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Old 29th January 2021, 07:34 AM   #241
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Hmmm. Just got a "Reddit cannot be reached" error. Are the billionaire elite striking back? I promise I just wanted to look at the cute kitties and puppies videos!
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:05 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by ChrisBFRPKY View Post
Doge .01 to .05 in the past 24 hours
Which hedge fund gets screwed by that?

Seems like they've moved on from populist retribution to...something else.
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:06 AM   #243
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new job listing up. Salary better be incredible:

Quote:
Job Opportunity!

Robinhood seeks a Federal Affairs Manager based in Washington D.C. to focus on federal advocacy and government affairs related to legislative and regulatory matters.
@RobinhoodApp
https://twitter.com/DaybookJobs/stat...58613665300482
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:13 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I'm trying to understand how this works. Here's an analogy I'm basing off something I saw on Twitter.

Jerry has an original painting from an artist named Roy that's valued at $1,000, but who is to say what's it's really worth?

Kramer-Newman believe Roy's work is wildly over-valued. They believe Roy turns out paintings like a factory, so his pieces are certain to go down in price. Kramer-Newman rent the painting from Jerry with the intention of selling it for $950. When the painting inevitably drops in value, they'll buy it back -- maybe for as little as $100 -- and return it to Jerry.

They find a sucker named George who plops down the $950 bucks. Later that day, Roy chokes to death on Junior Mints, and all of his paintings rocket up in value. George has the best luck! Now Kramer-Newman will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to buy back the painting and return it to Jerry.

Accepting that unique works of art are not quite like fungible shares, are these cases analogous in important respects?
Yes, this is a good analogy. It could be improved, by saying that there are multiple paintings and Kramer-Newman can buy any of Roy's paintings and give it to Jerry. See part of the concept of the short squeeze is that when the short-seller gives up and has to buy the stock back, this creates more demand for the stock which drives the price up yet further (profiting those who engaged in the squeeze).
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:21 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I've seen some serious antisemitic messages connected with this thing.

I don't know whether they constitute the chicken or the egg in terms of this particular action; but there's a lot of people who apparently equate hedge fund traders losing money with "Jews" losing money, and they are quite pleased with what's going on and are saying so.



As a supporting argument to this, it should be noted that Discord has said that it banned the WSB channel due to hate speech and misinformation, not anything to do with trading or this recent activity.
This looks like a 4chan image.
They use anti-semitic and racist images and claim for EVERYTHING. Half of them are edgy teenages who don't fully understand what they're saying and half of them are real bigots.

But you'll find similar crap for almost anything they discuss.
I don't think that characterizes any side of this incident, it's just a constant gross underbelly of our country right now.

There's a congresswoman who thinks that wildfires are caused by Jewish space lasers.
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:27 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
Originally Posted by lomiller View Post
Short selling doesn't make the bankruptcy come any faster.
This is lie. It can contribute to it.
Gamestop was a profit making machine with strong quarterly profits and growth trends before the big bad shorters came along and ruined it's reputation.
I was talking about shorters in general and you know it.

You know how people deliberately misrepresenting situation or context are called, right?
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Old 29th January 2021, 08:37 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
There's a congresswoman who thinks that wildfires are caused by Jewish space lasers.
Lots of lasers have tips like that, you can't automatically assume they're Jewish.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:02 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This looks like a 4chan image.
They use anti-semitic and racist images and claim for EVERYTHING. Half of them are edgy teenages who don't fully understand what they're saying and half of them are real bigots.

But you'll find similar crap for almost anything they discuss.
I don't think that characterizes any side of this incident, it's just a constant gross underbelly of our country right now.

There's a congresswoman who thinks that wildfires are caused by Jewish space lasers.
Well, technology being what it is, that's nothing new- just a rehash of "Jewish Lightning" for the modern age.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:14 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Lots of lasers have tips like that, you can't automatically assume they're Jewish.
I've heard that makes the laser less sensitive.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:26 AM   #250
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My perspective, supported by an (alleged) industry professional:



People have been buying tulips because they think a hedge fund losing its shirt is something that's never happened before, and "breaks the system" or "exposes Wall Street". Even now they're continuing to use this kind of language to describe what they think is happening. They are sadly mistaken.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:40 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
I'm trying to understand how this works. Here's an analogy I'm basing off something I saw on Twitter.

Jerry has an original painting from an artist named Roy that's valued at $1,000, but who is to say what's it's really worth?

Kramer-Newman believe Roy's work is wildly over-valued. They believe Roy turns out paintings like a factory, so his pieces are certain to go down in price. Kramer-Newman rent the painting from Jerry with the intention of selling it for $950. When the painting inevitably drops in value, they'll buy it back -- maybe for as little as $100 -- and return it to Jerry.

They find a sucker named George who plops down the $950 bucks. Later that day, Roy chokes to death on Junior Mints, and all of his paintings rocket up in value. George has the best luck! Now Kramer-Newman will have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in order to buy back the painting and return it to Jerry.

Accepting that unique works of art are not quite like fungible shares, are these cases analogous in important respects?

I'm curious about the relationship here between the original lender and the speculators. I understand the owner is happy to rent(?) out his shares to make money, but what are the typical terms in the contract? Are the shares borrowed for a specified period of time? Can Jerry demand his painting back at any time?
Not quite.

Jerry has an original painting from an artist named Roy that's valued at $1,000, but who is to say what's it's really worth?

Kramer-Newman believe Roy's work is wildly over-valued. They believe Roy turns out paintings like a factory, so his pieces are certain to go down in price. Kramer-Newman promise to sell Elaine the painting for 950 dollars.

Elaine says, "But you don't have the painting". Kramer says not to worry, they have agreed to buy the painting from Jerry. Fred has an identical copy anyway, so Elaine gives Fred some money. Fred gives Elaine the painting. Elaine goes on her merry way having paid 950 dollars for a painting. Kramer owes Fred a painting. Fred has 950 dolllars that he owes to Kramer as soon as Kramer gives him the painting. Fred really wants the painting, but he knows there is no problem, because Kramer actually has 2,000 dollars in his account, so he agrees to wait until Kramer actually has the painting. He's in no rush. Kramer can afford the painting. Part of Fred's deal is that Kramer has to keep enough money in his account to buy the painting, no matter what the current market value of the painting is.

Bob gets wind of this deal. Bob goes to Jerry and pays Jerry 2,000 dollars for the painting. Fred sees that the value of the painting is 2,000 dollars, but that's all Kramer has in the account, and demands that Kramer produce the painting right now, because if it goes up any higher, Kramer won't be able to afford the painting. Kramer is forced to buy the painting for 2,000 dollars. Bob refuses to sell, but Janet has an identical copy and agrees to sell it for 2100 dollars. Kramer has to pay Janet 2100 dollars.

Now Janet has 2100 dollars. Kramer has -2100 dollars. Kramer has one copy of the painting. Fred has 950 dollars. Bob has a painting, and -2000 dollars. Jerry has 2000 dollars, and no longer has a painting.

Kramer gives Bob the painting. Fred gives Kramer 950 dollars, except he informs Kramer that the 950 dollars was really a loan, and he charges interest.

So, when it's all done, Jerry has 2000 dollars and no longer has a painting.
Fred has the interest he made on the loan.
Janet has 2100 dollars, and no longer has a painting.
Bob is out 2000 dollars, but he has a painting.
Kramer is out 1150 dollars plus interest. (He doesn't have a painting, but he didn't start out with one.)
Elaine has 950 dollars, and a painting.

Now Bob has a painting. He tries to sell it, but it turns out no one really liked those paintings anyway. Jerry says he never really liked the painting much, but it was in a cool frame, so he'll give Bob 100 bucks for it.

ETA: Now, having worked through the analogy, I would say the big difference between what you wrote and what is happening with Gamestop is that Roy never died. In fact, everyone knows Roy's painting is junk and not worth much. It only went up in price because Bob knew that Kramer had to give Fred a painting. Knowing that, people held out and made Kramer pay more than the painting was worth.

A regular short sale is pretty much what your analogy from twitter is like. A "short squeeze" is what happens in my analogy. People are forced to buy shares because they have agreed to provide the shares to the broker. The price goes up not because of something related to the company business, but just because all the people who thought the stock would go down have to cover the shares they promised to give back to the broker. What is going on with Gamestop is that we have the biggest short squeeze in history, made even more interesting because it was triggered by amateurs on reddit.
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:45 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
People have been buying tulips because they think a hedge fund losing its shirt is something that's never happened before, and "breaks the system" or "exposes Wall Street". Even now they're continuing to use this kind of language to describe what they think is happening. They are sadly mistaken.
The "breaks" and "exposes" part is Wall Street treating the apple cart as their and theirs alone to be the one to decide when to overturn and are now pitching a fit because someone else overturned it.

Again the poor masses are allowed to screw with the stock market for personal gain just as much as "Official Members of the Super Inclusive 'Real Serious Investors' Club."
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Old 29th January 2021, 09:50 AM   #253
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Today the freetrade app for UK users has blocked U.S. trade buying. They also blocked selling at market opening temporarily. Talk about market manipulation.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:25 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "breaks" and "exposes" part is Wall Street treating the apple cart as their and theirs alone to be the one to decide when to overturn and are now pitching a fit because someone else overturned it.

Again the poor masses are allowed to screw with the stock market for personal gain just as much as "Official Members of the Super Inclusive 'Real Serious Investors' Club."
But based on the post you quoted, the argument is that this is real serious investors vs real serious investors. The masses are not players.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:31 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "breaks" and "exposes" part is Wall Street treating the apple cart as their and theirs alone to be the one to decide when to overturn and are now pitching a fit because someone else overturned it.
Again, "Wall Street" at large, doesn't even care about this. A handful of hedge funders at best are perturbed; but aside from complaining, there's nothing they can really do about it.

The far bigger problem is all of the people who were manipulated into joining this pump as a form of "activism", and invested money they really couldn't afford, and who are about to lose everything when the pop comes.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:34 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Again, "Wall Street" at large, doesn't even care about this. A handful of hedge funders at best are perturbed; but aside from complaining, there's nothing they can really do about it.

The far bigger problem is all of the people who were manipulated into joining this pump as a form of "activism", and invested money they really couldn't afford, and who are about to lose everything when the pop comes.
Do we know if there are people who invested money they can't afford and we're manipulated?
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:46 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Again, "Wall Street" at large, doesn't even care about this. A handful of hedge funders at best are perturbed; but aside from complaining, there's nothing they can really do about it.

The far bigger problem is all of the people who were manipulated into joining this pump as a form of "activism", and invested money they really couldn't afford, and who are about to lose everything when the pop comes.
The hedge funds are just as guilty of violating the same basic rule: don't gamble with money you don't have. "But we can make huge fortunes doing that!" they object. Yes, and they can lose huge fortunes as well. Crybabies who lose a gamble merit little sympathy.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:55 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we know if there are people who invested money they can't afford and we're manipulated?
There are people self-reporting they've invested their life savings, or portions thereof, or who are obviously first-time investors expressing a hope of making a lot of gains. Yes, these people were manipulated into participating in this bubble. They got Robin Hood accounts and started loading money into them because someone on Reddit told them that doing so would "stick it to the man", but they otherwise have very little idea what they're doing.

If any regulation changes come out of this at all, they will mostly likely be against Robin Hood and services like it, for making it too easy for neophytes to fall victim to bubbles.
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:55 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Again, "Wall Street" at large, doesn't even care about this. A handful of hedge funders at best are perturbed; but aside from complaining, there's nothing they can really do about it.

The far bigger problem is all of the people who were manipulated into joining this pump as a form of "activism", and invested money they really couldn't afford, and who are about to lose everything when the pop comes.
Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Do we know if there are people who invested money they can't afford and we're manipulated?
That's my question too. It's been suggested a couple times that there's been some sort of conspiracy (on the part of GME executives, apparently) to encourage lay investors to get involved in this.

I would like to see evidence that anything like this is actually going on. Are we supposed to seriously consider that maybe a Gamestop C*O contracted a Russian bot farm to craft a stealth social media campaign aimed at amateurs on Reddit, for the purposes of boosting his stock price in twilight hours of his corporation?
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Old 29th January 2021, 10:57 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There are people self-reporting they've invested their life savings, or portions thereof, or who are obviously first-time investors expressing a hope of making a lot of gains. Yes, these people were manipulated into participating in this bubble. They got Robin Hood accounts and started loading money into them because someone on Reddit told them that doing so would "stick it to the man", but they otherwise have very little idea what they're doing.

If any regulation changes come out of this at all, they will mostly likely be against Robin Hood and services like it, for making it too easy for neophytes to fall victim to bubbles.
There are people reporting a lot of things on the Internet. For all we know, the entire r/wallstreetbets subreddit is just teenagers and bored housewives LARPing at Wall Street.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:00 AM   #261
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I'm afraid to ask certain of my acquaintances if they're aware of all this business. I fear some of them are quite impractical enough to have attempted to join in an effort to "get rich quick". Sadly, financial intelligence is not the same as book learning or street smarts, and many people can be clever in other ways but abysmal morons when it comes to money.

I'm damn glad my older relatives are too far behind the technology curve to have attempted trading on their own, or else there would be a lot of sad people in various trailer parks soon.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:00 AM   #262
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I'm pretty sure there are lots of advanced math peeps looking at how to monitor reddit and other social networks to identify GSW type activity early. It's no accident that the highest performance (nanoseconds counts) programming language conferences are funded by financial institutions.

They make money the old fashioned way. Statistics, big data, and speed of processing.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:05 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There are people self-reporting they've invested their life savings, or portions thereof, or who are obviously first-time investors expressing a hope of making a lot of gains. Yes, these people were manipulated into participating in this bubble. They got Robin Hood accounts and started loading money into them because someone on Reddit told them that doing so would "stick it to the man", but they otherwise have very little idea what they're doing.

If any regulation changes come out of this at all, they will mostly likely be against Robin Hood and services like it, for making it too easy for neophytes to fall victim to bubbles.
I'm curious to know what regulation changes that you would like to see implemented? Waiting periods for retail investors is all I can come up with. Thats going to be deeply unpopular and unfair since the big guys will still be able to trade instantly. IF RH makes it easier to trade than the likes of Etrade, TD Ameritrade ,or Fidelity, its not really by that much. The difference was marketing basically.

ETA: Oh I suppose they could restrict small investors from directly buying stocks? ETF's and mutual funds only. But I bet within weeks there will be a meme based ETF.

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Old 29th January 2021, 11:08 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Mader Levap View Post
I was talking about shorters in general and you know it.

You know how people deliberately misrepresenting situation or context are called, right?
I'm pretty sure other investors do that too, which brings us to the big question: why are some people obsessed by "short sellers"? Investors of every kind hype their own investments.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:26 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm pretty sure other investors do that too, which brings us to the big question: why are some people obsessed by "short sellers"? Investors of every kind hype their own investments.
People who root for other people's misfortune are not generally held in esteem.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:27 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm curious to know what regulation changes that you would like to see implemented?
I don't know. I can't really think of any. My instinct is that something protective should be done; but anything protective of small-time investors, who stand to lose the most in situations like this, as you say would inevitably be seen as "repressing" poor investors in favor of rich ones.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:30 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
The "breaks" and "exposes" part is Wall Street treating the apple cart as their and theirs alone to be the one to decide when to overturn and are now pitching a fit because someone else overturned it.

Again the poor masses are allowed to screw with the stock market for personal gain just as much as "Official Members of the Super Inclusive 'Real Serious Investors' Club."
I agree. However, many of those poor masses late to the party are going to get scalped. In some cases, tragically so.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:30 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Are we supposed to seriously consider that maybe a Gamestop C*O contracted a Russian bot farm to craft a stealth social media campaign aimed at amateurs on Reddit, for the purposes of boosting his stock price in twilight hours of his corporation?
No; you're supposed to seriously consider that maybe decidedly-non-amateurs on Reddit "crafted" a perfectly open social media campaign aimed at amateurs on Reddit, for the purpose of facilitating a pump-and-dump scheme.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:32 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
People who root for other people's misfortune are not generally held in esteem.
On the other hand, people do seem to esteem justice. People like it when other people's bad behavior leads to bad results. It even works if the behavior isn't bad, but merely foolish: ideally everyone learns from such events, both the participants and the observers.

Misfortune is only not "rooted for" when the subject of it doesn't seem to deserve it. When they do deserve it, well, it's satisfying in some manner.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:35 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't know. I can't really think of any. My instinct is that something protective should be done; but anything protective of small-time investors, who stand to lose the most in situations like this, as you say would inevitably be seen as "repressing" poor investors in favor of rich ones.
Nonsense. It's the turnaround time of the investments, not the total amount, that matters. Ordinary folks can (and should) be investing their pittances for the long haul, years at a time, they shouldn't be playing at day-trading. Just like ordinary folks drive cars but shouldn't race them, sing but shouldn't release albums, and play computer games but shouldn't quit their jobs to become "streamers".
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:38 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I'm pretty sure other investors do that too, which brings us to the big question: why are some people obsessed by "short sellers"? Investors of every kind hype their own investments.
Lets say you hold $10,000 worth of a company in stock. You are a normal buy and hold investor. You don't pay attention to the stock market every single second of the day. A capital investoment group opens a short position on the company then puts out a press release saying how they think its going to tank. Within a few milliseconds of that press release going out, algorithmic traders have sold millions of shares and the stock is now trading 25% lower. You just lost $2500.

Conversely, someone does the opposite and wants the stock to go up, well you just instantly made a bunch of money.

Which is more fair to the little guy?
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:39 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
People who root for other people's misfortune are not generally held in esteem.
Like people who buy gold, rooting for the misfortune of those whose retirement funds are in USDs. Or defense attorneys rooting for the misfortune of victims seeking some small measure of justice.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:40 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't know. I can't really think of any. My instinct is that something protective should be done; but anything protective of small-time investors, who stand to lose the most in situations like this, as you say would inevitably be seen as "repressing" poor investors in favor of rich ones.
Have they bothered to require all public dealing brokers to hold a fiduciary duty to the public yet? I sort of lost track.

People who get into these schemes get what they deserve. If they get wiped out, so be it. Their greed is their problem.

If the industry needs reformed to protect the little guy, maybe it needs to focus on the people who want nothing to do with this casino and end up losing jobs, etc, because pirates in neckties have no downside to risk.

Not the ones that think they are in on a scam and get burned.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:40 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
There are people reporting a lot of things on the Internet. For all we know, the entire r/wallstreetbets subreddit is just teenagers and bored housewives LARPing at Wall Street.
A lot of people say a lot of things about Hawaii.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:41 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
No; you're supposed to seriously consider that maybe decidedly-non-amateurs on Reddit "crafted" a perfectly open social media campaign aimed at amateurs on Reddit, for the purpose of facilitating a pump-and-dump scheme.
You may be on to something there.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:46 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Like people who buy gold, rooting for the misfortune of those whose retirement funds are in USDs. Or defense attorneys rooting for the misfortune of victims seeking some small measure of justice.
Well, yes. That is how psychology works. Sometimes it is stupid, but short selling is literally wanting a company to crash and for the vast majority of people that is a hateful desire no matter what abstract arguments about market efficiency exist.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:47 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Lets say you hold $10,000 worth of a company in stock. You are a normal buy and hold investor. You don't pay attention to the stock market every single second of the day. A capital investoment group opens a short position on the company then puts out a press release saying how they think its going to tank. Within a few milliseconds of that press release going out, algorithmic traders have sold millions of shares and the stock is now trading 25% lower. You just lost $2500.

Conversely, someone does the opposite and wants the stock to go up, well you just instantly made a bunch of money.
No, you haven't. You have gained or lost nothing until you sell that stock.


Quote:
Which is more fair to the little guy?
If the little guy wasn't prepared to risk $10,000 he should not have invested $10,000. He knew it was a gamble. Fairness is everybody gets treated the same, not everybody gets the outcome they desire.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:50 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Suddenly View Post
People who get into these schemes get what they deserve. If they get wiped out, so be it. Their greed is their problem.
I do not understand this schizophrenic sentiment towards this situation, where on one hand we're supposed to be cheering this bubble because it allegedly represents "Joe Six-Pack breaking Wall Street", but when it's pointed out that Joe Six-Pack is going to suffer potentially serious damage when the bubble bursts it's now a dismissive "well that's what he deserves for being getting involved".
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¿A PARANORMAL BIRD?"
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:53 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
No, you haven't. You have gained or lost nothing until you sell that stock.




If the little guy wasn't prepared to risk $10,000 he should not have invested $10,000. He knew it was a gamble. Fairness is everybody gets treated the same, not everybody gets the outcome they desire.
Very valid points.
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Old 29th January 2021, 11:55 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I do not understand this schizophrenic sentiment towards this situation, where on one hand we're supposed to be cheering this bubble because it allegedly represents "Joe Six-Pack breaking Wall Street", but when it's pointed out that Joe Six-Pack is going to suffer potentially serious damage when the bubble bursts it's now a dismissive "well that's what he deserves for being getting involved".
Joe six pack should not be validating the Pyramid scheme by participating in it in the first place.
IMO
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