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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:10 AM   #1
Tom Palven
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A Tale of Two Countries

Once Upon a Decade 1968-1978: A Tale of Two Countries

In I968 Richard Nixon was elected President and sworn in on Quaker family Bible turned to a page containing "beating swords into plowshares."

1972 Nixon visited Moscow and negotiated an Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with Russia, and was the first sitting President to visit China, establishing relations there.

Nixon then took the US off what remained of the gold/silver standard with silver coins being changed to silver-colored copper coins, and agreed that "We are all Keynesians now," opening the door to unlimited spending, "quantitative easing," and a $28 trillion debt.

During the same period the Nixon administration declared a "war on drugs" and initiated the No-Knock Laws, co-sponsored in the Senate by Democrat Ted Kennedy, which gradually led to the militarization of US police.

In 1973 Nixon ended conscription and withdrew US troops from Vietnam. (At least he did something positive.)

1976 Jimmy Carter was elected President, and on his second day in office pardoned Vietnam War draft-dodgers.

1978 The Carter administration expanded the US bureaucracy with the creation of the Departments of Energy and Education.

Meanwhile in 1978 the Chinese Communist Party picked free market advocate Deng Xiaoping to lead them out of their economic nightmare.
It worked, and for the last four decades central command economists like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich have been chanting a mantra that the Chinese economy is overheated and about to crash, while the Chinese government loans the US money.

Currently the Chinese government is trying to encourage the development of it's service industries which the US dominates.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahsu/.../#f3cf1ad1e367

It seems that Krugman, Reich, and other US mainstream economists are going to have to wait a little longer to achieve their first accurate prediction:
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Old 23rd February 2021, 08:38 AM   #2
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yep, China is a Libertarian paradise ...
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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:42 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven
central command economists like Paul Krugman and Robert Reich
I think I found your problem.

Those damn commies... not*.


*In case it wasn't clear.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 01:19 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I think I found your problem.

Those damn commies... not*.


*In case it wasn't clear.
I've visited China several times, from the days when the streets of Beijing were curb-to-curb bicycles to currently, where it's curb-to-curb Mercedes, and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 03:35 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I've visited China several times, from the days when the streets of Beijing were curb-to-curb bicycles to currently, where it's curb-to-curb Mercedes, and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
Well, there would be, wouldn't there?

As long as you're paying baksheesh to the right people, there are no environmental or other controls to stand in your way. If it fits the Xi/CCP* vision, it's fine.

*I think the two are virtually indistinguishable now - Xi has complete control and the CCP is no more than a rubber stamp.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 04:05 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Well, there would be, wouldn't there?

As long as you're paying baksheesh to the right people, there are no environmental or other controls to stand in your way. If it fits the Xi/CCP* vision, it's fine.

*I think the two are virtually indistinguishable now - Xi has complete control and the CCP is no more than a rubber stamp.
People who take baksheesh sometimes get shot over there, unlike here, where Hunter Biden got a lucrative book contract.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 05:54 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
....and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
You are a horticulturalist with no understanding of basic economics. China is still a mixed command economy and recently directed Chinese firms to not buy Australian products to punish our investigations into the origins of Covid-19.

You didn't know that as you only read the local Tampa newspapers and Ron Paul leaflets.


Command Economy / Basic Economics
"A command economy is a system where the government, rather than the free market, determines what goods should be produced, how much should be produced, and the price at which the goods are offered for sale. It also determines investments and incomes. The command economy is a key feature of any communist society"

https://www.google.com/search?ei=baU...4dUDCA0&uact=5
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Old 23rd February 2021, 06:02 PM   #8
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
People who take baksheesh sometimes get shot over there, unlike here, where Hunter Biden got a lucrative book contract.
You are very ignorant. China has 2,000,000 Uyghurs in slave labour concentration camps in Xinjiang province. That's called a command economy with slavery.

You don't actually know where China is, do you? You are supporting Ron Paul's call for southern states to regain secessionist rights to re-allow slavery.


Xinjiang internment camps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_internment_camps
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Xinjiang internment camps.jpg (39.4 KB, 4 views)
File Type: jpg Ron Paul Confederate Flag.jpg (36.9 KB, 4 views)
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Old 23rd February 2021, 07:32 PM   #9
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You are just as charming, accurate, and insightful as you always are, Matt.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 10:55 PM   #10
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US politicians are no different to any other politicians. They are all committed to BIG government with some totalitarianism thrown in for good measure. They will grab as much power for themselves as they can get with their greedy grasping hands.

I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is any different.
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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:35 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
You are just as charming, accurate, and insightful as you always are, Matt.
That's right. The People's Liberation Army (Chinese Army) has to make its own money for day to day costs. It owns agriculture, mining and transport monopolies in western Chinese provinces. Lucky they have all those Uyghur slave labour workers.

....and you think it's less bureaucratic and more business like, than the USA?

You should go there one day and have a look.


ASPI / ‘Re-education’, forced labour and surveillance beyond Xinjiang.
"The Chinese government has facilitated the mass transfer of Uyghur and other ethnic minority1 citizens from the far west region of Xinjiang to factories across the country. Under conditions that strongly suggest forced labour, Uyghurs are working in factories that are in the supply chains of at least 82 well-known global brands in the technology, clothing and automotive sectors, including Apple, BMW, Gap, Huawei, Nike, Samsung, Sony and Volkswagen."
https://www.aspi.org.au/report/uyghurs-sale
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Old 23rd February 2021, 11:45 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I find it hard to believe that the Chinese government is any different.
Well, I worked with Beyond Ltd (Mythbusters) and DFAT in 1989, to produce a five part TV documentary on the PLA called "The Great Wall of Iron". Back then, the PLA had the monopoly on fax machines in regional areas. We had to go through them.

It think it was more about controlling communications than big government....back then.

Oddly, when we got bogged down in China, Graham Ross, the gardener from Better Homes and Gardens TV show, would drive past in a minibus full of grannies. He worked out that if you take generals to banquets, you can go anywhere.
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Old 24th February 2021, 02:20 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
Well, I worked with Beyond Ltd (Mythbusters) and DFAT in 1989, to produce a five part TV documentary on the PLA called "The Great Wall of Iron". Back then, the PLA had the monopoly on fax machines in regional areas. We had to go through them.

It think it was more about controlling communications than big government....back then.

Oddly, when we got bogged down in China, Graham Ross, the gardener from Better Homes and Gardens TV show, would drive past in a minibus full of grannies. He worked out that if you take generals to banquets, you can go anywhere.
Same as it ever was.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:12 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I've visited China several times, from the days when the streets of Beijing were curb-to-curb bicycles to currently, where it's curb-to-curb Mercedes, and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
Could you define the bit I've bolded?
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:03 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post

You didn't know that as you only read the local Tampa newspapers and Ron Paul leaflets.
I wanted to throw in a comment that Tampa Bay has an excellent and award-winning journalism source in the Tampa Bay Times (formerly St. Petersburg Times). Someone that read a paper like that could expect to be fairly well informed after all. So don't blame Tampa
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Old 24th February 2021, 05:47 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
[Nixon then took the US off what remained of the gold/silver standard with silver coins being changed to silver-colored copper coins, and agreed that "We are all Keynesians now," opening the door to unlimited spending, "quantitative easing," and a $28 trillion debt.
The highlighted did not occur during Nixon's term, but during Johnson's.
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Old 24th February 2021, 11:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
I've visited China several times, from the days when the streets of Beijing were curb-to-curb bicycles to currently, where it's curb-to-curb Mercedes, and imvho there is less stifling bureaucracy and more innovative free enterprise in China right now than there is in the US.
Really? You should look up 'huji', sometimes called 'hukou'. Chinese citizens are registered according to the region of their birth, and internal migration is controlled by a government bureaucracy. The system is heavily weighted against the rural poor, some 250,000,000 (a whopping 18% of the Chinese population) of whom live as illegal immigrants in their own country, having no legal access to healthcare services, schools, housing, etcetera. Although their wages are usually higher than what they'd make in the rural regions that they have illegally fled, because of their undocumented status they are taken advantage of, earning far less than they would if they had legal status.
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Old 24th February 2021, 02:29 PM   #18
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KFC is growing faster in China than they are in the US. Therefore, China is bucketer. Or is it more bucketed. More bucketeder would work.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I wanted to throw in a comment that Tampa Bay has an excellent and award-winning journalism source in the Tampa Bay Times (formerly St. Petersburg Times). Someone that read a paper like that could expect to be fairly well informed after all. So don't blame Tampa
Fair enough. I should not knock newspapers I have never read.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:24 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
KFC is growing faster in China than they are in the US. Therefore, China is bucketer. Or is it more bucketed. More bucketeder would work.
I never really understood the "China's economy is growing faster than America's!" argument.

A jalopy going from 20mph to 30mph is accelerating a lot faster than a Tesla 3 cruising at 70mph. One should not conclude from this that the jalopy is the more performant and reliable car.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:26 PM   #21
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I bet if the Chinese government wants you to have Covid-19 vaccine, you're going to have Covid-19 vaccine or else. It won't be an option.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
I bet if the Chinese government wants you to have Covid-19 vaccine, you're going to have Covid-19 vaccine or else. It won't be an option.
Either that, or they'll make a public record of you getting the vaccine, and tell you to sit down and shut up and maybe you'll get one at some point.
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Old 24th February 2021, 03:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
A jalopy going from 20mph to 30mph is accelerating a lot faster than a Tesla 3 cruising at 70mph. One should not conclude from this that the jalopy is the more performant and reliable car.
I think you are right. China's economy is expanding faster to reach equilibrium with modern economies that can already afford Chinese production, whereas modern economies are growing steadily though population growth and incremental efficiency improvements.

I think that there may be hidden sting in that as the domestic Chinese standard of living improves, domestic consumption may absorb any increased production as China's economy grows. That may reduce the international trade imbalance. I imagine, but don't know, that the Chinese government will intentionally try keep its standard of living low to prevent this, which it can as a command economy.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:04 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I never really understood the "China's economy is growing faster than America's!" argument.

A jalopy going from 20mph to 30mph is accelerating a lot faster than a Tesla 3 cruising at 70mph. One should not conclude from this that the jalopy is the more performant and reliable car.
I just like measuring the relative success of a foreign country by the growth of US fast food chains within those countries. It seems like the same metric we would use to measure the decline of an area in the US.

Non sequitur: if US based MLMs are doing well in your country, that may be a sign that your country isn't doing well.
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Old 24th February 2021, 04:39 PM   #25
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I'm sure every society has its pyramid schemes, but my hypothesis is that widespread adoption of MLMs is a side effect of surplus wealth. Not specifically for all the adopters, most of whom don't actually have money to spare for this kind of nonsense. More generally for a society that has enough surplus wealth to support a legion of middle-class wastrels who can afford to pretend that lularoe is their golden ticket.
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Old 24th February 2021, 06:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Matthew Ellard View Post
I think you are right. China's economy is expanding faster to reach equilibrium with modern economies...
If you've been to Shanghai recently, you know that you are seeing a modern economy.

Not just a modern economy, but the largest economy in the world. thanks in large part to free marketeer Deng xiaoping and the Communist Party leadership who swallowed their pride and promoted him.
https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-l...01%20%EF%BB%BF

And "a rising tide is raising all boats" in China, today.

Last edited by Tom Palven; 24th February 2021 at 07:10 PM.
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Old 24th February 2021, 07:09 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
If you've been to Shanghai recently, you know that you are seeing a modern economy.
What are your defining characteristics of a modern economy? What did you see in Shanghai recently that you believe exhibits these characteristics?
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Old 24th February 2021, 08:01 PM   #28
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
If you've been to Shanghai recently, you know that you are seeing a modern economy.
Where Uyghur slave labour works in factories. Didn't you read the link?

Huawei, China Railway Construction Corp., China Telecommunications Corp, China Aerospace Science and Industry Corp. and Panda Electronics Group are controlled by People’s Liberation Army and you post crap against the USA's "military industrial complex"
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Old 24th February 2021, 08:09 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
thanks in large part to free marketeer Deng xiaoping
Also known as the butcher of Tiananmen Square, not to be forgotten.
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Old 24th February 2021, 08:22 PM   #30
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Edited by Darat:  Moderated content removed.


You undoubtedly saw a lot of wealth in Shanghai. But that's part of China's problem. They have the new urban rich, and huge numbers of rural poor who aren't seeing any of that growth. And the cities, where the wealth is concentrated, are also home to huge numbers of internal migrants who flock to the urban centers to escape the grinding poverty in their home regions, where they are exploited and taken advantage of because they aren't actually allowed to go where they want. How would you feel if you had to ask permission from the Federal Government to move to a city to take a job?

You know what's really sad? Many experts agree that efforts to reform the huji system have failed because the elites are afraid of losing their source of cheap, easily exploited labor.
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Last edited by Darat; 25th February 2021 at 09:17 AM.
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Old 24th February 2021, 09:31 PM   #31
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Another interesting aspect of the Chinese economy is the One Belt, One Road initiative (BRI) by which they are exporting domestic production and jobs, through offering loans for infrastructure projects with the condition (inter alia) that a significant proportion of the labour force for the project are Chinese. These BRI projects might not be as useful to the host countries as they are to China (or the people who agreed them for the host country).
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:13 AM   #32
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Richard Nixon was not sworn in during "I968" or even 1968.

Originally Posted by wikipedia
The first inauguration of Richard Nixon as the 37th President of the United States was held on Monday, January 20, 1969, at the East Portico of the United States Capitol in Washington, D.C.
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Old 25th February 2021, 09:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I never really understood the "China's economy is growing faster than America's!" argument.

A jalopy going from 20mph to 30mph is accelerating a lot faster than a Tesla 3 cruising at 70mph. One should not conclude from this that the jalopy is the more performant and reliable car.
Long-term, growth rates do matter. Ever since I was a kid looking in the almanac, Nevada was the fastest-growing state in the country. In 1960 it was still tiny, the 49th-ranked state in population, and about 1/27th the size of Michigan. Sixty years of growth later, Nevada is the 32nd biggest state in population, and about 1/3rd the size of Michigan.

That said, no tree grows to the sky. 30 years ago it was Japan's economy that was the marvel of the world. China will run into the same problem all exporting countries do; eventually their currency valuation rises to the point where the newest developing market can compete on costs, and it becomes the marvel of the world. At least this time around we seem to be likely to be spared the Chinese Management Techniques.
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:01 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What are your defining characteristics of a modern economy? What did you see in Shanghai recently that you believe exhibits these characteristics?
This what I saw:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

Does it look like a Third World country?

And I visited a McDonald's in Shanghai, just for grins.

The food was good and the service fast and friendly.
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This what I saw:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

Does it look like a Third World country?

And I visited a McDonald's in Shanghai, just for grins.

The food was good and the service fast and friendly.
“A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.”
Mahatma Ghandi

Or, to put it another way, look how well fed this North Korean man is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jo..._(cropped).jpg
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:40 PM   #36
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This what I saw:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

Does it look like a Third World country?

And I visited a McDonald's in Shanghai, just for grins.

The food was good and the service fast and friendly.
How do skyscrapers built by oligarchs indicate a modern economy? How does a pleasant shopkeeper indicate a modern economy?
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Old 25th February 2021, 03:55 PM   #37
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This what I saw:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

Does it look like a Third World country?
Gosh Tom. So you also think that Pyongyang in North Korea is the world's most modern economy because their communist party also built nice buildings?

Have you heard of Adolf Hitler and his plan for building the most modern city in Linz, using slave labour. Did you like that also?

Ryugyong Hotel / Pyongyang
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Old 25th February 2021, 04:07 PM   #38
Matthew Ellard
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
How do skyscrapers built by oligarchs indicate a modern economy?
Tom Palven has no knowledge of history at all. He is totally unaware of Stalin and Hitler's monumental architecture race. Tom Palven would be walking around Albert Speer's Nuremberg columns thinking "Gee this Hitler guy is really modern!"
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Old 25th February 2021, 04:47 PM   #39
theprestige
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I still don't know what Tom thinks defines a modern economy.
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Old 25th February 2021, 05:06 PM   #40
Foster Zygote
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Originally Posted by Tom Palven View Post
This what I saw:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q...mageBasicHover

Does it look like a Third World country?

And I visited a McDonald's in Shanghai, just for grins.

The food was good and the service fast and friendly.
So, basically, because you visited a big city and saw tall buildings and ate fast food, you determined that the whole country - government, culture, economy, everything - must be consistent with the warm, fuzzy feeling you got from that one small sample.
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