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Old 11th May 2019, 02:23 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
BBC

Why did the BBC sack him for this?

Oh, because it must have been racist. It must have been. When Danny Baker heard that it was how the tweet was interpreted, said that he didn't mean it that way because he doesn't have a diseased mind. Cue a lot of outrage that those who complained must have diseased minds.
Well, yes, Black people who perceive themselves as appearing more non-human primate-like compared to other races might take offense when a seemingly explicit comparison is made. No doubt the fiasco with Google Images returning 'inaccurate' results when users searched for pictures of apes or monkeys did nothing to help their self-esteem in this regard. So, yeah, it sort of could be interpreted as racist by some. It could also be interpreted as saying that new royal baby is ugly. Either way, it's probably inappropriate.

Quote:
The tweet appears here in an article that asserts that intent is not the only thing that matters. (i.e it doesn't matter if he was being deliberately racist)

So, since then, Baker has apologized profusely, but that's no good.
Hasn't everybody learned by now that you never apologize because somebody was offended?

Quote:
By apologizing, you put blood in the water, and now there are several editorials and talking heads saying apologizing is not enough...

What is enough?

Well, the police are on the case now investigating the possibility of hate speech.
Of course they are. Germany and Sweden have been in a heated competition to see which one can turn into a multicultural dystopia the fastest but Great Britain has really been gaining on them lately. (Brits can't stand to see Germany win at anything)

Quote:
Link

This is absurd, in my humble opinion.

First of all, it is absurd to assume that the tweet was obviously racist. Has anyone ever had any reason to consider him racist in the past?



By the way, when Charlotte Royal Baby was born, a zoo in Japan named a monkey after her. Some people in Japan complained that it was disrespectful but the zoo kept the name of the monkey.
Because the Japanese aren't pussies.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:35 PM   #42
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It does not appear Baker was sacked for being racist but rather for insulting the royals while being expendable.

Average everyday racism doesn't get you kicked off the Beeb, it gets you a regular seat on Question Time.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:40 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It does not appear Baker was sacked for being racist but rather for insulting the royals while being expendable.
If that were the case, there must be plenty of examples of the same thing happening before, but I'm struggling to think of any. People take the piss out of the Royals on the BBC all the time with impunity.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:53 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
BBC

Why did the BBC sack him for this?

Oh, because it must have been racist. It must have been. When Danny Baker heard that it was how the tweet was interpreted, said that he didn't mean it that way because he doesn't have a diseased mind. Cue a lot of outrage that those who complained must have diseased minds.

The tweet appears here in an article that asserts that intent is not the only thing that matters. (i.e it doesn't matter if he was being deliberately racist)

So, since then, Baker has apologized profusely, but that's no good. By apologizing, you put blood in the water, and now there are several editorials and talking heads saying apologizing is not enough...

What is enough?

Well, the police are on the case now investigating the possibility of hate speech.

Link

This is absurd, in my humble opinion.

First of all, it is absurd to assume that the tweet was obviously racist. Has anyone ever had any reason to consider him racist in the past?



By the way, when Charlotte Royal Baby was born, a zoo in Japan named a monkey after her. Some people in Japan complained that it was disrespectful but the zoo kept the name of the monkey.
When this whole thing happened, I just assumed he was making a joke about the performing monkeys that are our royal family.

Then after the tweet I found out that what's her name is 'mixed race' whatever that means, so that added a whole lot of shoulder chippery that wasn't warranted.

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Old 11th May 2019, 03:07 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
This.

What was the joke meant to be?
I guess the idea might have been that the whole royal family is a circus, and the couple was seeking attention?
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:30 PM   #46
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Comparing people with black skin with monkeys or other apes is one of the most common racist canard out there. It so extremely well known that essentially no one from a western country could act surprised if people interpreted this tweet as an attempt at racist humiliation.
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Old 11th May 2019, 03:43 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I guess the idea might have been that the whole royal family is a circus, and the couple was seeking attention?
If he wanted to convey his view that it was a circus he could have posted an image of a circus. He chose a chimp instead. Personally the first thing I come too think off when I see a chimp, even if dressed in clothes, is not a circus. Circus tents and clowns do however.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:09 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
It does not appear Baker was sacked for being racist but rather for insulting the royals while being expendable.
Well that's a bit more reasonable.

I
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Comparing people with black skin with monkeys or other apes is one of the most common racist canard out there.
Does the duchess of sussex have black skin? I would say somewhat darker than the average European.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:20 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
If he wanted to convey his view that it was a circus he could have posted an image of a circus. He chose a chimp instead. Personally the first thing I come too think off when I see a chimp, even if dressed in clothes, is not a circus. Circus tents and clowns do however.
I disagree, the first thing that comes to mind is the old organ grinder and his monkey, the dancing monkey that is there just to entertain.

I have said many a time to people that I wasn't going to be their performing monkey, at no point did it have anything to do with where people came from.

Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Comparing people with black skin with monkeys or other apes is one of the most common racist canard out there. It so extremely well known that essentially no one from a western country could act surprised if people interpreted this tweet as an attempt at racist humiliation.
They could be incorrect in their interpretation though.

Organ grinder and the dancing monkey is a perfect example.

I didn't even know she was 'mixed race' whatever that stupid term means, until this stuff happened.

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Old 11th May 2019, 04:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I guess the idea might have been that the whole royal family is a circus, and the couple was seeking attention?
I think the intended joke is about the fuss people make clamouring over wanting to glimpse the new royal (or celebrity or whatever) baby. It's just a baby. It looks like a baby. So here's a photo of a couple with a cute little bundle that's absurdly not a baby.

So Baker, who so far as I know has demonstrated no hint of racism in his decades on the air, has to go because he failed to think through how people could interpret what he really meant, a proportion of people won't give him the benefit of the doubt and the genie will not go back in the bottle.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:28 PM   #52
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It's PG gone mad.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:33 PM   #53
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Baker fell victim to the pitchfork mentality that is Twitter sadly. He is defitinetly not racist and no one in their right mind would post such a picture in his position knowing it to be such and knowing the backlash.
Curious though that Alan Sugar(Lord)posted a picture on twitter that received similar backlash yet he is still on the BBC https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...cup-team-tweet

BBC said
Quote:
Lord Sugar has acknowledged this was a seriously misjudged tweet, and he’s in no doubt about our view on this. It’s right he’s apologised unreservedly.
Yet Baker's apology wasnt good enough?
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:35 PM   #54
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My God the ability to be "As close to racists as possible" is like, really really important to people.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:38 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
BBC

Why did the BBC sack him for this?

Oh, because it must have been racist. It must have been. When Danny Baker heard that it was how the tweet was interpreted, said that he didn't mean it that way because he doesn't have a diseased mind. Cue a lot of outrage that those who complained must have diseased minds.

The tweet appears here in an article that asserts that intent is not the only thing that matters. (i.e it doesn't matter if he was being deliberately racist)
And that's absolutely correct. Yes, you absolutely need to take how others will perceive what you do as. Who, exactly, are you actually arguing should be immune to this? Is it that we must always forgive white men - or we must forgive when the target is a black (as defined in the US) person? Because you definitely aren't arguing this as a general principle, and pretending that this is some amazing new rule.

(I'm vaguely reminded of that comedian that had a picture of him - a white guy - giving the middle finger to a group of women and black people clearly arguing that they shouldn't be randomly attacked. His comedy show was titled "A Breath of Fresh Air", as though there were anything at all "fresh" about this.)

Quote:
So, since then, Baker has apologized profusely, but that's no good. By apologizing, you put blood in the water, and now there are several editorials and talking heads saying apologizing is not enough...
First, even he admits that he screwed up, so I don't know why you refuse to accept that. As for the people who consider it "not enough", well, yes, you can't please everyone in cases like this.

Quote:
Well, the police are on the case now investigating the possibility of hate speech.

Link

This is absurd, in my humble opinion.
I'd agree, but I know nothing about what the applicable law says here.

Quote:
First of all, it is absurd to assume that the tweet was obviously racist. Has anyone ever had any reason to consider him racist in the past?
I disagree. Even if he isn't some Richard Spencer-style Birth of a Nation character, it's entirely possible that he "let his mask slip", so to speak.

Quote:
By the way, when Charlotte Royal Baby was born, a zoo in Japan named a monkey after her. Some people in Japan complained that it was disrespectful but the zoo kept the name of the monkey.
I'm not entirely convinced that the average Japanese person is aware of the issues involved - although they should obviously change if the parents say "we find this insulting, here's why..."
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:38 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My God the ability to be "As close to racists as possible" is like, really really important to people.

That has nothing to do with this case. Danny Baker is nowhere close to being a racist.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:43 PM   #57
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Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context.


That is all.


*except for human, of course.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:54 PM   #58
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Baker's initial comments after his tweet was criticized were somewhat less of a fulsome apology than what he said later.

"Sorry my gag pic of the little fella in the posh outfit has whipped some up."

As for the police investigating, I'm pretty sure they're bound to do so if someone complains. Whether that'll result in any charges is another matter entirely; I doubt it'll come to anything.
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:58 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My God the ability to be "As close to racists as possible" is like, really really important to people.
In countries that aren't america, they might have their own meanings to do with monkeys, ie organ grinders etc that have nothing to do with american meanings.
Stop projecting.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:12 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
In countries that aren't america, they might have their own meanings to do with monkeys, ie organ grinders etc that have nothing to do with american meanings.
Stop projecting.
The BBC didn't seem to have any issues understanding the implication.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:24 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
If you are unable to recognise that a representation of a person of African heritage as a 'monkey' is not rehashing a racist stereotype then you certainly need to attend some cultural awareness classes.
Chimpanzees are not monkeys!

Just sayin'

However, even if what Baker did was not intended to have racist connotations, its still a tone-deaf piece of sheer stupidity. He deserved firing for that alone.

The hate speech investigation is OTT.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:30 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
In countries that aren't america, they might have their own meanings to do with monkeys, ie organ grinders etc that have nothing to do with american meanings.
Stop projecting.
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The BBC didn't seem to have any issues understanding the implication.
Indeed, England, the use of the term "monkey" as a pejorative for "black" is well known and well understood.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-48093032

https://www.theguardian.com/football...-investigation

https://www.eurosport.com/football/e...98/story.shtml
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:40 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

That has nothing to do with this case. Danny Baker is nowhere close to being a racist.
Assuming he's not, because that makes sense, it still was a really stupid thing to do: totally tone deaf.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:42 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In England, the use of the term "monkey" as a pejorative for "black" is well known and well understood.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-...shire-48093032

https://www.theguardian.com/football...-investigation

https://www.eurosport.com/football/e...98/story.shtml
Oh, I wasn't aware of that, I don't follow football.

Thinking about it though, Danny Baker does follow football doesn't he? in which case he should be aware of what you said. Hmm.
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Old 11th May 2019, 05:48 PM   #65
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"The very idea that using monkey/ape imagery to refer to blacks is racist just hasn't made it to the Empire from the Colonies yet" is where we're landing then?

Okay. Gotcha.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:05 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
Oh, I wasn't aware of that, I don't follow football.

Thinking about it though, Danny Baker does follow football doesn't he? in which case he should be aware of what you said. Hmm.
Baker has had a long association with Soccer. He has written several books on the subject, and is a lifelong supporter of Championship team Millwall FC
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:07 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
"The very idea that using monkey/ape imagery to refer to blacks is racist just hasn't made it to the Empire from the Colonies yet" is where we're landing then?

Okay. Gotcha.
I think you'll find it think it started in the Empire.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:24 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Make England Great Again
If only there was a word to make that into an apt acronym MEGAN....

Can’t seem to think of an appropriate N word though... anyone?
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:43 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
If only there was a word to make that into an apt acronym MEGAN....

Can’t seem to think of an appropriate N word though... anyone?
'... Nah'
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:02 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Baker has had a long association with Soccer. He has written several books on the subject, and is a lifelong supporter of Championship team Millwall FC
Salt-of-the-Earth, Millwall. Actually, they have a reputation for being one of the most racist and violent clubs - like a throwback to the 1970s:

https://www.itv.com/news/london/2019...cist-chanting/

And yes, he is into football. A big friend of Paul “Gazza” Gascoigne. Oh dear...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-37406549

Still, he says he has made this same tweet about other famous posh celebrities. If so, I think that would settle the matter and demonstrate there is no evidence of racism.

Also, as with others on this thread, I have never even thought about the ethnicity of Meghan Markle. I don’t follow the Windsor soap opera, though. It may be that for those who do, her ethnicity is her most salient attribute. Although it is a bit sad for those who see the world in such reductively racial terms.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:12 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context.


That is all.


*except for human, of course.


You'd think it needn't be said.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:41 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
My comment was directed at Baker, not you. I should have made it more clear that posting the image was a mark of stupidity. Sorry.
No problem. But really, my first reaction to the reaction was one of bemusement. It seems to me such a stretch to think that Baker was referring to the kid’s ethnicity.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:42 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post

That has nothing to do with this case. Danny Baker is nowhere close to being a racist.
And how well do you know him, exactly?

Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context.


That is all.
Sorry, they're still kinda working on "don't post Pepe in Nazi outfits grinning and shoving actual jewish people into a gas chamber", and "Don't praise real-life people who go on shooting sprees or defend people who helped spread Gamergate and told British MPs that 'I wouldn't even rape you.' yes I mean Carl Benjamin you idiotic UKIP destroyer." You're going to have to wait a bit.

Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
The BBC didn't seem to have any issues understanding the implication.
According to his own apology, neither did Danny Baker. I don't see how his apology is even worth posting if we refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt on that very apology.

Again, when you mess up, badly, you may lose your job, your marriage, and so on. And that could be true no matter how much you apologize. But this has always been true, within cultural norms. This one is, I assume, very within cultural norms. So what's the problem?

If you're arguing for a serious reexamination of how we mete out punishment, including legal punishment, that's one matter. But the idea that this is "PC actually gone mad", to paraphrase the title of this thread, is...well, actually mad. We've seen people tortured, killed, and their bodies mutilated over less. Calm down.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:46 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
And how well do you know him, exactly?



Sorry, they're still kinda working on "don't post Pepe in Nazi outfits grinning and shoving actual jewish people into a gas chamber", and "Don't praise real-life people who go on shooting sprees or defend people who helped spread Gamergate and told British MPs that 'I wouldn't even rape you.' yes I mean Carl Benjamin you idiotic UKIP destroyer." You're going to have to wait a bit.



According to his own apology, neither did Danny Baker. I don't see how his apology is even worth posting if we refuse to give him the benefit of the doubt on that very apology.

Again, when you mess up, badly, you may lose your job, your marriage, and so on. And that could be true no matter how much you apologize. But this has always been true, within cultural norms. This one is, I assume, very within cultural norms. So what's the problem?

If you're arguing for a serious reexamination of how we mete out punishment, including legal punishment, that's one matter. But the idea that this is "PC actually gone mad", to paraphrase the title of this thread, is...well, actually mad. We've seen people tortured, killed, and their bodies mutilated over less. Calm down.
True. We’ve seen people mutilated and burned because a woman called a teddy bear Mohammed. Things are not at that level here but it is an over-reaction to get the police involved is it not?
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"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:57 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
True. We’ve seen people mutilated and burned because a woman called a teddy bear Mohammed. Things are not at that level here but it is an over-reaction to get the police involved is it not?
Again, I don't know what the appropriate level here is, in England, concerning royalty. And for that matter, I don't know what "media figure" means, exactly.

In the US, this guy would land on his feet as soon as the heat died off. Could be the same for this guy. Now, if they put him on trial, under penalty of anything more than a minor (for him) fine...okay, that's worth objecting to, I'll agree. But if they come back saying "Wee looked at it, he apologized."? It's just a waste of resources on a few royals.

And really, my objection would be "Y'all still give that level of protection to Royals?" before anything else. Getting fired over saying stupid things that directly tie in to my line of work? I expect that.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:14 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context.


That is all.


*except for human, of course.
Exactly. If Baker is not racist, he is terminally stupid. He is in a position where he should have known how his tweet would be interpreted. If I worked for a company and insulted the family which ran the company, saying “I didn’t mean offence” or “I didn’t realise” wouldn’t save me from the sack.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:39 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
If that were the case, there must be plenty of examples of the same thing happening before, but I'm struggling to think of any. People take the piss out of the Royals on the BBC all the time with impunity.
And how many of those have made a clumsy tweet, easily taken as racist, right after the Palace has declared war on people spewing racism towards the new mum?

I doubt one of the Windsors' gophers even made the call. The Beeb did it on their own.
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Old 11th May 2019, 11:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
Dear people who use twitter/social media. Please stop doing the following:

A) referring to other people or their offspring as Ape/monkey/chimp/primate* like.

B) using a hangman's noose in any context**.


That is all.


*except for human, of course.
May I add

C) appearing in black face (except with cucumber slices over eyes to signal this is a mud pack as part of your beauty regimen).

** This is more of a US thing as racist lynchings did not happen in other places. The only racist lynching I can recall in England was pertinently of a monkey who was mistaken for being French.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...lepool-Monkey/
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Old 11th May 2019, 11:07 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
No problem. But really, my first reaction to the reaction was one of bemusement. It seems to me such a stretch to think that Baker was referring to the kid’s ethnicity.
People have been making a huge deal out of the fact that his mother was even partially of non-European descent. With that context it doesn't seem like a very big stretch at all.
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Last edited by Arcade22; 11th May 2019 at 11:09 PM.
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Old 11th May 2019, 11:18 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
I disagree, the first thing that comes to mind is the old organ grinder and his monkey, the dancing monkey that is there just to entertain.

I have said many a time to people that I wasn't going to be their performing monkey, at no point did it have anything to do with where people came from.
It was a chimpanzee, not a capuchin monkey.

Quote:
I didn't even know she was 'mixed race' whatever that stupid term means, until this stuff happened.
Then you haven't been paying attention. I'm pretty sure the only way someone working at the BBC could've avoided knowing this would've been if they just woke up out of a coma.
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