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28th December 2012, 12:19 PM | #41 |
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Thank you for that. I'm approaching it with an underlying question: how can future shootings like this be prevented while preserving my ability to purchase and responsibly enjoy an AR-15 (not my first choice, but I'll use it as an example since it's common enough).
Regarding emotion, I just call it as I see it - before Dec. 14th was out people were already calling for bans on "assault weapons" (at a point when it was being reported that Lanza had used handguns), saying that people who owned them had blood on their hands, etc. If that's not emotion, I don't know what is. The barrage of "why do you need that"s and general tone of "I would never even touch those so anybody who wants one is a lunatic so they should be banned" made me cringe. For what it's worth, the opposite side makes me cringe as well with some things. From what I've seen in the multiple threads after Sandy Hook, nobody on my side says there should be nothing done. I think there is room for compromise. But I do think it's accurate that when proposals are made by gun supporters and met by responses that basically say, "no, not good enough, you need to get rid of them", that it's emotion speaking. ETA: I am addressing it, even though I consider the responses I'm facing to be emotional. I don't think the emotion is unwarranted either. I should mention that personally, I don't think there should be any gun control. Zero. But that's in a perfect world, in which monsters don't shoot up school rooms. I'm just trying to find the best possible solution. |
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28th December 2012, 12:36 PM | #42 |
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I think perhaps Polaris' 'useless' comment might have been in reference to the fact that Canada had enacted similar laws with no reduction with respect to the criminal use of firearms. Firearm registration, prohibitions based on cosmetics and magazine capacity limits had zero practical impact because those with criminal intent simply opted not to comply.
However, if the reason for these controls and prohibitions was to induce a false sense of increased public security in the ill-informed or willfully ignorant by placing restrictions on those without criminal intent then we must concede that these laws were indeed most certainly effective... |
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28th December 2012, 12:48 PM | #43 |
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28th December 2012, 12:53 PM | #44 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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28th December 2012, 01:11 PM | #45 |
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Who is "we" and when did they authorize you to speak for them? I didn't address this point because it sounds ridiculous to me. I bet he also sped on his way from the murder of his mother. Why are all the anti-gun people ignoring the SPEEDING???
The fact is that the guns were at his disposal legally. Nancy Lanza did not break any laws, and until he went on his murder spree, neither had Adam. That she placed such deadly tools in the close proximity of Adam Lanza is a mistake that cost her and dozens of others their lives. Had she not been a paranoid "gun enthusiast" she'd be alive right now. If more people made the decision not to become "gun enthusiasts" then the opportunity to go on murder sprees would diminish. This seems irrefutable to me. In Japan, where guns are banned, they have some years with just TWO gun homicides. In the U.S., 587 people are killed every year just from accidental gun discharges. So obviously, banning guns works in other places. The question is how we best get to a place where we can boast of such low numbers as well. And the answer is not more guns, that's for sure. |
28th December 2012, 01:20 PM | #46 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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28th December 2012, 01:40 PM | #47 |
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28th December 2012, 01:44 PM | #48 |
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"There's vastly more truth to be found in rocks than in holy books. Rocks are far superior, in fact, because you can DEMONSTRATE the truth found in rocks. Plus, they're pretty. Holy books are just heavy." - Dinwar "Let your ears hear this beautiful song that's hiding underneath the sound," Ed Kowalczyk. |
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28th December 2012, 02:12 PM | #49 |
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Is Feinstein the one who thinks a barrel shroud is "the shoulder thing that goes up"?
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28th December 2012, 02:22 PM | #50 |
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28th December 2012, 02:41 PM | #51 |
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Speculation.
Her son had mental issues. Had he gone off the rails with no gun handy, he could have dispatched her with a knife or a bat. And had she been diagnosed as clinically paranoid, or is that just a handy term to smear her posthumously. If the latter, pretty shameful of you. |
28th December 2012, 03:02 PM | #52 |
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Yeah, but if he'd killed her with a bat, what would have happened to the school kids? And as for her paranoia, she was a "doomsday prepper" who was hoarding food and weapons for the coming societal collapse. Excuse me for prying, but is that not paranoid thinking where you come from?
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28th December 2012, 03:43 PM | #53 |
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Well we know from the media reports that Nancy Lanza did have some sort of firearms storage cabinet or safe. We also know that Adam Lanza attempted to purchase a firearm of his own prior to the murders. Additionally, it was reported that Nancy Lanza had become increasingly concerned reference Adam Lanza's apparently deteriorating mental condition.
Taking these points into consideration, including the fact that Nancy Lanza was murdered by being shot in the face while she slept, I don't think that it's unreasonable to suggest that the firearms used might have been securely stored and that Adam Lanza may have successfully defeated any security safeguards in that respect. What I don't understand is why there hasn't been any police comments regarding how Adam Lanza physically acquired the guns. I would have thought that that would have been one of the first determinations made during the initial investigation. Has anyone else heard anything about how and if the guns were stored??? |
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28th December 2012, 05:04 PM | #54 |
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Well, a few things.
1- We don't know how Adam got the guns. If he held his mother a knife point, or threatened her in some way to compel her to give him the guns, then no, he did not legally get them. You and I don't know how he got the guns. To assume she let her kids have open access to the guns, is wrong. 2- If she did in fact allow Adam access to the guns, and he in fact did have mental health issues that were known to her, she violated the law. 3- He committed no less than 5 different firearm laws before even arriving at the school. So, no your entire premise is wrong. So sit there in your wrongness and be wrong. |
28th December 2012, 05:13 PM | #55 |
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She took the kids shooting, so yes, she gave Adam access to the guns prior to the murders. I'm not saying she gave him the guns that day. I'm saying she taught him how to shoot them.
Quote:
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28th December 2012, 05:49 PM | #56 | |||
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Some people consider guns to be their babies.
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28th December 2012, 05:51 PM | #57 |
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I was only responding to your assertion she would be alive today but for the guns. Not necessarily the case.
Quote:
Paranoid has a specific meaning, and I can't say whether she was or wasn't. It's just that it seems a bit too easy to label a dead victim with a derogatory label. |
28th December 2012, 05:56 PM | #58 |
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28th December 2012, 06:16 PM | #59 | |||
Woof!
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I was wrong about Feinstein. It was Carolyn McCarthy
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28th December 2012, 06:20 PM | #60 |
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Don't panic - this is blueskying at it's best.
Even if the bill passed in the senate, there's little chance of it surviving congress intact. My best swag would be that if the portion of the bill requiring NFA registration were to stand, it would have to include an amnesty period for registration similar to '68 or the (iirc) ten year or so amnesty to register USAS-12's and street sweepers as DD's You are correct about CLEO sign-offs, it's a major problem in some areas. The sign-off is only intended to be a local ID verification that isn't really as important in today's world as it was from 1934 - pretty easy to determine ID now through NICS. |
28th December 2012, 08:00 PM | #61 |
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Not panicking but venting instead.
I have heard that people who legally owned guns that were put into the NFA registry were allowed to register them on the ATF form 4 without paying the $200 tax; the street sweepers were given as an example. Not sure if it is true though. I remember back in 1994 I was underway on my submarine the USS Cavalla. We got news bulletins posted in the passageway every few days that updated the current events including passage of the AWB. It sucked that bills were being passed and I could not communicate with my representatives while under the sea. Ranb |
28th December 2012, 08:04 PM | #62 |
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Way to ignore the point.
Making laws that have an affect on everyone that owns guns, based on EMOTIONS, which may be against the law, and possibly useless, then it becomes a useless conclusion. But, you're welcome to show me a law, that has been enacted based on emotions, that is a successful law. Here in the US of course. |
28th December 2012, 08:15 PM | #63 |
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We is me too. DGM is welcome to speak for me WRT: guns at any time.
Why is it ridiculous? Because it sounds like it? A thief steals a gun. What is to prevent him from firing that gun? Laws? Oh, right, he's already committed a felony (armed burglary is, in most places, punishable by life in prison), so what's going to stop him? Proof? Actually, if she gave access to her mentally ill son, it's quite possible she did. Actually, many laws were broken before he fired the first round. But, of course, you've been told this quite a few times, and you ignore it. Proof of this hilited claim? And you've got proof of this? I mean, empirical data showing this? I bet you don't. And how many others? How many suicides? How many other acts of violence? But yet, there are plenty of ways to get to that goal, without infringing on my rights, or at the very least, a reasonable amount. |
28th December 2012, 08:18 PM | #64 | |||
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No, that was Rep. McCarthy from NY.
Here's the video BTW. HILARIOUS!!
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28th December 2012, 08:40 PM | #65 |
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28th December 2012, 08:42 PM | #66 |
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Ok, fair enough.
18 U.S.C. § 922 Wow, talk about being disrespectful. Not surprised though. Here's your claim. "Up until that moment, no laws were broken, were they?" To which I answered, yes. Of course. Do I need to explain that murder, is illegal? If the guns were secured in some way (I don't know, but I am betting yes) and he took them, that's grand theft of a firearm, not just a state crime, but a federal crime. Once he killed his mother, he's shown he has no disregard for any law. He violated so many state and federal laws after that moment, it's hard to start to count them. Do you really need a link to a law about not stealing things? I'm not going to respond to this, for risk of violating the MA. However, I will say that I am certainly disturbed by some wacko killing 20 innocent kids, and 6 innocent adults, and certainly shed quite a few tears over it. So, your assumption is wrong. |
28th December 2012, 11:01 PM | #67 |
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Psycho that wants to shoot up a school would have the gumption to jump through these legal hoops, especially if they have no prior history. Someone wanting to collect guns for recreational purposes is going to be less likely to.
Brilliant piece of legislation, It comes down to what most anti weapon legislation does. Punishing collectors for the crimes of psychopaths because the collectors are the easier targets, and an easier political billboard. A stream of folks complaining about how they can't get a certain gun is going to give the anti weapon crowd the warm fuzzies, even if these people who want to hurt folks will just jump through the hoops, or acquire the weapons illegally. The anti gun, hell, the anti weapon crowd, needs to stop punishing collectors for the crimes of maniacs, and stop feeling so self congratulatory whenever they manage to crap on the parade of the collectors. Collectors are the folks you turn to , to pay for the misuse of weapons, because when you have to think that there is no real face of spree killings, no group to watch out for and regulate , you realize that is a rather scary alternative to the safe fantasy that by making it a hassle to own weapons, you can stop their being used for crimes. |
29th December 2012, 05:13 AM | #68 |
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It will result in a lot of abuses because some beaurocrat misinterprets it. It serves no other purpose than to harrass people who want to posess more than a wall-hanger or sporting piece.
Feinstein should concentrate on the social welfare and ecconomic issues she understands and let people who know something about arms and their uses handle this. |
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29th December 2012, 05:21 AM | #69 |
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Nobody is arguing that bat **** crazy people should not be allowed to have guns. I just don't see anything in any of the proposed laws that would make it easier to weed those people out. Banning rifles with a thumb hole in the stock or a bayonet lug will sure help you identifying a drooling paranoid, won't it?
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29th December 2012, 06:45 AM | #70 |
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I would be one, so I suppose I authorized it. You missed Ranb's post #15, I'm sure he also noticed. Two, would be "we".
Back to the dodging I see. Do you agree or disagree that these law would have not prevented this tragedy? So, your plan is to make them magically disappear with these new laws? I'm reasonable sure that's what the government is hoping you'll believe. |
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29th December 2012, 07:06 AM | #71 |
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29th December 2012, 07:20 AM | #72 |
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29th December 2012, 07:31 AM | #73 |
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An AR-10, Good for target shooting or hunting large game like elk. I would have a 10 round mag in there, but they are all out of stock at the moment. AR-15 in 458 socom. Also good for large game, makes less noise then the 308 above. 300 whisper. Like shooting a less noisy 30-30 and more accurate, good for shooting competitions and hunting game up to the size of deer My national match AR for service rifle competitions. I only speak for myself, but these are only like the Bushmaster in that they are DI operated and share the same lower receiver design. Ranb |
29th December 2012, 07:39 AM | #74 |
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Speaking for myself only; but this tragedy has affected me emotionally more than anything else since 9/11. How could 20 kids murdered not do that to anyone?
But now we have politicians exploiting this mess to promote a gun bill that would have probably done nothing to prevent the Sandy Hook shootings and will probably do little or nothing to prevent another one. This is what some people call dancing in the blood of victims. Feinstein is not stupid, but she is behaving like Americans are. No doubt the legislative intent of her new AWB will say it is to prevent crime, just like the last one. But of course it will hardly affect crime at all. She will still expect us to lap it up like dogs. Ranb |
29th December 2012, 08:11 AM | #75 |
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Actually, if a looney-tune has a bayonette fixed when he runs out of ammo, it would seem to me that he might not even bother to re-load, just go on a stabbing rampage. As the homicidal rampages in China would indicate, this actually improves the chances that victims would survive.
It also increases the chances that some bad mofo will take that weapon away and make the thug eat it. |
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29th December 2012, 08:12 AM | #76 |
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My Governor waited for months after the Aurora shooting to start the discussion on gun control. An article about his speech was on the front page of the Denver Post the morning of the Sandy Hook shootings.
Reality is that these events will keep happening as long as society keeps pandering to the NRA and the so called "collectors". |
29th December 2012, 08:15 AM | #77 |
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What does "collectors" mean as opposed to collectors?
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29th December 2012, 08:21 AM | #78 |
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29th December 2012, 08:50 AM | #79 |
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But what do the quotes actually mean? It means I am not actually a collector? The common definition of a collector is someone who collects something in particular.
So if my ar-15's were original 1950's era with the Bakelite furniture, A1 sights, no forward assist and the skimpy barrel I would be worthy in your eyes of calling myself a collector without the demeaning quotes? Do you insult others who collect plebeian items or is it just guns? Ranb |
29th December 2012, 08:58 AM | #80 |
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