same work as a man getting paid a dollar. I'm not sure why that isn't an issue of wage in your book.
Its not for the same work, its for work overall. There are a whole host of factors that contribute to this, including the fact that women tend to do different jobs on average, work less hours on average..... in fact there are over 20 separate factors that contribute to the gender pay gap, which don't involve discrimination.

Even the report you cited says:
"In part, the pay gap reflects women’s and men’s choices. Women and men choose different college majors and types of jobs after graduation."

In fact you even cited one factor in your post:
Quote:
Both the voluntary rates (4.3 percent versus 2.8 percent for men)
Women have more social power to leave high paying jobs than men.
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:54 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
From the OP's link:



Wage disparity? Not that myth again! The disparity is one of earnings, not wage.

And what do they mean by job insecurity? Are women somehow more likely to get fired or something?
Lesser qualified men get promotions over fully qualified women all the time. This is news?
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Old 8th March 2017, 09:57 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
The AAUW has no credibility. None.
In a shocking development, the class is still waiting on you to back that up.

Smart money is on the intellectual coward approach. Post and run.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:03 AM   #19
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My wife was disgusted with this silly stunt this morning.

That being said, does anyone know anyone who is actually going along with this nonsense?
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:19 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
According to a study in Economic Inquiry, yes.
Well that doesn't say much about the _reasons_ why they were let go. I'd think that's rather important.

Quote:
We do tend to get paid less than men as well; the most often cited numbers I see are that women get paid approximately $.73 for the same work as a man getting paid a dollar. I'm not sure why that isn't an issue of wage in your book.
First of all, it's 77%, not 73, and second it's simply not true.

The 77% figure is an aggregate: if you take the sum of all the yearly earnings of female full-time workers in the US and divide by the same number for men, you get 0.77.

So, first, it's not an hourly wage but a yearly earning. Second, it's an aggregate, so you have no idea from that number whether people doing the same job are paid the same wage by the same employer in the same area. There's simply no way to know from a single number, but feminists and other SJWs love to quote that number as if it's significant, because they have no idea how it's been calculated.

Men work 14% more hours a week, and women tend to skip promotions to, surprise, spend more time at home with the children. Those and a few other choices explain the vast majority of the 23% discrepancy. The rest might be discrimination, or might be some other factor we don't know about. (ETA : And that's not even getting into different career choices.)

To simply look at this number and draw a conclusion of discrimination from it is ignorant at best and dishonest at worst.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Lesser qualified men get promotions over fully qualified women all the time. This is news?
No, it's a claim.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:24 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, it's a claim.
I see it in my day to day life. So unless I'm living in an alternate universe, as painful as it may be, you're wrong.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:37 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
I see it in my day to day life. So unless I'm living in an alternate universe, as painful as it may be, you're wrong.
You know as well as I do that anecdotes mean jack all. You need to establish the reason behind them being passed over for promotion, etc. before you can scream "discrimination". To be clear: I'm not saying that discrimination doesn't happen. Of course it does. We're talking about humans, here. But it doesn't mean you get to use it as the explanation for every difference. Otherwise that'd be like truthers asking us whether we think conspiracies exist at all, as if that's somehow a revelation.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
According to a study in Economic Inquiry, yes.



Granted, that's for executives, so the numbers may not hold up across other areas of employment. However, considering the number of issues women face as opposed to men (needing breaks to deal with menstrual flow, breastfeeding, taking time off to give birth, the effects being pregnant can have on your brain functions, etc) I would suspect there is more than one firing out there that occurred as a result of a strictly feminine issue more so than there are ones relating to strictly masculine issues. We're an issue for some employers strictly because of our biology. We do tend to get paid less than men as well; the most often cited numbers I see are that women get paid approximately $.73 for the same work as a man getting paid a dollar. I'm not sure why that isn't an issue of wage in your book.

ETA: The AAUW breaks it down nicely here. I was off slightly on my numbers; on average, women are paid only eighty cents to do the same work a man gets paid a dollar for, and by their best estimates, that difference will not go away until somewhere between 2059 and 2152.


Could the two bolded bits be related?

If I'm an employer, I really don't care what sex my employee is, but I do care if they have unscheduled time off or are unable to work for medical issues. I don't give a monkeys what the issues are, the why of it doesn't matter to me.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Could the two bolded bits be related?

If I'm an employer, I really don't care what sex my employee is, but I do care if they have unscheduled time off or are unable to work for medical issues. I don't give a monkeys what the issues are, the why of it doesn't matter to me.
The issue there is that a woman's biology is geared toward propagation of the species, so holding us accountable for our biology by either paying us less or letting us go because we had the audacity to have a period, get pregnant, or have a baby is unfair. It's one thing if you're talking a chronic illness or injury causing the problem; it's another thing if you're discussing reproductive biology as the cause of the missed time or being unable to work. Imagine a man getting paid less or getting fired because he regularly gets an erection that lasts for a week every month, or because he had sex and fathered a child, and you'll understand the disparity.

I'm not certain what the possible solution is at the moment, beyond some ridiculously improbable notions like women in the workforce are not allowed to get pregnant and have to take the birth control shot that shuts down their ovaries while they're working so they don't get periods either, but treating women differently because of our gender-related biology is not the right response either.
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Old 8th March 2017, 10:58 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
The issue there is that a woman's biology is geared toward propagation of the species, so holding us accountable for our biology by either paying us less or letting us go because we had the audacity to have a period, get pregnant, or have a baby is unfair.
I agree. Women are what they are in addition to who they are. Can't hold it against them. If you're going to hire women, and why wouldn't you, you have to make a few concessions to their biology.

However, it may also mean that women make career choices that will impact their earnings quite a bit.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:02 AM   #27
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Lysistrata did it better.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:04 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Men work 14% more hours a week, and women tend to skip promotions to, surprise, spend more time at home with the children. Those and a few other choices explain the vast majority of the 23% discrepancy. The rest might be discrimination, or might be some other factor we don't know about. (ETA : And that's not even getting into different career choices.)
That's not an argument that there's no wage gap, though. It's an argument for why you think the wage gap is justified.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
The issue there is that a woman's biology is geared toward propagation of the species, so holding us accountable for our biology by either paying us less or letting us go because we had the audacity to have a period, get pregnant, or have a baby is unfair.

Life isn't fair. It definitely didn't say fair on the box.

If employee 1 is going to take unscheduled time x off, and employee 2 is going to take unscheduled time 2x off then I'm going to make more money employing 1 than 2. I don't care why, I don't care about my employees sex, I simply care that they're not here when they're supposed to be and the rest of my team have to pick up the slack.



Quote:
It's one thing if you're talking a chronic illness or injury causing the problem; it's another thing if you're discussing reproductive biology as the cause of the missed time or being unable to work. Imagine a man getting paid less or getting fired because he regularly gets an erection that lasts for a week every month, or because he had sex and fathered a child, and you'll understand the disparity.
I think one can work with a big jumper and an erection. and you'llnote that you have to reach for faintly ludicrous conditions because there aren't any real equivalents. Again, I don't care about my employees sex, I don't care in the slightest if they're ensuring the propagation of the species, I care that the fact that they're not here and working is costing me money - in a capitalistic environment. If you want to go all 'from each according to their ability' which is what you're advocating, then you need to complete the circle with 'to each according to their need' and that's not the world in which we live.



Quote:
I'm not certain what the possible solution is at the moment, beyond some ridiculously improbable notions like women in the workforce are not allowed to get pregnant and have to take the birth control shot that shuts down their ovaries while they're working so they don't get periods either, but treating women differently because of our gender-related biology is not the right response either.

Oh, I have the perfect solution - auditing.

We accept, as a nation, that people need to have babies, and that costs time.

We accept that no individual employer can discriminate on gender or likelihood of becoming pregnant.

We allow employers to invoice the government for costs accrued as a result of maternity and the like.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:08 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
That's not an argument that there's no wage gap, though. It's an argument for why you think the wage gap is justified.
Do you understand the difference between an hourly wage and a yearly earning? This is the distinction that I'm making. If you and are are both paid 20$ an hour and I work more hours than you, I'm making more money a year but there is no wage gap and no discrimination in this case.

You'd know this if you had read my post.

Furthermore, the paragraph you quoted actually explains the discrepancy as a matter of choice. Your response seems to indicate that women making different choices is somehow unjustified.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:12 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I agree. Women are what they are in addition to who they are. Can't hold it against them. If you're going to hire women, and why wouldn't you, you have to make a few concessions to their biology.

However, it may also mean that women make career choices that will impact their earnings quite a bit.
And that's the problem right there; why should that have to be the case? Why can't women do every job a man can do? Certainly I will admit that there are jobs men are somewhat more suited for than women, due largely to issues of relative strength and endurance, but there are some few women who are just as capable of the majority of men of doing those jobs, yet they are discouraged from doing so for ridiculous reasons.

As an example; I joined the Army back in 2002, with the intent of going into Military Intelligence, but MI at the time (and this may very well still be the case) didn't want 2LTs; they wanted captains. So I was branch detailed, and being that MI is crucial to the actions of the combat arms branches, they tend to prefer to branch detail their people to those branches. Just one problem; at the time, women could only serve in two of the four combat arms branches (Field Artillery and Air Defense Artillery, and in ADA women could only join PATRIOT units, not Stinger or Avenger platoons) due to some outdated, archaic notion that women in the Armor or Infantry branches would be a distraction to the men serving or would be unable to keep up with the rigorous work involved. This remained the case for nearly the entire time I was in the Army, both Active and Reserves, and was only changed just before I retired to allow women capable of meeting the physical fitness standards for the branch into those branches. Thus far, although there haven't been many examples I will grant, I have heard of very few issues arising from allowing women into Infantry or Armor in the Army. Why is it that this is not the case in all possible jobs? Sure, women may not be as interested in some jobs as men, but the same holds true for the opposite view. Prospective employers in those career fields should, by rights, be less concerned with a prospective employee's plumbing than they are with whether the person can actually do the job they are hiring for.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:15 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
And that's the problem right there; why should that have to be the case? Why can't women do every job a man can do?
I'm sorry, where have I said that they can't? What I am saying is that if they choose to work 4 days a week to be at home with their young children more often, they should expect to make only 80% of the money they'd make on a 5 day week. Do you think their wage should increase by 25% in order to compensate? If not, then you have to accept that these women won't make as much money as their male counterparts.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:26 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'm sorry, where have I said that they can't? What I am saying is that if they choose to work 4 days a week to be at home with their young children more often, they should expect to make only 80% of the money they'd make on a 5 day week. Do you think their wage should increase by 25% in order to compensate? If not, then you have to accept that these women won't make as much money as their male counterparts.
Apologies; I didn't mean YOU had said that, just that it's generally the opinion of many employers. Should have made that clear.

BTW, I don't know many women in the workforce who only work 4 days a week and then spend a day with their young children; most are working full-time jobs (i.e. forty hours a week or more) and also caring for their kids. And their salaries are STILL less than a man's in those cases.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:28 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
BTW, I don't know many women in the workforce who only work 4 days a week
I've known a few who did that and didn't even have children to take care of. It's simply a fact that men, on average, work more hours and more aggressively seek promotions. It doesn't mean that there's no discrimination or other problems to be solved, but it's important to understand the full picture.

Quote:
And their salaries are STILL less than a man's in those cases.
Are we now talking about hourly wage and for the same work? If so, that's illegal.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:30 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do you understand the difference between an hourly wage and a yearly earning? This is the distinction that I'm making. If you and are are both paid 20$ an hour and I work more hours than you, I'm making more money a year but there is no wage gap and no discrimination in this case.

You'd know this if you had read my post.

Furthermore, the paragraph you quoted actually explains the discrepancy as a matter of choice. Your response seems to indicate that women making different choices is somehow unjustified.

Again, you're simultaneously arguing that the wage gap is a myth, and that the wage gap is women's own fault because of the choices the voluntarily make.

I'm salaried, not hourly. I don't have any children. However, I've had to take a LOT of time off over the past year and a quarter due to cancer surgeries and chemotherapy treatments. Is it right for me to be paid less than my coworkers because of all the time I've missed at work? Would it be more right if I was paid less than my coworkers if all my missed work was because of childbirth and childcare issues?
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:33 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Again, you're simultaneously arguing that the wage gap is a myth, and that the wage gap is women's own fault because of the choices the voluntarily make.

I'm salaried, not hourly. I don't have any children. However, I've had to take a LOT of time off over the past year and a quarter due to cancer surgeries and chemotherapy treatments. Is it right for me to be paid less than my coworkers because of all the time I've missed at work? Would it be more right if I was paid less than my coworkers if all my missed work was because of childbirth and childcare issues?

Wouldn't you use PTO for your appointments?
How would that be getting paid less?
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:36 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
BTW, I don't know many women in the workforce who only work 4 days a week and then spend a day with their young children; most are working full-time jobs (i.e. forty hours a week or more) and also caring for their kids. And their salaries are STILL less than a man's in those cases.

I know many. Off the top of my head 20-30% of the working women I know work truncated weeks to allow for childcare.

I wouldn't lean on my or your anecdotal stuff.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Again, you're simultaneously arguing that the wage gap is a myth, and that the wage gap is women's own fault because of the choices the voluntarily make.

I'm salaried, not hourly. I don't have any children. However, I've had to take a LOT of time off over the past year and a quarter due to cancer surgeries and chemotherapy treatments. Is it right for me to be paid less than my coworkers because of all the time I've missed at work? Would it be more right if I was paid less than my coworkers if all my missed work was because of childbirth and childcare issues?

The difference is that one is elective, the other isn't.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:37 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Again, you're simultaneously arguing that the wage gap is a myth, and that the wage gap is women's own fault because of the choices the voluntarily make.
No, A'isha. I'm saying that it's an EARNINGS GAP, not a wage gap, AND that it's mainly CAUSED by choices that differ between the sexes.

Why is it so hard to understand?

Quote:
I'm salaried, not hourly. I don't have any children. However, I've had to take a LOT of time off over the past year and a quarter due to cancer surgeries and chemotherapy treatments.
That has nothing to do with your gender, however.

Quote:
Is it right for me to be paid less than my coworkers because of all the time I've missed at work?
Depends: did you just take time off or was that medical leave? Medical leave is, typically, paid either by the employer or by the government or some program or another. I mean, you and I both know all this so I find your question puzzling.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:40 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Wouldn't you use PTO for your appointments?
How would that be getting paid less?
I do use PTO as much as I can (and FMLA for my two surgeries and the recovery period afterwards). So do the women on my project who have children and have to take time off to take care of them. But there's only so much sick time you have available.

I've actually missed more work than they have...I don't know a single one who works a "four day week", but when I was on oral chemo at the beginning of last year, it was routine for me to have to stay home at least one day every week due to the effects it had on my body.
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