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Tags New Zealand incidents , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 26th February 2019, 08:57 AM   #281
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That's correct. And it's unfortunate for them, but they shouldn't get to ruin the women's category to remedy that problem.
Devil's Advocate: You're begging the question that the women's category has important social value to begin with. Why should the sporting world get to ruin a transgender's sense of self and healing journey to remedy the sporting world's binary gender problem?

---

The irony of this argument is that once you get rid of meaningfully fair competition, there's no value in being a transgender athlete anyway.

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

This is essentially what TERFs are worried about, with regards to the feminist movement.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:03 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Maybe competitive sport isn't really an area trans people can compete fairly against anyone other than themselves. And there is nothing wrong with that. No one says the concept of the paralympics is evil.
I don't think any paralympians are demanding to be treated as if they were able-bodied. Most of them seem to be interested in being treated as human beings, in being recognized for their earned achievements, and in being given fair opportunities to participate in society. Right? Someone who's leg disabled doesn't run around demanding, "pretend my legs work!". He says, "give me a ramp".

A ramp is fine. An open category for transgender athletes is fine. Pretending a dude's legs work when they actually don't is perverse.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:06 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
In the context of choosing 1% of the population to cater to.
Minorities are people, too. I'm a big fan of the 80% rule in general, but when it comes to people?

Ten percent or one percent, why shouldn't they be catered to?
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:07 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Well, individual trans athletes may be dominating here and there, but the relatively small numbers of trans people is going to limit how much this is going to occur. It's not like we are going to start seeing situations where an entire varsity team for a high school is all trans women.
I think you're underestimating the effects. High school sports may be capturing the headlines now, but it won't end there. Should the Olympics accept male to female transgenders in women's sports? Because there are more than enough transgenders to dominate the Olympics. And that will have consequences downstream. And even at the highschool level, you're not just competing against your school, but often across the state. And it doesn't take many transgender athletes to completely dominate state competitions. If the state level competitions are always dominated by transgender athletes, that can affect participation in sports even at schools with no transgender students.

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I am sympathetic to those isolated cases where cis-women feel the tables are tilted against them and all their hard work isn't being properly rewarded.
The tables are tilted against lots of people. If you're a dwarf, no amount of hard work will ever make you competitive in sports. Trans athletes don't deserve accommodations any more than countless other people who are at some disadvantage. It's unfortunate for them that their numbers don't suffice to sustain their own sports categories, but such is life.

Quote:
Though one could conceive of a college or professional team deliberately recruiting an all trans team from across the country if they felt it could provide a competitive advantage and there were enough trans athlete of high ability to recruit.
Teams will sometimes recruit for advantage even when the rules don't allow it. If the rules do allow it, it's guaranteed to happen.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:07 AM   #285
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//Slight hijack//

There actually is a weird little "I identify as disabled" subculture, people who live their lives in wheelchairs even though... their legs work or in extreme cases have even intentionally disabling themselves in order to fit in with their "identity."

I wonder A) if any of them have ever argued they should be allowed to be in the Paralympics (or similar) based on their identity and B) if not how long before someone tires?
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 26th February 2019 at 09:08 AM.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:09 AM   #286
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Huh. Looks like I was ninja'd by JoeMorgue across the board on this last exchange. Well played, JoeMorgue!
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:13 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
There's also the small problem that the Paralympics is an entirely different dynamic.

"Just put them in a 3rd category" is not going to work with people who defining themselves as belong to one of the two established categories is... well sort of the point.
Self definition means nothing compared to actual results.

If i am 6 foot and 220 of muscle, me feeling like a dainty lady isn't going to fix your jaw if I punch you.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:14 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Huh. Looks like I was ninja'd by JoeMorgue across the board on this last exchange. Well played, JoeMorgue!
This is one thing me and you seem to (mostly) be on the same wavelength on.

Like you I do completely accept that... what Transpeople are trying to get across to society is a legit thing that exists. Stepping back from the labels some form of gender disparage is a thing that people can have.

I just think that, probably through no ill will or bad intention, the concept there were trying to get across solidifying into "identifying as the other gender" took the discussion and the movement (for lack of a better term) to... a less than ideal place. And now that's become the "standard" way of looking at it and as evidenced here it doesn't really... work.

These people absolutely deserve our respect and support and love. But we aren't beholden to conceptualizing it exactly as they do in order to achieve that.
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Last edited by JoeMorgue; 26th February 2019 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:15 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Devil's Advocate: You're begging the question that the women's category has important social value to begin with.
Consumer spending on women's sports suggests that a lot of people think it does.

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Why should the sporting world get to ruin a transgender's sense of self and healing journey to remedy the sporting world's binary gender problem?
The sporting world has no obligation to anyone's sense of self or their healing journey. To the extent that sports provides benefit and has value, that benefit and value scales with participation (from both athletes and audiences). That participation is contingent upon a sense of fairness, which is why sports organizations worry about doping. If the competition is not viewed as fair, people won't want to compete, and won't want to watch.

Male to female tansgender athletes competing against female athletes undermines the fairness of the competition, and threatens both audience and athlete participation.

Quote:
The irony of this argument is that once you get rid of meaningfully fair competition, there's no value in being a transgender athlete anyway.

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

This is essentially what TERFs are worried about, with regards to the feminist movement.
Iowahawk is the best.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:16 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Minorities are people, too. I'm a big fan of the 80% rule in general, but when it comes to people?

Ten percent or one percent, why shouldn't they be catered to?
Because feudalism sucks?

Change minorities to royals in your sentence and you should see the issue.
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Old 26th February 2019, 09:46 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
Because feudalism sucks?

Change minorities to royals in your sentence and you should see the issue.
It would be pretty tragicomic if society's final solution to the LGBTAQIP problem was to install transgenders as a new royalty.
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:14 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
The problem is that trans people are a very small minority of the population, so a trans league is not really feasible on anything but the largest scales.

What do you do with a trans women high school student that wants to engage in high school sports?

1) put them into the women's league and frustrate the other women athletes that may be inherently disadvantaged

2) put them in men's league were the trans student is disadvantaged and may be deeply ashamed of being labeled as the opposite sex

3) forbid them from competing

no solution is perfect, but I'm inclined that 2 is likely the most fair option, though not a very good one.
I think 2 is obviously the best choice.

We have to keep in mind that athleticism isn't "fair" for everyone to begin with. People have disabilities, hormonal problems, stunted growth, etc. ie many things outside of their control (or possibly anyone else's). This doesn't mean we need to break the system for the rest of the people to compete so that those who aren't fit enough can compete.

Maybe transgenderism just simply falls into the same category: tough luck, you can't get everything in life
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Old 26th February 2019, 10:59 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Manger Douse View Post
Red Dwarf?
Yep.

To the current topic, what I'd advocate is some kind of handicap system. It would take some maths and fine tuning but I don't think it'd be that hard to find the right spot where trans athletes can still win on occasion but don't obliterate the competition. Something like, say the cis male record time is one minute and the cis female record time is one minute ten seconds, let all the women race together but put a (10-x) second handicap on the trans women competitors. It would still hurt some feelings but at a level I think everyone could deal with. You do have to balance 'treat me like x' with 'give everyone a fair shot.' That is, if you want to formally compete in women's sport, yeah, you'd have to be out as trans and get the special rules. It's not ideal but neither is the world.

I'll digress to say when it comes to top-tier sports I don't think there's much that's 'fair' about it anyway because it's very difficult to wrestle 'fairness' into all of the mess that goes into being able to compete in something like the Olympics anyway. It's more a matter of getting rid of advantages that look bad, like not letting athletes dope or use steroids. Nobody imagines putting caps on how much time or money or coaching or dietary assistance a training athlete has access to, for example. We'll all cheer when a guy who can only train in his spare time in his back yard wins but nobody kicks the ground and says it wasn't a fair competition when my-whole-life-is-this-sport types win. In that spirit I'll say that the amount of 'unfair' that a trans-handicap would be, compared to the amount of 'unfair' that not having any handicap would be, would not be extraordinary.

Anyway, the handicap thing could would work for intersex or other hormonal condition people who can handily blow away the rest of their category too. I would never for example want to chuck out someone like Caster Semenya from being able to compete with other women, but she walked all over them when she was in her top form. Currently the International Association of Athletics Federations deals with that wrinkle by requiring hyperandrogenous athletes to take medication to lower their testosterone levels. I don't think that's an ideal solution.

Last edited by Lithrael; 26th February 2019 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:04 AM   #294
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
his doesn't mean we need to break the system for the rest of the people to compete so that those who aren't fit enough can compete.

Maybe transgenderism just simply falls into the same category: tough luck, you can't get everything in life
Maybe transgenderism does fall into the same category. However, our society is currently struggling to implement a paradigm in which transgenderism *is not* a disability, and in which transgenders *are not* unfit.

So it really does come down to a question of social justice. Is it more socially just to uphold an MtF transgender's desire to function as a woman in competitive sport? Or is it more socially just to bar her from that role in society?
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe transgenderism does fall into the same category. However, our society is currently struggling to implement a paradigm in which transgenderism *is not* a disability, and in which transgenders *are not* unfit.

So it really does come down to a question of social justice. Is it more socially just to uphold an MtF transgender's desire to function as a woman in competitive sport? Or is it more socially just to bar her from that role in society?
Its more socially just to bar them from that role in society.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:13 AM   #296
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Alternately the trans women could all agree to be like Dash in the Incredibles, enjoy being in the competition and show off a bit but graciously not win the holy **** out of it because they understand the concept of not ruining everyone else's fun.

It could just be informally agreed that winning too much, too easily is gauche. Because it's the trans woman superpower. And cis women don't have superpowers. And you're just as much a woman as a cis woman. So there you go.

Last edited by Lithrael; 26th February 2019 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:31 AM   #297
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I think Caitlyn Jenner needs to speak out on this issue.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:40 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think Caitlyn Jenner needs to speak out on this issue.
I think Caitlyn Jenner is a complete fraud who should stop pretending to be a woman.

There, I said what most of you are thinking.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:44 AM   #299
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I think Strawberry's opinion is worth 1 toot from my butt.

There, I said what I was thinking.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:50 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
I think Strawberry's opinion is worth 1 toot from my butt.

There, I said what I was thinking.
Come off it, Jenner has fathered six children by three different women and became an Olympic gold medallist in a men's event. He's no more a woman than Mohammad Ali was a woman.
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Old 26th February 2019, 11:53 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Come off it, Jenner has fathered six children by three different women and became an Olympic gold medallist in a men's event. He's no more a woman than Mohammad Ali was a woman.
Maybe you should stick with what you are thinking.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:00 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe transgenderism does fall into the same category. However, our society is currently struggling to implement a paradigm in which transgenderism *is not* a disability, and in which transgenders *are not* unfit.

So it really does come down to a question of social justice. Is it more socially just to uphold an MtF transgender's desire to function as a woman in competitive sport? Or is it more socially just to bar her from that role in society?
Huh? Being a woman is not a disability, and yet many sports have separate categories for women. There simply is no need to view trans women as 'less than' nor as 'disabled' to exclude them from some sporting categories. There does not need to be a stigma attached, especially as some 'sports' that are gender separated are pretty arbitrary in that regard (chess).

Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Alternately the trans women could all agree to be like Dash in the Incredibles, enjoy being in the competition and show off a bit but graciously not win the holy **** out of it because they understand the concept of not ruining everyone else's fun.

It could just be informally agreed that winning too much, too easily is gauche. Because it's the trans woman superpower. And cis women don't have superpowers. And you're just as much a woman as a cis woman. So there you go.
That is not actually a rare view inside the trans community. Honestly though, looking at this only through the lens of 'trans' limits the discussion in sort of a weird way that detracts from the larger conversation to be had about fairness, the place of sport in society, and what limitations should be placed.

Would a cis woman who produces muscles like cis men do also have an unfair advantage? A man who has a condition that lets him perform well beyond other humans? Now those might get the 'natural' handwave, but say that man gets cancer and then stops producing the growth/repair/maintain hormones that he was naturally producing, but could replace them artificially. Would it be fair to let him return those levels to their 'natural' place, even though another competitor doing the exact same thing would be disqualified for doping?

Overall I think the competition aspect of sports, especially for high school kids, is gargantuanly over-emphasized. It should be nowhere near as important as our society has made it, but that's somewhat off topic.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:03 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Maybe you should stick with what you are thinking.
Maybe I should because the rest of you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole of lady brains and men trapped in women's bodies.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, end of.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:06 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I think 2 is obviously the best choice.

We have to keep in mind that athleticism isn't "fair" for everyone to begin with. People have disabilities, hormonal problems, stunted growth, etc. ie many things outside of their control (or possibly anyone else's). This doesn't mean we need to break the system for the rest of the people to compete so that those who aren't fit enough can compete.

Maybe transgenderism just simply falls into the same category: tough luck, you can't get everything in life
I think they missed an obvious 4th option

Just have another category

Men, women, trans
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:15 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Maybe I should because the rest of you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole of lady brains and men trapped in women's bodies.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, end of.
I'm pretty sure defining something as a mental illness is only the beginning of the discussion.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:20 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
I think they missed an obvious 4th option

Just have another category

Men, women, trans
Trans people account for less than 1% of the population. I don't think the population is large enough to constitute a separate league, at least not at the local school level.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:28 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Trans people account for less than 1% of the population. I don't think the population is large enough to constitute a separate league, at least not at the local school level.
Well I think if you actually want to make it fair to all concerned then it is either that or facing the fact that not being able to participate in competitive sports is another thing you have to add as a consequence of transitioning to female.

It sucks. I know, but loads of things in life suck.

People born with severe disabilities can't compete either.

You got dealt a **** life deck, get over yourself.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:30 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by cullennz View Post
Who the hell agrees to transition a kid who isn't at the very least 18?
Nasty conundrum on that.

From a physical - and presumably psychological - perspective, transitioning is much more effective if started before puberty.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Right now within sports we have the two categories of Men's and Women's.
Easy fix - have a "non-binary gender" third grade that allow MtF and FtM trans to compete against each other, along with those of indeterminate/intersex gender, like Caster Semenya and the other two medal winners at the Rio 800m for women.

I don't see how that's unfair to any of them.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:36 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Huh? Being a woman is not a disability, and yet many sports have separate categories for women. There simply is no need to view trans women as 'less than' nor as 'disabled' to exclude them from some sporting categories. There does not need to be a stigma attached, especially as some 'sports' that are gender separated are pretty arbitrary in that regard (chess).
Nobody said anything about attaching a stigma.

Being a woman isn't a disability. But maybe suffering from gender dysphoria is a disability.

If you're cismale, and an athlete, and competing in the men's division causes you psychological suffering, is that a disability? If the only thing that mitigates your suffering is being allowed to compete as a woman in the women's division, is that a disability?

And if that's the only way to treat your condition, does it really make sense to deny you that option? Does it really help you in any way to have a non-cisgendered division for you to compete in?
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:48 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Nasty conundrum on that.

From a physical - and presumably psychological - perspective, transitioning is much more effective if started before puberty.
That part there is what I'm not comfortable with. I don't feel like this has been at all adequately established. Unfortunately, given the intrinsic difficulties of the problem, it's basically impossible to do the kind of study that would best establish this in an ethical manner.
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Old 26th February 2019, 12:54 PM   #311
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Some quick thoughts:

1. In my opinion, no-one should have to change how they were born (including drugging themselves) to compete - if you're born appearing female and find out that genetically you're XXY or XY with androgen insensitivity and have an advantage, so be it. Just like if you're born taller, stronger, with 6 fingers, whatever. I read that the English (?) rowing team a few years ago recruited women even with no rowing experience who were athletic and had a good ratio of arm to body length, for purposes of rowing, i.e. who had an inborn advantage in that sport. Unfair, or just, picking people born with an advantage?

2. Medical procedures, devices, drugs should be allowed if no serious competitive advantage. So someone who has artificial legs that may allow them to be significantly faster (like Pistorius, who was known for that before manslaughter conviction), that may be an issue. Or if someone identifies as female but is pre-op and not taking hormones, they have a significant competitive advantage in many sports. Whereas if it can be demonstrated that because of hormones etc. muscle mass has been lost and the person no longer has a significant competitive advantage, they should be allowed to compete.

3. I've read in the past that some wheelchair athletes etc. want their sports open to people who aren't disabled, so that it may be seen more as a sport with specific equipment, rather than a sport which only the disabled may pursue. Which makes sense to me. The only wheelchair sport I ever competed in (I'm not disabled, they needed more participants) was wheelchair fencing, and my recollection is that there were competitive categories, e.g. someone who had full upper-body strength and reaction times was in a different category from someone with more limited upper-body mobility or speed. Which also made sense to me, presumably those advocating an open policy on competing in wheelchair events mean only at the highest levels.
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Old 26th February 2019, 01:15 PM   #312
Ziggurat
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Originally Posted by epeeist View Post
Whereas if it can be demonstrated that because of hormones etc. muscle mass has been lost and the person no longer has a significant competitive advantage, they should be allowed to compete.
There are claims that this has been demonstrated for many athletes on hormone therapy, but those claims are disputable. The differences between women and men aren't just muscle mass. For runners (as in the case mentioned in the OP), men have narrower hips and a smaller Q angle, which makes for a more efficient stride. Hormone therapy cannot change that. I don't think hormone therapy decreases the neuromuscular efficiency advantage that men have over women either.
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Old 26th February 2019, 01:21 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nobody said anything about attaching a stigma.
So? There is a stigma currently, whether or not anyone here claimed it.

Quote:
Being a woman isn't a disability. But maybe suffering from gender dysphoria is a disability.
It generally isn't one. I know of no cases of it being so.

Quote:
If you're cismale, and an athlete, and competing in the men's division causes you psychological suffering, is that a disability? If the only thing that mitigates your suffering is being allowed to compete as a woman in the women's division, is that a disability?

And if that's the only way to treat your condition, does it really make sense to deny you that option? Does it really help you in any way to have a non-cisgendered division for you to compete in?
Is that a thing that exists with robust study and evidence of treatment effectiveness?

That's one of the biggest problem with all trans gender related discussions; hypothetical conditions and treatments are treated as equivalent stand-ins for things we have a lot of evidence for.

Basically as your hypothetical condition doesn't exist and its hypothetical treatment doesn't exist, and neither are equivalent to being trans gender, I don't think exploring it will help advance any understanding. (My examples actually exist by the way.)
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Old 26th February 2019, 01:41 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I almost just literally wish we had never invented pronouns.

The idea that "identity" and "descriptive terms applied to" are different things is... not helping.

Perhaps you would like Farsi? I was having a conversation with my friend that was born in Iran a few days ago and I was amazed to learn that Farsi doesn't have masculine and feminine pronouns. He mentioned to me that this was a part of English that he still has trouble with because in Farsi he didn't need to identify the sex of the individual to use a pronoun.


He ran home and she ran home in Farsi (Persian) from Google translate:



او به خانه زد
او به خانه زد
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:01 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
So? There is a stigma currently, whether or not anyone here claimed it.



It generally isn't one. I know of no cases of it being so.



Is that a thing that exists with robust study and evidence of treatment effectiveness?

That's one of the biggest problem with all trans gender related discussions; hypothetical conditions and treatments are treated as equivalent stand-ins for things we have a lot of evidence for.

Basically as your hypothetical condition doesn't exist and its hypothetical treatment doesn't exist, and neither are equivalent to being trans gender, I don't think exploring it will help advance any understanding. (My examples actually exist by the way.)

For me, the biggest problem with trans gender related discussions is the lack of concern by advocates that people who wish to pursue a transgender life and are encouraged to do so are not as well off as people who wish to pursue a transgender life that are counseled that there is no medical method to accomplish what they wish and they should seriously consider that what they want is impossible. I differentiate between men that want to act and dress like women and men that want to be women. It is possible for men to dress and act like women and I'm fine with that if that is what they want to do.

This idea, of course, places me with the religious right and almost every social conservative group going. I am not with those groups on most social issues and being criticized for having a view that is outside the groups I normally agree with is not much of a problem for me. Although my daughters tend to see my thoughts about this as at best uninformed. And they might be right.

I believe the second biggest problem is the ridiculous lengths that some people have gone to support transgender people by promoting and/or allowing transgender females to compete with biological females. This absurd approach is rightly rejected by right wing folks who see this as further proof of left wing craziness. Standing with transgender people on this undermines society's acceptance of transgender people whether from the right or the left.

FWIW, I do not stand with the right in any way on the choice of bathroom nonsense. This is a made up issue designed to energize their base on a wedge issue.
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:12 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Strawberry View Post
Its more socially just to bar them from that role in society.
This
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:15 PM   #317
Roger Ramjets
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Being a woman isn't a disability.
It is in some sports.

But it's irrelevant. Men may be stronger than women on average, but people come in all sizes and physiques, both male and female. That doesn't mean a person has the right to pick which events to compete in based only on physical ability or gender or any other attribute - or perhaps it does - depending on the rules for that event.

All of you people talking about what categories a person 'should' be allowed to compete in should can it. The rules are made by sports organizers and players. So long as they don't violate any other laws it's nobody's business but theirs.

Some say that trans women are not 'women', but there are actual women who have strong male-like physiques too - perhaps more than most trans women. So why should one be excluded but the other not? Unless you are involved in making the rules it's not your call.
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:19 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I think there is an impasse. Cis-women are going to be right to say that trans-women have an unfair advantage.
Just like women who failed gender tests. We need to also ban all women who have too much testosterone in them and force them to take blockers of course.
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:21 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by pharphis View Post
I think 2 is obviously the best choice.

We have to keep in mind that athleticism isn't "fair" for everyone to begin with. People have disabilities, hormonal problems, stunted growth, etc. ie many things outside of their control (or possibly anyone else's). This doesn't mean we need to break the system for the rest of the people to compete so that those who aren't fit enough can compete.

Maybe transgenderism just simply falls into the same category: tough luck, you can't get everything in life
Or cis women who fail their sex tests, freaks like that need to also be banned from competing.

Can we have race based criteria for competitions as well?
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Old 26th February 2019, 02:29 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
It is in some sports.

But it's irrelevant. Men may be stronger than women on average, but people come in all sizes and physiques, both male and female.
Men are far, far stronger than women on average. In the bench press, for example, an untrained man can be almost three times as strong as a woman of similar body weight, with advanced male athletes being around 60% stronger than females. The same is broadly true for all strength measures.
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