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Old 5th April 2020, 09:58 PM   #1601
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
This is a discussion that is best argued by theologians rather than atheists.

Some argue that the "till all be fulfilled" part of Matthew 5:18 occurred when Jesus died on the cross (fulfilling the law) and that this marked the beginning of the promised "New Covenant". Again, YMMV
I got it that all was fulfilled when Jesus ascended into heaven after the three days in the tomb (Luke 24:51).

Regardless, I'd say that you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a modern Christian who believes that the Old Testament law should still apply.
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:03 PM   #1602
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If the law has been fulfilled, need it still apply? Why should it apply once it's been fulfilled?

Jesus did not abolish the law by command or decree, he simply made it unnecessary. That's how it was explained to me, at any rate. Not suggesting that it makes a great deal of sense, but there it is.
I've heard that rationale. Hell, I've probably used it. But I don't think you will hear many pastors embrace it. They would say that Jesus doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want.

But the problem always comes down to what rules one should follow and what rationale they used.

For me, it comes down to simple fact that it is a logical mess and is not believable.
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:34 PM   #1603
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I've heard that rationale. Hell, I've probably used it. But I don't think you will hear many pastors embrace it. They would say that Jesus doesn't give you carte blanche to do whatever you want.
No, of course not. Jesus also said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" indicating that Christians are still obliged to follow secular law. Of course, the Catholic doctrine of Canon Law kind of ruins this.
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:35 PM   #1604
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not a set of morals, it was a tactical command during a military action.
Rubbish! It’s a command from a supposedly moral and loving god that it’s okay to commit genocide including the killing of babies and children. All except the “lucky” young virgins that can be kept as sex slaves of course.
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
People have always killed. Today this commandment is usually translated as "thou shalt not murder".
So what? People have also always raped, murdered, kept slaves, tortured, etc. What's you point (if you have one)?

What is the killing of babies and children if not murder? What is the ordering of the killing murder of babies and children if not immoral?
Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
It's not morals. It's a narrative of a military campaign. When does a narrative of a military campaign turn into a moral diktat?
When a god that’s said to be “the source of all morals and love” instructs mere mortals that they have to kill babies and children and it's okay to do so.

Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
If you want the moral rules of Christianity, look to the Epistles, not to the Old Testament. There's plenty of questionable stuff in there for you to be going on with.
Morals can be given in instructions of actions that are “okay to do” as well as rules.

Just as well it’s merely a fictional book full of fantasy horror stories.
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:40 PM   #1605
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Just as well it’s merely a fictional book full of fantasy horror stories, written by a bunch of itinerant goat-herders.
FTFY
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:50 PM   #1606
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
FTFY
Thanks neighbor (Richmond)
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Old 5th April 2020, 10:58 PM   #1607
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
No, of course not. Jesus also said "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" indicating that Christians are still obliged to follow secular law. Of course, the Catholic doctrine of Canon Law kind of ruins this.
That doesn't remotely address the subject. There are lots of God's laws that have nothing to do with secular laws. I see women every day wearing clothes commanded by their church. Those clothes don't violate secular law.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:06 PM   #1608
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Originally Posted by ynot View Post
Rubbish! It’s a command from a supposedly moral and loving god that it’s okay to commit genocide including the killing of babies and children. All except the “lucky” except for young virgins that can be kept as sex slaves of course.
The only difference between the wars of conquest that are described in the early books of the Bible and literally every other war of conquest in history is that this one was recorded in a book that is still considered to be holy today.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
So what? People have also always raped, murdered, kept slaves, tortured, etc. What is the killing of babies and children if not murder? What is the ordering of the killing of babies and children if not immoral?
By today's standards, absolutely! At the time, it was just how war was done, and it happened literally everywhere. Take a look at the Romans some time. They believed that they had a divine mandate, too.

Originally Posted by ynot View Post
When a god that’s said to be “the source of all morals and love” instructs mere mortals that they have to kill babies and children.
Again, do you have any evidence that modern Christians derive their morality from the narrative of ancient wars of conquest?

This is what I have been referring to as a **** argument. If there were anybody still deriving their morality from these narratives, you might have an argument. As it is, it's a strawman.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:09 PM   #1609
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That doesn't remotely address the subject. There are lots of God's laws that have nothing to do with secular laws. I see women every day wearing clothes commanded by their church. Those clothes don't violate secular law.
Most of those rules about clothes aren't in the Bible. There are a few rules, like women keeping their hair covered in church, that are both in the bible and not followed by a majority of Christians. But most of what constitutes rules about how people should dress are drawn up by the churches, not derived from the Bible.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:25 PM   #1610
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Most of those rules about clothes aren't in the Bible. There are a few rules, like women keeping their hair covered in church, that are both in the bible and not followed by a majority of Christians. But most of what constitutes rules about how people should dress are drawn up by the churches, not derived from the Bible.
That wasn't the point. The same goes for eating pork and shrimp or planting two different crops side by side. At least half the laws in the Bible are irrelevant to secular laws.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:28 PM   #1611
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
That wasn't the point. The same goes for eating pork and shrimp or planting two different crops side by side. At least half the laws in the Bible are irrelevant to secular laws.
Right, but Jesus told people to follow secular laws anyway. And the laws you cite here aren't followed by a majority of modern Christians, because Jesus fulfilled those laws.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:31 PM   #1612
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
For me, it comes down to simple fact that it is a logical mess and is not believable.
Of course it is a logical mess. Whether you find it believable or not is still your choice.

Regardless, we still know that it is wrong to kill, rape, steal, have affairs with somebody else's lover etc. And if we are not psychopathic or solipsist, we know that we can't expect to be exempt from the standards we apply to others.

That much is in the bible. If you wan't to muddy it with OT quotes or unrelated POVs from NT authors then that is up to you.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:47 PM   #1613
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Right, but Jesus told people to follow secular laws anyway. And the laws you cite here aren't followed by a majority of modern Christians, because Jesus fulfilled those laws.
I'm not sure what your point is. I don't buy that the Ceasar line while useful was their justification.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:48 PM   #1614
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. I don't buy that the Ceasar line while useful was their justification.
My point is that modern Christians don't consider themselves to be bound by Old Testament law.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:49 PM   #1615
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Of course it is a logical mess. Whether you find it believable or not is still your choice.

Regardless, we still know that it is wrong to kill, rape, steal, have affairs with somebody else's lover etc. And if we are not psychopathic or solipsist, we know that we can't expect to be exempt from the standards we apply to others.

That much is in the bible. If you wan't to muddy it with OT quotes or unrelated POVs from NT authors then that is up to you.
Using quotes from the bible is muddying the waters?



Who da thunk it?
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:50 PM   #1616
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My point is that modern Christians don't consider themselves to be bound by Old Testament law.
I know that. But that doesn't stop modern Christians from opposing civil rights for gays.
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Old 5th April 2020, 11:53 PM   #1617
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
I know that. But that doesn't stop modern Christians from opposing civil rights for gays.
Ah, but the stricture against homosexuality was repeated by Paul in Romans and Corinthians, so it still counts.

Seriously. This is the argument they make. I'm inclined to put this in the other thread.
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Old 6th April 2020, 12:14 AM   #1618
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Using quotes from the bible is muddying the waters?



Who da thunk it?
If you are searching for contradictory quotes from the bible then you sure aren't trying to clarify things.
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Old 6th April 2020, 01:10 AM   #1619
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Point of order. The Bible does not dictate or command anyone today to do those things. Those were instructions given to a specific invading army at a specific time, and against a specific enemy tribe. It is not a general commandment.

This is what people mean when they say that people take certain Bible passages out of context. The books of Numbers and Judges are a (supposedly) historical narrative, telling a story about how the Israelites subdued their enemies. No-one is suggesting that the specific orders given to those military campaigns should apply in general.

And for additional context, at the time it was quite normal for an invading army to take slaves from the subdued population.

Are you unaware that religions that have the bible as part of their teachings often use quotes from the OT as well as the NT for the bases of their doctrines? This is especially true for religions such as the RCC because of where they state their authority comes from.
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Old 6th April 2020, 01:12 AM   #1620
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you think anyone today derives moral guidance from an ancient war of conquest?

Israel and Palestine, their whole (current) conflict is based on what they were promised in a story about ancient wars of conquest.
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Old 6th April 2020, 01:20 AM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You answered your own question. And entirely.

They pretty clearly don't believe in that faith if they child rape. That's called bull ********.
Wow, very dishonest and evasive answer.

You: People do good because of their faith

I: Why are there child molesting priests all over the world?

You: They are no true scotsmen.

Why don't you just admit that you can't explain why a priest who is supposed to uphold gods laws is raping children and that your "people do good because of their faith" is uttterly irrelevant.

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Old 6th April 2020, 02:37 AM   #1622
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
My point is that modern Christians don't consider themselves to be bound by Old Testament law.
Are you really saying that modern christians are not bound by the ten commandments?
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Old 6th April 2020, 02:49 AM   #1623
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Arthwolipop I think you are basing your views of “modern” Christians on your personal experiences. As I’ve recounted a few times my lot couldn’t have been further from brimstone and hell views (well apart from what they thought about the RCC) but I learnt at a very young age that the “love thy neighbour and thy enemy and leave judgement to god” was the exception.

If you look at pretty much all the active, vigorous and growing Christian sects you will see that the “brimstone and hellfire” message is what is being communicated. An example churches in Uganda pushing for the constitution and law to be changed to make homosexuality a crime punished with the death sentence, all based on their interpretation of the bible.
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Old 6th April 2020, 03:22 AM   #1624
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you think anyone today derives moral guidance from an ancient war of conquest?
The belief that a god or gods told some peoples "that land is for you. Go take it" is still a factor in international politics (and aspects of American politics).
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:27 AM   #1625
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Much like the argument for God can't be a totally passive "Well he doesn't do anything" the argument for the Bible can't be "Well nobody actually follows it."

If we just have to link this back to the base question (and this is a stretch) it about the broad need for positive arguments for something, not just negative arguments for why "Xi isn't..."

Much like God if you can't make arguments for the Bible, only excuses for it, that's saying something.
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:31 AM   #1626
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I got it that all was fulfilled when Jesus ascended into heaven after the three days in the tomb (Luke 24:51).

Regardless, I'd say that you'd be pretty hard pressed to find a modern Christian who believes that the Old Testament law should still apply.
Because the Jews are the ones who insist on posting the 10 Commandments in front of the courthouse?
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:54 AM   #1627
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Because the Jews are the ones who insist on posting the 10 Commandments in front of the courthouse?

And remember the RCC and its sister churches (orthodox etc.) have different 10 commandments to most of the Protestant versions of Christianity.
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Old 6th April 2020, 05:13 AM   #1628
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I don't think a "Okay well somebody show me were people are actually arguing we should live our lives by the 10 Commandments" is a claim even worth bothering to counter.

The giant granite monuments at court houses we keep having legal battles over aren't naturally occurring rock formations.
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Old 6th April 2020, 05:23 AM   #1629
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Do you think anyone today derives moral guidance from an ancient war of conquest?
Yes, I do.
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Old 6th April 2020, 08:09 AM   #1630
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
On the subject of child molestation. I can't see religion directly motivating the pedophile, but it seems obvious that many offenders are not "moved to great lengths" by their faith to desist.
Which is weird, because God is watching them do these vile things, and they are going to hell for them.


Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Are you unaware that religions that have the bible as part of their teachings often use quotes from the OT as well as the NT for the bases of their doctrines? This is especially true for religions such as the RCC because of where they state their authority comes from.
Donald Trump tweeted a Psalm today.
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Old 6th April 2020, 09:26 AM   #1631
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you are searching for contradictory quotes from the bible then you sure aren't trying to clarify things.
You hardly have to search for them.

And embracing some quotes and ignoring others is called "cherry picking". If you are going to choose for yourself, why do you need God or the Bible?
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Old 6th April 2020, 10:48 AM   #1632
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Which is weird, because God is watching them do these vile things, and they are going to hell for them.









Donald Trump tweeted a Psalm today.
You do have to remember they belong to a religion that states we are all sinners and allows forgiveness of all sins. So yep they may know they are doing wrong, but they know all people sin, and they know they can be forgiven. I know from personal conversations that is an excuse some abusers give, that we are all bad and all we can do is give ourselves to God's mercy.
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Old 6th April 2020, 02:01 PM   #1633
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you are searching for contradictory quotes from the bible then you sure aren't trying to clarify things.
Unless you're trying to clarify that The Bible is a stupid self-contradictory book that no intellectually honest person should take seriously.
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Old 6th April 2020, 02:48 PM   #1634
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
On the subject of child molestation. I can't see religion directly motivating the pedophile, but it seems obvious that many offenders are not "moved to great lengths" by their faith to desist.
Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
Which is weird, because God is watching them do these vile things, and they are going to hell for them.

This leads to the question of - "how strong is the faith of the child molesting priest".

It has been suggested by others that offending priests will not confess this sin, and therefore laws compelling the absolving priest, to disclose that which has been confessed, as having no benefit.

If this is true how strong is the faith of the offending priest? Would he risk eternity in Hell, or at least a very rough time in Purgatory, instead of a short stint in jail in this life?
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Old 6th April 2020, 03:47 PM   #1635
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
And embracing some quotes and ignoring others is called "cherry picking". If you are going to choose for yourself, why do you need God or the Bible?

I would also like an answer to this question, one I know I will never get.

If you have to use your judgement; be it your intellect, your upbringing, your moral compass, or reading tea leaves to go through the Bible and decide which morals to follow, which to ignore, and which ones to "interpret" then why not just use those same skills to just define and discover the morals directly?
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Old 6th April 2020, 03:51 PM   #1636
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Israel and Palestine, their whole (current) conflict is based on what they were promised in a story about ancient wars of conquest.
Okay, that's a very good point. I was rather referring to modern Christians, but yes, that is an example.
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:02 PM   #1637
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are you really saying that modern christians are not bound by the ten commandments?
Why those commandments (and which ten because there are two sets) and none of the other ones in Numbers and Leviticus and Deuteronomy? Anyone who has read those books knows that there are rather a lot of laws there. Do modern Christians, even those who claim to follow the Ten Commandments, pay attention to any of them? Apart from the gay stuff, that is?

No. Because this is another example of cherry-picking and inconsistency. I can't say why modern Christians consider these ten to be special - I suspect it's more of a cultural artifact that has persisted through centuries, but that's speculation. In my church we were told that there was really only one commandment that mattered (John 15:12).
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:19 PM   #1638
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Arthwolipop I think you are basing your views of “modern” Christians on your personal experiences.
Of course! Where else do you expect me to base my experience?

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
As I’ve recounted a few times my lot couldn’t have been further from brimstone and hell views (well apart from what they thought about the RCC) but I learnt at a very young age that the “love thy neighbour and thy enemy and leave judgement to god” was the exception.
As you base your views on your experience. The important thing is that we recognise that our experiences are different, because different churches are different, and we should therefore be extremely cautious about drawing broad generalisations.

The prevailing narrative on this forum is that religion is inherently, irredeemably evil, and the people who follow it do so because they are either themselves evil or simply stupid. I relate my experience to emphasise that Christianity is a spectrum - there is a really bad end and there's an end that maybe isn't quite that bad. But it doesn't help because religion and Christianity in particular is based on this horrible book, and even the Christians who seem nice have to be either evil or stupid to revere it.

Originally Posted by Darat View Post
If you look at pretty much all the active, vigorous and growing Christian sects you will see that the “brimstone and hellfire” message is what is being communicated. An example churches in Uganda pushing for the constitution and law to be changed to make homosexuality a crime punished with the death sentence, all based on their interpretation of the bible.
Right, absolutely, but again we should be cautious about generalising that to the entirity of Christianity. Those spreading this form of Christianity in Uganda are part of a very specific Pentecostal set of churches, and they teach a form of Christianity that a majority of Christians (who are still mostly Catholic sorry Roman Catholic) do not subscribe to.

The fact that Fred Phelps protested military funerals should not damn all Christians. Pol Pot was a pretty horrible person, but we wouldn't want to be judging all atheists by that standard, would we?
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Old 6th April 2020, 04:32 PM   #1639
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I would also like an answer to this question, one I know I will never get.

If you have to use your judgement; be it your intellect, your upbringing, your moral compass, or reading tea leaves to go through the Bible and decide which morals to follow, which to ignore, and which ones to "interpret" then why not just use those same skills to just define and discover the morals directly?

Because the faithful just need to give their god the credit for it.
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Old 6th April 2020, 05:40 PM   #1640
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I would also like an answer to this question, one I know I will never get.

If you have to use your judgement; be it your intellect, your upbringing, your moral compass, or reading tea leaves to go through the Bible and decide which morals to follow, which to ignore, and which ones to "interpret" then why not just use those same skills to just define and discover the morals directly?
What makes you think Christians don't already "interpret" the Bible according to their own judgement, intellect, upbringing, moral compass or tea leaves?

Every individual derives whatever moral teachings from the Bible that they are looking for in order to support their own biases. It's very flexible like that.
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