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Old 17th March 2017, 07:39 AM   #41
ponderingturtle
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I am all for Bill Gate's idea on taxing the work performed by robots like we tax the work performed by employees.
We don't tax labor directly though, we tax wages. We tax profits and so on.
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Old 17th March 2017, 09:33 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
We don't tax labor directly though, we tax wages. We tax profits and so on.
I took that as qayak's point.
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Old 17th March 2017, 01:41 PM   #43
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When I first came across this story, I thought... It sounds half baked, but it's Bill Gates, so probably there's more to it and it just got garbled in the news cycle.

But then I read the interview, and I think my first impression is correct: Gates' proposal is incoherent.

And how did this idea get into his head? This is the guy who spearheaded a technological revolution that displaced tens of millions of clerical roles. Draftsmen, accountants, typing pools, mailroom staff... why this 11th hour interest in factory labourers?
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Old 17th March 2017, 05:00 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
When I first came across this story, I thought... It sounds half baked, but it's Bill Gates, so probably there's more to it and it just got garbled in the news cycle.

But then I read the interview, and I think my first impression is correct: Gates' proposal is incoherent.

And how did this idea get into his head? This is the guy who spearheaded a technological revolution that displaced tens of millions of clerical roles. Draftsmen, accountants, typing pools, mailroom staff... why this 11th hour interest in factory labourers?

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Old 20th March 2017, 09:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Guilt
I'd have thought that, too, except he's not really talking about computers. He seems to remain blinded to those job displacements and be focusing exclusively on factory automation.

As we speak, Microsoft has a self-driving car project. Obviously, this will displace millions of Americans who make their living driving... no mention of this in his 'we should tax it' proposal.
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I'd have thought that, too, except he's not really talking about computers. He seems to remain blinded to those job displacements and be focusing exclusively on factory automation.

As we speak, Microsoft has a self-driving car project. Obviously, this will displace millions of Americans who make their living driving... no mention of this in his 'we should tax it' proposal.
Do you really think he hasn't realized that his robots will be included in any tax on robots?
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Old 20th March 2017, 01:22 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Do you really think he hasn't realized that his robots will be included in any tax on robots?
The issue is if he considers his software that eliminated bureaucratic jobs to be robots or not.
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Old 20th March 2017, 03:21 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Do you really think he hasn't realized that his robots will be included in any tax on robots?
Not sure what you mean, sorry.

I suspect he does not anticipate any Microsoft products to be taxed as 'robots' if that's your question. I think he considers 'robots' to be limited to physical machines, and to not include software. Microsoft is not planning to build any self-driving cars. They are only planning to license the software.
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Old 20th March 2017, 04:42 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Not sure what you mean, sorry.

I suspect he does not anticipate any Microsoft products to be taxed as 'robots' if that's your question. I think he considers 'robots' to be limited to physical machines, and to not include software. Microsoft is not planning to build any self-driving cars. They are only planning to license the software.
Why would you assume that? Gates seems to be one of the handful of billionaires with a social conscience.
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Old 21st March 2017, 11:22 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
Why would you assume that? Gates seems to be one of the handful of billionaires with a social conscience.
I'm not 'assuming' per se, so much as reading what he said and making a reasonable interpretation. Here's the general description from his interview:
Quote:
...if you can take the labor that used to do the thing automation replaces, and financially and training-wise and fulfillment-wise have that person go off and do these other things, then you’re net ahead. But you can’t just give up that income tax, because that’s part of how you’ve been funding that level of human workers.
Keyword there being 'labour' - he's not talking about white collar job displacements at all in this interview. Here's the transcript: [QZ.com]



Many billionaires are trying to make the world a better place, whether it be Bill Gates or Betsy DeVos. It doesn't mean they're internally consistent about it, or for that matter, that they know what they're doing.
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Old 22nd March 2017, 10:50 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I'm not 'assuming' per se, so much as reading what he said and making a reasonable interpretation. Here's the general description from his interview:


Keyword there being 'labour' - he's not talking about white collar job displacements at all in this interview. Here's the transcript: [QZ.com]



Many billionaires are trying to make the world a better place, whether it be Bill Gates or Betsy DeVos. It doesn't mean they're internally consistent about it, or for that matter, that they know what they're doing.
I think you do not understand the words "labour" and "automation."
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Old 23rd March 2017, 12:41 AM   #52
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"Robot Tax"? Would that be IRS Form 1040R?

Does a Robot have dependents?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 01:06 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
If you tax robots in the same way as you tax humans, you'll be expected to give them rights appropriate to their kind sooner rather than later.
I don't see how that follows. What would stop us from taxing robots and not giving them rights?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 01:29 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I don't see how that follows. What would stop us from taxing robots and not giving them rights?
What stopped the British from taxing American colonists and not giving them rights afforded to people living in Britain, namely representation in the Parliament?

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Old 23rd March 2017, 02:31 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What stopped the British from taxing American colonists and not giving them rights afforded to people living in Britain, namely representation in the Parliament?

McHrozni
The actions of the americans themselves, not the natural enaction of some fundamental principle.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 02:38 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
What stopped the British from taxing American colonists and not giving them rights afforded to people living in Britain, namely representation in the Parliament?

McHrozni
what stopped the Americans from paying African slaves a full wage?
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Old 23rd March 2017, 02:44 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
The actions of the americans themselves, not the natural enaction of some fundamental principle.
And so would it be with robots, eventually.

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Old 23rd March 2017, 02:45 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
what stopped the Americans from paying African slaves a full wage?
Actions of Americans themselves.

This plus the colonists establish two solid ways which could open a huge can of worms. This doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, but it does mean we should make ample preparations for it to stop it from stinking up the planet.

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Old 23rd March 2017, 04:14 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
And so would it be with robots, eventually.

McHrozni
So you think that if we tax robots they will revolt and demand that we recognise their rights like those of humans but if we don't tax them they will be happy to go on working for us without pay, with working conditions that are dependent only upon what is economically feasible and has nothing to do with the desires of the robots, etc. etc.?

I don't think robots will ever be like humans in the sense of demanding rights.

I don't think that even if they were that taxation would be the issue that would cause them to go about making those demands.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 05:29 AM   #60
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Plenty of societies in history have prospered using slave labor.
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Old 23rd March 2017, 11:03 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I think you do not understand the words "labour" and "automation."
I understand what they mean, the question is what does Bill Gates mean by them in the interview.

It's not clear so i'm using my judgement to interpret. I figure if he meant all automation, including software, he would have said that, instead of 'Robots'. I don't think he's proposing taxing software or PCs &c. I think that discussion would have taken over the interview, and it would be a bigger news story: "Bill Gates proposes to tax everything Microsoft sells."

However, if you really want to be sure, there's nothing stopping you from send him an email and ask him to clarify.
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