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Tags anti-vaxxers , diet issues , parenting incidents , parenting issues , veganism

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Old 14th May 2019, 10:49 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The key word here is not "vegan". The key word is "neglect". They neglected to properly feed the child. And yes they are to blame. Though chances are they need help for mental illness or for whatever the cause of the neglect (drug addicts maybe?).

This is not something a little milk or meat would have fixed/prevented. The child is not malnourished because they used soy milk instead of cow's milk.


And vegans are as likely to be interested in not over-consuming the world's resources as they are to be concerned about animal welfare. Higher up the food chain, food is more resource costly to produce.
"Not over-consuming the world's resources" is a good argument for moderating ones consumption of animal products. However, many vegans think it's a good reason to never ever consume any animal product, and try to shame anyone who does. Another poster said veganism is like a religion, and IME for many vegans and vegetarians it is, and they proselytise as agressively as evangelical Christians.
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Old 14th May 2019, 10:50 AM   #82
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So many people acting like they're the picture of health.

Most people arguing against veganism don't care about nutrients. I've once had an overweight man with recurring gout tell me with a straight face that I'll go sick because I don't eat meat.

Either provide some actual proof that vegans are less healthy than the general population or shut up.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:10 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Which two categories? Are you also falsely accusing vegans?
I can't tell if they were crackpots before being infected with idiocy of veganism or after, but short of having some very nasty medical condition (I got to see few sad cases) that forces them to be vegan-like, they are crackpots. (And I include everybody who believes they are saving planet - hint: they are not)

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Citation, thanks.
Do they have medical condition? No? Then they are crackpots. (Maybe being stuck on deserted island or in the middle of famine might get them an exception…)

But then, half of the population is accidentally on vegetarian diet already. (Many "processed meats" or even raw meats don't contain much of meat in the first place...)

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Some of my best friends are vegans. Truly, and it only comes up when we make meal plans. Most are not ideologs. But most vegans my age were converted by their children, and some of them...
I don't know any and the only sad cases I get to see are those in a vegan restaurant.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:28 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
I can't tell if they were crackpots before being infected with idiocy of veganism or after, but short of having some very nasty medical condition (I got to see few sad cases) that forces them to be vegan-like, they are crackpots. (And I include everybody who believes they are saving planet - hint: they are not)
At least you've thought carefully about this.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:32 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
I can't tell if they were crackpots before being infected with idiocy of veganism or after, but short of having some very nasty medical condition (I got to see few sad cases) that forces them to be vegan-like, they are crackpots. (And I include everybody who believes they are saving planet - hint: they are not)
Mind to explain why you think that? Consuming animal products causes suffering. Now, you can argue that the suffering of animals is an inconsequential thing, and you're free to do so, but I think you'll agree that not causing unnecessary suffering is still better, no matter how inconsequential it is to you. So if consuming animal products is shown to be completely unnecessary, then the only reason not to be vegan is convenience.

I'm not saying that this means everyone needs to be vegan, but this is the rationale behind it, and it seems pretty sound to me.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:35 AM   #86
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Look if doctors were not noticing this the whole time then the couple was clearly not taking the child to doctors, so were is the alt med nature of the problem instead of the vegan?

If the kid was going to the doctor and getting vaccines this would have been caught far earlier.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:38 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Most people arguing against veganism don't care about nutrients. I've once had an overweight man with recurring gout tell me with a straight face that I'll go sick because I don't eat meat.
He was wrong, but there is no less gout in countries that are primarily vegetarian. And obese vegetarians not uncommon.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:49 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
He was wrong, but there is no less gout in countries that are primarily vegetarian. And obese vegetarians not uncommon.
Sure, but the point is that vegetarians and vegans are expected to live up to an unreasonable standard of health, and if they don't, their diet is to blame. It's not the lack of meat, it's just that many don't care all that much about health, so they're in the same boat as most people today, while those that do care about their health are usually extremely healthy.
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:51 AM   #89
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My neighbor keeps rabbits. Because grass and kitchen waste veggies make his rabbit meat cheaper than chicken and far cleaner as chemicals in the feed goes.

He don't give a crap what the rabbits feel, his family is well fed and the kids healthy. He cares about that.

The thousands of old laying hens sacrificed daily in town are fed a programmed diet where the last type of feed they get is not nutritious but serves to clean up the innards before sacrificing. They would not survive two weeks if left free range.

They are a product, not a living feeling being to be nurtured. They never had a chance in a vegan's world.

I can see both sides. I quit working in the chicken stuff out of a dislike for the process but had fried chicken for breakfast. Go figure....
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:55 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
He was wrong, but there is no less gout in countries that are primarily vegetarian.
There aren't any countries that are primarily vegetarian. Wait, are you trying to trick me? Do I have to say your name backwards or something?
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Old 14th May 2019, 11:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
There aren't any countries that are primarily vegetarian. Wait, are you trying to trick me? Do I have to say your name backwards or something?
Poor choice of words: with widespread vegetarianism. The point being, gout has many triggers. Deli meat is a classic, but tomatoes is not uncommon.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:00 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Sure, but the point is that vegetarians and vegans are expected to live up to an unreasonable standard of health, and if they don't, their diet is to blame.
Not by me. That's why I pointed out that your gouty fat guy was wrong.

- Another Gouty Fat Guy
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:07 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Poor choice of words: with widespread vegetarianism. The point being, gout has many triggers. Deli meat is a classic, but tomatoes is not uncommon.
It does, but I'd be surprised if vegetarians and vegans didn't have a lower incidence in comparable populations.

That's ok; sometimes I get surprised.
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:10 PM   #94
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In all honesty, I want everyone here to know that this has been a fun read. I think both sides have valid points.

I eat meat because it tastes good, and I could honestly not care less about the animals I eat. I think those that are vegan and us that eat meat are no different all in all.

I am of the feeling that unless you grow your own garden, harvest your own plants, don't use toxins for gardening, etc. the "save the animals" point rings hollow. I live in NoDak. I see what happens to animals in vegetable fields all of the time. It's not really pretty. So if you're eating mass market veggies...
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Old 14th May 2019, 12:32 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
I am of the feeling that unless you grow your own garden, harvest your own plants, don't use toxins for gardening, etc. the "save the animals" point rings hollow. I live in NoDak. I see what happens to animals in vegetable fields all of the time. It's not really pretty. So if you're eating mass market veggies...
That would still probably recommend a vegan diet, if your goal is to reduce the suffering inflicted on animals. On a mass market diet, you're responsible for the suffering of the animal on your plate, and for the suffering produced by all the crops raised to feed her. Animal agriculture is inefficient along several axes.
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:33 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
That would still probably recommend a vegan diet, if your goal is to reduce the suffering inflicted on animals. On a mass market diet, you're responsible for the suffering of the animal on your plate, and for the suffering produced by all the crops raised to feed her. Animal agriculture is inefficient along several axes.
Right, but to me it's all about convenience. I don't do this "you're worse than I am, therefore I get the moral high ground."

You might be saving a few more animals, but you're still killing animals for your own convenience (unless you grow your own garden). It's just what shade of grey are you? I'd say that consuming meat, and seeing that process, is still the more humane for the two animals to die. Watching them crushed by combines, shredded during planting, etc.

I'm fine with people eating vegan because they like veggies, or whatever their reason, outside of the "I'm saving the animals" (sans the circumstances aforementioned i.e. growing own garden). You're not, you're saving "different" animals. It's equally as douchey to **** on smaller animals.
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Old 14th May 2019, 01:45 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Which diet to which diet? You can have a crappy vegetarian diet or a healthy omnivorous diet. Vegetarian doesn't automatically make it healthier if every meal is mac and cheese.
Obviously.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:20 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Right, but to me it's all about convenience. I don't do this "you're worse than I am, therefore I get the moral high ground."
If it's all about convenience, I don't think you get any moral ground at all. That's just punting on the moral question altogether.

But few genuinely do this--the ones that do probably don't bother talking about it. Instead, there's always this "You think you're better than me?" stuff.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:41 PM   #99
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My boyfriend's vegan now. This is a very recent development.

It's been cool; I've tried a bunch of interesting new recipes, some of which are quite delicious. However, I spent 4 days at his house recently, and I was craving flesh like a madman by the end. It was kind of surprising. All I could think about was meat. I don't even eat that much meat, ordinarily. I have red meat once a week, chicken or turkey here and there, fish sometimes, and plenty of vegetable-based meals. But I was about ready to go slaughter my own fatted calf, no joke.

I was chugging milk on the train on the way home. It was so good, I thought I was going to pass out.

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Old 14th May 2019, 02:44 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
Mind to explain why you think that? Consuming animal products causes suffering.
Not necessarily. Scavengers consume animal products yet cause no suffering.

Quote:
Now, you can argue that the suffering of animals is an inconsequential thing, and you're free to do so, but I think you'll agree that not causing unnecessary suffering is still better, no matter how inconsequential it is to you. So if consuming animal products is shown to be completely unnecessary, then the only reason not to be vegan is convenience.

I'm not saying that this means everyone needs to be vegan, but this is the rationale behind it, and it seems pretty sound to me.
Plenty of things are unnecessary and cause suffering, why only consider it a sound rationale when it's about dietary choice?
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:46 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
If it's all about convenience, I don't think you get any moral ground at all. That's just punting on the moral question altogether.

But few genuinely do this--the ones that do probably don't bother talking about it. Instead, there's always this "You think you're better than me?" stuff.
My point is no one gets the moral high ground. So it matters not if I get any. The only person I would give moral high ground to is someone that can prove they grow their own food without using methods that kill smaller animals. If they can't, then they're just eating x diet up to the point it inconveniences them. Therefore they also lose any moral high ground.

This is the part that gets me. Small animals die from farming vegetables all of the time. Watching poisoned animals, or shredded field mice that feed on these vegetables that vegans are trying to sound superior for eating puts them on the same exact level as I am.
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:54 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
This is the part that gets me. Small animals die from farming vegetables all of the time. Watching poisoned animals, or shredded field mice that feed on these vegetables that vegans are trying to sound superior for eating puts them on the same exact level as I am.
The ethical argument is that suffering should be minimized. Treating it like an all-or-nothing gambit is untenable.

If you disagree, then what's the moral difference between the meat-eater who kicks puppies and the one who doesn't?
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Old 14th May 2019, 02:57 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
...

Vegans kill kids through diet at an increasing rate it can't be vegan diets. ...
Where did you get evidence of this little jewel?
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:03 PM   #104
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The stereotypes continue. Makes me think some of the vegan hating is really because a member knows a vegan they dislike.

There are vegans who are not moralizing against anyone else, not being fanatical, not doing anything except trying to use less resources. I don't get it that so many people think vegans are all one thing.
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:04 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
My point is no one gets the moral high ground.
I know that's your point--I'm saying it's wrong.

If animals matter, and I think they do, then it's rationally preferable to inflict as little suffering as possible upon them. And a vegan diet inflicts less suffering than typical diets, even if we stipulate terrible animal suffering in mills and threshers. It's not just that the vegan diet harms different animals, but fewer animals. There may be other diets that do similarly, but a vegan diet is at least among the rationally preferable diets.

You're just enlisting the perfect against the good in service of not giving a ****. You don't need to do that--you can just not give a ****. Curiously, nobody seems to want to do that.

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Old 14th May 2019, 03:07 PM   #106
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I would certainly eat vegan if I had the willpower. I don't know anything about raising kids that way, but it's irrelevant in my case. For regular adults, like me, it seems to have genuine benefits. Also, I'm the sort of person who does get periodically guilty about my carnivorousness.

A few weeks ago, for example, I was in the grocery store standing by the deli counter, and I glanced over at the seafood side. All these, like, partial, gutted-open fish, that were still very obviously fish, were all laid out there, in neat lines, for people to select. Next to them were some kind of shrimpy crab things, and they weren't even gutted or anything. They were just chilling there, intact, but motionless (obviously). The lobster tank was nearby - I couldn't even handle it at that point. All of a sudden, it was like I was in a science fiction movie. It seemed horrible and twisted. (This might sound melodramatic, but stuff like it happens to me all day, about various things. I don't mean it in a dramatic way. It was extremely affecting, though, and has led to subsequent introspection.)

I'm weak, though. Weak, weak. I'm also a picky eater (funny about textures), and I despise change. Excuses, excuses, etc.

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Old 14th May 2019, 03:10 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Plenty of things are unnecessary and cause suffering, why only consider it a sound rationale when it's about dietary choice?
What do you mean? I do consider it a sound rationale in other circumstances as well, I think. Can you give an example?
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Old 14th May 2019, 03:14 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
You're just enlisting the perfect against the good in service of not giving a ****.
For the record, there's a name for this.
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Old 14th May 2019, 04:14 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I would certainly eat vegan if I had the willpower. I don't know anything about raising kids that way, but it's irrelevant in my case. For regular adults, like me, it seems to have genuine benefits. Also, I'm the sort of person who does get periodically guilty about my carnivorousness.

A few weeks ago, for example, I was in the grocery store standing by the deli counter, and I glanced over at the seafood side. All these, like, partial, gutted-open fish, that were still very obviously fish, were all laid out there, in neat lines, for people to select. Next to them were some kind of shrimpy crab things, and they weren't even gutted or anything. They were just chilling there, intact, but motionless (obviously). The lobster tank was nearby - I couldn't even handle it at that point. All of a sudden, it was like I was in a science fiction movie. It seemed horrible and twisted. (This might sound melodramatic, but stuff like it happens to me all day, about various things. I don't mean it in a dramatic way. It was extremely affecting, though, and has led to subsequent introspection.)

I'm weak, though. Weak, weak. I'm also a picky eater (funny about textures), and I despise change. Excuses, excuses, etc.
You are not alone. Probably every time I pick up a steak in the supermarket, which is fairly often. Then I think about the environmental impact of cattle farming for a bit. Then I think of something else.

Fully engineered proteins cant come soon enough.
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Old 14th May 2019, 06:29 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
I'm more with JoeMorgue on this. People introduce themselves as a vegan, they will say "I am a vegan", for many people it is part of their identity rather than just a statement about what they will eat.
That's certainly the common stereotype, but for my part I don't find it comes up except in conversations about food, nutrition, or what to have for dinner. If you've invited someone to dinner and they're vegan, you need to know that. But I've never had someone tell me they're vegan out of the blue for no reason.

Anecdotal, but there it is.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:13 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I would certainly eat vegan if I had the willpower. I don't know anything about raising kids that way, but it's irrelevant in my case. For regular adults, like me, it seems to have genuine benefits. Also, I'm the sort of person who does get periodically guilty about my carnivorousness.

A few weeks ago, for example, I was in the grocery store standing by the deli counter, and I glanced over at the seafood side. All these, like, partial, gutted-open fish, that were still very obviously fish, were all laid out there, in neat lines, for people to select. Next to them were some kind of shrimpy crab things, and they weren't even gutted or anything. They were just chilling there, intact, but motionless (obviously). The lobster tank was nearby - I couldn't even handle it at that point. All of a sudden, it was like I was in a science fiction movie. It seemed horrible and twisted. (This might sound melodramatic, but stuff like it happens to me all day, about various things. I don't mean it in a dramatic way. It was extremely affecting, though, and has led to subsequent introspection.)

I'm weak, though. Weak, weak. I'm also a picky eater (funny about textures), and I despise change. Excuses, excuses, etc.
I can walk past every cut of beef straight to the chicken nuggets and brats, other types of fancy sausage type stuff all have appeal. Mostly because I am not a cook by choice. I love prepared heat and eat stuff.

Mexico is blessed with cheap seafood and I like the clam type critters and calamar when done right. But whatever you want its in the markets from little sharks to spiny shelled critters. I don't have a clue on how to prepare any of it.

Nobody feels guilty about any of it. It is food. Maybe we should a bit but I am so bored with tough old hens nearly every day.

Don't even think about a vacation in Acapulco if you are worried for poor innocent sea creatures. You will find few places to eat that are not seafood.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:26 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I know that's your point--I'm saying it's wrong.

If animals matter, and I think they do, then it's rationally preferable to inflict as little suffering as possible upon them. And a vegan diet inflicts less suffering than typical diets, even if we stipulate terrible animal suffering in mills and threshers. It's not just that the vegan diet harms different animals, but fewer animals. There may be other diets that do similarly, but a vegan diet is at least among the rationally preferable diets.
Well since several species of farm animals can't survive in the wild then everyone going vegan would be the extinction of those species. If animals matter then we should make them go extinct? That doesn't sound very rational to me. I'd think that, if one considers current farming practices to inflict too much suffering, it would be more rational to implement farming practices that don't inflict (as much) suffering rather than going vegan and basically trying to make them all go extinct.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:29 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Olmstead View Post
What do you mean? I do consider it a sound rationale in other circumstances as well, I think. Can you give an example?
Well this is going to depend on your definition of "suffering" and what is or isn't "necessary" but basically anything we do creates animal suffering in some form or another, from destruction of eco-systems due to resource extraction (wood cutting, mining, ...) to putting CO2 in the atmosphere.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:42 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
I can walk past every cut of beef straight to the chicken nuggets and brats, other types of fancy sausage type stuff all have appeal. Mostly because I am not a cook by choice. I love prepared heat and eat stuff.

Mexico is blessed with cheap seafood and I like the clam type critters and calamar when done right. But whatever you want its in the markets from little sharks to spiny shelled critters. I don't have a clue on how to prepare any of it.

Nobody feels guilty about any of it. It is food. Maybe we should a bit but I am so bored with tough old hens nearly every day.

Don't even think about a vacation in Acapulco if you are worried for poor innocent sea creatures. You will find few places to eat that are not seafood.
It's not that I walk around perpetually worried. As I said in an earlier post, I eat meat, fish, eggs, milk, all of it. That day in the store, it was more like having some kind of sudden reaction to thinking about a "meat market" objectively. Things like that happen from time to time, and with thoughts about factory farming and the whole lot of it. It's sort of hard to explain. If what you got out of my post is that I'm a hippy fretting about innocent sea creatures, then I guess I didn't convey my point very well. Which is fine, because it was pretty abstract.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:49 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
Well since several species of farm animals can't survive in the wild then everyone going vegan would be the extinction of those species.
Species cannot make moral claims upon us. This is about as morally interesting as steam engines vanishing.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:58 PM   #116
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Not at all my impression of you. I probably should care more to be honest.

But no way one gringo is going to change centuries of culture in Mexico.

The world is a great big meat market. We eat nearly everything out there somewhere.
And frankly some of it is horrendous to me also. I had a plate served to me with an eye on it. That was gross at best. The rest of Lambchop was quite tasty however.

We all have our limits where good taste ends..
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:06 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I would certainly eat vegan if I had the willpower. I don't know anything about raising kids that way, but it's irrelevant in my case. For regular adults, like me, it seems to have genuine benefits. Also, I'm the sort of person who does get periodically guilty about my carnivorousness.

A few weeks ago, for example, I was in the grocery store standing by the deli counter, and I glanced over at the seafood side. All these, like, partial, gutted-open fish, that were still very obviously fish, were all laid out there, in neat lines, for people to select. Next to them were some kind of shrimpy crab things, and they weren't even gutted or anything. They were just chilling there, intact, but motionless (obviously). The lobster tank was nearby - I couldn't even handle it at that point. All of a sudden, it was like I was in a science fiction movie. It seemed horrible and twisted. (This might sound melodramatic, but stuff like it happens to me all day, about various things. I don't mean it in a dramatic way. It was extremely affecting, though, and has led to subsequent introspection.)

I'm weak, though. Weak, weak. I'm also a picky eater (funny about textures), and I despise change. Excuses, excuses, etc.
There's a Uwajimaya store down the street that has a couple tanks of horrendously looking animal cruelty. The crabs and lobsters are piled on top of each other 2 feet deep in each of their tanks and the fish are barely able to move in their crowded tank.

It seems wrong to me. I don't buy any of those. But they have beef from a humane treatment of animals farm and I do buy that.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:10 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by 8enotto View Post
Not at all my impression of you. I probably should care more to be honest.

But no way one gringo is going to change centuries of culture in Mexico.

The world is a great big meat market. We eat nearly everything out there somewhere.
And frankly some of it is horrendous to me also. I had a plate served to me with an eye on it. That was gross at best. The rest of Lambchop was quite tasty however.

We all have our limits where good taste ends..
My issue with the treatment of animals in Mexico isn't about the food animals. It's the starving horses, donkeys and dogs that bother me. But I think they need to feed people first so I don't hold it against anyone.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:15 PM   #119
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I think I feel the most like a hypocrite when I try to imagine killing and preparing my own well-treated food. I just couldn't do it. I look at little lambs and cows and chickens and stuff, and I say, "There is absolutely no way I could chop your head off and make you for dinner." If I tried to raise an animal for later slaughter, it just wouldn't happen. I'd name it, and that would be that. I might pretend I was eventually going to do it, but I'd never do it. So I'm a hypocrite.

The other one that makes me get all psyched out is thinking about pets. All those gutted fish laid out at the grocery store, and I once had a fish that I cried when it died. The world is insane.
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:21 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I think I feel the most like a hypocrite when I try to imagine killing and preparing my own well-treated food. I just couldn't do it. I look at little lambs and cows and chickens and stuff, and I say, "There is absolutely no way I could chop your head off and make you for dinner." If I tried to raise an animal for later slaughter, it just wouldn't happen. I'd name it, and that would be that. I might pretend I was eventually going to do it, but I'd never do it. So I'm a hypocrite.

The other one that makes me get all psyched out is thinking about pets. All those gutted fish laid out at the grocery store, and I once had a fish that I cried when it died. The world is insane.
I shot a wild goat. We gutted, cooked and ate it. It was delicious. And I still have the most beautiful long-haired angora goat hide that I paid to have tanned.

But I will never shoot and kill an animal again (unless I have to).

I do not feel like a hypocrite eating meat. But I do try to eat humanely raised animals even when it costs more.
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