ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 15th May 2019, 05:17 AM   #201
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,245
I've heard worse jokes about the royals on Have I Got News For You, so I don't really understand the backlash against Baker. It's not even like Baker has a major role on the network. They ditched Johnathon Ross for his prank phone-call, now Baker for a mild joke about a baby we're all supposed to be thankful for because it's royalty.

Couldn't get shut of all of the pedophiles, though, could they? lol.
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 05:23 AM   #202
Gilbert Syndrome
Philosopher
 
Gilbert Syndrome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Liverpool, UK
Posts: 6,245
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another vote that 'could be interpreted as racist' does not at all mean 'reflects racism'.

Like the nooses in the news, sometimes the racist connotations are not seen by the user. I didn't know that she was part black. Actually, I think I heard it early on but just don't care enough to think of it when she is mentioned. This guy likes the imagery of royalty being dressed chimps, I take it, and uses it frequently? So why would time this be any different? Seems the offense is in the observers' minds, not the 'offender's. Sin being in intent and all.
Tbh, I've only just heard about the racial aspect, and again, I can't say that I see it. Is the baby even black? Looks whiter than I do.

Danny Baker is never a racist, lol, a daft sod, maybe, but a racist? Nah. We all know the Queen loves a bit of Jim Davidson, though, now he is a racist, did the BBC sack him?
__________________
Generic proclamation of positivity:

Scouse saying - Go 'ed, is right, nice one, boss, well in, sound, belter, made up.

Usage: 'Go 'ed, lad, get us an ale in, nice one.'
Gilbert Syndrome is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 05:24 AM   #203
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 40,353
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Another vote that 'could be interpreted as racist' does not at all mean 'reflects racism'.

Like the nooses in the news, sometimes the racist connotations are not seen by the user. I didn't know that she was part black. Actually, I think I heard it early on but just don't care enough to think of it when she is mentioned. This guy likes the imagery of royalty being dressed chimps, I take it, and uses it frequently? So why would time this be any different? Seems the offense is in the observers' minds, not the 'offender's. Sin being in intent and all.
Strictly speaking, it's not just royalty but "The Posh" who he lampoons (or has in the past) with that particular image.

I don't think America has* a similar class divide as the UK. While it's more relaxed now, you'd never have heard of a "shopkeeper class", even informally, in the US. Of course, we have our own groupings, but the concept of "class" is usually just Upper, Middle and Lower. We have groups that get their targeting at various times, but they come and go. When was the last time anyone ever used "preppie" or "yuppie"? Not in my recent memory.

*Nor ever really had. The upper crust made a concerted effort to do so, but through most of history Americans looked on in bemusement at the coming out parties and the spring cotillion.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 07:08 AM   #204
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 34,000
We had a thread recently in which it was demonstrated that class in the UK is not about money.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 04:54 PM   #205
Dani
Master Poster
 
Dani's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sometimes
Posts: 2,081
So is it now established that racism lies on the eye of the outraged?

So, if something is often or sometimes used as a racial slur, but not necessarily always, there can be no context, nor plausible intention from the part of the perpetrator that can allow us to consider alternative hypotheses?
Dani is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 05:02 PM   #206
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Dani View Post
So is it now established that racism lies on the eye of the outraged?

So, if something is often or sometimes used as a racial slur, but not necessarily always, there can be no context, nor plausible intention from the part of the perpetrator that can allow us to consider alternative hypotheses?
It all depends on how far you are prepared to bend over backwards.

For me, I can’t accept that someone who works in the media would be unaware that:

A) Markel was of mixed race
B) Depicting a baby of hers as a monkey is highly offensive

Guess what? This is not just my outraged, pearl clutching opinion. It is shared by his employer.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill

Last edited by lionking; 15th May 2019 at 05:04 PM.
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 05:23 PM   #207
p0lka
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,371
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
We had a thread recently in which it was demonstrated that class in the UK is not about money.
Indeed. For example, people who watch jeremy kyle are in a class of their own.
p0lka is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 07:19 PM   #208
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
 
bruto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Way way north of Diddy Wah Diddy
Posts: 23,895
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It all depends on how far you are prepared to bend over backwards.

For me, I can’t accept that someone who works in the media would be unaware that:

A) Markel was of mixed race
B) Depicting a baby of hers as a monkey is highly offensive

Guess what? This is not just my outraged, pearl clutching opinion. It is shared by his employer.
I tend to agree, and to remember that this is not a simple free speech issue, but one of the degree to which the BBC as an employer should bend to accommodate an utterance that can be seen as very bad public relations. Sure, they could bend over backwards, but it's up to them to decide what this particular employee is worth to them.

It is of course possible that Baker was just really careless and stupid and his mistake was not meant to be as offensive as it turned out to be, but it was still a mistake (and even if not racist it was meant to cause offense), and one that they have to weigh carefully, not only for the harm it does to them, but for the possibility that similar lapses of judgment will happen again.
__________________
I love this world, but not for its answers. (Mary Oliver)

Quand il dit "cuic" le moineau croit tout dire. (When he's tweeted the sparrow thinks he's said it all. (Jules Renard)

Last edited by bruto; 15th May 2019 at 07:20 PM.
bruto is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 07:26 PM   #209
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,584
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It all depends on how far you are prepared to bend over backwards.

For me, I canít accept that someone who works in the media would be unaware that:

A) Markel was of mixed race
B) Depicting a baby of hers as a monkey is highly offensive

Guess what? This is not just my outraged, pearl clutching opinion. It is shared by his employer.
You don't know what his employer thinks. All you know is that they sacked him, whether it was for being racist, or just stupid, is not known.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 07:31 PM   #210
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You don't know what his employer thinks. All you know is that they sacked him, whether it was for being racist, or just stupid, is not known.
Doesnít really matter. I said earlier that if it wasnít a racist act (I suspect it was) his idiocy alone was worth dismissal.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 07:48 PM   #211
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,584
I am not disagreeing with you, just correcting you.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 15th May 2019, 08:16 PM   #212
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
I am not disagreeing with you, just correcting you.
Fair enough.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 03:15 AM   #213
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,204
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
It all depends on how far you are prepared to bend over backwards.

For me, I can’t accept that someone who works in the media would be unaware that:

A) Markel was of mixed race
B) Depicting a baby of hers as a monkey is highly offensive

Guess what? This is not just my outraged, pearl clutching opinion. It is shared by his employer.
What you can or can't accept isn't proof. Do don't know what other people do or do not know.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 16th May 2019 at 03:16 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 08:44 AM   #214
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,525
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
What you can or can't accept isn't proof. Do don't know what other people do or do not know.
Additionally, someone's racial background is usually unimportant and frequently forgotten, if it makes it to long-term memory at all. Picturing the 'posh' as chimps is probably meant as mockery, if not offense, but again: if you are not obsessed with race you might not make the connection right off. Like a noose, the primary association is mostly in your own head.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 02:04 PM   #215
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Additionally, someone's racial background is usually unimportant and frequently forgotten, if it makes it to long-term memory at all. Picturing the 'posh' as chimps is probably meant as mockery, if not offense, but again: if you are not obsessed with race you might not make the connection right off. Like a noose, the primary association is mostly in your own head.
Yet his employer saw the association immediately and sacked him. Itís not just in the heads of a few Internet posters.

At the very least you will have to concede that Baker had an abysmal appreciation of his employerís attitudes. I know the lines that need to be crossed in incur the wrath of my employer. I avoid them.

Baker realised this eventually, and thus his quick moves to remove the tweet. Why did he remove the tweet if it was as innocent as some here maintain? He saw his fatal mistake. Donít post stuff that can cause hurt or face the consequences.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 02:05 PM   #216
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 43,788
Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well, I didn't know the lady was part black, but then I don't follow the royal family. I have, however, in the past used apes to represent white people whom I didn't like. So if no one had mentioned that it wouldn't have crossed my mind, and I would've agreed with Soba on the issue.

Now, assuming the artist knew about that, that sounds pretty racist, yeah.
Surprising, given how much media attention that has gotten..at least in the US and apparently the UK.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 02:14 PM   #217
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,584
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yet his employer saw the association immediately and sacked him. Itís not just in the heads of a few Internet posters.

At the very least you will have to concede that Baker had an abysmal appreciation of his employerís attitudes. I know the lines that need to be crossed in incur the wrath of my employer. I avoid them.

Baker realised this eventually, and thus his quick moves to remove the tweet. Why did he remove the tweet if it was as innocent as some here maintain? He saw his fatal mistake. Donít post stuff that can cause hurt or face the consequences.
You're really not telling us anything that Baker hasn't told us already.

Have you looked at his Twitter feed?
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 07:02 PM   #218
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
You're really not telling us anything that Baker hasn't told us already.

Have you looked at his Twitter feed?
I was referring to Thermalís and others ďhe did nothingĒ posts.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 07:35 PM   #219
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,525
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yet his employer saw the association immediately and sacked him. Itís not just in the heads of a few Internet posters.
Oh, agreed. As the OP title suggests, it seems that half the world has lost its collective mind and gotten comically hypersensitive to offending.

Quote:
At the very least you will have to concede that Baker had an abysmal appreciation of his employerís attitudes. I know the lines that need to be crossed in incur the wrath of my employer. I avoid them.
Sort of agreed, yes. Baker would have had to have been aware that the caricature would be taken as racially offensive to realize he was crossing his employer, though, no? My argument, as others have argued, is that he seems a pretty flippant dude and it quite likely did not occur to him that he was being racially offensive.

Quote:
Baker realised this eventually, and thus his quick moves to remove the tweet. Why did he remove the tweet if it was as innocent as some here maintain? He saw his fatal mistake. Donít post stuff that can cause hurt or face the consequences.
As I see it, he realized it was being taken as a racial slight after the fact, and meaning no harm (at least in that way), he pulled it post haste. However innocently it was intended, it clearly wasn't going over that way, and not wishing to offend, he yanked it. But you see this as a guilty deletion, I take it? Doesn't this cat have a history of anti-racism and mocking hoity-toidys? Something about him having a running bit about monkeys? (I don't follow him so I simply don't know)
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 07:48 PM   #220
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 20,565
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Oh, agreed. As the OP title suggests, it seems that half the world has lost its collective mind and gotten comically hypersensitive to offending.



Sort of agreed, yes. Baker would have had to have been aware that the caricature would be taken as racially offensive to realize he was crossing his employer, though, no? My argument, as others have argued, is that he seems a pretty flippant dude and it quite likely did not occur to him that he was being racially offensive.



As I see it, he realized it was being taken as a racial slight after the fact, and meaning no harm (at least in that way), he pulled it post haste. However innocently it was intended, it clearly wasn't going over that way, and not wishing to offend, he yanked it. But you see this as a guilty deletion, I take it? Doesn't this cat have a history of anti-racism and mocking hoity-toidys? Something about him having a running bit about monkeys? (I don't follow him so I simply don't know)
PC gone mad world means you cant compare dark skinned people to apes. Everyone is just looking for offence in the slightest thing these days. In my day we could call a ****** a ******* and a **** a **** and no one took offence.
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman

Last edited by Sideroxylon; 16th May 2019 at 07:50 PM.
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 08:05 PM   #221
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,525
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
PC gone mad world means you cant compare dark skinned people to apes. Everyone is just looking for offence in the slightest thing these days. In my day we could call a ****** a ******* and a **** a **** and no one took offence.
But why can't you compare people of any skin tone to a monkey? The comparison is based on being less than intelligent, etc. If you say that it is cutting too close to the bone to use such a slam against dark-skinned people, well...what exactly are you saying?
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 16th May 2019, 10:32 PM   #222
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 20,565
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
But why can't you compare people of any skin tone to a monkey? The comparison is based on being less than intelligent, etc. If you say that it is cutting too close to the bone to use such a slam against dark-skinned people, well...what exactly are you saying?
Too close to the bone? WTF?
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 01:07 AM   #223
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 4,530
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I was referring to Thermalís and others ďhe did nothingĒ posts.
I'm not sure there's many people on here who think he did nothing.

As I said earlier, he essentially opened his gob without thinking things through.

Baker didn't need to know about the BBC's likely response to this as, in his head, he'd done this before for other "celebs" (for want of a better term) and it hadn't caused an issue.

Hence his first tweet which essentially said the thought never crossed his mind (though rather less polite than that).
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 01:46 AM   #224
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,119
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Surprising, given how much media attention that has gotten..at least in the US and apparently the UK.
Not really if you skim past royal bs "news" articles.

The U.K Royals are some of the biggest dole bludgers in the world.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 01:54 AM   #225
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,460
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Surprising, given how much media attention that has gotten..at least in the US and apparently the UK.
I think a lot of Americans really do underestimate how many of us Brits really, really, really don't care about the royal family.

All those people waving plastic flags while Madge waves from her carriage - that's not all of us. Lots and lots of us have better things to do.

This extends to not actually ever reading anything about the windsors ever.


I promise you that more Brits than you imagine didn't know.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 02:03 AM   #226
Matthew Best
Philosopher
 
Matthew Best's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Leicester Square, London
Posts: 6,584
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I was referring to Thermalís and others ďhe did nothingĒ posts.
That's not really an answer.
Matthew Best is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 02:30 AM   #227
Hungry81
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,119
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I think a lot of Americans really do underestimate how many of us Brits really, really, really don't care about the royal family.



All those people waving plastic flags while Madge waves from her carriage - that's not all of us. Lots and lots of us have better things to do.



This extends to not actually ever reading anything about the windsors ever.





I promise you that more Brits than you imagine didn't know.
But.... but..... you're British!1!!!!1!1111
You must know all about the Royals, you must love them and worship them, and read and believe all the "news" article published about them, Even the bits that contradict the other bits!*


*Apologies to the simpsons.

Last edited by Hungry81; 17th May 2019 at 02:33 AM.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 02:56 AM   #228
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,961
I've been a fan of Danny's since the 6-oh-6 days and have been on the forum attached to an archive of work for slightly longer than I've been here (and I've been here a long time). I saw the tweet when it went up and posted this reaction when it was taken down.

Quote:
He's deleted the completely inappropriate "Royal Baby" photo he tweeted. TFFT
His initial response was typically defiant and, again, ill-judged, though to a much lesser degree. The considered apology two(?) days later was much more sincere.

On the Sunday, we went to this, the first performance of his one-man show following the posting of the photo. I know I'm biased, but that's a fair review; the one in the Mail less so. He was contrite at the start, didn't trivialise what had happened, but was able to laugh at the reaction to it. People incapable of accepting a sincere apology because of their agendas is funny, it certainly is when I catch myself doing it.
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 03:04 AM   #229
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,961
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
OK, probably a few things need pointing out for The Outragedô.

Firstly, although I find him about as funny as having your leg amputated without anaesthetic, Baker has in the past been very pointedly and directly anti-racist. When a BNP (i.e. extreme right-wing) councillor got elected where he lives, he said something on-air along the lines of, "Here are all the good things he [the candidate] has said or done," and followed it with 30 seconds of dead air.

Secondly, Baker has said that he tends to Tweet that exact same photograph - of two "posh" people with a chimp - every time he hears that someone royal, rich, posh, or famous has produced a child. Now, I don't know if that is true, or if anyone has checked/tabulated it, but I doubt he'd claim it, if he hadn't at least posted it a few times previously.

Thirdly, and I'm sure a lot of people may find this surprising, but awareness of the Duchess Formerly Known as Meghan Markle being what would be termed mixed race here is simply nowhere near as high in the UK as it is elsewhere, and especially in the United States. It seems like the American media feels the need to mention it in every other story, but the UK media just hasn't and doesn't. I think it's entirely possible that Baker wasn't aware of the fact, and so it never occurred to him that the photo might be interpreted in a way his previous uses of it wouldn't have been. I certainly think that there will be a lot of people in the country who have been surprised by this story, simply because they weren't aware of her heritage, either. As it happens, he's also said that he wasn't actually aware that it was Meghan and Harry specifically who had had a child, because he's not a Royalist.

Depicting a child - any child - as a monkey is not exactly an obscure or rare thing in the UK, and parents and other adults will frequently refers to troublesome offspring as a "cheeky monkey/s"; in fact, it was used in exactly that context in a Peppa Pig DVD Miss Analyst was watching earlier today (several times). Mrs Analyst habitually refers to her younger sister by her childhood nickname of "Monkey."
I believe this to be an entirely accurate reflection of the situation. He has used that photo before
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 04:28 AM   #230
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
I believe this to be an entirely accurate reflection of the situation. He has used that photo before
Sort of. Iím well aware of the ďcheeky monkeyĒ usage, and may well have used the term in the past. I keep on coming back to this. Someone in the position of Baker should have been very aware of the interpretation of this photo in this age. Insulting someone unintentionally is still insulting them. And people who do so will suffer the consequences.

Know what? In Australia the n word was commonly used as a nickname for (darkish) white people, was used in brand names (absolutely true) and until 2008 featured in the name of a Queensland grandstand. So we Aussies will be allowed to use the n word in the US because in the past it wasnít that big a deal?

A rhetorical question, of course. Everyone knows the consequences of doing so, sacking being the least of them.

And I will stand by my call that referring to a human as a monkey or ape is equivalent of using the n word.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 04:33 AM   #231
3point14
Pi
 
3point14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 17,460
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
And I will stand by my call that referring to a human as a monkey or ape is equivalent of using the n word.

I disagree. I think that's a poor call. I was called a monkey in my childhood, as have tens of millions of others, with no hint or trace of racism. I climbed on 'money bars' and saw 'monkey puzzle trees', and played that game, the one with lots of monkeys that all link together. My life has been filled with non-racist monkey references.

Just because the word is used by racists, it doesn't mean every usage of it is racist. The whole 'nobody can use words racists use' puts an unacceptable amount of power over language in the hands of people who are racist. I refuse to cede to the racist side of the world, language and metaphor that have been used with zero connotation for literally decades.

We really do need some set theory around here.
__________________
Up the River!

Anyone that wraps themselves in the Union Flag and also lives in tax exile is a [redacted]

Last edited by 3point14; 17th May 2019 at 04:36 AM.
3point14 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 04:42 AM   #232
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I disagree. I think that's a poor call. I' was called a monkey in my childhood, as have tens of millions of others, with no hint or trace of racism.

Just because the word is used by racists, it doesn't mean every usage of it is racist. The whole 'nobody can use words racists use' puts an unacceptable amount of power over language in the hands of people who are racist. I refuse to cede to the racist side of the world, language and metaphor that have been used with zero connotation for literally decades.

We really do need some set theory around here.
Okay. Maybe itís because there have been some well publicised events of people calling aboriginal people apes in recent times (Adam Goodes the most notable) that leaves me more triggered (ha, a good TBD word..). But maybe not. Word usage changes. The n word canít be used in any context anymore. I am prepared to proclaim that using monkey and ape publicly when referring to a human being has reached the same level
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:37 AM   #233
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,204
Funnily enough, after our weekly swimming session, I wheeled Miss Analyst into the local Sainsbury's supermarket, and noted that the relatively small display of Father's Day cards included two with chimps on, and one with a gorilla.

I don't see innocent use of ape imagery ending any time soon.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 17th May 2019 at 05:44 AM.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:37 AM   #234
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,525
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Okay. Maybe it’s because there have been some well publicised events of people calling aboriginal people apes in recent times (Adam Goodes the most notable) that leaves me more triggered (ha, a good TBD word..). But maybe not. Word usage changes. The n word can’t be used in any context anymore.
Most of American culture would disagree. With the soft 'ah' ending, anyway.

Quote:
I am prepared to proclaim that using monkey and ape publicly when referring to a human being has reached the same level
That is the point of the OP title, I think.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:39 AM   #235
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Funnily enough, after our weekly swimming session, I wheeled Miss Analyst into the local Sainsbury's supermarket, and noted that the relatively small display of Father's Day cards included two with chimps on, and one with a gorilla.
Proving something I imagine, but I donít know what.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:43 AM   #236
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 42,476
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Insulting someone unintentionally is still insulting them. And people who do so will suffer the consequences.
Which is pretty much what happened. It doesn't mean that Baker is a racist.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:45 AM   #237
lionking
In the Peanut Gallery
 
lionking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 43,525
Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Which is pretty much what happened. It doesn't mean that Baker is a racist.
I never said he was. I think itís likely, but he may just be an idiot.
__________________
A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.

Sir Winston Churchill
lionking is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:46 AM   #238
Information Analyst
Philosopher
 
Information Analyst's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Besźel or Ul Qoma - not sure...
Posts: 9,204
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Proving something I imagine, but I don’t know what.
That people do not automatically equate ape imagery or references with racism, even in a London Brough where 32% of the population is either Black or Black Mixed.
Information Analyst is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:49 AM   #239
Thermal
Philosopher
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: NJ USA. We Don't Like You Either
Posts: 7,525
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
Too close to the bone? WTF?
Exactly. Outrage over such a common thing carries an implication on your part that there is something...different...about applying it to a POC. Using the term for a whitey is okay, but for someone...black??? Shhhhh...you can't call attention to that.

Seriously. That's what the objection comes across as.
__________________
"Half of what he said meant something else, and the other half didn't mean anything at all" -Rosencrantz, on Hamlet
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th May 2019, 05:52 AM   #240
zooterkin
Nitpicking dilettante
Deputy Admin
 
zooterkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Berkshire, mostly
Posts: 42,476
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I never said he was. I think itís likely, but he may just be an idiot.
You pretty much did say you thought he was racist.

Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Doesnít really matter. I said earlier that if it wasnít a racist act (I suspect it was) his idiocy alone was worth dismissal.
__________________
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.Bertrand Russell
Zooterkin is correct Darat
Nerd! Hokulele
Join the JREF Folders ! Team 13232
Ezekiel 23:20
zooterkin is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:37 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.