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12th January 2013, 08:49 PM | #561 |
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12th January 2013, 10:09 PM | #562 |
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The Australian Family Association's John Morrissey was aghast when he learned Jessica Watson was bidding to become the youngest person to sail round the world alone, unaided and without stopping. |
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13th January 2013, 07:55 AM | #563 |
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13th January 2013, 08:25 AM | #564 |
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13th January 2013, 10:00 AM | #565 |
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13th January 2013, 10:21 AM | #566 |
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It is indeed a mystery. It can't be because the director is too liberal, since they wouldn't confirm anyone Bush appointed either. It can't be because of concerns about the nominee in particular, since they won't confirm any nominee no matter who it is. They just don't want the agency to function. Which function of the agency are they against? None of them are against the drug war, so it's not about interdicting illegal drugs. That just leaves firearms. The GOP does not want an effective agency policing firearm sales.
But thanks for admitting that the NRA is merely a lobbying arm of the gun industry. |
13th January 2013, 10:35 AM | #567 |
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Assuming facts not in evidence.
ATF hasn't been effective as a whole ever. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/fo...9/crm01436.htm 1436 Discovery Issues—National Firearms and Registration Transfer Record—National Firearms Act On January 30, 1996, ATF informed the Criminal Division of their planned disclosure in response to a FOIA request of statements made at an ATF training session by the chief of the National Firearms Branch concerning an alleged 50% error rate in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR). On February 16, 1996, both a full explanation of those statements in an explanatory information package, and suggested disclosure materials, were distributed to all United States Attorneys' offices. The Criminal Division advises that disclosure of this material in newly filed affected National Firearms Act cases is necessary until a revamping of the NFRTR is completed, which may not occur until sometime in late 1997 or early 1998. Guidance and copies of the disclosure package can be obtained from the Terrorism and Violent Crime Section (TVCS) of the Criminal Division. The above has never been completed: 2010, ATF Deputy Director responds to citizen concerns about the legal validity of NFRTR evidence On June 8, 2010, a citizen wrote to ATF Deputy Director Kenneth Melson, citing testimony by an Expert Witness in a 2009 criminal case "that NFRTR data were useful for exploratory purposes, but could not be used for prosecution unless the data could be independently verified," and expressed concerns about the legal validity of ATF routinely using evidence from NFRTR lookups "to justify issuing search warrants, filing criminal charges, and other law enforcement activities." On June 9, 2010, Deputy Director Melson responded: "I will make sure we look into this." To read a copy of the e-mail message and the response, click here. In a letter dated August 30, 2010, Arthur Herbert, Assistant Director, Office of Enforcement Programs and Services, discussed the concerns by failing to acknowledge firearm registration and/or transfer documents are missing from ATF's version of the NFRTR (click here to read it). He states: "The inspection records upon which you based your conclusions are worksheets prepared by ATF investigators to note potential discrepancies in the NFRTR. The inspection inventory worksheets generated by investigators are merely the preliminary tools used by ATF for inventory reconciliation. They are not a record of the final outcome of NFRTR and application archive research or final inventory reconciliation." This answer is incorrect, uninformative, and misleading. Put another way, Mr. Herbert is saying "you have incorrectly concluded the NFRTR has missing records, because ATF has not had the opportunity to add the missing records its investigators discovered back into the NFRTR yet." Mr. Herbert further states: " . . . the NFRTR cannot possibly reflect transactions that have not been reported to ATF . . . ". Mr. Herbert clearly has no idea of how transfer documents work. Countless transfers to dealers from dealers and from individuals have been approved, but are not in the NFRTR compliance record brought to the dealers on inspections. Every one of these transfers was reported to ATF by appropriate transfer forms, were approved and returned and then the NFA firearm or device was transferred in compliance, yet ATF will not have records of them during inspections. The dealers are then required to prove to ATF that the approved transfers exist and that the NFA firearm or device was appropriately transferred out or in or wherever. It is not possible to not report a transfer to ATF and then transfer an NFA item. No one ever does this. |
13th January 2013, 10:49 AM | #568 |
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13th January 2013, 11:43 AM | #569 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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13th January 2013, 02:12 PM | #570 |
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I wonder if anyone has commented on the Huffington Post/Yougov poll indicating 55% support for a ban on semiautomatics (Times Article today), although it doesn't indicate the date and it doesn't say how many people were asked.
In a related article: http://news.yahoo.com/most-back-ban-...-politics.html However, the poll only asked 602 people at random across two days, especially in the heated aftermath of the Sandy Hook Massacre. Were the poll asked now, the results would undoubtedly be different. |
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13th January 2013, 05:15 PM | #571 |
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No, it's a refutation of the assertion that ATF is an effective agency, director or no director.
The one single comprehensive list of firearms and their owners (and a subset of less than 1% of firearms held by civilians) is so ********** up by the agency in charge of same that at best it's a 50/50 crapshoot for accuracy, and in my first hand experience even that might be optimistic on their part. |
13th January 2013, 05:17 PM | #572 |
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13th January 2013, 05:24 PM | #573 |
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He already explained that...
The function of BATFE used to be handled by the FBI. After the charles foxtrot that was Fast'n Furious, I've proposed restoring that arrangement and disbanding BATFE entirely. |
13th January 2013, 05:24 PM | #574 |
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And the public disclosure (individuals in the trade knew long before) of their failure to maintain the records they were mandated by law to have complete took place in '96 - what was their excuse then? (hint - temporary workers deep-sixed registration files rather than filing them properly - one step away from the dog eating them)
ATF has been a bastard child of Justice, and for all the good agents employed by the agency, they've had leadership at the mid level up that really weren't enforcement officers before, and that lead to bad management decisions across the board, long before the directors seat became the hot seat. |
13th January 2013, 05:33 PM | #575 |
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I don't feel he has. The idea that a dysfunctional organization should be disbanded because of bad leadership is ridiculous. Should we have disbanded the USA because Bush ran it into the ground? Or would it be a little more reasonable to simply replace him with someone better?
That could be true, it could be spin, it could be somewhere in between, but it doesn't answer my question. How can you expect issues to be resolved if you refuse to appoint someone to do the job of resolving issues? Is it your contention that an agency tasked only with policing guns cannot work as a matter of course? Or do you have concrete proposals to make it work better? I'm sure that if you had a list of reforms and presented them to the BATF director he'd...oops. Nevermind. |
13th January 2013, 05:47 PM | #576 |
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A attorney who has much more time in this issue did exactly that - with zero results.
Here's his testimony to congress, 1999 http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/lars...9_congress.txt Mr. Chairman and Members of the Subcommittee: My name is Eric M. Larson. I am submitting this testimony to you in my capacity as a private citizen, as an Associate Member of the Collectors Arms Dealers Association, and as a scholar and collector of historic firearms. I am concerned that errors in record keeping made by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) have endangered the rights of citizens, licensed collectors, licensed importers, and licensed dealers to possess, transfer, import, give away or collect historic firearms for lawful purposes. I am submitting this testimony because ATF has not corrected serious errors in the National Firearms Registration and Transfer Record (NFRTR), which ATF is required to maintain under the National Firearms Act (NFA) of 1934. I documented that ATF improperly destroyed firearm registration records and improperly registered firearms. Further, since at least 1981, thousands of NFA firearms have been registered for decades to people that ATF has stated are dead. I presented this evidence in testimony before this Subcommittee in 1997 and 1998. I am also submitting this testimony because these allegations were confirmed in 1998 in two audit reports issued by the Department of the Treasury Office of the Inspector General (IG). I would also like to point out that the law intends that the NFRTR records be accurate and reliable." |
13th January 2013, 07:15 PM | #577 |
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1. He'd never do that. 2. Okay but he's not currently doing it. 3. Okay but he's not currently technically doing it. 4. Okay but everyone does it. 5. He's doing it, we can't stop him, no point in complaining about it. 6. We all knew he was going to do it which... makes it okay somehow. 7. It's perfectly fine that's he's doing it. |
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13th January 2013, 07:35 PM | #578 |
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One field office of BATF attempted a crackdown on diversion of firearms to Mexico. Their attempt to follow the weapons and arrest the leaders of this ring instead of just the low level buyers failed. The small BATF team did not have the manpower of technical resources to pull off the operation.
A rational response would be to examine exactly why the investigation failed, fix those problems and try again. But that is contrary to the gun lobby agenda. They are using the failure as an excuse to stop any further attempt to impede the flow of guns to Mexico. So far that strategy is working. |
13th January 2013, 07:42 PM | #579 |
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I don't know if you realize how silly this sounds. In 1999, 14 years ago, right before George Bush even announced he was running for President, some guy testified before Congress and laid out a problem with the ATF. Because this has not been rectified, this proves that ATF is intrinsically a bad agency and that hiring a competent person to run it would have zero effect. This issue you've pointed out CANNOT BE FIXED, EVER, therefore the bureau should be scrapped and no director should be hired.
Do I have this correct? |
13th January 2013, 07:44 PM | #580 |
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13th January 2013, 07:56 PM | #581 |
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"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275 |
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13th January 2013, 09:09 PM | #582 |
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Well, since this is entirely inaccurate, we'll throw it in the round file with the other bull **** that you've posted.
It's not that they NEVER have a leader. That is inaccurate. Just because someone is not CONFIRMED by some elected fools, who most likely argue over what color mauve actually is, for decades. The same people who've labeled PIZZA as a goddamn vegetable. But, they've had some kind of director for all this time. They also have an assistant director. Plus, who knows how many other people in a position of leadership in the upper parts of the ATF. So, we'll dismiss your entire line of argument as incorrect. Perhaps come up with something better. Garbage in = Garbage out. |
13th January 2013, 11:16 PM | #583 |
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Rigid ideology is truly fascinating. The BATF, unlike the Presidency, or a fortune 500 company, or a sports team, functions perfectly well without a permanent, trusted leader. And yet issues persist because of some intrinsic flaw in the whole concept of the ATF, which has no relationship to the lack of a permanent director. And I'm the one peddling ********? Just awesome stuff here.
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14th January 2013, 04:30 AM | #584 |
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Thai: ... yeeah, no.
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Don't mind me. |
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14th January 2013, 08:39 AM | #585 |
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CNN is not noted for being unbiased or even truthful when it comes to reporting on gun issues, but his quote is not too hard to believe.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/14/politi...html?hpt=hp_t2
Quote:
I was wondering how long it would take the BATFE to get around to doing this. Getting finger printed for each application is just a time comsuming and money wasteful process if you ask me. Ranb |
14th January 2013, 09:50 AM | #586 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 09:55 AM | #587 |
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I think the trouble is - and this is where the SHTF on gun control threads - is that a lot of gun control advocates are just as, if not more, concerned with garden variety gun owners than criminals. My biggest beef since I first got involved in the debate is with the inability (or more likely unwillingness) to see beyond a preconceived stereotype.
Anti-gunners are frequently anti-gun-owner, and make no bones about it. When the opposition personalizes the debate right off the bat it doesn't make for civil discourse. |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 10:01 AM | #588 |
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14th January 2013, 10:10 AM | #589 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 10:13 AM | #590 |
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I must admit, many anti-gunners appear to take a ban all guns stance with their rhetoric.
I don't think they mean to, but it sounds that way when gun owners are to justify why they have guns and they come out with some pretty spurious reasons. |
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14th January 2013, 10:22 AM | #591 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 10:47 AM | #592 |
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Hunting, vermin control and sport, anyone who has issues with those reasons is IMO wrong.
Self defence is more complex. For a start I can see why many want a gun for defence as so many criminals, nuts and youths have them. But then the evidence as to a guns effectiveness in defence compared to the risks it poses is lacking. There are some pretty poor surveys which say DGUs are very common, over a million a year. Then anecdotes show genuinely successful instances of DGUs. But studies have found many reports of DGUs are not DGUs at all and were in fact instances such as gun fights where both sides claimed defence. Or someone felt threatened and despite alternatives used their gun as a first resort. Then the stand your ground law suggests you can do that. Overall I would say self defence is a valid reason to have a gun in a country with so many criminals who are armed. But there is a big cloud of doubt over how many deaths there are in the name of self defence that are actually the nuts with guns. |
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14th January 2013, 12:18 PM | #593 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 12:21 PM | #594 |
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14th January 2013, 12:30 PM | #595 |
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I'm not debating Diane Feinstein. If I were, and I called her a bitch to her face I would consider myself disqualified from that debate.
But calling her a bitch here, I don't see that as any different from calling Alex Jones a loon (which he is) or Wayne LaPierre a douchebag (again, which he is). |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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14th January 2013, 12:35 PM | #596 |
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To me the biggest argument for keeping a gun for self defense would be the defense of a home. Those are the kinds of scenarios where it is pretty cut and dry who the bad guy is, and a lot of times you would be defending yourself and family members as well (No, I don't need any links to stories of the wrong person being shot or being more likely to shoot a family member or any other nonsense. I am well aware that there are rare instances of such events out there).
Also, why do people spell "Defence" with a "c" rather than an "s"? |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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14th January 2013, 01:07 PM | #597 |
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Defensive Gun Use. It is a topic I have studied and the jury is well and truly out as to how many there are, how effective they are and how genuine self defence balances out with murder dressed up as defence, accidents and increased rates of successful suicide.
Stand your ground is flawed by the two gangs shooting at each other scenario. |
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14th January 2013, 01:09 PM | #598 |
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14th January 2013, 01:13 PM | #599 |
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I can see that in high crime, high risk situations. I don't see it in low crime areas low risk situations, but I accept with so many guns in the wrong hands why so many Americans feel the need for guns for self defence.
IMO there has not been sufficient recording and study of actual instances of self defence to see if the use of a gun is fully justified.
Quote:
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14th January 2013, 01:17 PM | #600 |
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Looks like the one on top has a magazine, thus needs less reloading. Also, the muzzle shroud makes it less likely for a spree killer to burn his hands. The pistol grip makes it more comfortable for the spree killer to shoot. thaiboxerken |
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