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Old 9th May 2019, 09:55 AM   #1
William Parcher
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Move aside Furries. It's Pup Play!

Inside the kinky world of 'pup play' in San Francisco where men act like young dogs while donning masks and are 'collared' by their handlers

Originally Posted by Daily Mail
They romp, growl, nuzzle, whimper, bark and wag their tails. Sometimes on all fours, tongue out or playing with toys such as balls and Frisbees. Other moments, they are flat on their backs, cuddling.

Welcome to the kinky world of 'pup play': A subculture of BDSM in which mostly men act like young dogs decked out in gear that includes a colorful array of masks, hoods, muzzles, collars, leashes, mitts and tails, and sometimes coupled with brightly-hued knee socks stamped with paw prints.

Unlike, perhaps, other relationships of dominance and submission, there is no one way to engage in pup play. It can be sexual or nonsexual, one can sport the gear or not, and a pup may or may not have a handler, someone who can give commands, such as speak and rollover, or sexual orders. Some also choose a pup identity, complete with names like Threat, Rotten Dog, Dirty, Deuce and Binky.

But almost all pups wear a collar, explained Dr Phillip Hammack, one of the founders of the Fog City Pack in San Francisco and who goes by the pup name Turbo.

'The collar is really important symbolically and that is something that most of us tend to wear almost all the time, at least when we're in non-work settings,' Hammack, 43, told DailyMail dot com. 'The collar signals our pup identity. It has our tag on it.

'Some pups are "locked," meaning that they have a kind of owner or - we tend not to use the word master - an owner or a handler or an alpha whose collared them, we'd say.'

Hammack, who has lived in San Francisco for about 12 years, said that the mainstream visibility of the puppy play community has dramatically increased in the city since around 2014.

'I will say in San Francisco, I just feel like people barely bat an eye. I mean if they do see us in gear, I think San Francisco is just a place where people are accustomed to seeing diverse subcultures, to seeing interesting outfits and looks.'...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...oung-dogs.html
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:01 AM   #2
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Yep!

Puppy Play, Kitten Play and other types of Animal Play is a thing.

Just watch the music video for What Does the Fox Say? if you want to see for yourself.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:04 AM   #3
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...The Big Dog jokes in 3...2...1...
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:32 PM   #4
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Maybe it's because I've spent a good chunk of my life living in or traveling through Germany but I don't see how this rates a thread. It's not like you see this sort of thing all the time, but a stroll down the Konning Straus in Stuttgart on a nice Saturday afternoon will likely resulting in seeing a few pairings of this nature. I don't get it, but it's not really important that I do.
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:37 PM   #5
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Wooof!
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Old 9th May 2019, 05:44 PM   #6
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I'll just leave this here:

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article...ank-hafertepen
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:14 PM   #7
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I do not see how this is substantially different enough from furries to be classed differently. Anthropomorphized animal costumes are anthropomorphized animal costumes, are they not?
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:33 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I do not see how this is substantially different enough from furries to be classed differently. Anthropomorphized animal costumes are anthropomorphized animal costumes, are they not?
Sure, but there are levels of immersion. Some people don an animal costume and then just walk around like a person in an animal costume. Others go deeper.
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Old 9th May 2019, 07:48 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I do not see how this is substantially different enough from furries to be classed differently. Anthropomorphized animal costumes are anthropomorphized animal costumes, are they not?
It's very much substantially different.

One group adopts the identity of a pet animal in the service of a dominant-submissive interaction.

The other group self identifies as a non human being to satisfy the need to so identify.

Consider the difference between a drag queen and a transwoman.
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:40 PM   #10
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This is going to be one of those threads. I just know it.
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:45 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
This is going to be one of those threads. I just know it.
One of what threads?
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:51 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
One of what threads?
In a dozen posts, we've already gone from kinky puppy play to bears dying of silicone injected balls. You know. One of those.
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:55 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In a dozen posts, we've already gone from kinky puppy play to bears dying of silicone injected balls. You know. One of those.
Since I'm not sure how the two are related, apart from each having a dominant-submissive theme, I'm afraid I don't know. Can you elaborate?
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Old 9th May 2019, 08:59 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Since I'm not sure how the two are related, apart from each having a dominant-submissive theme, I'm afraid I don't know. Can you elaborate?
It reminds me that there are people running around who wear collars and leashes and blow up their balls like balloons. This upsets me existentially.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:03 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
It reminds me that there are people running around who wear collars and leashes and blow up their balls like balloons. This upsets me existentially.
Why should it? I mean in the Hafertepen case it led to a person's death, which is tragic, but why should any of the rest bother you at all? Let them get their kink on.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:11 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Why should it? I mean in the Hafertepen case it led to a person's death, which is tragic, but why should any of the rest bother you at all? Let them get their kink on.
Oh, it doesn't bother me what they do for kicks. It just bothers me that that would be the kick. Something about...not sure how to say it...the pride of not being a pet. Planet of the Apes struck a chord and all.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:18 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, it doesn't bother me what they do for kicks. It just bothers me that that would be the kick. Something about...not sure how to say it...the pride of not being a pet. Planet of the Apes struck a chord and all.
Oh, that's actually a component of it. A huge number of people get off on being humiliated and degraded. Humiliation can play a big role in BDSM relationships. It doesn't have to, but it can.

There is nothing wrong with kink, and there's a lot of really weird kink out there. As long as it's consensual and nobody is being hurt, get it on. This is where the Hafertepen case is very different. The dom dommed their sub so far that the sub died. That's not how it's supposed to work. I doubt the dom intended to kill their sub, but they just went too far.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:23 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Oh, that's actually a component of it. A huge number of people get off on being humiliated and degraded. Humiliation can play a big role in BDSM relationships. It doesn't have to, but it can.

There is nothing wrong with kink, and there's a lot of really weird kink out there. As long as it's consensual and nobody is being hurt, get it on. This is where the Hafertepen case is very different. The dom dommed their sub so far that the sub died. That's not how it's supposed to work. I doubt the dom intended to kill their sub, but they just went too far.
See, that's it. I know there's nothing wrong wit getting your freak on in a hundred wildly unconventional ways. But even consensually, something feels unhealthy about leashes and humiliation as pleasure. Then again, some people don't get what I do for kicks, so live and let live.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:37 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
See, that's it. I know there's nothing wrong wit getting your freak on in a hundred wildly unconventional ways. But even consensually, something feels unhealthy about leashes and humiliation as pleasure. Then again, some people don't get what I do for kicks, so live and let live.
Well, in very rare cases it can be taken to extremes, as we have seen. But otherwise *shrug*. I'm depressingly vanilla myself, so I don't really grok any of it, but I accept that some people are into it.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
I doubt the dom intended to kill their sub, but they just went too far.

"just"??!
I'm with Thermal on this one, but I know that some people get extremely upset if you even ask the question, why the hell would anybody want to do a thing like that? What's in it for them?
In that thread people kept telling me that it was a thing, as if I didn't obviously know that when I started the thread, instead of trying to explain why it was a thing.
At least in this thread, it would be much more difficult for the pseudo-Darwinists to use the argument that it's obviously in people's nature; that evolution is what makes them want to do it.
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Old 9th May 2019, 09:46 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
... but I accept that some people are into it.

So does Thermal, obviously:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Then again, some people don't get what I do for kicks, so live and let live.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So does Thermal, obviously:
Yeah...I don't get the appeal of humiliation and degradation. seems like the opposite of happy to me. But some things I do I take to extremes, too. Not OP stuff, just relaxation that doesn't seem relaxing to others. Bloody and stuff.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:11 PM   #23
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That explains the ball-on-a-chain but not the schoolgirl outfit!

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:18 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
That explains the ball-on-a-chain but not the schoolgirl outfit!

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Well, that brings us full circle back to the OP, n'est-ce pas?

I would be a Sub for Gogo. Not that I'd have much choice.

eta: I expect a gold star or something for not going anywhere with the catholic schoolgirl thing.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
"just"??!
I'm with Thermal on this one, but I know that some people get extremely upset if you even ask the question, why the hell would anybody want to do a thing like that? What's in it for them?
In that thread people kept telling me that it was a thing, as if I didn't obviously know that when I started the thread, instead of trying to explain why it was a thing.
At least in this thread, it would be much more difficult for the pseudo-Darwinists to use the argument that it's obviously in people's nature; that evolution is what makes them want to do it.
Each of the parties in the relationship gets something different out of it. For the dom, the pleasure is in having complete control over every aspect of the other person's life. It's a literal power trip, and really not that hard to understand.

For the sub, however, it's a little more complicated. For the sub, it's about giving up control to someone else. It's an interesting phenomenon that people who wield a lot of power in their regular life, like CEOs and politicians, are frequently submissive in the bedroom. That stereotype? Yeah, it's more or less true. For a sub, the pleasure of giving control over to someone else can be so intense as to be sexual.

It's important to note that these folks are consenting to be dominated and humiliated - it's what they want. They're not being forced into anything. In a healthy dom/sub relationship, the sub can end it at any time.

The Hafertepens also had internet celebrity, so there was an element of exhibitionism there as well. They were doing it for an audience, and therefore probably also for money.
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:44 PM   #26
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I'm aware that they are "consenting to be dominated and humiliated," but I'm also aware that that's a contradiction in terms. So is "a healthy dom/sub relationship." And so is "consenting" and "complete control".

Preacher meets God:

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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 9th May 2019, 10:50 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm aware that they are "consenting to be dominated and humiliated," but I'm also aware that that's a contradiction in terms. So is "a healthy dom/sub relationship." And so is "consenting" and "complete control".
It's not. None of the things you have said are contradictory really are. I think that might be the source of your misunderstanding.
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I'm aware that they are "consenting to be dominated and humiliated," but I'm also aware that that's a contradiction in terms. So is "a healthy dom/sub relationship." And so is "consenting" and "complete control".
I think, perhaps, you don't know enough about it to make those judgements.


Generally speaking the agreement, from the sub (but PYL, obvs) is that they consent to have their partner do whatever their partner wants to them, whenever they want, provided they do only what they have been given permission to do.

There's a great deal more communication and consent involved than I suspect you think there is.



I found this interesting from the article:

"Unlike, perhaps, other relationships of dominance and submission, there is no one way to engage in pup play."

That's just a weird thing to write. I want to know which relationships the writer thinks it's possible to do wrong.
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Old 10th May 2019, 04:53 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think, perhaps, you don't know enough about it to make those judgements.

Generally speaking the agreement, from the sub (but PYL, obvs) is that they consent to have their partner do whatever their partner wants to them, whenever they want, provided they do only what they have been given permission to do.

There's a great deal more communication and consent involved than I suspect you think there is.

I think you and arthwollipot should take another look at the contradiction in term: consent to be dominated. I have read more than enough to make the judgment. These relationships can be so absurd that the subs actually force the role of dom upon their non-consenting partners. One of the guys that the paraphilia was named after did just that:

Quote:
Sacher-Masoch pressured his first wife – Aurora von Rümelin, whom he married in 1873 – to live out the experience of the book, against her preferences.
Leopold von Sacher Masoch: Private life (Wikipedia)

I'm also well aware that it requires contracts that aren't real contracts and an awful lot of communication about these contracts, safe words, equipment, interior design etc. And even then, people appear to be averse to wondering why they need all that stuff when it would be so much easier and even liberating to do without.

ETA: A Danish write, Maria Marcus, did wonder and wrote a book about it: A Taste for Pain (GoodReads).
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:03 AM   #30
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There is a (real) dog-friendly bar nearby -- I have taken a foster dog or two while having lunch on the patio.

Later on I saw a notice for a Pup Night event there, and thought it would be fun to take my current puppy foster there to socialize with other dogs. I then went to the web page to look for details of the event.

Oh. Never mind...
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:03 AM   #31
3point14
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think you and arthwollipot should take another look at the contradiction in term: consent to be dominated. I have read more than enough to make the judgment. These relationships can be so absurd that the subs actually force the role of dom upon their non-consenting partners. One of the guys that the paraphilia was named after did just that:




I'm also well aware that it requires contracts that aren't real contracts and an awful lot of communication about these contracts, safe words, equipment, interior design etc. And even then, people appear to be averse to wondering why they need all that stuff when it would be so much easier and even liberating to do without.

ETA: A Danish write, Maria Marcus, did wonder and wrote a book about it: A Taste for Pain (GoodReads).

Ah, I think Ive got it now. You're a bit Marge Simpson. You can't work out why anyone would like it because you doin't.

It's not for everyone. Vanilla is the norm. Just do your thing and leave others to do theirs.

Just cos you don't get it, there's no need for you to worry too much about it.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:15 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
Ah, I think Ive got it now. You're a bit Marge Simpson. You can't work out why anyone would like it because you doin't.

It's not for everyone. Vanilla is the norm. Just do your thing and leave others to do theirs.

Just cos you don't get it, there's no need for you to worry too much about it.

You seem to think that the vacuous words, "It's not for everyone," actually explain anything and as if asking questions is already an interference in other people's business. But you can rest assured, I don't worry at all, and I'm not arguing for making spanking rooms illegal, but it's kind of odd that that worry immediately appears whenever you question this theme.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:25 AM   #33
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Fetish is like taste, literal taste: you either like the taste of a food or you don't, and you cannot explain why or argue anybody else into changing their own reaction to it.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:30 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You seem to think that the vacuous words, "It's not for everyone," actually explain anything
I don't think it needs explaining.

What do you want explained? You don't get it. You're going to make no effort to get it. You clearly have a very dim view of it all and just want to proclaim how much you don't get it and how it's just no necessary and ask why everyone can't just like the same things you like.

I don't really feel like fighting against that right now.

If you really want to know stuff, I'll tell you what I know, but you're not starting from there so I'm not going to make the effort.




Quote:
and as if asking questions is already an interference in other people's business. But you can rest assured, I don't worry at all, and I'm not arguing for making spanking rooms illegal, but it's kind of odd that that worry immediately appears whenever you question this theme.
What worry? That you're going to start shutting things down? You know, I didn't even consider that you had the wherewithal to do that.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fetish is like taste, literal taste: you either like the taste of a food or you don't, and you cannot explain why or argue anybody else into changing their own reaction to it.

Yup. for instance:

Sprouts - not for everyone. Requires little explanation.

Spanking - not for everyone - Requires a similar level of explanation.


I'm not prepared to sit though four pages of "But Whyyyyyy! I don't enjoy it, why should anyone else!!! I can't understand differing tastes in subjective experience!!"


(for instance)
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:58 AM   #36
dann
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fetish is like taste, literal taste: you either like the taste of a food or you don't, and you cannot explain why or argue anybody else into changing their own reaction to it.

No, it's not. It's nothing like taste at all. And I don't even think that you're thinking of literal taste (Wikipedia). You're thinking of figurative taste, and you're still wrong. You can actually explain why you like a book or a movie, and you can change your mind about them, for instance if you are presented with a persuasive argument. Or you can choose not to do so.
But at least we haven't heard from the pseudo-Darwinists yet. I would love to hear how evolution makes people want to dress up like dogs.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th May 2019 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 10th May 2019, 05:59 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I don't really feel like fighting against that right now.

Is anybody picking a fight with you?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:01 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Is anybody picking a fight with you?

I don't think so. Why do you ask? Are you confusing my slightly florid, somewhat metaphorical use of the word 'fight' for a literal one?
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:02 AM   #39
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No, I have a pretty good grasp of the difference between figurative and literal.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:03 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I have a pretty good grasp of the difference between figurative and literal.
Then no. I don't think anyone's picking a fight with me. What makes you ask?
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