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Tags elevatorgate , rebecca watson , sexism issues , sexual harassment charges , sexual harassment issues

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Old 13th July 2011, 10:07 AM   #1721
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Here's a good blog post on the subject (via PZ Myers):


http://gretachristina.typepad.com/gr...bout-this.html

It's almost spooky. I think she's been reading this thread.
Add that to Bill Prady's advice from last year, and some of these nerds might actually start getting action!
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:12 AM   #1722
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
As women are playing the larger role in being assaulted and raped, do you feel they should face as much or more jail time than their attacker? Or perhaps they could be given some leniency in sentencing because the rape/assault could be seen as time served? Do you feel that rapists should serve any time at all?
How are these straw man arguments useful in this discussion? Is that really how you perceive Ivor's comment? He's suggesting if women go to bars they are asking to be raped? Your reaction is incredibly distorted considering what Ivor posted.
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:21 AM   #1723
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Ah well, all my good works have been for naught.

My parents, unbeknownst to me, were markedly progressive on gender issues. I didn't realize that women were meant to be treated differently until well after I went out into the real world. And upon discovering this, I always thought that the tendency to treat woman as though they couldn't take care of themselves, as though they were weak and vulnerable and generally less competent, was a vestige of sexism. So I, quite foolishly as it turns out, made an effort to demonstrate that it was okay to consider me competent and strong. I realize now that I shouldn't have been annoyed at the salesman who explained that I could get my husband to put together the desk I bought (after all, it had 4 screws to be screwed into pre-dilled holes). Rather I should have cheered his sensitivity to feminist goals whereby it is important to recognize that we don't have control over our emotional reactions, nor do we have the strength, mentally or physically, to overcome the least adversity. Sorry for screwing up the message, guys.

Linda
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:25 AM   #1724
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think he means that it's biased to use one's own imagined reaction as the meter stick for whether or not someone else is overreacting. To someone with a flat affect, most people's responses to anything seem like overreactions. At most, you can say that it would be an overreaction for you.
I repeat then, so one can never judge someone else is overreacting? Hypocritical?

If RW had started screaming and called for help, could we call that overreacting? If she pulled out a gun and said, "get away from me", could we call that overreacting? Is saying she didn't overreact any less judgmental than saying she did overreact?

Of course it is an opinion. D'uh! Everyone here is expressing how they perceive the situation. If one says RW's reaction was legit because any reaction she has is legit to her, that is also no more than opinion.

I conclude RW overreacted and was hypocritical given the use of sex to promote the Skepchick brand and the mildness of EG's request if it was as RW reported. Of course I'm going to use my view of the world here, just as everyone is. This is a judgement call as there is no empirical evidence presented such as evidence of the true risk to women in elevators compared to TraneWreck's perceived risk. (Since RW used the term, "uncomfortable", not "fearful" and uncomfortable can also mean awkward, I'm singling out TW who has posted the most about the vulnerable women on elevators.)
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:31 AM   #1725
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I'm guessing we won't be seeing TAM Italy anytime soon.

But seriously, guys need to behave themselves. In any given situation, he should always ask himself: What would The Most Interesting Man in the World do?

Last edited by NoScotsman; 13th July 2011 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:31 AM   #1726
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I conclude RW overreacted and was hypocritical given the use of sex to promote the Skepchick brand and the mildness of EG's request if it was as RW reported. Of course I'm going to use my view of the world here, just as everyone is. This is a judgement call as there is no empirical evidence presented such as evidence of the true risk to women in elevators compared to TraneWreck's perceived risk. (Since RW used the term, "uncomfortable", not "fearful" and uncomfortable can also mean awkward, I'm singling out TW who has posted the most about the vulnerable women on elevators.)
Why on Earth would I respond to this ridiculous gibberish? I've posted in detail, you ignore everything I write, and repeat these malicious, misguided rants.

You make an obnoxious post accusing me, personally, of all sorts of nasty things. I reply in detail. You ignore it, wait a couple of pages, then post the exact same obnoxious, personally-directed hogwash.

You have proven yourself to be someone incapable of having a rational discussion on this topic. It's unfortunate, I've enjoyed your writing and your opinions on a number of subjects. I am quite surprised at not just the position you've taken here, but the method by which you've chosen to argue.
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:40 AM   #1727
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Ah well, all my good works have been for naught.

My parents, unbeknownst to me, were markedly progressive on gender issues. I didn't realize that women were meant to be treated differently until well after I went out into the real world. And upon discovering this, I always thought that the tendency to treat woman as though they couldn't take care of themselves, as though they were weak and vulnerable and generally less competent, was a vestige of sexism. So I, quite foolishly as it turns out, made an effort to demonstrate that it was okay to consider me competent and strong. I realize now that I shouldn't have been annoyed at the salesman who explained that I could get my husband to put together the desk I bought (after all, it had 4 screws to be screwed into pre-dilled holes). Rather I should have cheered his sensitivity to feminist goals whereby it is important to recognize that we don't have control over our emotional reactions, nor do we have the strength, mentally or physically, to overcome the least adversity. Sorry for screwing up the message, guys.

Linda
I suppose I made the same mistake traveling alone so much and taking all those hotel elevators I didn't know I should be frightened of. Maybe I shouldn't have gloated when I gave the check for the full price of my new car to the younger salesman after the older salesman sized me up as not a likely 'real' customer. And perhaps I should have just let the car mechanics rip me off over the years because I wasn't supposed to know enough about cars to catch them in their scams. I did have to come back once with my dad to get satisfaction but I can see now that shouldn't have annoyed me. I should have been flattered the mechanics saw me as so feminine.

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Old 13th July 2011, 10:53 AM   #1728
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I repeat then, so one can never judge someone else is overreacting? Hypocritical?

If RW had started screaming and called for help, could we call that overreacting? If she pulled out a gun and said, "get away from me", could we call that overreacting? Is saying she didn't overreact any less judgmental than saying she did overreact?

Of course it is an opinion. D'uh! Everyone here is expressing how they perceive the situation. If one says RW's reaction was legit because any reaction she has is legit to her, that is also no more than opinion.

I conclude RW overreacted and was hypocritical given the use of sex to promote the Skepchick brand and the mildness of EG's request if it was as RW reported. Of course I'm going to use my view of the world here, just as everyone is. This is a judgement call as there is no empirical evidence presented such as evidence of the true risk to women in elevators compared to TraneWreck's perceived risk. (Since RW used the term, "uncomfortable", not "fearful" and uncomfortable can also mean awkward, I'm singling out TW who has posted the most about the vulnerable women on elevators.)
Okay, think what you want; but given that we are all now acutely aware of RW's tendency to overreact, and the fact that at least some women have said that they would react similarly to the same situation, does it not make sense to avoid approaching unknown women for sex when alone in an elevator, simply as a means of avoiding dealing with such an overreaction?

From a strictly game-theory-based analysis of this business, when you choose the ambush-stranger-for-sex tactic, you have essentially two choices: either ask and be turned down without having offended the woman, or ask and be turned down whilst offending the woman (the only actual data we've seen so far, in the form of bookitty's study, indicates this approach was rejected 100% of the time; thus far nobody has claimed success in achieving a sexual encounter using the elevator trick). This makes approaching unknown women for sex out of the blue a strictly dominated strategy; it is never the best choice whether the woman overreacts or not, because even when the woman doesn't overreact she will probably reject the invitation.
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:57 AM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I suppose I made the same mistake traveling alone so much and taking all those hotel elevators I didn't know I should be frightened of. Maybe I shouldn't have gloated when I gave the check for the full price of my new car to the younger salesman after the older salesman sized me up as not a likely 'real' customer. And perhaps I should have just let the car mechanics rip me off over the years because I wasn't supposed to know enough about cars to catch them in their scams. I did have to come back once with my dad to get satisfaction but I can see now that shouldn't have annoyed me. I should have been flattered the mechanics saw me as so feminine.

I don't know why I should buy, or be compelled to buy, car insurance; I've never in my life been in an accident.

I've never called 911 either; I don't think I should have to pay the tax.
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Old 13th July 2011, 10:57 AM   #1730
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
Ah well, all my good works have been for naught.

My parents, unbeknownst to me, were markedly progressive on gender issues. I didn't realize that women were meant to be treated differently until well after I went out into the real world. And upon discovering this, I always thought that the tendency to treat woman as though they couldn't take care of themselves, as though they were weak and vulnerable and generally less competent, was a vestige of sexism. So I, quite foolishly as it turns out, made an effort to demonstrate that it was okay to consider me competent and strong. I realize now that I shouldn't have been annoyed at the salesman who explained that I could get my husband to put together the desk I bought (after all, it had 4 screws to be screwed into pre-dilled holes). Rather I should have cheered his sensitivity to feminist goals whereby it is important to recognize that we don't have control over our emotional reactions, nor do we have the strength, mentally or physically, to overcome the least adversity. Sorry for screwing up the message, guys.

Linda
Nobody has control over their emotional reactions, they have control over how they proceed. They can learn to control some emotional responses through careful attention but much of it is involuntary.

If I am walking down the street and some nimrod yells an obscenity from a car, I don't have control over my reaction to that. If I'm in a good mood, I might ignore it. If the comment is particularly gross or states a threat, I may tense up. I have no choice in that. I can choose how I respond. Whether to ignore it completely or to tell said nimrod that he is a POS and that his father might be a POS but, as he is a mystery to both of us, we'll never know.

Everyone has the occasional illogical emotional response to situations that are actually benign. Two days ago, the cat leaped onto my lap while I was distracted by some weird conversation about elevators and I jumped. My cat is no threat. My reaction was immediate and illogical. I saw Jaws when I was 11 years old and avoided mud-puddles on the walk home. Humans have reactions to non-threatening circumstances.

Being strong and competent means that I can take care of myself. Taking care of myself means being aware of what is around me and avoiding circumstances in which I might be physically overpowered. Believing that I'm a tough b**** who can take on anyone who wants to harm me wold be more dangerous. In order to take care of myself, I rely on being alert. This alertness creates the low-grade warning system. Not because I think I'm weak but because it best uses what talents I have to avoid danger.

Not all women feel this way, of course. My original statement was too general and I thank you for pointing that out. It should have been an explanation and/or empathy for those women who are creeped out by these lesser threats or more casual intrusions
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:07 AM   #1731
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
How are these straw man arguments useful in this discussion? Is that really how you perceive Ivor's comment? He's suggesting if women go to bars they are asking to be raped? Your reaction is incredibly distorted considering what Ivor posted.
Quote:
ETA: If Ms. Watson does speak for themajority of women, then it seems women need to recalibrate their creep-dar becausethey are still going to bars and clubs, chatting to and dating / marrying non-creeps and then being physically assaulted and raped by them.
Women are going to bars, meeting/dating/marrying non-creeps who then magically turn into rapists, after being around these women. So yes.

Also, that was sarcasm (rhetoric that uses mockery or irony to make a point), not strawman (a sham argument meant to be dismantled). *sigh* Nobody makes a study of the bombastics anymore.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:15 AM   #1732
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Here's a good blog post on the subject (via PZ Myers):


http://gretachristina.typepad.com/gr...bout-this.html

It's almost spooky. I think she's been reading this thread.
Whoa...that's like everything I've been trying to say, except clear. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:24 AM   #1733
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Here's a good blog post on the subject (via PZ Myers):
http://gretachristina.typepad.com/gr...bout-this.html
... and she links back to the Schrodinger's Rapist post. *sigh*
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:35 AM   #1734
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
... and she links back to the Schrodinger's Rapist post. *sigh*
If that's all you got from it, it sort of proves the "lalalala...I can't heeear you!" portion.

*sigh*
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:37 AM   #1735
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Originally Posted by gnome View Post
I think I can answer this one similarly as I have elsewhere--the issue at hand is not whose feelings matter more. It is how one might best proceed when they don't know someone's specific preferences--there are tendencies worth being aware of.
That, I can agree with. There's just a whole lot of speculation here about how elevator guy should've proceded and how creepy he really was. None of us was there, so we'll have to take Rebecca's word for it.

But to equate that behaviour with anti-fermale sentiments...
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:38 AM   #1736
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
If that's all you got from it,
Nah, I get her point. It really is pretty much the same point as some commenters here have made, and unlike you I don't agree that she said it any better than, for example, TW has. Or Watson herself in her anti-Dawkins post (which I found very eloquent).

I was just disappointed. Her endorsement of that terrible misandrist piece of crap, first of all, and also bringing that up in this context (which I had not seen anyone else do so far).
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:38 AM   #1737
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Haha, Rebecca Watson is now a meme on 4chan.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:39 AM   #1738
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Haha, Rebecca Watson is now a meme on 4chan.
Link?
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:42 AM   #1739
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
I was just pointing out that there was more than one way to view the situation and that one way was not empathy and the other way lacking empathy.
Yeah, I was kinda agreeing with you. We just don't have EG's side of the story.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:46 AM   #1740
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
Link?
















You can see more, and make your own, here.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:46 AM   #1741
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
And upon discovering this, I always thought that the tendency to treat woman as though they couldn't take care of themselves, as though they were weak and vulnerable and generally less competent, was a vestige of sexism.
Well, not necessarily. I think that, in the case of gallantry, sometimes we just like to do a little something extra for the opposite sex.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:47 AM   #1742
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
Haha, Rebecca Watson is now a meme on 4chan.
Hilarious. Well, I guess it had to happen.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:48 AM   #1743
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It also appears that someone else has started it with her cleavage pick.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:49 AM   #1744
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Okay, think what you want; but given that we are all now acutely aware of RW's tendency to overreact, and the fact that at least some women have said that they would react similarly to the same situation, does it not make sense to avoid approaching unknown women for sex when alone in an elevator, simply as a means of avoiding dealing with such an overreaction?
If the control is viewed as at the discretion of the guy, you could say this. But I'm not sure how you'd get the message out to all guys which women would not appreciate this approach, nor expect the guys to refrain from offending the lowest common denominator, meaning they should never approach any woman ever. So it seems to me the response the woman has control over, tell the guy, "no thanks", is the more practical solution.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
From a strictly game-theory-based analysis of this business, when you choose the ambush-stranger-for-sex tactic, you have essentially two choices: either ask and be turned down without having offended the woman, or ask and be turned down whilst offending the woman (the only actual data we've seen so far, in the form of bookitty's study, indicates this approach was rejected 100% of the time; thus far nobody has claimed success in achieving a sexual encounter using the elevator trick). This makes approaching unknown women for sex out of the blue a strictly dominated strategy; it is never the best choice whether the woman overreacts or not, because even when the woman doesn't overreact she will probably reject the invitation.
The request in bookitty's link was a direct solicitation for sex. It's crude. While I don't think the true rejection rate with a larger more diverse sample size and in diverse situations would be 100%, I don't doubt this crude approach would not be successful very often. But that says nothing about a more polite request to talk some first and then decide.

I wonder what a poll of women who've ever had sex on the first date would reveal? I'm pretty sure there would be some demographics where the result was quite high.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:50 AM   #1745
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
It also appears that someone else has started it with her cleavage pick.
A lot of good ones there..
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:50 AM   #1746
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Originally Posted by AvalonXQ View Post
... and she links back to the Schrodinger's Rapist post. *sigh*
Well anyway she's just like the rest of us, here: she likes her straw.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:51 AM   #1747
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A couple of months ago I went through the same situation which has been described here. I was alone with a guy in a hotel elevator, a stranger I had never met before, in a new city. After a short conversation, he invited me to come to his hotel room (or he would come to mine). He didn't ask for sex. I considered it briefly and then declined.

The incident was unremarkable - anyone would find it so. I didn't get offended, nor did I blog about it.

This thread makes me aware that I seem to inhabit an entirely different world than some (hopefully not "many") women. I don't want men to see me as weak and vulnerable, but now I'm starting to understand why they sometimes try to. I didn't realize it was other women doing this to me.

Linda
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:51 AM   #1748
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't know why I should buy, or be compelled to buy, car insurance; I've never in my life been in an accident.

I've never called 911 either; I don't think I should have to pay the tax.
Sorry, I'm missing the point here. This seems like a non-sequitur to me.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:52 AM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Yeah, I was kinda agreeing with you. We just don't have EG's side of the story.
I'm curious - what could EG say now that would make his actions in the elevator seem safer to Watson then?
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:54 AM   #1750
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
A lot of good ones there..
Actually, I disagree. They're all too long or awkward; they don't have the punch of glibness you can only get from a short phrase.

I was trying to think of something clever. The best I could come up with is...

"SKEPTIC? FEMINIST?"

"PICK ONE".

Still doesn't work.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:54 AM   #1751
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Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Nobody has control over their emotional reactions, they have control over how they proceed. They can learn to control some emotional responses through careful attention but much of it is involuntary.

If I am walking down the street and some nimrod yells an obscenity from a car, I don't have control over my reaction to that. If I'm in a good mood, I might ignore it. If the comment is particularly gross or states a threat, I may tense up. I have no choice in that. I can choose how I respond. Whether to ignore it completely or to tell said nimrod that he is a POS and that his father might be a POS but, as he is a mystery to both of us, we'll never know.
Wow, I'm sorry this is your experience. It sure isn't mine. I have a lot of choice how I choose to view an interaction be it the guy in the car or some other situation. I can decide not to be bothered or to be outraged. It is not a reflexive reaction as far as I see it.


Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
Everyone has the occasional illogical emotional response to situations that are actually benign.

Being strong and competent means that I can take care of myself. Taking care of myself means being aware of what is around me and avoiding circumstances in which I might be physically overpowered. Believing that I'm a tough b**** who can take on anyone who wants to harm me wold be more dangerous. In order to take care of myself, I rely on being alert. This alertness creates the low-grade warning system. Not because I think I'm weak but because it best uses what talents I have to avoid danger.

Not all women feel this way, of course.
No disagreements here.

Originally Posted by bookitty View Post
My original statement was too general and I thank you for pointing that out. It should have been an explanation and/or empathy for those women who are creeped out by these lesser threats or more casual intrusions
"Too general" is not the issue I have with your comments. The issue I have is your use of extreme absolutes when that was not what was said.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th July 2011 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:57 AM   #1752
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Seems we have some /b/-tards in the sceptical community..
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Old 13th July 2011, 11:58 AM   #1753
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Here we go...


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Old 13th July 2011, 12:01 PM   #1754
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
A couple of months ago I went through the same situation which has been described here. I was alone with a guy in a hotel elevator, a stranger I had never met before, in a new city. After a short conversation, he invited me to come to his hotel room (or he would come to mine). He didn't ask for sex. I considered it briefly and then declined.

The incident was unremarkable - anyone would find it so. I didn't get offended, nor did I blog about it.

This thread makes me aware that I seem to inhabit an entirely different world than some (hopefully not "many") women. I don't want men to see me as weak and vulnerable, but now I'm starting to understand why they sometimes try to. I didn't realize it was other women doing this to me.

Linda
I feel the exact same way. I've been telling guys my whole life that hitting on women in an abrupt and rather impersonal fashion doesn't work. That some women might enjoy a bit of conversation beforehand. Or, at the very least, have a pleasant little moment that says "You're more than just life-support for gash." Also, that some women might find it uncomfortable or even threatening. Given the amount of women who have had some type of bad experience in the past, it's a bit rude.

But those guys just don't listen. Show them the science, point out how rarely this has actually worked for them personally, etc, etc. They still come back with "There's nothing wrong with it. Besides, one day it might work!"

I had no idea it was women giving them the go-ahead. Weird.
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:02 PM   #1755
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
If the control is viewed as at the discretion of the guy, you could say this. But I'm not sure how you'd get the message out to all guys which women would not appreciate this approach, nor expect the guys to refrain from offending the lowest common denominator, meaning they should never approach any woman ever.
Once again, the argument that not approaching strangers alone with requests for sex because some women have complained about it, would mean we'd have to never approach any woman for any reason whatsoever. You're excluding the middle.
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:03 PM   #1756
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Quote:
[...]

To the men who have been resisting and pushing back against the feminists on this issue, there's a very important thing I want to say to you:

We are trying to help you get laid.

[...]

When women explain to you -- in a calm, nuanced, proportionate way -- that there are some contexts in which your advances are less likely to be well-received than others, and you respond by sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming about ball-busting, man-hating feminists who are hell-bent on eradicating all flirting and sex and eroding your First Amendment right to proposition any woman at any time and place? When you resist hearing that hitting on a woman who's alone in an elevator in a strange city at four o'clock in the morning is not likely to be well-received, that it's likely to be perceived as a potential threat, and that you are likely to be perceived as an insensitive clod at best if you do it? When we explain ten times, a hundred times, a thousand times, that elevators are well-documented as a common place for women to get raped and that it's therefore not an appropriate place to make sexual advances -- and you still reply, "But I don't understand what the problem is with elevators"?

I have to assume that getting laid is not the point.

I have to assume that the point is something entirely different. I have to assume that you will do anything to resist hearing that women experience male advances in a very different context from the way men experience female advances...
And when one woman tells you it's creepy to ask a woman out on an elevator and another says they see no harm in it, who is right? The one with the podium?
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:04 PM   #1757
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Originally Posted by PGH View Post
And when one woman tells you it's creepy to ask a woman out on an elevator and another says they see no harm in it who is right? The one with the podium?
The one who was actually in the elevator.
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:05 PM   #1758
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Originally Posted by PGH View Post
And when one woman tells you it's creepy to ask a woman out on an elevator and another says they see no harm in it who is right? The one with the podium?
Apparently the one with the podium tells the audience that the one without the podium is a misogynist.

This is acceptable because they both have blogs.

... yeah, I don't understand it either.
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:05 PM   #1759
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Originally Posted by fls View Post
.... I don't want men to see me as weak and vulnerable, but now I'm starting to understand why they sometimes try to. I didn't realize it was other women doing this to me.

Linda
I did.
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Old 13th July 2011, 12:05 PM   #1760
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry, I'm missing the point here. This seems like a non-sequitur to me.
The argument that "I've never been sexually assaulted in a foreign country; therefore it's unreasonable for the EG scenario to have made any woman uncomfortable" seems like a non-sequitur to me as well.
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