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Old 15th March 2017, 02:14 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And? It still means they'd display the behaviour expected for that job. It doesn't seem to me like you know what you're trying to argue.
Yes, they display the behavior expected for the job... but it's behavior that is NOT expected of women. Not behaving in accord with the expectation is frequently viewed in a negative light.

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The assertive, authoritative, and dominant behaviors that people link with leadership tend not to be viewed as attractive in women.
http://www.leadershippsychologyinsti...ward-vs-heidi/
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Old 15th March 2017, 02:18 PM   #242
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Lol... to tie together a couple of distinctly different threads... the expectation of behavior from women versus men could very well be one of the larger factors in this last election outcome. I'm certainly not immune from being shaped by social bias, much as I try really hard to be aware of them. On the topic of behavioral expectations and biases against women in leadership, I hit this piece:

Are Successful Women Really Less Likable Than Successful Men?

And then I giggled out loud, partly at myself, when I read this bit:
Quote:
It feels true. The ruthless, friendless lady-in-charge is a tired trope in pop culture and politics: c.f. Miranda Priestly in The Devil Wears Prada and Tracy Flick in Election, or President Obama's infamous "You're likable enough, Hillary" line from the 2008 primary.

But I wondered how true it actually is. After all, it's easy to point to anecdotal rebuttals. Despite Obama's primary-race condescension, Hillary Clinton's approval rating when she stepped down as Secretary of State was higher than Obama's. And there are plenty of wildly successful men whom many people cannot stand: Donald Trump, Mitt Romney, and Decision-era LeBron James come to mind.
Seems a bit spot-on, despite being written in 2013.
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Old 15th March 2017, 02:49 PM   #243
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Fair point. I can sometimes be a little too serious... but I also really don't care for pet names except from my mommy and my spouse.
I'll keep that in mind, hon.

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I don't think you've yet supported the claim that it's the other way round either though.
Well again, this is pretty basic, established biology.

Quote:
Now hold on a minute! WTH?
The first quote doesn't say that there are no differences in earnings or wage. Saying that the "wage gap" is a myth, especially since I specifically called it an earnings gap, isn't denying the existence of differences, and it certainly isn't denying the existence of an earnings difference, is it?

The second and third quotes also don't say that it's "only" due to choices, but, specifically, that it's MAINLY (you quoted that word!) due to choices. How you can support a claim by quoting me saying something that doesn't support it is quite bafflilng. So baffling, in fact, that I misspelled baffling.

What do you think your argument boils down to, if not what I framed it as?

Quote:
You've repeatedly quibbled about wage vs. earnings
Because it's a crucial distinction. If I work for 20$ an hour, and another person works for the same wage, and I work 30 hours a week and they work 35 a week, seeing that I don't earn the same amount per year doesn't mean I'm being discriminated against. You need to control for all of those things that I mentioned about the "wage gap", and a single percentage that's aggregated from ALL people who work full time in the US doesn't do that.

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and then hand-waved away the vast majority of the earnings difference as being the result of the choices that women make.
How is it hand-waved when it's TRUE? Can any use of facts be called a hand-wave? The 23% is reduced to about 4% when you account for all the obvious things like the ones I mentioned. How is that not the "vast majority" of the difference?

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You repeatedly avoid discussion of any possible causes other than the choices that women make.
How do I avoid a discussion by participating in it?

Quote:
You even support your view that it's almost all because of choices with a naturalistic fallacy!
Using our natural tendencies as an explanation for observation isn't what the naturalistic fallacy is. I suggest you look up the term.
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Old 15th March 2017, 02:52 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, they display the behavior expected for the job... but it's behavior that is NOT expected of women.
Well, that'd be a contradiction then, one that I'm at a loss to address.
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:05 PM   #245
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My wife earns 4 times what I earn. Unfair!

She's a doctor. I manage a medical clinic. I put her through school, putting off my own school to care for the kids. Choices.

She works in a clinic with 4 male doctors who all make double what she makes. Unfair!

She's a Family Medicine doctor; the males are surgeons. Choices.

We all make different choices. On aggregate, women make different choices than men. There's your wage gap.

Someone mentioned earlier that they are a woman who got offered lowball salaries. Why did you accept a lowball offer? Did you not negotiate? Are women less inclined to negotiate than men?
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Old 15th March 2017, 03:27 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'll keep that in mind, hon.
Buttons aren't toys!

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Well again, this is pretty basic, established biology.
Well, no. You're assuming that the biological difference causes different career choices.

I'll agree that there's a correlation here. It's the causality that I'm not sold on.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post

The first quote doesn't say that there are no differences in earnings or wage. Saying that the "wage gap" is a myth, especially since I specifically called it an earnings gap, isn't denying the existence of differences, and it certainly isn't denying the existence of an earnings difference, is it?

The second and third quotes also don't say that it's "only" due to choices, but, specifically, that it's MAINLY (you quoted that word!) due to choices. How you can support a claim by quoting me saying something that doesn't support it is quite bafflilng. So baffling, in fact, that I misspelled baffling.

What do you think your argument boils down to, if not what I framed it as?
I'm not seeing a material difference here. Sure, you say it's an earnings gap and that there's no difference in wage. You imply that the per-hour equivalents are the same across the board when controlling for a host of other factors. At the same time, you've been given evidence that shows higher starting salaries for men, and more frequent promotions for me. So the earnings argument falls a bit flat when you start looking outside of hourly positions. You've also previously been given evidence and studies that look at different job titles for men and women, with immaterial differences in roles and responsibilities, but with material differences in salary. So a rose by a different name gets paid less. That also diminishes the validity of your argument that there is no wage gap. Because, as pointed out to you, when you transform salary into wage-equivalent, the variance persists and there are differences in starting salary, differences in promotion frequency, and different job titles.

At the point, there really isn't any meaningful difference between you saying "vast majority" due to choice and "only" due to choice - especially when you repeatedly fail to recognize and accept any of those other factors that are at play, and when you persist in arguing that men and women just "naturally" want different kinds of jobs because of biology.

If you actually made the effort to discuss some of those other factors in any reasonable capacity, I'd give you more credit. But you don't. You say "vast majority", withholding that teensy sliver of *maybe* something else, and then you use that as a foil when you're accused of arguing that the difference is only due to choice... and yet you won't acknowledge or discuss anything except choice as the factor at play.

Where is that supposed to leave the argument? You get your cake and eat it too?
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:43 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Let's play a decision-making game.

Let's say you're entering college, and you want to go into the medical profession.

Let's say that doctors, on average, earn about $100K to start, the 5-yr salary is about $250K, and the 10-yr salary is also $250K.

Nurses, on the other hand, earn about $30K to start, the 5-yr is about $40K and the 10-yr is about $50K.

Which would you choose to study?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now let's add some more complexity to this.

Let's say that the placement rate for doctors out of school is about 50%, and the placement rate for nurses is about 80%.

Which one do you choose?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now for that last layer...

Let's say that the placement rate for male doctors out of school is about 75% and the placement rate for female doctors out of school is about 10%. The placement rate for male nurses is about 50% and the placement rate for female nurses is about 85%.

Which do you choose?

Which do you choose if you're female?

This is easy. If I want to be a doctor, I choose to study and train to be a doctor. If I want to be a nurse, I choose to study and train to be a nurse.

I would hope both males and females figure this out. Alas, the distracting complexity of weighing salaries, status, placement rates, school costs, gender expectations and a lot of other stuff can cause people, especially young people entering college, to forget the most important consideration.

I'm proud to declare that I've done my part to address the gender disparity in earnings, by being male and choosing in my life a series of intellectually and emotionally rewarding but low paying careers, in each case because I was interested in the work.

Is it possible that statistically more men are engaged in high-paying jobs that they hate, because women make wiser choices?
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Old 15th March 2017, 05:58 PM   #248
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Someone mentioned earlier that they are a woman who got offered lowball salaries. Why did you accept a lowball offer? Did you not negotiate? Are women less inclined to negotiate than men?
http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/ec...dont_get_them/
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Old 15th March 2017, 07:04 PM   #249
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Well, no. You're assuming that the biological difference causes different career choices.
I'm saying it's one cause. Are you seriously contending that biolodgy is NOT a factor in decision making?

Quote:
I'm not seeing a material difference here. Sure, you say it's an earnings gap and that there's no difference in wage.
No, that's again a misreading. It's like pulling teeth. I'm saying that the 77% figure is about earnings. Not wages. That's it. Stop trying to make it mean something more.

Quote:
You imply that the per-hour equivalents are the same across the board when controlling for a host of other factors.
No. I also specifically mentioned that there is still a 4% (approx.) difference.

Quote:
At the same time, you've been given evidence that shows higher starting salaries for men, and more frequent promotions [for men]. So the earnings argument falls a bit flat when you start looking outside of hourly positions.
No it doesn't. The problem is that any discrepancy is seen as pointing to discrimination when it's not clear that it does.

Quote:
You've also previously been given evidence and studies that look at different job titles for men and women, with immaterial differences in roles and responsibilities, but with material differences in salary. So a rose by a different name gets paid less.
Yes I've acknowledged that, but it's not uniquely a female problem.

Quote:
That also diminishes the validity of your argument that there is no wage gap.
Now this is getting more than tiresome. How about you make an effort to represent my argument properly, especially after so many corrections?

Quote:
At the point, there really isn't any meaningful difference between you saying "vast majority" due to choice and "only" due to choice
It is a VAST difference. 70% and 100%, for example, are NOT the same thing, unless you're rounding up to the nearest 100. I'm sorry but this sort of extreme vagueness is ridiculous. Words mean something.

Quote:
especially when you repeatedly fail to recognize and accept any of those other factors that are at play
Another lie.

Quote:
and when you persist in arguing that men and women just "naturally" want different kinds of jobs because of biology.
I have never said that. Stop misrepresenting me.

Quote:
You say "vast majority", withholding that teensy sliver of *maybe* something else, and then you use that as a foil when you're accused of arguing that the difference is only due to choice...
No, the failure to understand the things I'm saying is entirely yours. That I don't go down the same path as you and definitely choose an easy, simplistic solution is not a flaw.
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Old 15th March 2017, 09:09 PM   #250
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
OK, so we have some evidence that Australian women do ask for raises but don't get them. Now we need to know why that is. And we need to know if the observations that apply in Australia also apply elsewhere, like the US.

Even the paper itself doesn't go so far as to ascribe this "ask but don't get" phenomenon to discrimination. The paper also points out that there is an "observed difference in the mean number of working hours between men and women." Couldn't it be that because women tend to work less hours than men, women are less likely to get a raise they asked for?

I'm in an interesting position. I've seen my wife's career advance from a mother at 17 going to college, getting in to Med School, having her own business and now being employed by a hospital. I have never observed that her femininity has been an obstacle. In fact, it seems to have helped her. There is a demand for female doctors which she meets. Her pay level, currently, exceeds that of the male doctors I currently manage by a good margin. In fact, she moonlights for them and they pay her a rate that actually exceeds theirs.

She has still experienced discrimination. There was a professor who told her she should stay home and raise her kids. There were senior residents who thought she was "bitchy." There were school administrators who blamed our kid's issues with ADD on the fact that she wasn't a stay-at-home mom (what am I, chopped liver?). Obstacles for sure but they didn't stop her from being one of the top earning family physicians in our area regardless of sex.

I know that my experiences are not universal, but I think they are illustrative. It's one data point, I realize, -and anecdotal at that- but how bad can the situation be if a hispanic woman who was a teenage mom was able to get to where she is, in a male-dominated field in South Texas, land of Machismo?
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Old 16th March 2017, 12:00 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I don't think you know how statistics work, then. You have way too little data to reach a reliable conclusion.
Perhaps you should reread what my actual conclusion was, not the conclusion that you think you are arguing, e.g.,
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
So yes, in my personal experience, women face more actual risks of personal attack, and more frequently, than men do.
Inarguable - as this is indeed my personal experience.
Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
I'd not be surprised if there was actual data out there that also supported these personal experiences.
And unsurprisingly, crime statistics do indeed support the conclusion that these womens' experiences are not imagined risks, but actuality.
http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/...es/statistics/
http://www.aware.org.sg/training/wsh...14-statistics/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...ual-harassment
https://www.rainn.org/statistics/vic...exual-violence
http://www.911rape.org/facts-quotes/statistics

The above should satisfactorily answer your question that I responded to.
Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Do they have to worry about it because an actual risk exists, or because they perceive that a risk exists?
Yes. It is an actual risk - women are disproportionately targeted in sexual assaults and harassment, compared to men.
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Your conclusion, therefore, is too subjective to be worth considering.
My conclusion is supported by actual real-world crime statistics, so I have no problem concluding that the experiences related to me by women reflect an actual, disproportionate risk to women, not just their perception of that risk.
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Old 16th March 2017, 03:23 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
Inarguable - as this is indeed my personal experience.
But you're wrong. Men face a greater risk from violence.

Quote:
And unsurprisingly, crime statistics do indeed support the conclusion that these womens' experiences are not imagined risks, but actuality.
Then why have several male members of this forum reported that they, in fact, also have to deal with those perceived risks?

And notice that I didn't say "imagined". That is a word you brought in the discussion, and it doesn't have the same meaning as "perceived", but you know that, of course.

Quote:
Yes. It is an actual risk - women are disproportionately targeted in sexual assaults and harassment, compared to men.
Why did you just talk about sexual assault and harassment when the list is broader than that? It wouldn't be because doing so gives a misleading impression that you're right when you're not, would it?

Quote:
My conclusion is supported by actual real-world crime statistics, so I have no problem concluding that the experiences related to me by women reflect an actual, disproportionate risk to women, not just their perception of that risk.
So you're trying to have your cake and eat it, too. On the one hand you made a point to tell me that it was just your personal opinion and thus my objection that it wasn't a valid sample is irrelevant... and then went right on to say that it wasn't, in fact, your personal opinion. So which is it?
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:23 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Even the paper itself doesn't go so far as to ascribe this "ask but don't get" phenomenon to discrimination.
Actually, they do note that "Such a finding is potentially consistent with the existence of discrimination in the labor market."

Quote:
The paper also points out that there is an "observed difference in the mean number of working hours between men and women." Couldn't it be that because women tend to work less hours than men, women are less likely to get a raise they asked for?
No, because they specifically control for number of hours worked, and yet the phenomenon persists (and the study's authors note that working less hours is not correlated with asking but not getting, but with not asking in the first place).

Quote:
She has still experienced discrimination. There was a professor who told her she should stay home and raise her kids. There were senior residents who thought she was "bitchy." There were school administrators who blamed our kid's issues with ADD on the fact that she wasn't a stay-at-home mom (what am I, chopped liver?). Obstacles for sure but they didn't stop her from being one of the top earning family physicians in our area regardless of sex.
Despite the fact that you admit your wife has faced open discrimination, you're convinced this discrimination was no obstacle to her and completely dismiss discrimination as a possible explanation for the "don't ask don't get" phenomenon demonstrably faced by other women?

Quote:
I know that my experiences are not universal, but I think they are illustrative. It's one data point, I realize, -and anecdotal at that- but how bad can the situation be if a hispanic woman who was a teenage mom was able to get to where she is, in a male-dominated field in South Texas, land of Machismo?
Good for her! But she's not exactly representative; the single anecdotal example of your wife is not actually a data point against either this or the other studies cited in this thread.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:39 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes I've acknowledged that, but it's not uniquely a female problem.
How is "All else being equal women get paid less, hired less, and promoted less than their male counterparts" not a uniquely female problem?

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Now this is getting more than tiresome. How about you make an effort to represent my argument properly, especially after so many corrections?
...
Humor me, please. You're irritated that I've boiled your argument down to what I perceive as the essence of them: a persistent justification of the difference in pay and career advancement faced by women because of the choices they make due to biology. That is what I perceive your argument to be, and you have claimed this isn't your argument, and I'm misrepresenting your position.

So please, tell me what your position is.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:40 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
How is "All else being equal women get paid less, hired less, and promoted less than their male counterparts" not a uniquely female problem?
Ok this is the last bit of dishonesty that I'm taking from you. I'm done here.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:42 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
But you're wrong. Men face a greater risk from violence.
Not from the same kinds of violence, not at the same frequency, and not violence that is targeted at them for being men.

Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Then why have several male members of this forum reported that they, in fact, also have to deal with those perceived risks?
A couple of anecdotes from men who have experienced the same thing does NOT make it an equivalent magnitude of experience.

This is tantamount to saying "Well, I know a guy who got raped once, therefore there is no need to think about the risk of rape that women face. It happens to men too, there's nothing special about it, and women are just blowing this way out of proportion."


Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why did you just talk about sexual assault and harassment when the list is broader than that? It wouldn't be because doing so gives a misleading impression that you're right when you're not, would it?
Because the broader violence that you're talking about isn't relevant.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:44 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Despite the fact that you admit your wife has faced open discrimination, you're convinced this discrimination was no obstacle to her and completely dismiss discrimination as a possible explanation for the "don't ask don't get" phenomenon demonstrably faced by other women?
No kidding!

Some few women being able to overcome an obstacle doesn't mean that the obstacle doesn't exist.

Similar topic: poverty. A person born into poverty is likely to continue in poverty because there are significant barriers to shifting between those classes. If someone comes along and tells you that they started out poor and managed to become wealthy... does that mean that anyone can do it and there's no barrier there at all? Of course not! It just means that it's not a perfectly impermeable barrier, but it is still an obstacle.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:49 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Not from the same kinds of violence, not at the same frequency, and not violence that is targeted at them for being men.
Do you have stats for this? As 65% of murder victims are men (in the UK at least, I believe it's much higher in the US) I'm wondering how it is that woman can suffer a greater frequency and impact of violence. In the domestic setting, yes, but generally? I'd be interested to see that.

It is true, of course, that men commit most of these murders.
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Old 16th March 2017, 04:59 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Do you have stats for this? As 65% of murder victims are men (in the UK at least, I believe it's much higher in the US) I'm wondering how it is that woman can suffer a greater frequency and impact of violence. In the domestic setting, yes, but generally? I'd be interested to see that.

It is true, of course, that men commit most of these murders.
What part of "not the same kinds of violence" didn't make it through my statement of "not the same kinds of violence"?
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:06 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
A couple of anecdotes from men who have experienced the same thing does NOT make it an equivalent magnitude of experience.

This is tantamount to saying "Well, I know a guy who got raped once, therefore there is no need to think about the risk of rape that women face. It happens to men too, there's nothing special about it, and women are just blowing this way out of proportion."
It's just as good as lisitng things that some women say they have to do because they perceive a risk. Anecdotes are just as good as other anecdotes, but the difference, of course, is that one of them fits one's biases.
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:10 PM   #261
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
What part of "not the same kinds of violence" didn't make it through my statement of "not the same kinds of violence"?
Obviously I made an error thinking you were making a point instead of a floating a nebulous comment with no substance. I'll know next time.
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:16 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It's just as good as lisitng things that some women say they have to do because they perceive a risk. Anecdotes are just as good as other anecdotes, but the difference, of course, is that one of them fits one's biases.
You were also given data. Not by me, but it's here in this thread, not even hard to find.
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:25 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
Obviously I made an error thinking you were making a point instead of a floating a nebulous comment with no substance. I'll know next time.
I was making a point. I just don't know what point you think you're making.

Men are seldom attacked on their way to their car when it's dark out. It happens, sure, but it happens much more to women than to men.

Men are seldom attacked and raped by strangers, or even by people they know. Sure it happens... but it happens much more often to women than to men.

Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses. Sure it happens, but it happens significantly less often to men than to women.

Men are seldom sexually harassed while walking down the street. They rarely encounter catcalls directed at them. They are almost never groped in public places without their consent. Sure, those things occasionally happen to men, but they happen significantly more frequently to women.

These are things that make women generally more afraid to be in unfamiliar territory, to go on dates with strangers, to walk to their cars at night.

Yes, they *can* happen to men too. But they don't happen nearly as often as they do to women. Not even close. Men in general don't need to be afraid that the person walking behind them might be intending to rape them. Men in general don't need to be worried that the blind date they're meeting might try to assault them. Men in general don't have to worry about whether the outfit they are wearing will lead someone to approach them and grab them in a sexual manner. Men in general don't have to be concerned about women cat-calling and harassing them as they're walking down a public street.

None of these are equivalent and fungible with the likelihood to get into a fist-fight or get mugged or get murdered by the other man that you pissed off.

These are violence perpetrated selectively against women by men.

Please tell me about the violence perpetrated against men by women that men feel a constant need to be on guard against. I'm really quite curious to know what you think is comparable and why you feel it qualifies as equivalent.
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:27 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Ok this is the last bit of dishonesty that I'm taking from you. I'm done here.
Oooh, nicely done. Call it dishonesty, without any explanation as to why you believe it constitutes dishonesty... then once again dodge that inconvenience of having to actually state your position and explain how I've got you all wrong on this. That is some expert level tap dancing, my friend.

I'll see you in a couple of months, and we can do this tango again!
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Old 16th March 2017, 05:47 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
You were also given data. Not by me, but it's here in this thread, not even hard to find.
Quote:
Call it dishonesty, without any explanation as to why you believe it constitutes dishonesty...
You know, I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt up to this point but your constant switching of one argument to another as if no one will notice, even after I've pointed it out to you several times, can only be attributed to deliberate dishonesty. And that then you pretend to not understand what's dishonest about it, after I explained it to you, is downright malicious.
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Old 17th March 2017, 03:23 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses. Sure it happens, but it happens significantly less often to men than to women.
Would over 200 studies contradicting this statement suffice?
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
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Old 17th March 2017, 03:36 AM   #267
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Perpetual female victimhood is still a thing?
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Old 17th March 2017, 06:11 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
None of these are equivalent and fungible with the likelihood to get into a fist-fight or get mugged or get murdered by the other man that you pissed off.
Oh I see, so if a man is the victim of violent crime he's asking for it? But if a woman is the victim, she's automatically an innocent victim?

Nice.

Maybe you missed the multiple posts I wrote on this subject in this thread.
Quote:
These are violence perpetrated selectively against women by men.
Where is your evidence that this is case, given that men are more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Yes, women are also victims of crime, but a quick walk around any prison, and you'll find an overwhelming leaning towards not harming women. Any man convicted of violence against a woman generally has a hard time in prison. (I used to know quite a few people who worked in prisons.)

Remember, we are talking about violent crime here. Not sexual assaults (wow, you really wouldn't want to be sex offender in prison), or fear of crime... just violent crime, so things like being beaten up etc.
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Old 17th March 2017, 06:17 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom attacked on their way to their car when it's dark out. It happens, sure, but it happens much more to women than to men.
What makes you think women are attacked on their way to their car more than men are? Is there some significance to "on their way to their car?" Is there some reason to think that dark car parks or lonely parking garages make men safer from muggers or strangers with intent to commit violence?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom attacked and raped by strangers, or even by people they know. Sure it happens... but it happens much more often to women than to men.
Women are also seldom attacked and raped by strangers. I understand that the vast majority of rape is committed by someone known to the victim.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses. Sure it happens, but it happens significantly less often to men than to women.
already fielded by wobs


Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom sexually harassed while walking down the street. They rarely encounter catcalls directed at them. They are almost never groped in public places without their consent. Sure, those things occasionally happen to men, but they happen significantly more frequently to women.
I keep hearing how often women are cat-called, but I never (ever) see it in real life. Only on TV shows, or in staged and edited videos. And I work in downtown Atlanta, not some podunk unpopulated town.
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Old 17th March 2017, 06:29 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Would over 200 studies contradicting this statement suffice?
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
That's not actually "over 200 studies contradicting this statement". It's, shall we say, extensively padded. Most aren't about "assaults by women", as the title at the top claims, and a significant number aren't even about physical violence, but are things like studies of hostility (which is defined as things like negative attitudes or criticisms). Nine are about critiquing "feminist ideology". At least one study is specifically about suicides. Some aren't even "studies" at all - he cites, for instance, several chapters of a book by MRA writer Warren Farrell in his list.

EDIT: And I was wondering why the department and school seemed so familiar...the Department of Psychology, California State University, Long Beach is also the home of notorious anti-Semitic professor Kevin MacDonald (who thinks Jews are genetically predisposed to try and infiltrate non-Jewish societies and cultures to take them over).
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Old 17th March 2017, 06:31 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
I was making a point. I just don't know what point you think you're making.
You seemed to contend the statement that men suffer more from violent crime than women. Hence, my response. If you were only making the point that women experience violence in different ways then... OK, maybe in certain circumstances, and..?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom attacked on their way to their car when it's dark out. It happens, sure, but it happens much more to women than to men.
I'd very much like to see evidence of this, assuming 'on their way to their car when it's dark out' means going out on foot at night (otherwise your assertion is bizarrely specific). Your assertion is utterly at odds with my experience, and, more importantly, with the facts.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom attacked and raped by strangers, or even by people they know. Sure it happens... but it happens much more often to women than to men.
Raped, true. Attacked - nonsense.

The ONS (UK) stress that attacks by strangers on men vs on women shows the greatest differentiation of all violent crime.

Quote:
Stranger violence showed the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.4% and 0.4% respectively).
Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses.
Almost half of domestic violence victims in the UK are male according to this report.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...estic-violence

The ONS gives the figure as only slightly more skewed towards women.

Quote:
Women were more likely to be a victim of domestic violence than men (0.4% compared with 0.2%

Neither bears out your assertion.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom sexually harassed while walking down the street. They rarely encounter catcalls directed at them. They are almost never groped in public places without their consent.
That is the most absurd statement so far. 'Almost never groped in public places without their consent." Now maybe you're in the US where things may be very (very!) different, but here that's not the case. If I were to tot up the number of times I've had my ass grabbed, my chest, my genitals (and that hurts for a male, believe me) then we're talking 300, 500, 1000+ times. I don't know, I didn't count, but how does that compare with your tally? Men simply don't care about these things and don't report them.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Sure, those things occasionally happen to men, but they happen significantly more frequently to women.
Wrong.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
These are things that make women generally more afraid to be in unfamiliar territory, to go on dates with strangers, to walk to their cars at night.
Nobody assesses danger by comparing their perceived risk with that of another group. A woman might well feel nervous or frightened of doing certain things, so may a man. And..?

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yes, they *can* happen to men too. But they don't happen nearly as often as they do to women. Not even close.

Men in general don't need to be afraid that the person walking behind them might be intending to rape them.
But they might well be afraid they'll be stabbed, knocked out, kicked for no reason, pushed into the road or robbed. It happens dozens of times a night in every town and city in the land. You're far more likely to be subject to violent crime as a man than a woman, as you've seen from the figures. In the US the discrepancy is even more pronounced.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men in general don't need to be worried that the blind date they're meeting might try to assault them.
Eventually you've come up with something I broadly agree on. However, blind dates are avoidable. Don't want to take the risk, don't go on a blind date. Simple. Hardly the same as walking down the street.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men in general don't have to worry about whether the outfit they are wearing will lead someone to approach them and grab them in a sexual manner.
No, men don't worry about being grabbed, although it happens all the time, but I'd hazard a guess that a few million gay men have issues with being beaten up, abused or murdered, as happens regularly in both the UK and the US. I don't see many lesbians being treated in this way, but hey, let's not worry about that, let's all get our hankies out for the poor girl who dresses for attention and then gets wolf whistled. It's all about priorities.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men in general don't have to be concerned about women cat-calling and harassing them as they're walking down a public street.
Very true, men couldn't give a stuff.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
None of these are equivalent and fungible with the likelihood to get into a fist-fight or get mugged or get murdered by the other man that you pissed off.
Look at the stats. Men are the overwhelming victims of these crimes.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
These are violence perpetrated selectively against women by men.
You're so far from proving your point it's not funny.

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Please tell me about the violence perpetrated against men by women that men feel a constant need to be on guard against. I'm really quite curious to know what you think is comparable and why you feel it qualifies as equivalent.
Aside from the 40% of domestic violence victims in the UK (see previous link) and over 50% of domestic violence victims in Canada?

Of course, there's also the under-reporting by males to consider.

Quote:
Could the same be true in other countries – like the UK? It’s possible: the ManKind Initiative say only 10 per cent of male victims will tell the police, as opposed to 26 per cent of women.
It is of course true, as I have already said (I guess you missed it) that most violence in general is perpetrated by men, but that's not a great source of comfort if you're a victim of it.
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:02 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Oh I see, so if a man is the victim of violent crime he's asking for it? But if a woman is the victim, she's automatically an innocent victim?
No.

Originally Posted by wobs View Post

Maybe you missed the multiple posts I wrote on this subject in this thread.

Where is your evidence that this is case, given that men are more likely to be the victim of violent crime.

Yes, women are also victims of crime, but a quick walk around any prison, and you'll find an overwhelming leaning towards not harming women. Any man convicted of violence against a woman generally has a hard time in prison. (I used to know quite a few people who worked in prisons.)

Remember, we are talking about violent crime here. Not sexual assaults (wow, you really wouldn't want to be sex offender in prison), or fear of crime... just violent crime, so things like being beaten up etc.
No, YOU are talking about generalized violent crime. WE are not. That was my point.
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:05 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
Would over 200 studies contradicting this statement suffice?
http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm
Yeah, you might want to actually look through that list. They don't appear to be supporting the conclusion you've drawn. Most of them don't appear to have anything to do with the rates of domestic abuse by gender.

Contrasting with some other information:
http://ncadv.org/learn-more/statistics
http://www.opdv.ny.gov/professionals...derandipv.html
https://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventi...port2010-a.pdf
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Old 20th March 2017, 05:26 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yeah, you might want to actually look through that list. They don't appear to be supporting the conclusion you've drawn. Most of them don't appear to have anything to do with the rates of domestic abuse by gender.

Contrasting with some other information:
http://ncadv.org/learn-more/statistics
http://www.opdv.ny.gov/professionals...derandipv.html
https://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventi...port2010-a.pdf
So from your very own link.

Quote:
1 in 3 women and 1 in 4 men have been victims of [some form of] physical violence by an intimate partner within their lifetime.

1 in 4 women and 1 in 7 men have been victims of severe physical violence by an intimate partner in their lifetime
How does that stack up with

Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses.
?

When your own link proves the complete falsity of your argument it's really time to stop.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:14 AM   #275
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In a victim contest everyone's a loser.
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Old 21st March 2017, 06:59 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
No.


No, YOU are talking about generalized violent crime. WE are not. That was my point.
You mentioned violent crime. I was replying to you.
Quote:
None of these are equivalent and fungible with the likelihood to get into a fist-fight or get mugged or get murdered by the other man that you pissed off.
And here you said:
Quote:
Men are seldom attacked on their way to their car when it's dark out. It happens, sure, but it happens much more to women than to men.

Men are seldom attacked and raped by strangers, or even by people they know. Sure it happens... but it happens much more often to women than to men.

Men are seldom beaten and abused by their spouses. Sure it happens, but it happens significantly less often to men than to women.
So yes you did talk about violent crime. And you have shown to be wrong.
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Old 21st March 2017, 07:10 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Emily's Cat View Post
Yeah, you might want to actually look through that list. They don't appear to be supporting the conclusion you've drawn. Most of them don't appear to have anything to do with the rates of domestic abuse by gender.
You mean such as the following from the link earlier:
Capaldi, D. M, Kim, H. K., & Shortt, J. W. (2004). Women's involvement in aggression in young adult romantic relationships. In M. Putallaz and K. L. Bierman (Eds.). Aggression, Antisocial Behavior, and Violence Among Girls (pp. 223-241). New York: Guildford Press. (A review chapter which reports on data obtained from Oregon Youth Study and Couples Study. Authors conclude that "Young women were observed to initiate physical aggression toward their partners more frequently than were the young men." And "the relative prevalence of frequent physical aggression by women and of injury and fear for men was surprisingly high.")

Or

[i] Cogan, R., & Ballinger III, B. C. (2006). Alcohol problems and the differentiation of partner, stranger, and general violence. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 21 (7), 924-935. (A sample of 457 college men and 958 college women completed the CTS. Results revealed that significantly more men than women <35.4% vs 26.0%> reported being victimized by their partners.)

Or
DeKeseredy, W. S. & Schwartz, M. D. (1998). Woman abuse on campus. Results from the Canadian National survey. Thousand Oaks, CA: Sage. (A large sample <1,835 women; 1,307 men> of Canadian college students completed the Conflict Tactics Scale. Results reveal that women report engaging in higher rates of violence than men. Specifically, 46.1% of women reported engaging in some physical violence in intimate relationship since leaving high school. With 38% employing "minor" violence and 19% employing "severe" violence.)

Or
Straus, M. A. (2001). Prevalence of violence against dating partners by male and female university students worldwide. Violence Against Women, 10, 790-811. (Dating aggression was studied at 31 universities in 16 countries worldwide. Responding to the revised Conflict Tactics Scale were 8666 students <5919 women, 2747 men>. Results reveal that overall 25% of men and 28% of women assaulted their dating partner in the past year. At 21 of the 31 universities studied a larger percentage of women than men assaulted their dating partner. In terms of severe assaults a higher rate of perpetration by women occurred in a majority (18 of the 31) of the sites.)

As a few examples. Do you want more?
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Old 21st March 2017, 08:49 AM   #278
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Another source is here:
http://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi...PH.2005.079020
Which has a pie chart:
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:50 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by baron View Post
So from your very own link.



How does that stack up with

?

When your own link proves the complete falsity of your argument it's really time to stop.
Or maybe you read more than one link and try to actually understand the whole picture maybe?

Quote:
Domestic Abuse (Coercive Controlling Violence)
% of Cases: 29%
Who Does it: 97% men
What it looks like:
-Ongoing
-One-sided
-Often severe and escalating
-Control-motivated
Context:
-Fixed imbalance of power
-Desire to dominate partner

Responsive Violence
% of Cases: 23%
Who Does it: 96% women
What it looks like:
-Occasional
-One-sided
-Not severe or escalating
Context:
-Attempt to forestall attack, defend self and others, or control the situation

Fights (Situational Couple Violence)
% of Cases: 44%
Who Does it: 56% men, 44% women
What it looks like:
-Occasional
-Often mutual
-Not severe or escalating
-No general pattern of control
Context:
-Conflict
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Old 21st March 2017, 01:52 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by wobs View Post
You mentioned violent crime. I was replying to you.


And here you said:

So yes you did talk about violent crime. And you have shown to be wrong.
I talked about specific kinds of violence. You falsely generalized it to all violent crime. You'll not that I did not talk about general violent crime.
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