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Old 19th March 2017, 06:56 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat
Edited by jsfisher:  Moderated content redacted.
You could respond to what Tragic Monkey said, rather than just respond with an overused trendy term.

And it's not that hard to respond either. What Tragic Monkey said is nonsense. The poor white voters almost certainly aim at improving their lot rather than making others suffer. It was a silly, uncharitable and implausible claim, a fantasy about how evil poor, white voters are.

Last edited by jsfisher; 21st March 2017 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 19th March 2017, 06:58 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then follow Napoleon's advice and don't interrupt.
Unless, of course, we think that making poor people suffer is a bad thing in itself. I can't speak for others, but while I'd like to see the Republicans lose power in 2018, I don't wish for poor people to suffer in the interim.

Sometimes, decency matters more than political gains. Crazy idea, I know.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:26 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
The poor white voters almost certainly aim at improving their lot rather than making others suffer.
Yeah you can't blame them for voting for a candidate who offered nothing but false hope and empty promises. It's all Clintons fault for not convincing them that they would end up hurting themselves by voting for a demagogue infamous for his dishonesty.
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Old 19th March 2017, 07:40 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You could respond to what Tragic Monkey said, rather than just respond with an overused trendy term.

And it's not that hard to respond either. What Tragic Monkey said is nonsense. The poor white voters almost certainly aim at improving their lot rather than making others suffer. It was a silly, uncharitable and implausible claim, a fantasy about how evil poor, white voters are.
It's hard to credit people with pure motives when they're screaming "go back to Mexico" at elementary school kids in a robotics competition, or shooting Indians in a bar.
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Old 19th March 2017, 08:26 AM   #85
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The trouble is, whites in the low income demographic voted for Trump but surveys show probably in the 40% range. The majority probably voted for Clinton.

It was the white working class/middle income voters who were the ones who voted overwhelmingly for Trump. Their complaint is, and always has been, they don't qualify for most of the programs that provide some support to people of limited means. They complain they have to pay for them through tax dollars.

I grew up listening to people complain, "The government doesn't help me, why do I have to pay taxes to help other people? I may not be in poverty but I'm certainly not rich."

It's a tough issue, there's no easy answer.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:07 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's hard to credit people with pure motives when they're screaming "go back to Mexico" at elementary school kids in a robotics competition, or shooting Indians in a bar.
It's hard to credit people with pure motives when you use the actions of some members of their group to represent all members of said group.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:12 AM   #87
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At first glance I like Trump's budget.
I'm interested to see where it leads and if anything will actually change, but I'm skeptical of Washington as a whole and don't really believe any of them actually care about citizens.

The budget makes Democrats scream the same thing ... Old people will die, kids will starve and everyone's getting deported.
Lather, rinse, repeat.

Democrats lost because of their PC Culture run amok, their blatant ignoring of every demographic of any substantial proportion instead focusing on the left handed, transgender, dairy farmer artist demographic, and the fact that Obama essentially accomplished nothing in his 8 years other than some fantastic photo ops and vacation pictures.

Couple all that with the taxing to death of the middle class and the ridiculous way the money is spent/redistributed and it's a recipe for disaster.

Good luck in 2024.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:17 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
It's hard to credit people with pure motives when you use the actions of some members of their group to represent all members of said group.
I know, I know, just because there are actual neo-Nazis in the administration is no reason to say mean things about them.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:22 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I know, I know, just because there are actual neo-Nazis in the administration is no reason to say mean things about them.
Invalid comparison. The membership of the administration is selected by its leader.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:23 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post

Democrats lost because of their PC Culture run amok, their blatant ignoring of every demographic of any substantial proportion instead focusing on the left handed, transgender, dairy farmer artist demographic, and the fact that Obama essentially accomplished nothing in his 8 years other than some fantastic photo ops and vacation pictures.

Couple all that with the taxing to death of the middle class and the ridiculous way the money is spent/redistributed and it's a recipe for disaster.

Good luck in 2024.
They lost because of a peculiar distribution of voters. The Democrats were substantially more popular as demonstrated by the substantially more votes they received.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:41 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Invalid comparison. The membership of the administration is selected by its leader.
Isn't that worse?
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:42 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Cutting Medicaid, home heating oil for the poor, public housing, will lead to a massive victory for the Democrats in 2018.
Under one version of the health care bill, those Medicaid cuts would not go into effect until 2020, safely past the 2018 midterms.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:51 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
They lost because of a peculiar distribution of voters. The Democrats were substantially more popular as demonstrated by the substantially more votes they received.
Substantial is misleading in the fact that California and New York are the only two states you can point to to back your claim.

Two states should not be able to decide what happens in the entire country regardless of the size of their populations.
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Old 19th March 2017, 09:56 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
Under one version of the health care bill, those Medicaid cuts would not go into effect until 2020, safely past the 2018 midterms.
The Freedom Caucus won't support it so that won't make it out of the house. Those members will only support a bill that slashes it before 2018.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:12 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You could respond to what Tragic Monkey said, rather than just respond with an overused trendy term.
There's nothing to respond to. That's my point. It's all just emoting. Nobody is presenting anything like an argument for why this funding is effective, and why it should be federal dollars. It's just "I like this thing, so we need to spend money on it, because we're good. And if you disagree, you're bad."

Quote:
And it's not that hard to respond either. What Tragic Monkey said is nonsense. The poor white voters almost certainly aim at improving their lot rather than making others suffer. It was a silly, uncharitable and implausible claim, a fantasy about how evil poor, white voters are.
You're absolutely correct. But it won't make any difference.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:14 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It's hard to credit people with pure motives when they're screaming "go back to Mexico" at elementary school kids in a robotics competition, or shooting Indians in a bar.
That's what Trump and congressional Republicans are doing? Who knew?

And is this really the standard you want to establish? Shall we attribute to all Democrats the worst of the leftist fringe? Because that ain't pretty either.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:18 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
And is this really the standard you want to establish? Shall we attribute to all Democrats the worst of the leftist fringe? Because that ain't pretty either.
Conservatives do it now anyway. I'm not sure what is more prevalent, the Right demonizing the left (snowflakes, etc) or the Left demonizing the Right (Nazis, etc) but it's getting a little tiring...

Nobody wants to work together, and neither side of the aisle is helping much
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:33 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Isn't that worse?
Yes.
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Old 19th March 2017, 10:38 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Conservatives do it now anyway. I'm not sure what is more prevalent, the Right demonizing the left (snowflakes, etc) or the Left demonizing the Right (Nazis, etc) but it's getting a little tiring...

Nobody wants to work together, and neither side of the aisle is helping much
Look on my generalizations, ye mighty, and despair.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:03 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Conservatives do it now anyway.
I don't. Shall I start?
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:28 AM   #101
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Demonizing/virtue signaling wont get us very far. I certainly don't want poor people to suffer. But there have to be other ways to help them then simply throwing taxpayer funds at them and creating government programs that accomplish little more than making people feel (like they're helping, that we are "good decent people," etc).

No one has directly answered the question: why do we need federal dollars for all these programs when there are other ways to accomplish the same things? Heating oil for the poor? Incentivize lower costs, address it in the State and local level, etc. Arts funding? Show it's even necessary to use tax money.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:29 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Busta Capp View Post
Substantial is misleading in the fact that California and New York are the only two states you can point to to back your claim.

Two states should not be able to decide what happens in the entire country regardless of the size of their populations.
Maybe...but that is a reason less popular ideas should be over represented, which is admitting you have the less popular ideas.

Also, this "regardless of the size of their population" is simply not a concept supported by the historical record. The electoral college was a solution to the issue of so many adults not being allowed to vote. States were supposed to be able to decide what happens in the entire country based on the size of their population (but not the size of votes cast). The 1792 election had extremely closer ratios of representatives by population and electoral college votes by population than the current system.

Our current skewed ratios are a product of capping the house of representatives at 435.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:33 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't. Shall I start?
You may not, but it IS done. Not least by the POTUS
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:41 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Demonizing/virtue signaling wont get us very far. I certainly don't want poor people to suffer. But there have to be other ways to help them then simply throwing taxpayer funds at them and creating government programs that accomplish little more than making people feel (like they're helping, that we are "good decent people," etc).
You do realize Medicaid was included in that list, right? The thing that provides the only healthcare a great many people get? Oh, but wait, we can't talk about that because for some reason it's "virtue signalling" to discuss the merits of giving medical care to poor people, the disabled, and children. We wouldn't want to sound uncool to people on the internet, would we?
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:49 AM   #105
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IMO the best way to help poor people is to fix the programs in place, not just stop funding them. Throwing out the baby with the bath water doesn't help anybody, least of which the baby. Before funding for programs that are at least on paper supposed to help poor people, the elderly, and children is cut because they aren't effective, I'd prefer an alternative that WILL work at least be defined, and even put into place.

I understand that to a good many conservatives Trump's budget is a wet dream come true, but I'm a little wary.
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Old 19th March 2017, 11:58 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
The trouble is, whites in the low income demographic voted for Trump but surveys show probably in the 40% range. The majority probably voted for Clinton.

It was the white working class/middle income voters who were the ones who voted overwhelmingly for Trump. Their complaint is, and always has been, they don't qualify for most of the programs that provide some support to people of limited means. They complain they have to pay for them through tax dollars.

I grew up listening to people complain, "The government doesn't help me, why do I have to pay taxes to help other people? I may not be in poverty but I'm certainly not rich."

It's a tough issue, there's no easy answer.
Thanks for the information. That isn't the impression I had.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:00 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
You may not
So just Tragic Monkey then. He gets special privileges.

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but it IS done. Not least by the POTUS
He's not on this message board.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:02 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Oh, but wait, we can't talk about that because for some reason it's "virtue signalling" to discuss the merits of giving medical care to poor people, the disabled, and children.
It's not virtue signalling to discuss that. But you weren't discussing it. Nowhere did you present anything resembling an argument for its merits.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:02 PM   #109
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Ignoring expansion at the moment, the law would not cut Medicaid spending, sort of. The proposal is a per capita block grant tied to medical inflation. Currently, the state receives medicaid money based on enrollment and costs. Enrollment goes up, but that is still covered in the per capita block grant. The amount the costs go up per person IS medical inflation.

It reminds me of the battle over changing SSI to chained CPI. People call it a cut, but the system calls for inflation adjusted dollars, but not the most favorable measure of inflation compared to a more accurate one.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:03 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by newyorkguy View Post
I grew up listening to people complain, "The government doesn't help me, why do I have to pay taxes to help other people? I may not be in poverty but I'm certainly not rich."

These sound like the sort of people who can't wrap their head around why insurance is gnerally a good thing.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I don't.

What's your point? Are you attempting to invalidate his observation by claiming it doesn't apply to you, specifically, and therefore is wholly invalid?
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:06 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not virtue signalling to discuss that. But you weren't discussing it. Nowhere did you present anything resembling an argument for its merits.
You're not in charge of deciding what is and isn't an acceptable post here. I was presenting an alternate hypothesis to the one suggested in the post I quoted. You may disagree all you like, but you can't order everyone to ignore me because you don't feel it satisfies your opinion of what constitutes an acceptable post. If you don't like it, just don't respond.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:08 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
So just Tragic Monkey then. He gets special privileges.
Actually, the privilege of being treated nicely is available to everyone who doesn't consistently post like a jerk, causing pointless arguments and trying to control what is said.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:21 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You're not in charge of deciding what is and isn't an acceptable post here.
Hey, I never said virtue signalling wasn't acceptable. Given its ubiquity here, it clearly is. I just pointed out that's what it was.

Quote:
You may disagree all you like, but you can't order everyone to ignore me
Good thing then that I didn't do that. Seriously, try reading my posts again. There's no orders to anyone to do anything.

Quote:
If you don't like it, just don't respond.
Why? You certainly respond to posts you don't like.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:27 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
There's nothing to respond to. That's my point. It's all just emoting. Nobody is presenting anything like an argument for why this funding is effective, and why it should be federal dollars. It's just "I like this thing, so we need to spend money on it, because we're good. And if you disagree, you're bad."



You're absolutely correct. But it won't make any difference.
At least my response involved substance, and not merely intuiting nonsense about virtue signalling. Decent conversation involves responding to what one said, rather than pretending to know why they said it.

While it's probably not a violation of forum rules, claims of "virtue signalling" are fundamentally ad hominems, attacking one's (presumed) motivations for saying something rather than what was said.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:29 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
He's not on this message board.
Apparently we can't talk about anybody who isn't on this message board. That invalidates pretty much the entire politics subforum.
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:31 PM   #116
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by twinstead View Post
Apparently we can't talk about anybody who isn't on this message board.
Oh, we absolutely can. But they just won't be listening.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:34 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
At least my response involved substance, and not merely intuiting nonsense about virtue signalling. Decent conversation involves responding to what one said, rather than pretending to know why they said it.
I've had my motives assigned to me on a regular enough basis to no longer care about this objection. Yes, in an ideal world, this is the way things would work. But it doesn't, and all my past efforts to make it that way have been in vain. I no longer try. There's no reason for me to.
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"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
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Old 19th March 2017, 12:45 PM   #118
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What are the chances this proposal is even approved - somewhere near zero? Presidential budgets rarely get passed.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
I've had my motives assigned to me on a regular enough basis to no longer care about this objection. Yes, in an ideal world, this is the way things would work. But it doesn't, and all my past efforts to make it that way have been in vain. I no longer try. There's no reason for me to.
No reason at all, if you think that intellectual integrity is not a virtue.

But if you think that others' bad behavior doesn't excuse your behavior, then you might ought to rethink this strategy.
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Old 19th March 2017, 01:38 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No reason at all, if you think that intellectual integrity is not a virtue.

But if you think that others' bad behavior doesn't excuse your behavior, then you might ought to rethink this strategy.
I won't be the only virtuous person in a fight. There is no benefit. It doesn't even encourage virtue.

Hell, just the fact that you're trying to take ME to task for this given that the entire thread has basically been an exercise in bitching about how evil Republicans are betrays the futility of any such efforts on my part.
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