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Old 9th March 2017, 08:02 AM   #81
tyr_13
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I have a scenario.

Suppose you have a large warehouse. Say it was a very successful business and employed 2000 workers all doing the same job, say picking and filling orders, some shipping and receiving, that kind of stuff. You hire 1000 men and 1000 women. You pay them all $15 an hour and because the company always needs extra help you allow them to work 40 to 100 hours a week. They can choose to stay late, come in extra days, work double shifts, whatever they want. As long as it is between 40 and 100 hours.

After 5 years, which group would you expect to have earned the most money? The men or women? If you took the top 100 earners, what percentage would you expect to be men vs women?
The men because of factors outside of the warehouse. The distribution of who earned what after that would be more interesting.

EDIT: Damn, my more important last post is now the last one on the previous page. Dear reader, please check that one out as well.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:08 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
pass
If you had actually passed, you wouldn't have posted pass. Instead, you opted for an ad-hom.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Anybody reading this thread would think salarity disparity was the whole and only point of the day. Planned Parenthood is being defunded. Laws are being passed requiring cemetery burial for fertilized eggs. The president boasts of getting away with sexual assault. Colleges cover up rapes to keep their sports programs profitable.

Eta: so I guess my point is, what the hell is going on? It's 2017 and we're moving backwards.
Yeah, it is a massive oversimplification to focus on the income disparity and workforce issues, but it seems to arise mainly from it being the one thing some feel they are actually able to challenge (everything else being cartoonish levels of villainous idiocy) and the action being taken being one of labor denial.

So, understandable...kinda...sorta... If you know, don't have anything to say about cartoonish villainous idiocy. Eh, guess I talked myself out of my defense of the focus. Carry on!
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:13 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Is it a problem? Yes of course it is. You're changing the resolution of the argument, and that changes the answer, but for the actual set under discussion, the answer seems very obvious.
I really hate that word, "obvious", as far too often it's just a way to say "in my opinion, with which you're not allowed to disagree unless you're some sort of *******."

Quote:
We aren't talking about 'social expectations' as a whole, but 'the way social expectations based completely on your gender are enforced'.
I am. I said, and am still saying, that social expectations are inevitable, and not necessarily bad, even if, sometimes, they have negative consequences on a small minority. I'm trying to inject some perspective here which isn't related to how we feel about this issue.

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Why are these ones problems? Well quite plainly it's a problem for many individuals who would like to do the things they're not 'supposed' to do, like be a female CEO just as valued as her peers or a part-time working male who lives with family helping take care of his grandmother.
Now you're taking my post to mean something entirely different, presumably because it offends you. Saying that there are social expectations and pressures that may influence your decisions isn't the same as saying that people A) can't do what they want and B) shouldn't do what they want.

Quote:
We're deprived of the labor of female scientists who might have brought insights into solving some of our most intractable problems because 'smart girls aren't cute'.
Really? Does that actually happen? That sounds entirely made up. Please note that "yes it does" will not cut it as an answer.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:17 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't follow.
I'm saying that when "choice" is used in this argument, it's shorthand for "you chose to get yourself into the situation where you have to do this in the first place". And you're using it exactly that way:

Quote:
Except that getting pregnant is something you do in order to have a baby. Having a baby, and all the things that come with that, are a direct, wanted, almost inevitable consequence of this.
Like this.

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When you take up smoking it's not in order to get cancer, and only a certain percentage of smokers develop it. You're trying to make the two comparable but I don't see that you have a good argument for this.
Well, COPD isn't cancer, but thank you for reminding me of the cancer risk from smoking. And neither of these are unexpected consequences of smoking: every package of cigarettes is labeled with exactly what will probably happen to you if you start smoking. You can't argue that smokers don't know what they're getting into far more than women who get pregnant do.

Particularly since women don't get pregnant to get pre-eclampsia or have their children get serious pneumonia, and only a certain percentage of women have to deal with those.

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Indeed. But wouldn't that fall under the "no choice" category we talked about earlier?
I would think so, yes. But that's not how the "choice" argument is being applied to women with children who do have to deal with those issues.

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Again, A'isha, this doesn't give me the whole picture. If someone is paid by the hour, telling me that they make less in a year than another person doesn't tell me if the other person is paid more by the hour. This is the criticism that I gave for the 77% figure being used as a "wage" gap argument.
That's why the straight "hourly" argument is a nonstarter. It doesn't matter what the per-hour wage is for either salaried or hourly employees, since it doesn't give you any idea of what the people involved are actually paid, right? As you yourself pointed out, you have to look at how much a person works in addition to the "hourly" rate to be able to see what they're actually paid.

Your argument is that the yearly comparison doesn't adequately account for how hourly employees may work. My argument is that the hourly comparison doesn't adequately account for how salaried employees may work (though I also argue that the yearly comparison accounts for hourly employees far better than the hourly comparison accounts for salaried employees, making it the better measure of the two).

But this is where the weekly comparison comes in. If you're looking at what people earn in a week, where they all work 40 hours in that week (whether salaried or hourly), you can make a much more accurate comparison as to who is paid what.

Quote:
No, I can't. So the weekly comparison doesn't help unless you compare the same hours worked for the same work done in the same area by employees of the same employer. Not only do you have to compare apples with apples, but the apples have to be the same colour.
And that's what the BLS report I linked to does: it compares workers who work the same amount of hours in a week (not workers who work different amounts of hours in a week), thus erasing the "apples to oranges" issue you had with the yearly comparison. And yet, that still shows that a pay gap exists, so obviously the gap can't be explained merely by "men working more hours than women".

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Why is it inadequate? By what metric do you make this determination? It sounds a lot like it just feels wrong to you.
If there's a pay gap between men and women with children because women are making decisions about childbirth and childcare that affects their earnings, why does that exact same pay gap exist between men and women without children?
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Last edited by A'isha; 9th March 2017 at 08:21 AM. Reason: Left out an important word!
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:21 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Anybody reading this thread would think salarity disparity was the whole and only point of the day. Planned Parenthood is being defunded. Laws are being passed requiring cemetery burial for fertilized eggs. The president boasts of getting away with sexual assault. Colleges cover up rapes to keep their sports programs profitable.

Eta: so I guess my point is, what the hell is going on? It's 2017 and we're moving backwards.
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:

Quote:
1. Carrying your keys in your hand as a “weapon” when walking alone at night.
2. And turning your headphones off to make sure you’re not being followed.
3. Nailing the “I’m-walking-quickly-but-not-so-quick-that-you’ll-sense-my-fear” pace when someone is behind you.
4. Calling friends when alone in a taxi/Uber in order to feel safe.
5. Or texting them your driver’s details “just in case”.
6. Messaging them when you get home to let them know you’re OK.
7. Sitting near other women on public transport to minimise the risk of being harassed/attacked.
8. Avoiding being out altogether if it’s too early in the morning or too late at night because it doesn’t seem safe.
9. Pretending to be on the phone in any number of situations to avoid harassment.
10. Wearing a wedding ring to reduce the chances of men hitting on/harassing you, because they respect another man’s “property” more than a woman’s right to say no.
11. Giving men fake names and phone numbers rather than risking their anger at being rejected.
12. Staying silent when being verbally harassed out of fear if you fight back it’ll turn violent.
13. Keeping your drink covered with your hand and getting your friend to watch it if you need to go to the bathroom at a bar so that it doesn’t get spiked.
14. Making sure a friend always knows where you are if you’re going on a first date with a stranger.
15. Working hard despite the knowledge you’re being paid, on average, less than men in the same position.
16. Qualifying statements with words like “just” and “sorry” to avoid being perceived as pushy or aggressive.
17. Faking being happy and perky even when you don’t feel like it to avoid being seen as a bitch.
18. But not being TOO perky, so that people don’t think you’re stupid.
19. Pretending to be patient when you’re interrupted/talked over repeatedly by men.
20. Repeating yourself over and over again to get your point across.
21. Removing hair from your armpits, legs, and bikini line because on women it’s “gross” but on men it’s totally acceptable.
22. Spending a lot of money each month on period products, which are still considered a “luxury” by many governments.
23. Hiding said products up sleeves or in pockets when going to the bathroom in public places, because there’s still a lot of stigma around periods.
24. Making sure the right amount of skin is covered up or risking being seen as slutty/indecent.
25. Wearing makeup because you’re conditioned to believe your bare face isn’t good enough – or heck, just because you like it – and being told you’re fake.
26. Or not wearing makeup because you don’t want to/cbf and being told you look tired or sick.
27. Questioning whether the tweet or Facebook status you’re about to post will result in being viciously trolled/harassed, and having to make the decision about whether it’s worth it.
28. Constantly empathising with male TV/movie leads, and then having to deal with men protesting on the few occasions women are given starring roles.
29. Answering and/or deflecting deeply personal questions about your relationship status/fertility/home life from family, potential bosses, current bosses, and random strangers.
30. Taking the Pill if you have sex with men and want to avoid getting pregnant, because there’s still no male equivalent available.
31. Living with the knowledge that the government (dominated by men) has the power to legislate against your bodily autonomy.
32. And dealing with people telling you your concerns aren’t valid and you should stop complaining because “women are equal”.
I have not had to do all of these things, but I've done a lot of them. So please; continue to tell me how there isn't a gender gap.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:22 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I'm saying that when "choice" is used in this argument, it's shorthand for "you chose to get yourself into the situation where you have to do this in the first place".
Yeah well that's what choice is. I don't see what the problem is, now.

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Well, COPD isn't cancer, but thank you for reminding me of the cancer risk from smoking.
I'm not reminding you, I'm making a distinction between two things. Stop taking things so personally, please.

Quote:
And neither of these are unexpected consequences of smoking: every package of cigarettes is labeled with exactly what will probably happen to you if you start smoking.
You're overstating your case here. It states the risks involved.

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You can't argue that smokers know what they're getting into far more than women who get pregnant do.
You don't think women know what pregnancy entails?

Quote:
That's why the straight "hourly" argument is a nonstarter. It doesn't matter what the per-hour wage is for either salaried or hourly employees, since it doesn't give you any idea of what the people involved are actually paid, right?
Again, then, let's compare apples with apples: compare those paid by the hour with others paid by the hour, those paid by the month with those paid by the month, those paid by contract together, etc. Otherwise there's no way to tell because you're comparing two different metrics.

Quote:
And that's what the BLS report I linked to does: it compares workers who work the same amount of hours in a week (not workers who work different amounts of hours in a week), thus erasing the "apples to oranges" issue you had with the yearly comparison. And yet, that still shows that a pay gap exists, so obviously the gap can't be explained merely by "men working more hours than women".
What about other factors? Are they also eliminated?

Quote:
If there's a pay gap between men and women with children because women are making decisions about childbirth and childcare that affects their earnings, why does that exact same pay gap exist between men and women without children?
As I said earlier, the different decisions between men and women may exist regardless of whether they have children.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:24 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:
Do they have to worry about it because an actual risk exists, or because they perceive that a risk exists?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:39 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
...snip...

No one would even think of suggesting that I should be paid less for taking time off work because of my cancer, but if I had taken the time off to have and/or take care of a child instead, suddenly it's justified for a company to lowball a salary offer to me or not give me a raise because "[I'm] going to spend less time at work when [I'm] scheduled to be at work" and "costing [my] employer money".
#
Not sure what counter argument you are making. Having children is a voluntary choice, no one has to have children. Having children comes with costs, some of those costs may be that you can't work as many hours for your employer so why would you expect to get the same wage?

Why should having children be something that you (in effect) get paid to do?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:41 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:



I have not had to do all of these things, but I've done a lot of them. So please; continue to tell me how there isn't a gender gap.


Apart from 22 and 30 I see nothing that is specific to women.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I really hate that word, "obvious", as far too often it's just a way to say "in my opinion, with which you're not allowed to disagree unless you're some sort of *******."
Not here. It was more shorthand for 'there are several examples that have already been show in this discussion, so the fact that it is a problem of some sort cannot reasonably be denied'.



Quote:
I am. I said, and am still saying, that social expectations are inevitable, and not necessarily bad, even if, sometimes, they have negative consequences on a small minority. I'm trying to inject some perspective here which isn't related to how we feel about this issue.
That perspective appears useless to invoke here though when the argument isn't about the existence of social expectations and that some of some sort are inevitable, but about a specific subset of them. If someone were arguing that some sort of social expectations weren't inevitable or saying that all social expectations are negative, it would be pertinent. I don't think you're arguing in bad faith or anything, but I've yet to see how your observations matters here. If you could explain why it matters, I'm all ears.

And why highlight 'feels'. Is it a way to dismiss the arguments so far put forth?



Quote:
Now you're taking my post to mean something entirely different, presumably because it offends you. Saying that there are social expectations and pressures that may influence your decisions isn't the same as saying that people A) can't do what they want and B) shouldn't do what they want.

No, I put it as 'some people' specifically because I didn't think that was what you were arguing, but know that others do.

But more importantly, yes, it does mean that sometimes people can't do what they want. It is a factor that will stop people from doing what they wanted to. It's almost never the only, clear, factor, but putting additional hurdles in the way that are completely unneeded and unproductive is going to stop some people, even if hypothetically they could make other sacrifices to possibly overcome them that others don't need to.



Quote:
Really? Does that actually happen? That sounds entirely made up. Please note that "yes it does" will not cut it as an answer.

A) yes it does or at least did. B) what sort of evidence would you like? These sort of things aren't exactly written down. However, there have been inquiries into such issues. If you're interested, this is a good episode of StarTalk to start with.


Also, why have you ignored my point about organization of labor? Are you still thinking that over, or do you admit that if the mechanism I'm talking about has that impact, then it is actually a problem?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:46 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
#
Not sure what counter argument you are making. Having children is a voluntary choice, no one has to have children. Having children comes with costs, some of those costs may be that you can't work as many hours for your employer so why would you expect to get the same wage?

Why should having children be something that you (in effect) get paid to do?
The larger issue is that the costs are disproportionately put on women. Not 'costs' only as in 'money', but time and choices raising children.

Now, this not only impacts women in the workforce, but also men in the workforce who might want to be able to take more time with their children, but face more consequences because it's just assumed the woman should or would be doing those things. Not only are women with children encouraged to work less, men with children are encourage to work more.

Basically, the problem of having children as it relates to the workforce (past the pregnancy itself), should be very evenly distributed between men and women, yet it is not. Employers just assume those costs come with hiring women, but not men.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:46 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah well that's what choice is. I don't see what the problem is, now.
The problem is that the issue of "choice" does not get applied evenly.

Quote:
I'm not reminding you, I'm making a distinction between two things. Stop taking things so personally, please.
I apologize, I wasn't taking it personally. I actually had forgotten about the cancer risk with smoking until you brought it up (I was so focused on COPD).

Quote:
You're overstating your case here. It states the risks involved.
Yes, which means that anyone who chooses to smoke is well aware of what they could end up having to deal with before they ever start. Which makes me wonder why they aren't also blamed for the choices they make if they later have to take extended time off from work to get the consequences of their choice dealt with.

Quote:
You don't think women know what pregnancy entails?
Uteri don't come with a warning label, like cigarettes do.

Quote:
Again, then, let's compare apples with apples: compare those paid by the hour with others paid by the hour, those paid by the month with those paid by the month, those paid by contract together, etc. Otherwise there's no way to tell because you're comparing two different metrics.
They're not different metrics. If I get a weekly paycheck which covers 40 hours of work that week, how is it in any way illegitimate to compare it to any other weekly paycheck covering 40 hours of work, regardless of whether I'm salaried and the other person is hourly?

Quote:
What about other factors? Are they also eliminated?
The BLS report contains all the weekly wage data broken down by all the different categories, by men, by women, and by the total of both.

Quote:
As I said earlier, the different decisions between men and women may exist regardless of whether they have children.
What decision are childless women making that's not just different from the decisions childless men are making to explain the pay gap, but is so like the decisions women with children are making to explain the total lack of a gap there?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:47 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Not here. It was more shorthand for 'there are several examples that have already been show in this discussion, so the fact that it is a problem of some sort cannot reasonably be denied'.
Fair enough.

Quote:
That perspective appears useless to invoke here though when the argument isn't about the existence of social expectations and that some of some sort are inevitable, but about a specific subset of them.
Yeah but sometimes it'll be a bit hard to determine how to classify these expectations. What you find stifling for yourself may actually help others, etc. I'm saying that social expectations are not, in and of themselves, a net negative.

Quote:
And why highlight 'feels'. Is it a way to dismiss the arguments so far put forth?
No, simply a warning to take care about our own biases. They are stronger than we often realise or admit. We'll engage in quite a bit of mental gymnastics to justify the things we feel good about.

Quote:
A) yes it does or at least did. B) what sort of evidence would you like? These sort of things aren't exactly written down.
You don't think that this is a problem with your claim?

Quote:
Also, why have you ignored my point about organization of labor?
I didn't think it was an independant point, but a conclusion from the previous paragraph. That's why you started with "in short", isn't it? What, exactly, do you want me to address?
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:51 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
#
Not sure what counter argument you are making. Having children is a voluntary choice, no one has to have children. Having children comes with costs, some of those costs may be that you can't work as many hours for your employer so why would you expect to get the same wage?

Why should having children be something that you (in effect) get paid to do?
As I've said, the other costs that come with other voluntary choices aren't treated nearly the same way, and even women without children are penalized for that one particular "choice" even if they don't actually make that choice.

Plus what tyr_13 said.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:54 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
[fair points snipped]



You don't think that this is a problem with your claim?
Oh it certainly is a problem in studying this issue, but it isn't one that can't be overcome. I was more asking because there are a lot of ways to come at that request, and these pillars support each other, but I don't want to spend a lot of time on a massive data dump if I can narrow down what might be useful to you specifically.

We study many, many things that are nebulous and difficult to quantify. That doesn't make any such conclusions invalid, but it does require more than 'this test was done, results, any conflicting factors?'.



Quote:
I didn't think it was an independant point, but a conclusion from the previous paragraph. That's why you started with "in short", isn't it? What, exactly, do you want me to address?
I was just wondering if you admit that would be a problem, if true, or if I need to keep expounding on that end as well.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:56 AM   #96
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
The problem is that the issue of "choice" does not get applied evenly.
Yeah well that's the bitch of biology. We can't really escape it. If it's any comfort, if men take time off to help the mother out, they should get the same pay cut.

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I apologize, I wasn't taking it personally. I actually had forgotten about the cancer risk with smoking until you brought it up (I was so focused on COPD).
Oh, I'm sorry, then. That possibility didn't occur to me. When I think "cigarette" the only word that comes to me is "cancer".

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Yes, which means that anyone who chooses to smoke is well aware of what they could end up having to deal with before they ever start.
How about the risks of driving? Or of taking a plane? Or of eating lots of red meat?

The distinction I'm trying to make is that the potential risks of an action aren't the same as the desired result; the one you're specifically trying to get.

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Uteri don't come with a warning label, like cigarettes do.
In my last post I was struggling with whether I should add "maybe men should all get tattoos on their penises warning of potential pregnancies resulting from their use." but decided not to.

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The BLS report contains all the weekly wage data broken down by all the different categories, by men, by women, and by the total of both.
Well, I can't read it here, but I was talking about whether they compared men and women doing the same work for the same employer in the same area for the same level of experience and competence. That's a lot of things to keep track of and I'm not sure anyone's ever done such an exhaustive study.

For instance, if you have two Wal-Mart cashiers in their first year and doing the same work, are they paid the same hourly wage? It becomes a lot harder to do when you expand your study to include all sorts of people and employers and economic areas.

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What decision are childless women making that's not just different from the decisions childless men are making to explain the pay gap, but is so like the decisions women with children are making to explain the total lack of a gap there?
I don't have a definitive answer. I'm asking the question to make sure that this has been considered. For instance, women and men don't tend to pick the same careers to begin with. Whether that's due to social expectations, upbringing, genetics or a combination of those factors is one thing, but if those are factors that have real impacts on those numbers but have not been eliminated from the comparison, then it's impossible to reach a conclusion about the existence of discrimination as another factor.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:57 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
I was just wondering if you admit that would be a problem, if true, or if I need to keep expounding on that end as well.
I honestly have no idea. Maybe a bit more expounding would be needed.
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Old 9th March 2017, 09:14 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yeah well that's the bitch of biology. We can't really escape it. If it's any comfort, if men take time off to help the mother out, they should get the same pay cut.
Well, I think men should bear an equal share of childcare responsibilities, but I think it'd be better if it weren't tied to a penalty!

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Oh, I'm sorry, then. That possibility didn't occur to me. When I think "cigarette" the only word that comes to me is "cancer".
It should have been for me, too! Especially since one of my surgeries was to remove one lobe of my right lung due to cancer there!

But my actual thought process involved me remembering the surgeon talk about what my loss of lung function would be due to the lobe removal, and that I was in a much better place for post-op recovery because most people who get lung surgery like mine are also suffering from advanced COPD due to years of smoking (which I wasn't), so the loss of lung function is a lot more serious for them since they have so much less of it to begin with due to the COPD. Hence why the COPD, and not the cancer, loomed large in my mind as I wrote what I did.

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How about the risks of driving? Or of taking a plane? Or of eating lots of red meat?

The distinction I'm trying to make is that the potential risks of an action aren't the same as the desired result; the one you're specifically trying to get.
That's actually my point, though; there are a whole host of medical issues that are the consequence of the choices we make, but the only one that gets singled out is the one that almost exclusively affects women. I'm not trying to argue that people who get cancer from eating too much red meat or who have to spend time recovering from an accident because they were driving recklessly should be paid less and denied promotions at work because "hey, that's the result of choices they made in their lives". I'm saying that women dealing with childbirth and childcare issues also shouldn't be paid less and denied promotions at work because "hey, that's the result of choices they made in their lives".

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In my last post I was struggling with whether I should add "maybe men should all get tattoos on their penises warning of potential pregnancies resulting from their use." but decided not to.
I don't know, maybe it would help.

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Well, I can't read it here, but I was talking about whether they compared men and women doing the same work for the same employer in the same area for the same level of experience and competence. That's a lot of things to keep track of and I'm not sure anyone's ever done such an exhaustive study.
I'll have another look around. I have access to a major university research library that has copies of pretty much all the academic journals.

The BLS report, for its part, breaks things down for "full-time wage and salary workers", giving median weekly earnings for men, women, and the total, for a whole bunch of specific professions: "waiters and waitresses", "occupational therapy assistants and aides", "lawyers", "aerospace engineers", even "legislators", to take some at random. It's not quite as focused as your criteria above, but it's still pretty narrow in terms of what it's comparing.

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I don't have a definitive answer. I'm asking the question to make sure that this has been considered. For instance, women and men don't tend to pick the same careers to begin with. Whether that's due to social expectations, upbringing, genetics or a combination of those factors is one thing, but if those are factors that have real impacts on those numbers but have not been eliminated from the comparison, then it's impossible to reach a conclusion about the existence of discrimination as another factor.
That's why I'm glad the BLS report gives specific-profession to specific-profession comparisons.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:06 AM   #99
luchog
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I'm salaried, not hourly. I don't have any children. However, I've had to take a LOT of time off over the past year and a quarter due to cancer surgeries and chemotherapy treatments. Is it right for me to be paid less than my coworkers because of all the time I've missed at work? Would it be more right if I was paid less than my coworkers if all my missed work was because of childbirth and childcare issues?

Guess what, if you work fewer hours, you take home less pay. That's how the world works, and it doesn't matter if you are male or female. Pay is tied to work performed for the vast majority of us.

I've had to take large amounts of time off for health issues before, and I've gotten smaller paychecks because of the fact that I worked fewer hours (and didn't have enough PTO banked to cover the missed hours). That's life. I've even seen male friends let go from their jobs because they took too much time off for medical issues. That sucks, but that's how life works. It's not discrimination (or at least, not gender discrimination).
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:09 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Well, I think men should bear an equal share of childcare responsibilities
Again, biology makes us its bitch.

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but I think it'd be better if it weren't tied to a penalty!
Well, again, I don't know what you expect: if you take time off from work that isn't covered by medical leave or vacations, why would you be paid?

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That's actually my point, though; there are a whole host of medical issues that are the consequence of the choices we make, but the only one that gets singled out is the one that almost exclusively affects women.
Well, coming back to the biology bitch comment: only women can get pregnant. Nature's sexist that way.

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I'll have another look around. I have access to a major university research library that has copies of pretty much all the academic journals.

The BLS report, for its part, breaks things down for "full-time wage and salary workers", giving median weekly earnings for men, women, and the total, for a whole bunch of specific professions: "waiters and waitresses", "occupational therapy assistants and aides", "lawyers", "aerospace engineers", even "legislators", to take some at random. It's not quite as focused as your criteria above, but it's still pretty narrow in terms of what it's comparing.

That's why I'm glad the BLS report gives specific-profession to specific-profession comparisons.
To be clear: I despise discrimination based on sex. If employers are shown to do this without a good justification, then there should be severe penalties.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:15 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:



I have not had to do all of these things, but I've done a lot of them. So please; continue to tell me how there isn't a gender gap.
I've also had to do most things on that list, hell most are just basic self defense advice the rest basic manners.

Between self defense guides and life skills training packages I could find almost every one of these given as advice to men as well. And most are good solid advice if you like to stay on the paranoid side of safe actually I'd say a few don't go far enough.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:34 AM   #102
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One thing to consider is that in my experience, performance evaluations (and therefore pay raises) are usually linked to overall productivity, not productivity per hour present.

Someone who is absent a lot (for whatever reason) will likely be less productive than someone who misses very little work even if they accomplish more per hour while they are there.

Health issues affect work performance and often do result in diminished career advancement for both sexes.

I was going to make another point here, but I ran across this which seems relevant:
Quote:
The research paper “Even One Is Too Much: The Economic Consequences of Being a Smoker” has proven smokers earn 20 percent less than non-smokers. That’s right. Those who pause for smoke breaks during the work day, actually earn less than non-smokers which, for young adult smokers, translates to a loss of up to $10,000 a year.
https://www.glassdoor.com/blog/smokers-wage-gap/

Of course, such comparisons suffer from the same problems as the gender wage gap statistics. There are a lot of variables to account for. I know that sometimes new hires here make more than people who have been doing the same job for several years. (That's because the market rate for the position rises at a higher rate than our salaries increase.) It makes it hard to compare.

There maybe companies that assume that a woman is going to take off more time for kids etc. and further assume that they will be less productive. If so, that's wrong.

Usually, I was the one to take off work for our daughter because I was the one with the better leave benefits. My boss is the one who takes off for his kids as well. We also tend to put in a lot of hours at home as well, so our productivity doesn't suffer. In the end, we are evaluated on our overall productivity, not our attendance. your mileage may vary.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Caper View Post
I have a scenario.

Suppose you have a large warehouse. Say it was a very successful business and employed 2000 workers all doing the same job, say picking and filling orders, some shipping and receiving, that kind of stuff. You hire 1000 men and 1000 women. You pay them all $15 an hour and because the company always needs extra help you allow them to work 40 to 100 hours a week. They can choose to stay late, come in extra days, work double shifts, whatever they want. As long as it is between 40 and 100 hours.

After 5 years, which group would you expect to have earned the most money? The men or women? If you took the top 100 earners, what percentage would you expect to be men vs women?
Better yet, because women only earn 80% of what men earn for doing the same job, I would hire 2000 women and no men, and pay them $12 an hour. If they averaged 40 hours per week for 52 weeks per year for 5 years, I would save my company $62,400,000 in labor costs. My stockholders would love it!
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:44 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by bytewizard View Post
Better yet, because women only earn 80% of what men earn for doing the same job, I would hire 2000 women and no men, and pay them $12 an hour. If they averaged 40 hours per week for 52 weeks per year for 5 years, I would save my company $62,400,000 in labor costs. My stockholders would love it!
That's really the biggest argument against that claim. Somehow I had forgotten about it.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:49 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by Sabrina View Post
Very true. For example, 32 Everyday Things Women Do That Men Don't Have to Worry About:


I have not had to do all of these things, but I've done a lot of them. So please; continue to tell me how there isn't a gender gap.
I literally did Number 1 ( Carrying your keys in your hand as a “weapon” when walking alone at night) last night while walking through the Loop in Chicago
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:52 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's really the biggest argument against that claim. Somehow I had forgotten about it.
That presupposes intentional, conscious, discrimination, is the primary mechanism for the income disparity overall, AND that just because something is better to do, some company not only recognize that, but also do it.

Yet despite all the evidence that workers who take their breaks and vacations are happier and much more productive, companies consistently both intentionally and unintentionally prevent those as well. Just because something is better for the bottom line does not mean more than a few companies know that and will actually do it.
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Old 9th March 2017, 10:55 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
That presupposes intentional, conscious, discrimination, is the primary mechanism for the income disparity overall, AND that just because something is better to do, some company not only recognize that, but also do it.
Irrelevant: their books would show that they pay women less (which is illegal), so it'd be hard to miss.

Yes, one can discriminate unconsciously. Now, what do you want to do about people's unconscious biases?

Quote:
Yet despite all the evidence that workers who take their breaks and vacations are happier and much more productive, companies consistently both intentionally and unintentionally prevent those as well. Just because something is better for the bottom line does not mean more than a few companies know that and will actually do it.
At all? NONE of them do it!
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Old 9th March 2017, 11:23 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Guess what, if you work fewer hours, you take home less pay. That's how the world works, and it doesn't matter if you are male or female. Pay is tied to work performed for the vast majority of us.
Except that even when controlled for numbers of hours worked, there's still a pay disparity.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That's really the biggest argument against that claim. Somehow I had forgotten about it.
Not really, since there's always been resistance to having women in the workforce for reasons that had nothing to do with how much they get paid.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Irrelevant: their books would show that they pay women less (which is illegal), so it'd be hard to miss.
Their books do show that, though. That's what the BLS report is all about. What's at issue is how the plain fact that women are paid less is (ostensibly) justified.
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Old 9th March 2017, 11:29 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Except that even when controlled for numbers of hours worked, there's still a pay disparity.

Which is what, and where is the documentation that compares equivalent positions and responsibilities?
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Old 9th March 2017, 11:32 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Which is what, and where is the documentation that compares equivalent positions and responsibilities?
Both of those are in the BLS report I linked above.
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Old 9th March 2017, 11:35 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Irrelevant: their books would show that they pay women less (which is illegal), so it'd be hard to miss.

Yes, one can discriminate unconsciously. Now, what do you want to do about people's unconscious biases?

Actually in the hypothetical there, no difference would be determinable between male and female employees of the same position because there wouldn't be any male employees to compare them to.

Change the expectations. For example, if everyone believed it wasn't just acceptable for a man to take as much time off as a woman for child related activities and work as many hours as productively regardless of gender, but was expected to happen, then not only would the people making hiring, scheduling, and advancement choices for the business would not even unknowingly bias those choices, but the employees themselves would be less likely to actually choose the less optimal choices. More men would work less, and earn a bit less, more women would work more and earn a bit more, more people who want to see and raise their children more could do that, without the choices of others effecting their options.


Quote:
At all? NONE of them do it!
Yeah, it is a bit perplexing why that's the case in the US, but in many countries businesses are actually serious about people getting their brakes in a timely manner and actually taking vacation time.
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Old 9th March 2017, 12:19 PM   #112
luchog
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Yeah, it is a bit perplexing why that's the case in the US, but in many countries businesses are actually serious about people getting their brakes in a timely manner and actually taking vacation time.

When I worked at Amazon the last time, I dealt with branches of the company in other countries, and was surprised at just how little PTO and paid holidays that we in the US get compared to other countries like the UK, France, Japan, and India.

Most companies I've worked for not only did not actively encourage taking PTO, but in some cases made it extremely difficult to do so. One in particular, Earthlink, required at the time I worked there that all PTO be scheduled at a minimum of 6 weeks in advance, preferably 12, and did not allow sick days at all. Employees could call in sick and the time would be deducted from their PTO, but doing so would earn penalty points. Too many penalty points in a certain amount of time would be an automatic black mark on your record, which would affect compensation and bonuses, and too many more would result in an automatic firing, not subject to appeal. If you had any serious health issues, it was far too easy to get fired that way, and it happened to one of my co-workers while I worked there.

Amazon wasn't that bad, but fostered a climate of workaholism, rewarding people who put in lots of extra overtime (besides the huge amounts of mandatory overtime), and effectively penalized people who didn't. Entire articles have been written about this grueling and occasionally toxic aspect of Amazon corporate culture.

I've never worked at a company that actively encouraged employees to take time off for any reason other than not risking spreading serious illnesses (such as influenza) to other employees. The most "encouragement" they gave was to set yearly caps on your PTO accrual, and simply take away anything over the cap when the year rolled over; which resulted in a lot of employees competing for days off in order to burn off their excess PTO near the end of the fiscal year.

That's been a problem with other benefits as well, the companies don't like it when you actually use them. I recall one study a while back where the US ranked top in the industrialized world for hours worked, and way down the list for PTO available and/or taken, and among the lowest for benefits provided. I don't know if that is still the case, but it wouldn't surprise me.
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Old 9th March 2017, 12:28 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Not really, since there's always been resistance to having women in the workforce for reasons that had nothing to do with how much they get paid.
Again, this is a claim. This isn't the 50s anymore.

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Their books do show that, though.
Hence my point: they'd hire women in order to reduce the costs. Of course it doesn't happen, because it's illegal.
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Old 9th March 2017, 12:29 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Actually in the hypothetical there, no difference would be determinable between male and female employees of the same position because there wouldn't be any male employees to compare them to.
No, the hypothetical is the result of the calculation, not the starting point.

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Yeah, it is a bit perplexing why that's the case in the US, but in many countries businesses are actually serious about people getting their brakes in a timely manner and actually taking vacation time.
No, I mean nobody employs only women to save on costs.
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Old 9th March 2017, 12:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Again, this is a claim. This isn't the 50s anymore.
There’s still a lot of resistance to women entering male dominated fields, such as in STEM.

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Hence my point: they'd hire women in order to reduce the costs. Of course it doesn't happen, because it's illegal.
Only if you assume that companies don't think believe that there are other costs elsewhere in employing women (even if they're wrong in their assumptions, such as the "motherhood tax" being applied to even childless women) and that they only ever make business decisions based on their payroll expenses.
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Old 9th March 2017, 12:51 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
There’s still a lot of resistance to women entering male dominated fields, such as in STEM.
A'isha, when someone points out that something is a claim, responding with another version of the claim doesn't constitute support for that claim. I've heard that one about STEM quite a bit but so far it's not substantiated.

Quote:
Only if you assume that companies don't think believe that there are other costs elsewhere in employing women (even if they're wrong in their assumptions, such as the "motherhood tax" being applied to even childless women) and that they only ever make business decisions based on their payroll expenses.
Point taken.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:13 PM   #117
A'isha
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
A'isha, when someone points out that something is a claim, responding with another version of the claim doesn't constitute support for that claim. I've heard that one about STEM quite a bit but so far it's not substantiated.
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence for it, but I tried to find something that wasn't purely anecdotal.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:15 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
http://www.pnas.org/content/109/41/16474

There's a lot of anecdotal evidence for it, but I tried to find something that wasn't purely anecdotal.
Well, thanks for your efforts at least, and for the pleasant debate so far.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:27 PM   #119
A'isha
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well, thanks for your efforts at least, and for the pleasant debate so far.
Likewise.
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Old 9th March 2017, 01:52 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, the hypothetical is the result of the calculation, not the starting point.
Right, but the point about 'it'd show in their books' applies to neither.



Quote:
No, I mean nobody employs only women to save on costs.

OHhhh, duh. I should have realize that that was what you were talking about.

In that case, the same issue comes up again, this isn't something companies are doing on purpose in most cases. That's probably also why people who work making those decisions take offense and don't believe there is a problem. They don't think they are effecting these outcomes so they don't think they could leverage them.

Furthermore, if the companies think women are getting less money because they're doing less work, then hiring only women won't save them money. They see it has having to hire more people to get the same work out. They're too busy trying to get much more labor than they've actually paid for out of the people they already have.
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