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Old 10th May 2019, 06:07 AM   #41
Bikewer
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I’ve spent many years of reading in paraphilia-related texts in a search for the “why”?

The conclusion to date... “We don’t know”.

Likely the most - prominent author on the subject was the late John Money, who came up with his “lovemap” hypothesis but still didn’t determine why some folks’ lovemap gets “vandalized” as he called it...
Why instead of forming a normal idealized-mating-partner lovemap based on parents, siblings, and caregivers, the person instead sexualizes “other” things, like bondage, transvestism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and the whole list of 40-plus paraphilias.

Money thought that child abuse was involved in many cases, but many adult paraphiliacs report no such memory.
It seems all the various turn-ons are in some ways extensions of what most would think of as normal play or erotica.
The correspondence of pain and pleasure is well known and practiced in various ways all over the world. How many children indulge in “animal play”, pretending to be horses or dogs or kitties?
“Giving permission to be dominated” is usually phrased as “power exchange” in D/S terms.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:09 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, it's not. It's nothing like taste at all. And I don't even think that you're thinking of literal taste (Wikipedia). You're thinking of figurative taste, and you're still wrong. You can actually explain why you like a book or a movie, and you can change your mind about them, for instance if you are presented with a persuasive argument. Or you can choose not to do so.
But at least we haven't heard from the pseudo-Darwinists yet. I would love to hear how evolution makes people want to dress up like dogs.
I was speaking of the sense of taste. I defy you to explain why you like the taste of one fruit over another.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I’ve spent many years of reading in paraphilia-related texts in a search for the “why”?

The conclusion to date... “We don’t know”.

Likely the most - prominent author on the subject was the late John Money, who came up with his “lovemap” hypothesis but still didn’t determine why some folks’ lovemap gets “vandalized” as he called it...
Why instead of forming a normal idealized-mating-partner lovemap based on parents, siblings, and caregivers, the person instead sexualizes “other” things, like bondage, transvestism, exhibitionism, voyeurism, and the whole list of 40-plus paraphilias.

Your reporting of it suggest to me that he viewed these things as exclusive. It's either parents siblings, caregivers etc or the kinky stuff. Is that a poor reading on my part?
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:11 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
I’ve spent many years of reading in paraphilia-related texts in a search for the “why”?

You know that you're not supposed to do that, don't you?!

Originally Posted by Bikewer View Post
How many children indulge in “animal play”, pretending to be horses or dogs or kitties?

I did, but I don't remember ever getting an erection while playing.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th May 2019 at 06:25 AM.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I was speaking of the sense of taste. I defy you to explain why you like the taste of one fruit over another.

OK, so you are talking biology! I can't think of a fruit that I don't like so I'm at a loss here. I can tell you that I don't like cheese because it either smells like feces (most of them) or barf (parmesan). But I've been persuaded to try pizza with (very mild) cheese and quite like it nowadays.
But why do you compare fetishes to something as biological as the sense of smell? Do you think it's a question of nature rather than nurture?


ETA: Are you unaware that fetichists can go on for hours about the subtleties of their kinks and why they prefer one for another?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

Last edited by dann; 10th May 2019 at 06:20 AM.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:25 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
ETA: Are you unaware that fetichists can go on for hours about the subtleties of their kinks and why they prefer one for another?

As can football fans (all varieties), music fans, movie fans, opera fans, wine buffs and loads of other people.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:29 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I think you and arthwollipot should take another look at the contradiction in term: consent to be dominated.
People consent to be dominated all the time. Employees. Soldiers. Students. Patients. Spouses.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:30 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, so you are talking biology! I can't think of a fruit that I don't like so I'm at a loss here. I can tell you that I don't like cheese because it either smells like feces (most of them) or barf (parmesan). But I've been persuaded to try pizza with (very mild) cheese and quite like it nowadays.
But why do you compare fetishes to something as biological as the sense of smell? Do you think it's a question of nature rather than nurture?


ETA: Are you unaware that fetichists can go on for hours about the subtleties of their kinks and why they prefer one for another?
My point is that enjoying or not enjoying an experience like the taste of strawberries or something erotic is completely subjective to the individual, cannot be explained to anyone else, and does not have a particular cause.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:31 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
As can football fans (all varieties), music fans, movie fans, opera fans, wine buffs and loads of other people.

Exactly! So can't football fans explain why they love football in general or a particular FC? And can't they switch their allegiances or tastes?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:33 AM   #50
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Jesus what is this?

Dann if you just want people to point and laugh at the people with the weird kinks with just admit it.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:33 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
My point is that enjoying or not enjoying an experience like the taste of strawberries or something erotic is completely subjective to the individual, cannot be explained to anyone else, and does not have a particular cause.

Yes, I understand that that's how fetichists also feel about their kinks, but it's just an analogy that doesn't really explain anything.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:34 AM   #52
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I'm starting to agree with theprestige on argument by analogy. Fetish isn't sports fandom.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:35 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Jesus what is this?

Dann if you just want people to point and laugh at the people with the weird kinks with just admit it.

Why would I want them to do that? And what does Jesus have to do with it?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:35 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I understand that that's how fetichists also feel about their kinks, but it's just an analogy that doesn't really explain anything.
Ditto your sports analogy. I don't think fetishes CAN be explained. Neither can liking the taste of one food over another, which is why I brought that up.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:36 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm starting to agree with theprestige on argument by analogy. Fetish isn't sports fandom.

And it isn't sense of taste ...
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:38 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
And it isn't sense of taste ...
Yes, I know. I used the parallel because I don't think either can be 'explained' in the way you appear to think paraphilia can.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:39 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Exactly! So can't football fans explain why they love football in general or a particular FC? And can't they switch their allegiances or tastes?
I think they'd struggle to explain with any real objectivity why the prefer football to rugby or hockey or cricket.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:40 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, I know. I used the parallel because I don't think either can be 'explained' in the way you appear to think paraphilia can.

OK. Like I said:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, I understand that that's how fetichists also feel about their kinks, ....
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:41 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You know that you're not supposed to do that, don't you?!




I did, but I don't remember ever getting an erection while playing.
Erm just a question here but quick hypothetical..

If you were sitting at a restaurant and say a gay couple or a transperson sat down at table next to you. Would you sit there loudly demanding to know why they wanted to be that way? Why they would chose to have sex with the same sex rather than heterosexual or to assume the sex they weren't born with?
Would you do it in such a flippant attitude?

I'd imagine if you did you would come across as being quite rude and vulgar..


If it's adults engaging in consensual acts then TBH it's none of your business what they get up to in the bedroom.

You can wonder of course but won't ever understand why some people like mint choc chip when all you like is vanilla

Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK, so you are talking biology! I can't think of a fruit that I don't like so I'm at a loss here. I can tell you that I don't like cheese because it either smells like feces (most of them) or barf (parmesan). But I've been persuaded to try pizza with (very mild) cheese and quite like it nowadays.
But why do you compare fetishes to something as biological as the sense of smell? Do you think it's a question of nature rather than nurture?


ETA: Are you unaware that fetichists can go on for hours about the subtleties of their kinks and why they prefer one for another?
Sexual preferences are biology..
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:41 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think they'd struggle to explain with any real objectivity why the prefer football to rugby or hockey or cricket.

Not in my experience.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
OK. Like I said:
And I disagree.
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:51 AM   #62
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This is getting Bob level.

"I demand someone explain to me in mathematical detail how anyone could possibly think, say, do, enjoy, or want something different from me."
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
Erm just a question here but quick hypothetical..

If you were sitting at a restaurant and say a gay couple or a transperson sat down at table next to you. Would you sit there loudly demanding to know why they wanted to be that way? Why they would chose to have sex with the same sex rather than heterosexual or to assume the sex they weren't born with?
Would you do it in such a flippant attitude?

I'd imagine if you did you would come across as being quite rude and vulgar..

No, I wouldn't. Why do you ask that question? Why does everybody become so bloody defensive as soon as this question is asked, not in a restaurant, not personally, but in an Internet forum where people can remain anonymous if they want to?
What is flippant about the way I ask the question?

Quote:
If it's adults engaging in consensual acts then TBH it's none of your business what they get up to in the bedroom.

Did I claim that it was my business?!

Quote:
You can wonder of course but won't ever understand why some people like mint choc chip when all you like is vanilla

Yes, I can wonder, as long as I don't ask ...

Quote:
Sexual preferences are biology..

So what is biological about dressing up as dogs? What is biological about dressing up in leather? (I do it all the time when I'm riding my motorcycle and I don't find it difficult to explain why.)
I would have a very hard time coming up with biological explanations for most of these: List of paraphilias (Wikipedia).
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:54 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This is getting Bob level.

"I demand someone explain to me in mathematical detail how anyone could possibly think, say, do, enjoy, or want something different from me."

Did I ever mention "different from me"? Did I ever mention "in mathematical detail"?
What is the point of your strawman?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:56 AM   #65
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*doublepost*
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Old 10th May 2019, 06:57 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Did I ever mention "different from me"? Did I ever mention "in mathematical detail"?
What is the point of your strawman?
The point is there's no possible answer to your question beyond "Other people want and like different things" that we could possibly give you.
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Old 10th May 2019, 08:47 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, I wouldn't.Why does everybody become so bloody defensive as soon as this question is asked, not in a restaurant, not personally, but in an Internet forum where people can remain anonymous if they want to?
ok simple change the hypothetical...
would you go online to an internet forum and demand to know why people are gay or trans?

when the only answer they give is "because i am" would you still demand to know the answer?

would you then conflate their consensual behaviour to abusive non consensual acts like you've done in this thread?

if you saw someone doing as much would you consider it rude and obnoxious?


Quote:
Why do you ask that question?
just a friendly neighbourhood attempt to give you an chance of introspection as to what you are doing
Quote:
What is flippant about the way I ask the question?
.......



Quote:

Did I claim that it was my business?!




Yes, I can wonder, as long as I don't ask ...
read those 2 sentences out loud and take a step back and think for a moment





Quote:
So what is biological about dressing up as dogs? What is biological about dressing up in leather? (I do it all the time when I'm riding my motorcycle and I don't find it difficult to explain why.)
I would have a very hard time coming up with biological explanations for most of these: List of paraphilias (Wikipedia).
people arent all wired the same as you are be it gay, trans, masochist, submissive dom what ever...

i have a very hard time as to why people enjoy eating mushrooms but i dont care if they do or not. i just dont eat them if someone tries to feed them to me

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Old 10th May 2019, 11:44 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
ok simple change the hypothetical...
would you go online to an internet forum and demand to know why people are gay or trans?

when the only answer they give is "because i am" would you still demand to know the answer?

would you then conflate their consensual behaviour to abusive non consensual acts like you've done in this thread?

if you saw someone doing as much would you consider it rude and obnoxious?
I don't think that's the same thing.

Preference is biological; we've actually found evidence for that. Paraphilias aren't about preference in partners. Paraphilias are about things you do with a partner you've already chosen; the preference part (gay, straight, either, etc) is already out of the way at that point.

I'm waiting for a convincing argument to be made that why someone likes to dress up in leather and be whipped (or do the whipping), say, is as objectively biological a matter as why someone is attracted to males or females, or even specifically attracted to men or women who fit a specific "type".

I think the biggest roadblock to this conversation is that perhaps nobody here in this forum (or this thread at least) happens to enjoy any of those fetishes, so everyone who tries to answer dann's question is lmited to sharing second-hand information at best, which is incomplete. That's the other thing about paraphilias that makes them a distinct animal from preference: everybody has a preference, even if that preference is "none". Not everyone has a paraphilia; there may even be substantial numbers of people who don't.
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Old 10th May 2019, 11:47 AM   #69
fuelair
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Maybe it's because I've spent a good chunk of my life living in or traveling through Germany but I don't see how this rates a thread. It's not like you see this sort of thing all the time, but a stroll down the Konning Straus in Stuttgart on a nice Saturday afternoon will likely resulting in seeing a few pairings of this nature. I don't get it, but it's not really important that I do.
I guess that's what they call Doggy Style...………..
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Old 10th May 2019, 11:49 AM   #70
The Great Zaganza
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I don't get the whole D/s relation, intellectually.
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Old 10th May 2019, 11:52 AM   #71
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Paraphilia, Paranoia, Paradiddle (which is not what it may appear to be!), Parachute and, at last, the amazing Paramecium!!!!!!
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Old 10th May 2019, 11:54 AM   #72
fuelair
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
I don't get the whole D/s relation, intellectually.
A course or 3 in Psychiatry would clear that up and make it right as rain!!!!!!!!
Unless, of course. the rain is actually left!!!
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Old 10th May 2019, 12:37 PM   #73
ginjawarrior
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I don't think that's the same thing.

I think the biggest roadblock to this conversation is that perhaps nobody here in this forum (or this thread at least) happens to enjoy any of those fetishes,
maybe this forum isnt the best place for anyone here to be discussing or outing themselves to those fetishes

especially when the tone of this thread from some people is pointing and laughing at the "freaks"

i'm not into puppy play myself but i certainly do enjoy my icecream with mint choc chip and sprinkles and hundreds of thousands etc, etc..

why do i like it that flavour?

i just do, its how my head is wired

feel free to pm me if that doesnt satisfy you
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Old 10th May 2019, 01:33 PM   #74
TragicMonkey
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
I think the biggest roadblock to this conversation is that perhaps nobody here in this forum (or this thread at least) happens to enjoy any of those fetishes, so everyone who tries to answer dann's question is lmited to sharing second-hand information at best, which is incomplete.
Incorrect. I enjoy several kinks that boring people would find to be odd. Pup play is not amongst them, but I do have friends who are into that, and have interacted socially with quite a few gentlemen with that interest. They tended to be very nice young men. From what I've observed the pup fetish is growing in popularity, there certainly seems to be more and more space devoted to pup gear at the major retailers of fetish goods, and one sees more of them at events than one used to.

I don't believe we're permitted to discuss sexual matters too frankly here, so I doubt much detail can be divulged.
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Old 10th May 2019, 01:43 PM   #75
Thermal
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
maybe this forum isnt the best place for anyone here to be discussing or outing themselves to those fetishes

especially when the tone of this thread from some people is pointing and laughing at the "freaks"

i'm not into puppy play myself but i certainly do enjoy my icecream with mint choc chip and sprinkles and hundreds of thousands etc, etc..

why do i like it that flavour?

i just do, its how my head is wired

feel free to pm me if that doesnt satisfy you
Yeah, I get that. Diffrent strokes, so to speak. But I think that the fascination is that it doesn't seem like one of the flavors. Kind of like at a choice at Baskin Robbins 31 flavors, someone insists on broken glass. You just feel intrigued why someone would choose something so foreign to a flavor, doubly so if they seem otherwise nice.

For my part, I don't care. Nice peeps are nice peeps, and their fun and games aren't my biz.
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Old 10th May 2019, 02:11 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Sure, but there are levels of immersion. Some people don an animal costume and then just walk around like a person in an animal costume. Others go deeper.
There people can't possibly be serious, can they? It's just a game to troll people, right?
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Old 10th May 2019, 02:16 PM   #77
ginjawarrior
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yeah, I get that. Diffrent strokes, so to speak. But I think that the fascination is that it doesn't seem like one of the flavors. Kind of like at a choice at Baskin Robbins 31 flavors, someone insists on broken glass. You just feel intrigued why someone would choose something so foreign to a flavor, doubly so if they seem otherwise nice.

For my part, I don't care. Nice peeps are nice peeps, and their fun and games aren't my biz.
Its ok to be intrigued.

Theres a huge social stigma about it because its the "unknown" Even if most of us are atheists here we've all been conditioned in part by the religious thinkings about sex and relationships.

for some people thats ok and they live their lives perfectly happy sitting in that box given to them. others feel a constant need for something different

most kinky people keep it to themselves because of that stigma but would happily talk to someone genuinely interested in talking about it.

kink clubs arent so much about the play as much as being able to be yourself openly

you may see my selection as more like broken glass than mint choc chip but i process pain in a much different way than you do
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Old 10th May 2019, 02:25 PM   #78
Thermal
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
Its ok to be intrigued.

Theres a huge social stigma about it because its the "unknown" Even if most of us are atheists here we've all been conditioned in part by the religious thinkings about sex and relationships.

for some people thats ok and they live their lives perfectly happy sitting in that box given to them. others feel a constant need for something different

most kinky people keep it to themselves because of that stigma but would happily talk to someone genuinely interested in talking about it.

kink clubs arent so much about the play as much as being able to be yourself openly

you may see my selection as more like broken glass than mint choc chip but i process pain in a much different way than you do
I get the pain processing; I'm not normally happy in my recreation till someone gets hurt. Usually me. Its the sliding over to sensuality that I don't quite get. For me, pain is an asexual gig. Hard to understand that line being blurred
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Old 10th May 2019, 02:39 PM   #79
ginjawarrior
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lol and i bet theres some people that look at your recreational choice as a weird flavor

theres a spectrum. everything from a slap and a tickle to things that cannot be mentioned on this forum

some people hate scratching, biting, slaps and such during sex. for others its just the beginning

it isnt always sexual either. theres many many different dynamics. too many to talk about

not the right forum to talk in detail about it all though
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Old 10th May 2019, 02:50 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Yes, I know. I used the parallel because I don't think either can be 'explained' in the way you appear to think paraphilia can.
The more I see dann's argument, the more convinced I become that it's not:

"What is the root cause of this preference?"

But rather:

"How is this preference even possible?!"

You see it in his take on dom/sub relationships. He doesn't think humans should be wanting that, and seems to think they shouldn't be able to want it. The explanation he's demanding is how come humans are able to want stuff he thinks they shouldn't be able to want.
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