Denmark = Venezuela?! - Page 4

carlitos · 19th September 2018, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I will launch a red alert for drakkars in our coasts!

Thanks for the wiki link. When I saw your comment, I was thinking more along these lines.

aleCcowaN · 19th September 2018, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by carlitos

Thanks for the wiki link. When I saw your comment, I was thinking more along these lines.

[derail]Well, they may need it, after so much rowing.[/derail]

dann · 19th September 2018, 10:19 AM

Me too! I wasn't familiar with the name drakkar in any other context, but it makes sense in this case.
The peaceful Faroese were received with open arms by the locals and their wives, but they never got to Miami because the trip across the Atlantic had taken longer (74 days) than expected. Gladys, two from left, is a Cuban friend of mine.

carlitos · 19th September 2018, 12:13 PM

Wow - that's impressive. Imagine how much further they could have gotten if their country wasn't a failed kleptocracy like Venezuela.

dann · 19th September 2018, 11:36 PM

The Faroe Islands are pretty independent of Denmark. (Hardly anybody outside of the islands understands their language.)
On their way to Cuba they had problems with an antenna and therefore had to stop in Las Palmas where the locals confused them with Finns. The Cubans called them Danes instead of Faroese.
Anyway, I don't think that the Faroese were included in Trish Regan's condemnation of the (alleged) Danish socialism ...

aleCcowaN · 20th September 2018, 03:46 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Anyway, I don't think that the Faroese were included in Trish Regan's condemnation of the (alleged) Danish socialism ...

In spite of her posh(ish) education, I don't think she ever heard of those islands or can sort by continent 8 out of 10 countries randomly chosen. But she probably had her photo taken next to the Little Mermaid and The Bear and the Strawberry Tree, as she looks the typical "cerebral" person you stumble on in the Louvre next to La Gioconda.

dann · 20th September 2018, 07:33 AM

I'm not sure that she was ever here, but the whale lovers were!

dann · 28th October 2018, 12:15 AM

An American's comparison of Denmark and Jamaica:

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I AGREE

dann · 29th October 2018, 02:15 PM

I bet Trish Regan will love this brand-new report from the White House: The Opportunity Costs of Socialism (Oct. 2018)

"The White House warns against 'Socialist' Denmark: 'It's difficult to take it seriously.'" (B.T., Oct. 29, 2018)

dann · 30th October 2018, 12:29 AM

Apparently Sweden, too, isn’t Venezuela: Pippi Longstocking and the ‘opportunity costs of socialism’ (AEIdeas, Oct. 24, 2018)

dann · 30th October 2018, 12:48 AM

Three articles about the new White House report, The Opportunity Costs of Socialism:

Maybe we should take Socialism seriously: A new White House report points to the well-known failures, but it doesn’t rebut demands for a better social safety net. (Bloomberg, Oct. 26, 2018)

The White House, definitely not scared of Socialism, issues report on why socialism is bad: Because Swedes can’t afford pickup trucks. Also because Stalin. (Vox, Oct. 23, 2018)

Quote:

The timing of the report, just ahead of the midterm elections, is not a coincidence, according to Jacob Kirkegaard, an economist working at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington DC.
“Socialism is a dirty word in the US and the goal here is to provide Republican activists some fodder they can feed their voters – particularly the younger generation, which has really hit the skids,” he told DR Nyheder.
White House report blasts Nordic socialism: ‘The Opportunity Costs of Socialism’ report claims that living standards are higher in the US than Denmark (CPH Post, Oct. 29, 2018)

dann · 30th October 2018, 01:03 AM

Two articles in Danish about the White House report:

6 claims about ‘Nordic Socialism’: Professor flunks Trump’s report (dr.dk, Oct. 30, 2018)

The White House warns against Nordic Socialism: Standards of living in the USA higher than in Denmark – Trump’s comparison of the USA and the Nordic countries isn’t true, says Danish economist (dr.dk, Oct. 28, 2018)

dann · 30th October 2018, 07:03 AM

The White House appears to have as much success with its report as Trish Regan had with hers:

The Socialists are coming! White House sounds alarm at the rise of the Left (The Guardian, Oct. 23, 2018)

Denmark dismisses White House socialism report as ”fake news” (CBS News, Oct. 29, 2018)

Another Thing Trump’s Anti-Socialist Report Gets Wrong - The White House's ridiculous anti-socialist report claims the Nordics have a lower standard of living than Americans. But when properly measured, Nordic consumption actually beats the US. (The Jacobin, Oct. 25, 2018)

Trump White House, lost in time warp, reports socialism is bad (Fast Company, Oct. 23, 2018)

ETA: An article about this theme in Common Dreams mentioned in another thread.

dann · 4th November 2018, 04:33 AM

Danish PM Challenges U.S. to a ’Competition’ over Who Has the ’Best Social Model,’ after White House Blasts Nordic Socialism (Newsweek, Oct. 30, 2018)

Danes Hit Trump Back After White House’s Economic Study Criticizing Socialism (College Media Network, Nov. 2, 2018)

Quote:

A person working at McDonald’s in the U.S. makes less than half of what a person working at McDonald’s in Denmark makes.

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I AGREE

And also in German: "Nordischer Sozialismus" – Trump-Regierung attackiert plötzlich Dänemark fürs Sozialsystem (Stern, Nov. 1, 2018)

dann · 30th November 2018, 07:24 AM

Bloody socialists!

Danmarks velstand er steget mere end USA's efter krisen (dr.dk, Nov. 28, 2018)

"Denmark's prosperity has increased more than that of the USA after the crisis"

dann · 12th January 2019, 02:02 PM

Marxists have criticized the White House report, The Opportunity Costs of Socialism:

Quote:

The dismissive attitude of the authors of the document towards Scandinavia, in any case, is very dishonest. They attempt to present living standards in the USA as superior to the Nordic countries. This is profoundly misleading. Although these countries are very far from being socialist, they are ahead of the USA in many respects, thanks to the conquests made by the labour movement in the past.

The Human Development Index, which includes things such as life expectancy, places the US at number 13 in the world, while Finland is 15. But Denmark 11, Sweden is 7, Iceland is 6, and Norway is number one. Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Denmark and Finland all have a higher life expectancy than the USA.

What is very clear is that Nordic workers have more benefits, such as healthcare, education, and housing regulation. And although the average wage in the US is high, that masks the fact that it is very unequal, with low-paid workers having very little money compared to their Nordic counterparts. In addition, US workers have to work many more hours, or have more than one job, to stay afloat.
Trump's advisers slander socialism: a reply to White House lies (Marxist.org, Dec. 4, 2018)

dann · 8th February 2019, 09:48 AM

They're at it again, but for some reason they are leaving Denmark out of the equation this time:

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I AGREE

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I AGREE

dann · 22nd March 2019, 09:02 AM

The guys who're making Americans turn to Socialism:

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dann · 7th June 2019, 09:07 AM

Denmark, Venezuela ... and even Bernie Sanders:

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dann · 29th June 2019, 04:49 AM

Washington Post video: The decades-long Republican strategy of tying Democratic proposals to ‘socialism’

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dann · 15th September 2019, 08:32 AM

Quote:

This year, Trump has repeatedly told friends and donors that running against “socialism” in a general election may not be “so easy” because of its populist draw, according to four Republicans and sources close to Trump who’ve heard him say this over the past several months.
According to a person who was in the room, Trump told donors at a recent private event that though ”a lot of people think it’ll be easy to beat [in 2020],” the “truth is, it might not be so easy.” The president, according to the source, said that “you can have someone who loves Trump, but many people love free stuff, too.” He added that if candidates tell Americans, especially young voters – that they’re going to cancel their debt, “that’s a tough one” to run against.
Trump Privately Tells Confidants That ’Socialism’ Won’t Be ’So Easy’ to Beat in 2020 (The Daily Beast, Sep. 9, 2019)

It's no wonder that even a person as ignorant as Trump is aware that "many people love free stuff." He knows how much he himself and his billionaire friends love his recent tax cuts.

The Ring of Fire: Trump Is Terrified Of Socialism And Doesn’t Think He Can Beat It (Sep. 14, 2019)

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dann · 22nd October 2019, 04:36 AM

Rand Paul warms up the old idea about Hitler and Stalin being socialists - just like Bernie Sanders. It's one of weird lies that conservatives, libertarians and centrists seem to share. He was interviewed by Trevor Noah on The Daily Show, Oct. 16, 2019:

Quote:

Rand Paul (RP):When you look at the cases of socialism over the last 100 years, whether it be Hiter or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or Castro, or currently in Venezuela, what you see is famine, what you see is a disaster of epic proportions.
(…)
Hitler was different. He was a socialist, also. His was sort of racially motivated, as well as confiscatory in nature. But now, today’s socialists say, “Oh, that’s not what we mean. That’s not what we’re for. We’re for Scandinavia.’ So we spent a lot of time in The Case against Socialism looking at Scandinavia and asking the question, “Are they socialists? Are they successful?” And one of the conclusions we came to is that, actually, Bernie’s actually too socialist to even get elected in Denmark or anywhere in Scandinavia. In fact, …
Trevor Noah (TN): And he’s American.
RP: Yeah, that’s a problem. That is a problem, too. But when he was bragging about how great socialism was in Denmark, the prime minister of Denmark came forward and said, “Well, we’re not socialists. We’re open for business. Don’t let Bernie, you know, mislead you. We’re not socialists.”
TN: OK, but, right. So then let’s talk about that, because it does feel like everybody has a different definition of what they think socialism or capitalism is. It genuinely feels like that. So, for instance, you bring up Venezuela. What’s interesting to me about Venezuela is, when people have that conversation, they always ignore the fact that Venezuela is plagued by multiple other issues. So people go, “Look at what happened to Venezuela: socialism.” Then I go, “Does the corruption not count at all?” Right? Because, as I understand socialism, if the people at the top are taking everything, is that then truly socialism, or is it now a corrupt form of socialism which is more an oligarchy? Is that not what it is?
RP: Well, socialism is when the government owns the means of production. They can either own some of them or a lot of them. The oil industry is owned by the government down there. But all the prices for all the goods and services are set as well. So what you have are massive and profound shortages. But if you want to see how devastating …
TN:Exacerbated by the corruption, though. Once the crisis happened with the oil price …
RP:But here’s the question. In a market economy like ours, people become rich because they sell something that people want. In an economy like Venezuela, what happens is, you become rich if you control the reins of government. And so power becomes more and more centralized to a few people, the possibility for corruption is much greater unless the power is defused. One of the great principles of our country is that we’ve always resisted centralization of power. We didn’t like a king and we didn’t like a powerful president, and we still resist the idea and we promote the idea of separation of powers and checks and balances.
Rand Paul - Embracing Honest Capitalism in “The Case Against Socialism” | The Daily Show

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It's obviously a lie that Bernie Sanders couldn't get elected in Denmark or in any other Scandinavian country. On the contrary, he and his ideas are very popular over here. However, Trump would never get elected in Denmark: "The president of the USA, Donald Trump, is controversial, criticized, unpopular in Denmark and on his way to the country on an official state visit" (Aug. 1, 2019), and that was before he proposed to buy Greenland!

And what the then prime minister, a conservative politician, said four years ago was:

Quote:

"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism. Therefore I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy,” Rasmussen said.
“The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security for its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish,” he added.
Danish PM in US: Denmark is not socialist (The Local, Nov. 1, 2015)

And, of course, the "expanded welfare state" is exactly what Bernie Sanders and everybody else in the USA mean when they refer to socialism. (Much the same way that liberal means something entirely different over here. Rasmussen is a member of a party that calls itself liberal!

Quote:

Venstre (Danish pronunciation: [ˈvɛnstʁɐ], literally "left"), full name Venstre, Danmarks Liberale Parti (English: Left, Denmark's Liberal Party), is a conservative-liberal, agrarian political party in Denmark.
Venstre (Denmark) (Wikipedia)

dann · 20th January 2020, 10:50 AM

I guess Americans are content with being happier than Venezuelans, but ...

Why Finland And Denmark Are Happier Than The U.S. (CNBC Make It, Jan. 9, 2020):

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Gaetan · 27th January 2020, 06:38 AM

Americans must condemn the genocide mounted by Obama, Trump, Trudeau, and others dictators elected with the money of rich to change the actual president to put their dictator in order to steal the people of Venezuela.

dann · 11th February 2020, 06:03 AM

American journalist Michael Grunwald on Twitter, Feb. 6, 2020:

Quote:

I went to an obscure hearing today in the Danish Parliament. It blew my mind, not because of the substance, but because the US Congress has totally warped my view of hearings. And I’m just dorky enough to do a thread about it.
First of all, there was a dais in the hearing room, just like any congressional hearing, except the politicians weren’t on the dais. The six experts who were testifying were on the dais. Can you imagine? As if the hearing was about them and not the politicians?
The politicians were sitting in the front row of the audience. They all stayed in their seats for the entire hearing. And do you know what they did? They listened!

Also here: Thread Reader App

ponderingturtle · 11th February 2020, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by dann

She starts out all right:
The top federal tax rate actually is 56 %, VAT is 25%, and there’s a 180% tax on cars. ”You pay more in taxes than you do on the actual car.” True! (But I don’t see the problem.)

But then it goes from all right to alt-right, i.e. she basically says what should happen now according to her ideology, even though it doesn’t actually happen. However, in her delusion, it does:

”No one wants to work. This is a real problem.”
Like in most other countries, everybody has to work – unless they’re very rich! You can survive on welfare, but you can’t lead a pleasant life.

That is the problem capitalism requires the blood sacrifice of the poor as motivation for people to work harder. We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work. To suggest any other outcome is heresy.

dann · 12th February 2020, 08:55 AM

What I found astonishing about Trish Regan's tirade was primarily the lies that she must have somehow persuaded herself correspond to reality, only they didn't: People in Denmark don't work! She can't have expected the backlash from people outside the USA (like the Danish ambassador, for instance) or from people inside the USA but with a bit of knowledge of the outside world. She must have believed that only her primary audience of manipulated suckers would watch the show and respond to it with applause as always.
It appears to be much the same way that Trump is surprised and upset that a majority of people don't believe his very obvious lies just because his preferred audience at his rallies pretend to believe his lies even when they know better.

dann · 14th February 2020, 01:53 PM

I guess we'll be hearing much more of this in the coming months:

Quote:

“I don’t know who Bernie supports over these years, I don’t know what he means by socialism. One week it’s Denmark. We’re gonna be like Denmark,” Matthews continued, mocking Sanders’ deep Brooklyn accent. “Well, what does he think of Castro? That’s a great question. What did you think of Fidelissmo?”
Chris Matthews warns of ‘executions in Central Park’ if socialism wins (NYPost, Feb. 8, 2020)

Klimax · 15th February 2020, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle

That is the problem capitalism requires the blood sacrifice of the poor as motivation for people to work harder. We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work. To suggest any other outcome is heresy.

This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus)

dann · 16th February 2020, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Klimax

This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus)

But it's the favourite argument of all conservatives and libertarians: "We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work." And if you go to the OP and to my post 5, which ponderingturtle quoted from, you can see that it't the way that Trish Regan argued - against all evidence to the contrary! She's the one who feels the need to lie about conditions in Denmark, to distort reality: People in Denmark don't work, she claims, because according to her ideology they can't possibly want to work!

Klimax · 16th February 2020, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by dann

But it's the favourite argument of all conservatives and libertarians: "We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work." And if you go to the OP and to my post 5, which ponderingturtle quoted from, you can see that it't the way that Trish Regan argued - against all evidence to the contrary! She's the one who feels the need to lie about conditions in Denmark, to distort reality: People in Denmark don't work, she claims, because according to her ideology they can't possibly want to work!

Capitalism and conservatism/libertarianism are orthogonal.

dann · 21st February 2020, 10:29 AM

Capitalism is the economic system. Conservatism and libertarianism are two political ideologies that advocate capitalism.

dann · 29th February 2020, 07:04 AM

Another comparison. Not Denmark, this time, but Norway: Norway, Democratic Socialism, versus USA, Unfettered Capitalism.
Poverty, health, life expectancy, happiness, financial security for seniors, education, wages, tax rate etc.

dudalb · 3rd March 2020, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by Klimax

This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus)

Gee a hard line Government where the State controls the economy fails miserably. Where have we seen that before?

lomiller · 6th March 2020, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Capitalism is the economic system. Conservatism and libertarianism are two political ideologies that advocate capitalism.

Weird that you would omit Liberals, since Capitalism is a Liberal invention.

Conservatives were late to the party and stuck on promoting more of a command style economy ruled over by the aristocracy. Todays pseudo-aristocracy technically qualifies as meeting the “private ownership of the means of production” that defines capitalism, but it still differs from the original capitalist model which was based around a large number of small independent producers.

Libertarianism is kind of the Liberalism’s crazy cousin that refuses to recognise any of the practical considerations required for Capitalism to work as intended. Libertarians also refuses to recognise simply doesn’t work very well and reuses to take a more pragmatic approach because the principle of capitalism is more important to them then actually having a working version of capitalism. Libertarians in the US have generally adopted Objectivism, which sees capitalism as a sort of moral justification for a system of pseudo-aristocracy, hence their close ties to conservatives.

dann · 6th March 2020, 11:41 AM

I don't disagree with you, but I avoided using the word because it has come to mean left-wing in the USA. In a Danish text I would have mentioned liberalisme along with the other two.
I'm not sure about what you call "the original capitalist model". Your "original capitalist model" was probably pre-capitalist: Joint-stock company: Europe (Wikipedia).

dann · 22nd March 2020, 04:01 AM

Originally Posted by GlennB

By chance, I just watched the Danish rebuttal on YT. Good work

How can anybody be so stupid, or so shameless, as Regan? While keeping a smug smirk on her face, I mean. Or maybe the smirk was just her reflection of how much one can be paid for talking mindless crap?

They appear to have taken Trish Regan off the air. Not for the Denmark-Venezuela thing, but for having been too zealous when defending Donald Trump's (lack of) response to the coronavirus, which became a little embarrassing when the tune suddenly changed.

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dann · 10th May 2020, 04:36 AM

Bernie Sanders storroser Danmark (BT, May 10, 2020)

Quote:

In Denmark, starting pay at McDonald’s is about $22 an hour. The workers there get six weeks of paid vacation, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. Like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave. This is what a civilized society is about.
From private testing for the rich to unrest in banlieues, coronavirus is highlighting France's stark divide (Bernie Sanders on Twitter, May 8, 2020)

Sanders’s opponents respond with comments that are no less absurd than Trish Regan’s lies two years ago. This one, for instance, will come as a surprise to Danish students:

Quote:

Also, yes, your tuition is paid for in Denmark, but you have no say in what you study. The Ministry of Education decides what you go to school for, depending on what they feel the country needs more of.
(’Stonewall Jackson’)

Ulf Nereng · 10th May 2020, 07:51 AM

Originally Posted by dann

Bernie Sanders storroser Danmark (BT, May 10, 2020)

Sanders’s opponents respond with comments that are no less absurd than Trish Regan’s lies two years ago. This one, for instance, will come as a surprise to Danish students:

Haha! That's hilarious! Where are they getting these ideas?

Mogens Winther · 10th May 2020, 07:54 AM

The big advantage with our Danish Educational system is that everyone has free access to any study. Nobody cares if your father is a director, or say, simply a hard working plumber.

However, you HAVE to qualify to get a permission.

Studies like doctor of medicine are quite crowded, so you need high grade point average during high school to get into that study.

/mw

19th September 2018, 10:18 AM	#122
aleCcowaN imperfecto del subjuntivo Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer... Posts: 9,460	Originally Posted by carlitos Thanks for the wiki link. When I saw your comment, I was thinking more along these lines. [derail]Well, they may need it, after so much rowing.[/derail]
	__________________ Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.

19th September 2018, 10:19 AM	#123
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Me too! I wasn't familiar with the name drakkar in any other context, but it makes sense in this case. The peaceful Faroese were received with open arms by the locals and their wives, but they never got to Miami because the trip across the Atlantic had taken longer (74 days) than expected. Gladys, two from left, is a Cuban friend of mine.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th September 2018, 11:36 PM	#125
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	The Faroe Islands are pretty independent of Denmark. (Hardly anybody outside of the islands understands their language.) On their way to Cuba they had problems with an antenna and therefore had to stop in Las Palmas where the locals confused them with Finns. The Cubans called them Danes instead of Faroese. Anyway, I don't think that the Faroese were included in Trish Regan's condemnation of the (alleged) Danish socialism ...
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

20th September 2018, 03:46 AM	#126
aleCcowaN imperfecto del subjuntivo Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: stranded at Buenos Aires, a city that, like NYC or Paris, has so little to offer... Posts: 9,460	Originally Posted by dann Anyway, I don't think that the Faroese were included in Trish Regan's condemnation of the (alleged) Danish socialism ... In spite of her posh(ish) education, I don't think she ever heard of those islands or can sort by continent 8 out of 10 countries randomly chosen. But she probably had her photo taken next to the Little Mermaid and The Bear and the Strawberry Tree, as she looks the typical "cerebral" person you stumble on in the Louvre next to La Gioconda.
	__________________ Horrible dipsomaniacs and other addicts, be gone and get treated, or covfefe your soul!These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out. I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.

20th September 2018, 07:33 AM	#127
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	I'm not sure that she was ever here, but the whale lovers were!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

19th September 2018, 08:19 AM	#121
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,859	Originally Posted by aleCcowaN I will launch a red alert for drakkars in our coasts! Thanks for the wiki link. When I saw your comment, I was thinking more along these lines.

19th September 2018, 12:13 PM	#124
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 22,859	Wow - that's impressive. Imagine how much further they could have gotten if their country wasn't a failed kleptocracy like Venezuela.

29th October 2018, 02:15 PM	#129
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	I bet Trish Regan will love this brand-new report from the White House: The Opportunity Costs of Socialism (Oct. 2018) "The White House warns against 'Socialist' Denmark: 'It's difficult to take it seriously.'" (B.T., Oct. 29, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 29th October 2018 at 02:27 PM.

30th October 2018, 12:29 AM	#130
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Apparently Sweden, too, isn’t Venezuela: Pippi Longstocking and the ‘opportunity costs of socialism’ (AEIdeas, Oct. 24, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

30th October 2018, 12:48 AM	#131
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Three articles about the new White House report, The Opportunity Costs of Socialism: Maybe we should take Socialism seriously: A new White House report points to the well-known failures, but it doesn’t rebut demands for a better social safety net. (Bloomberg, Oct. 26, 2018) The White House, definitely not scared of Socialism, issues report on why socialism is bad: Because Swedes can’t afford pickup trucks. Also because Stalin. (Vox, Oct. 23, 2018) Quote: The timing of the report, just ahead of the midterm elections, is not a coincidence, according to Jacob Kirkegaard, an economist working at the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington DC. “Socialism is a dirty word in the US and the goal here is to provide Republican activists some fodder they can feed their voters – particularly the younger generation, which has really hit the skids,” he told DR Nyheder. White House report blasts Nordic socialism: ‘The Opportunity Costs of Socialism’ report claims that living standards are higher in the US than Denmark (CPH Post, Oct. 29, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

30th October 2018, 01:03 AM	#132
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Two articles in Danish about the White House report: 6 claims about ‘Nordic Socialism’: Professor flunks Trump’s report (dr.dk, Oct. 30, 2018) The White House warns against Nordic Socialism: Standards of living in the USA higher than in Denmark – Trump’s comparison of the USA and the Nordic countries isn’t true, says Danish economist (dr.dk, Oct. 28, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

30th October 2018, 07:03 AM	#133
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Scandinavia = Venezuela? The White House appears to have as much success with its report as Trish Regan had with hers: The Socialists are coming! White House sounds alarm at the rise of the Left (The Guardian, Oct. 23, 2018) Denmark dismisses White House socialism report as ”fake news” (CBS News, Oct. 29, 2018) Another Thing Trump’s Anti-Socialist Report Gets Wrong - The White House's ridiculous anti-socialist report claims the Nordics have a lower standard of living than Americans. But when properly measured, Nordic consumption actually beats the US. (The Jacobin, Oct. 25, 2018) Trump White House, lost in time warp, reports socialism is bad (Fast Company, Oct. 23, 2018) ETA: An article about this theme in Common Dreams mentioned in another thread.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 30th October 2018 at 08:21 AM.

30th November 2018, 07:24 AM	#135
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Bloody socialists! Danmarks velstand er steget mere end USA's efter krisen (dr.dk, Nov. 28, 2018) "Denmark's prosperity has increased more than that of the USA after the crisis"
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

12th January 2019, 02:02 PM	#136
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Marxists have criticized the White House report, The Opportunity Costs of Socialism: Quote: The dismissive attitude of the authors of the document towards Scandinavia, in any case, is very dishonest. They attempt to present living standards in the USA as superior to the Nordic countries. This is profoundly misleading. Although these countries are very far from being socialist, they are ahead of the USA in many respects, thanks to the conquests made by the labour movement in the past. The Human Development Index, which includes things such as life expectancy, places the US at number 13 in the world, while Finland is 15. But Denmark 11, Sweden is 7, Iceland is 6, and Norway is number one. Sweden, Norway, Iceland, Denmark and Finland all have a higher life expectancy than the USA. What is very clear is that Nordic workers have more benefits, such as healthcare, education, and housing regulation. And although the average wage in the US is high, that masks the fact that it is very unequal, with low-paid workers having very little money compared to their Nordic counterparts. In addition, US workers have to work many more hours, or have more than one job, to stay afloat. Trump's advisers slander socialism: a reply to White House lies (Marxist.org, Dec. 4, 2018)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

27th January 2020, 06:38 AM	#144
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,875	Americans must condemn the genocide mounted by Obama, Trump, Trudeau, and others dictators elected with the money of rich to change the actual president to put their dictator in order to steal the people of Venezuela.
Gaetan Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 3,875

11th February 2020, 06:03 AM	#145
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	American journalist Michael Grunwald on Twitter, Feb. 6, 2020: Quote: I went to an obscure hearing today in the Danish Parliament. It blew my mind, not because of the substance, but because the US Congress has totally warped my view of hearings. And I’m just dorky enough to do a thread about it. First of all, there was a dais in the hearing room, just like any congressional hearing, except the politicians weren’t on the dais. The six experts who were testifying were on the dais. Can you imagine? As if the hearing was about them and not the politicians? The politicians were sitting in the front row of the audience. They all stayed in their seats for the entire hearing. And do you know what they did? They listened! Also here: Thread Reader App
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

11th February 2020, 10:26 AM	#146
ponderingturtle Orthogonal Vector Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 50,731	Originally Posted by dann She starts out all right: The top federal tax rate actually is 56 %, VAT is 25%, and there’s a 180% tax on cars. ”You pay more in taxes than you do on the actual car.” True! (But I don’t see the problem.) But then it goes from all right to alt-right, i.e. she basically says what should happen now according to her ideology, even though it doesn’t actually happen. However, in her delusion, it does: ”No one wants to work. This is a real problem.” Like in most other countries, everybody has to work – unless they’re very rich! You can survive on welfare, but you can’t lead a pleasant life. That is the problem capitalism requires the blood sacrifice of the poor as motivation for people to work harder. We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work. To suggest any other outcome is heresy.
	__________________ Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody "There shall be no poofing in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin

12th February 2020, 08:55 AM	#147
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	What I found astonishing about Trish Regan's tirade was primarily the lies that she must have somehow persuaded herself correspond to reality, only they didn't: People in Denmark don't work! She can't have expected the backlash from people outside the USA (like the Danish ambassador, for instance) or from people inside the USA but with a bit of knowledge of the outside world. She must have believed that only her primary audience of manipulated suckers would watch the show and respond to it with applause as always. It appears to be much the same way that Trump is surprised and upset that a majority of people don't believe his very obvious lies just because his preferred audience at his rallies pretend to believe his lies even when they know better.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

14th February 2020, 01:53 PM	#148
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	I guess we'll be hearing much more of this in the coming months: Quote: “I don’t know who Bernie supports over these years, I don’t know what he means by socialism. One week it’s Denmark. We’re gonna be like Denmark,” Matthews continued, mocking Sanders’ deep Brooklyn accent. “Well, what does he think of Castro? That’s a great question. What did you think of Fidelissmo?” Chris Matthews warns of ‘executions in Central Park’ if socialism wins (NYPost, Feb. 8, 2020)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

15th February 2020, 11:16 PM	#149
Klimax NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 13,374	Originally Posted by ponderingturtle That is the problem capitalism requires the blood sacrifice of the poor as motivation for people to work harder. We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work. To suggest any other outcome is heresy. This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus)
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

16th February 2020, 06:27 AM	#150
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Originally Posted by Klimax This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus) But it's the favourite argument of all conservatives and libertarians: "We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work." And if you go to the OP and to my post 5, which ponderingturtle quoted from, you can see that it't the way that Trish Regan argued - against all evidence to the contrary! She's the one who feels the need to lie about conditions in Denmark, to distort reality: People in Denmark don't work, she claims, because according to her ideology they can't possibly want to work!
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

16th February 2020, 02:45 PM	#151
Klimax NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ) Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9 Posts: 13,374	Originally Posted by dann But it's the favourite argument of all conservatives and libertarians: "We need the poor to die from being poor for the system to work." And if you go to the OP and to my post 5, which ponderingturtle quoted from, you can see that it't the way that Trish Regan argued - against all evidence to the contrary! She's the one who feels the need to lie about conditions in Denmark, to distort reality: People in Denmark don't work, she claims, because according to her ideology they can't possibly want to work! Capitalism and conservatism/libertarianism are orthogonal.
	__________________ ModBorg Engine: Ibalgin 400

21st February 2020, 10:29 AM	#152
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Capitalism is the economic system. Conservatism and libertarianism are two political ideologies that advocate capitalism.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

29th February 2020, 07:04 AM	#153
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Another comparison. Not Denmark, this time, but Norway: Norway, Democratic Socialism, versus USA, Unfettered Capitalism. Poverty, health, life expectancy, happiness, financial security for seniors, education, wages, tax rate etc.
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

3rd March 2020, 01:14 PM	#154
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 50,521	Originally Posted by Klimax This is nonsense. At best only in your imagination, so unless you can provide evidence don't even try to pretend your assertion has anything to do with reality. (And with states like Venezuela it can backfire as a bonus) Gee a hard line Government where the State controls the economy fails miserably. Where have we seen that before?
	__________________ Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty. Robert Heinlein.

6th March 2020, 08:48 AM	#155
lomiller Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11,479	Originally Posted by dann Capitalism is the economic system. Conservatism and libertarianism are two political ideologies that advocate capitalism. Weird that you would omit Liberals, since Capitalism is a Liberal invention. Conservatives were late to the party and stuck on promoting more of a command style economy ruled over by the aristocracy. Todays pseudo-aristocracy technically qualifies as meeting the “private ownership of the means of production” that defines capitalism, but it still differs from the original capitalist model which was based around a large number of small independent producers. Libertarianism is kind of the Liberalism’s crazy cousin that refuses to recognise any of the practical considerations required for Capitalism to work as intended. Libertarians also refuses to recognise simply doesn’t work very well and reuses to take a more pragmatic approach because the principle of capitalism is more important to them then actually having a working version of capitalism. Libertarians in the US have generally adopted Objectivism, which sees capitalism as a sort of moral justification for a system of pseudo-aristocracy, hence their close ties to conservatives.
	__________________ "Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" Last edited by lomiller; 6th March 2020 at 09:39 AM.

6th March 2020, 11:41 AM	#156
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	I don't disagree with you, but I avoided using the word because it has come to mean left-wing in the USA. In a Danish text I would have mentioned liberalisme along with the other two. I'm not sure about what you call "the original capitalist model". Your "original capitalist model" was probably pre-capitalist: Joint-stock company: Europe (Wikipedia).
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

10th May 2020, 04:36 AM	#158
dann Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 13,904	Bernie Sanders storroser Danmark (BT, May 10, 2020) Quote: In Denmark, starting pay at McDonald’s is about $22 an hour. The workers there get six weeks of paid vacation, a year’s paid maternity leave and a pension plan. Like all Danes, they enjoy universal medical insurance and paid sick leave. This is what a civilized society is about. From private testing for the rich to unrest in banlieues, coronavirus is highlighting France's stark divide (Bernie Sanders on Twitter, May 8, 2020) Sanders’s opponents respond with comments that are no less absurd than Trish Regan’s lies two years ago. This one, for instance, will come as a surprise to Danish students: Quote: Also, yes, your tuition is paid for in Denmark, but you have no say in what you study. The Ministry of Education decides what you go to school for, depending on what they feel the country needs more of. (’Stonewall Jackson’)
	__________________ /dann "Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht "The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx Last edited by dann; 10th May 2020 at 04:40 AM.

10th May 2020, 07:51 AM	#159
Ulf Nereng Muse Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: Norway Posts: 597	Originally Posted by dann Bernie Sanders storroser Danmark (BT, May 10, 2020) Sanders’s opponents respond with comments that are no less absurd than Trish Regan’s lies two years ago. This one, for instance, will come as a surprise to Danish students: Haha! That's hilarious! Where are they getting these ideas?

10th May 2020, 07:54 AM	#160
Mogens Winther Scholar Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 68	The big advantage with our Danish Educational system is that everyone has free access to any study. Nobody cares if your father is a director, or say, simply a hard working plumber. However, you HAVE to qualify to get a permission. Studies like doctor of medicine are quite crowded, so you need high grade point average during high school to get into that study. /mw
Mogens Winther Scholar Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 68	__________________ "Why, actually, are professional astrologers not jailed for fraud?" - Richard Dawkins Last edited by Mogens Winther; 10th May 2020 at 08:26 AM.